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Match Up Export: ZSS

Sage JoWii

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Overview:
Zero Suit Samus is Samus without her power suit, but is a completely different character. She has a large amount of range, and her recovery is better than you'd think. Her air game rivals your own, and it can be a tough matchup to handle.


Pros+Cons:
+Powerful air game, stronger than kirby’s.
+Very hard to gimp, and can gimp us if we’re not careful.

-Mid-range game is easily beaten by slowly walking forward and powershielding.
-Dash attack and paralyzer shot (except fully charged) both go over a crouching Kirby.

Watch out for:

Dsmash – Getting hit by a Dsmash guarantees that ZSS can land a kill move on you. Be cautious at high %’s. If you’re in the middle of the stage and she hits you, DI up and get ready to momentum cancel. If you’re on the edge and she hits you, better luck on your next stock. Dsmash also leads into combos. 2 examples:

Her Air Game – ZSS’ aerials are generally longer-ranged and more powerful than yours. Watch out for the killing uair, bair and fair, and the dair which spikes a little and is a stall-then-fall. Plasma wire will always beat or clash with dair, and drags stone below her without hitting her.

Her Uair – It’s so good it needed its own paragraph. ZSS’ Uair is the rough equivalent of our bair; it combos into itself and it can kill. Note that her combo starters are all hard to hit with (Dthrow, dtilt and utilt), but that you will get hit by them eventually and you will take on a bunch of %.

Down B – It works as a surprisingly good recovery attack, has invincibility in the beginning and can spike you if you’re not careful. DON’T APPROACH FROM UNDER HER. DON’T DO IT.

How to Win:

Powershield –Powershielding pretty much wrecks ZSS’ game. Since her grab is so laggy, just walk forward slowly while perfect shielding what she throws at you. If you see the grab coming, spotdodge and punish.

Powershield the Jab – If ZSS jabs you (you may need to DI towards the ground), hold shield to powershield the third hit. Get prepared to punish, preferably with a Dthrow.

Learn to Catch the Armor – If you’ve seen some matches of ZSS, the armor does a hell of a lot of damage if they use it right. Learn to catch the armor, then throw it offstage. SH->Dthrow->Uair is a good way to keep the armor.

Inhale the Down B – (situational) If you inhale her and she escapes in midair, you have a guaranteed footstool on her. Make sure to start the inhale as she starts the down b or you will be hit by the sex kick if she pulls it out. She doesn’t get her down b back, so she has her double jump (maybe) and her upb. The footstool stun should last long enough to edgehog her, but you can always ff dair->footstool if it won’t. Be careful, as she can footstool out of her down b which is a special footstool, gives her lots of horizontal distance, she can do the same footstool out of that AND it doesn't shorten the height of her normal footstool.


Spit out or Swallow?
This is really your choice. Spitting out allows you to inhale her out of her down b for a guaranteed footstool, but this is situational. Paralyzer gives you a mid-range projectile, though it isn't that great. It all depends on what you feel most comfortable with.


What NOT to do:

Take Her to the Air – ZSS has better airspeed and aerial attacks than us. Don’t do it.

Rush In – Rush in and you're asking for a side b to the feet. Slowly walk in while powershielding to approach.

Edgecamp Her – If you get hit with a dsmash while edgcamping her, she can use a kill move and you will die. If you get hit with a dsmash at non-kill %'s, you will eat damage.


Stages (in order
of priority):
Jungle Japes – Uair is neutralized as a killing move and her horizontal kill moves are hard to land. You can live to extremely high %'s with good DI. If it's not banned, pick it.

Frigate Orpheon– The lack of a ledge on the left side helps you more than you'd expect, and ZSS is bad in general on this stage. Ninja Spiking on the right side of the first transformation is a situational and unknown trick that could net you a kill. Pick it if they ban JJ.

PTAD– If Frigate is fun to take ZSS to then PTAD should be a blast because there's no ledges on the main platform!!


Brinstar– Brinstar limits the use our ground game can be put to and our air game is inferior to ZSS’. The exact combination you DON'T want.


Synopsis:
Zero Suit Samus is a hard matchup, but get a few things down and it won’t be too difficult. Approach by perfect shielding what she throws at you and spotdodging her grab and punishing it. Stay out of the air when you can; your air game is inferior to hers. If you can inhale her out of her down b, do it, as you have a guaranteed footstool on her out of it. Watch out for Dsmash; it leads into all her KO moves. Don’t camp her on the edge of a stage; if you get hit by dsmash, better luck on your next stock.


Featured Video of how to play this match-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3ClFeXcKj8&feature=related
 

fromundaman

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I just want to add that we can duck her Usmash, Utilt (I think), Ftilt (unless angled down), DASH ATTACK (Most important one in my experience since it takes her 'good mixup approach/combo starter' and, when ducked, makes it a move that puts her behind us with lag, AKA Utilt/pivot grab position.), her grab, and certain parts of her side B (basically, anywhere so long as the ball at the end doesn't touch you. Basically, it has to be misspaced.), and her taser.
 

Nefarious B

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I played t1mmy recently, I beat him 2-1 in pools Kirby vs ZS then lost 2-? in bracket vs his MK. I personally think he's a much smarter player than I am, and I believe that Kirby's poor matchup with ZS is the main reason I was able to beat him the first time.

What I did mostly was:

jab everytime he was close, a lot of times OOS as well. it's a frame 1 punisher, and actually completes against kirby which is a godsend.

dsmash. it's large hitbox was great because walking away and pivot dsmashing seemed to make spacing aerials very difficult

Avoided fsmash like the plague. I know that around 80-90% he wants the fsmash low percent kill. I made sure to be super careful on landings basically. I found that if I was playing carefully, he only landed fsmash on me out of a dtilt
 
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This match-up is bad for Kirby, like Nefariouis said. It's at best 4/6 and probably worse.

The OP mostly sums up why, but is missing one thing: ZSS has a one-frame escape option on Kirby that is guaranteed out of shield (even pivoting). It beats most of Kirby's approaches and is brutal AA. As a result ZSS' usually poor ground game becomes very very good, so Kirby has to compete with a great ground game and an air game that he can't compete with either.

ZSS' mid-range spacing game is annoying for Kirby and he can't really approach her straight-up. He has to fake her out to even get close.

Kirby's kill options are really easy to avoid on the ground.

Kirby gets a +1 in that many dash attack follow-ups don't work because Kirby's weird hitstun animation ducks under them. Kirby can also duck under dash attack if ZSS uses it predictably.

Kirby might also have an advantage off-stage and may be able to gimp ZSS easily but I only theorize this as I've never had a Kirby player really try to abuse it correctly.

In the air, ZSS hands down. On the ground, it's closer, although ZSS has the edge because of jab and because her mid-range spacing game kills Kirby's approaches. Dsmash is completely safe because it ends really fast, is safe on shield, and you can jab afterward (like Peach can jab after a ff aerial to make it safe). Off-stage, Kirby wins but ZSS should usually be able to make it back to the stage.

Kirby should utilize his tilts, as they are fast and powerful in this match-up. He should probably also learn to utilize all of his gimmicks, such as inhailing down-b, as they have the potential to equalize this poor match-up.

7/3 ZSS, imo.
 

t!MmY

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Yeah, this match-up has a lot of tough challenges for Kirby. Mostly it's trying to catch ZSS with any noteworthy attack since she moves fast, attacks from any distance, has great aerial attacks, and very quick close-rage options. Dashing in and Shielding works, but it can become predictable since that's almost exclusively what Kirby can do in this match-up. ZSS can simply throw out attacks as Kirby approaches and then reposition herself. Just watch out for those grab mix-ups she can throw out (but probably won't if you display any chance at avoiding it).

Pokemon Stadium 1 is also a viable counterpick on ZSS. Of course it's a good Kirby stage in general, but this is the best place for getting Ninja Spikes. Also the stage transformations generally hurt her spacing game enough to give Kirby a chance to move in for an attack.
 

A1lion835

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Supermodel from Paris, I remember you were knowledgeable from the last discussion, but can't Kirby DI the jab down and shield it? It doesn't change the whole flow of the matchup, but making sure all the info is correct is important. On the other hand, it's been so long since I did any serious Brawl stuff that my info is wrong.

The summary is wrong about the NS on Frigate Orpheon: it's on the left side of the stage, not the right.
 

fromundaman

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I don't understand, when would you tech the jab? Do you mean the 3rd hit that they won't use because you can buffer a shield? I don't play ZSS, but I'm pretty sure they'll jab cancel every time, since that works.
 
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Supermodel from Paris, I remember you were knowledgeable from the last discussion, but can't Kirby DI the jab down and shield it? It doesn't change the whole flow of the matchup, but making sure all the info is correct is important. On the other hand, it's been so long since I did any serious Brawl stuff that my info is wrong.

The summary is wrong about the NS on Frigate Orpheon: it's on the left side of the stage, not the right.
You can SDI down and shield it, which is a little less practical but yes it is possible.
 

Lord Viper

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7/3 is 100% correct.
You can't approach, it's as simple as that. The only thing Kirby has here is mixups.
With that ratio, Zero Suit Samus is harder than Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Snake, Marth, (maybe), even Mr. Game & Watch?! Is this match up as hard as people say it is... do people still have problems with Zero Suit Samus? =/

I'll go with small disadvantage just because I haven't played the best Zero Suit Samus main yet. My though is small advantage over all.
 

Triple R

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There is no way I agree with 7/3 ZSS. It isn't that hard to get in. I would personally go a small disadvantage. But admittadly I've only really played a local ZSS.
 

t!MmY

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I also do not think this is THAT bad of a match-up for Kirby. It's more of a moderate disadvantage than a hard 70-30 type of match-up.

* Awesome ZSS Match-up Tip *
Hold down on the control stick when ZSS is jabbing. This will move Kirby to the ground and you can D-tilt her while the third Jab goes over Kirby's head.
 

Eagleye893

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@timmy's comment:

I really thought that one could do that. It LOOKs like you can duck under the jab. good confirmation, dood.

I would say the ability to duck under several of her abilities makes Kirby have a slight better time, but the range that zss has and the speed that she has can often overpower Kirby a lot. That's why I go ness vs zss. Also, ness' magnet helps absorbing stuff.
 

Sage JoWii

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I'll go ahead and comment this:

Yes, ZSS is a hard MU for Kirby. Is it unwinnable? Hell no. Is it even? Not close. It's a simple disadvantage MU.

Kirby has a hard time approaching, is lightweight for early KOs and isn't too fast. ZSS has a horrible recovery, can be ducked under for certain attacks and is lightweight as well.

Obviously strike FD, Battle, and SV. CP to Frigate OR THE NEW PTAD!!! No edges means as soon as that ***** is off stage it's **** time.

6/4 ZSS.
 

t!MmY

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Kirby can duck the start of her S-Special, but the tip of it when it 'zaps' has a much larger hitbox and will catch Kirby when he's ducking. However, since Kirby doesn't get hit until that final, large hitbox comes out, you're technically getting more time to respond to the attack which makes Shielding/Perfect Shielding the attack much easier. From there, you can Jump-Cancel your shield into an Aerial Attack if you're close enough to hit, or you could Shield Grab or just drop your shield and move in for something else.

Also, do not try to beat out ZSS's U-air. Nothing Kirby has comes out fast enough to compete with it as far as speed goes, especially because Kirby will usually be overhead where only his D-air is a feasible move. Oh, and guess what, the U-air out-prioritizes the D-air, so if you predict and start up your D-air early enough all you're doing is making it easier for ZSS to hit you with an U-air. Basically only the Stone is gonna get through the U-air, and that's a far cry from being useful against anything but the lowliest of noobs.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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With that ratio, Zero Suit Samus is harder than Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Snake, Marth, (maybe), even Mr. Game & Watch?! Is this match up as hard as people say it is... do people still have problems with Zero Suit Samus? =/

I'll go with small disadvantage just because I haven't played the best Zero Suit Samus main yet. My though is small advantage over all.
No, those characters just all (possibly) **** you just as bad.

If you Chu plays 100 games vs Nick's ZSS, I bet Nick wins at least 80 of them. Ofcourse they will be close sometimes, but in the end ZSS wins. That would make for 80/20, but the Smash community isn't used to having ratio's reflect ACTUAL OUTCOME OF THE MATCH, rather the ADVANTAGE OF A CHARACTER IN A MATCH, which is absolute utter bull****.

Ohwell, 70/30. Approach sideways get beat by dsmash, anything else get uaired. That's literally it, you can't approach.
 

Lord Viper

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The outcome depends on the person using the character rather than character vs character. I still find it hard to believe it's a huge disadvantage, (or a disadvantage), because of two of her key attacks. However, my options doesn't matter because I haven't played anyone good enough to change my thoughts.
 

#HBC | J

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Kirby has a hard time approaching, is lightweight for early KOs and isn't too fast. ZSS has a horrible recovery, can be ducked under for certain attacks and is lightweight as well.
Actually ZSS does not have a horrid recovery. Yes it is a tether but it has huge range in both SideB and UpB plus she can increase her DJ with UpB and she still has another jump in DownB which is also a spike and can Flipstool. ( sorry to nitpick ya ^^" )

I personally hate Kirby but that's only because he's my worst personal MU. ZSS wins though. =P
 
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A small correction: 70/30 is not unwinnable. 70/30 means "this match-up will suck and you are probably going to lose" but it isn't necessarily "unwinnable." 6/4 means "you have to work a little harder for the win."

Smashboards posters have a habit of exaggerating the meaning of certain match-up ratios. When I say a match-up is 6/4 I mean a slight advantage, and when I say something like 7/3 I mean a harder advantage but not an unwinnable match-up, which is basically what Melee players have used for a long time and what most fighting game communities have used.

Anyway, Kirby is definitely a 7/3 match-up and not a 6/4. The advantage is more than slight. Kirby has to work very hard to win and ZSS has an answer to almost everything Kirby has.

And ZSS doesn't have a horrible recovery. ;) I still think Kirby wins off-stage though.
 

Sage JoWii

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For starters we're in the Kirby boards, we try not to put ratios because that detracts from intelligent discussion. It's either slight disadvantage, disadvantage or large disadvantage.

Second, I've personally had problems with ZSS but I know it's just a disadvantage and it's beatable with enough patiences to drag the speed of the match down to Kirby's speed. Even with the ONE good ZSS post from Supermodel from Paris on the first page (thanks for your input) I still can't see this matchup as being a large disadvantage with the evidence given. If you want a reference point go read the GW summary to see a character that shuts Kirby down. A 'disadvantage' MU is how this looks because Kirby still has offstage game and can powershield pretty much everything ZSS can do effectively bringing the game to a snail pace, bait and wait game. I'd like input from Kewkky and Y.b.M, both guys main both characters before any changes to the ratio of this MU.
/end actually trying to assist this export

Lastly, Xonar you can stop posting; I think we all get that 'Kirby can't approach. 100/0' is what you want us to realize.
/end slight sarcasm.
 

Kewkky

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A small correction: 70/30 is not unwinnable. 70/30 means "this match-up will suck and you are probably going to lose" but it isn't necessarily "unwinnable." 6/4 means "you have to work a little harder for the win."
That would be true... If all posters would agree to that line of reasoning. As I see it, the vast VAST majority of posters in SWF only see these numbers:

50:50 = Even
55:45/45:55 = Fairly even, slight disadvantage on one side
60:40/40:60 = Disadvantage, one side has to work harder to win.
65:35/35:65 = Counter, one side has a matchup-breaking trick or two.
70:30/30:70 = Hard counter, one side should be changing his character.

No one even talks about any other numbers after that, except the bottom tiers, when other characters around the board have worse matchups than those. I mean, what's the difference between 80:20, 90:10, and 100:0 (and the X5:Y5 variations of these)? Barely anyone thinks about it when they make MU ratios, they just use the definitions I listed above to cover all of their ratios, and those who DO think about it (points at SFP) are so small in number that no one wants to agree with them.

I've got your line of reasoning to the MU ratios, SFP. *applauds*


This MU is 30:70 for us using OUR line of reasoning, as in clear disadvantage... But using the ratios everyone else does, it's 40:60.


@ MU Discussion:
I don't have experience in this MU, since I'm the only ZSS mainer, and Kirby mainer, here in PR. I got no one to practice this with... And when I played against Snakeee in USA, all he used was MK and never brought out his ZSS (i won all of the matches though)... SO I'm just gonna do some theory fighting in here, from what I know about both characters.

1) Pieces. THROW THEM OFFSTAGE IMMEDIATELY. These things are freakin' ********. Kirby being a lightweight, not having a glidetoss, not having a decent dash attack to pick up pieces with, and having crap running speed, means they'll be knocking us far and wide with little to no effort. A ZSS that dominates her item game will **** a stock off of us before we have a chance to take them ALL away. I know because I've done it to many different players and many different characters before I told them to ALWAYS throw my pieces offstage. (probably why I barely use her in tourneys, I always help out people around here by telling them what ***** ZSS during our friendlies... Which is good, cuz then I use Kirby instead and surprise them!)

2) ZSS's aerials. We can't beat her aerials with ours, so when she's in the air, stay on the ground. She has fast aerials with good killpower on all of them (save Dair, which I use as a get-to-the-stage-ASAP-but-auto-cancel-it-from-super-high-first [GTTSABACIFSHF] move). If we're on the ground and she's in the air, it means that she's either gonna hit our shields, or space a sideB to keep us at bay. If she's recovering from high, trace her trajectory and grab her out of whatever she does, or charge a dsmash if you think she's gonna airdodge.

3) ZSS's ground game. Watch out for her spaced dsmashes, and space all of your tilts. HINT! They're all worth using in this MU. If you bair, she's probably gonna retaliate with a jab OoS, or if you're high enough, an uair OoS. If you can retreat shbairs, go for it, it's 100% safe. As approaches, like always, shielddashing is still one of our best assets. If she spaces a sideB to keep us at bay since we don't have huge disjoints or projectiles, run in and shield, then ftilt OoS. You don't have enough time to run in and grab, but I believe an ftilt should be able to hit her if you're close enough as the explosion from her sideB knocks you back. Dtilts are nice for spacing whenever she's not dsmashing our grounded spacing game, and utilt is great for when we shielded a grounded attack of hers (fast, combos into itself, combos into bair). If we're chaining utilts, get ready to start tracing her trajectory, because she might just downB out of our chains if you're too slow or she SDI's them well enough. Run at her and shieldgrab whatever she does, hell, you can RAR a bair if you successfully follow her and she doesn't stick her leg out to kill us.

4) ZSS's recovery. It's both good and bad, it depends if she DI's well or not. If she didn't DI high, just sit around the ledge and hang out there for a bit. Even if she upB's us, we can still recover due to our 5 jumps and vertical upB. She might do some upB boosts to gain height and then downB footstool us to recover, but you can bair her if she does. Bair her, then dair because if we miss the bair, she's gonna latch onto the ledge and she's not invincible until she grabs it (free spike if we pull this off successfully). You could also possibly wavebounce a ledgehopped inhale if she's about to downB footstool you (I'm still working around with inhale tricks and making it a part of my game, so don't trust me on this yet)... if she DI's high, follow her landing trajectory like how I explained before: shieldgrab whatever she does, or charge a dsmash to hit her out of an airdodge if your opponent has that habit.

5) ZSS's edgeguarding. It doesn't really matter for Kirby. Just sweetspot the ledge from as low as possible to avoid her dsmash spike, and if you get dsmashed, get ready to DI against the stage and tech the wall. Be hesitant about upB'ing to the ledge, as I've gaught MANY characters with her dsmash who
don't sweetspot the ledge, which means a free kill every single time, even at low %s. If you ran out of jumps and only have your upB, and are blow the stage, try and measure the distance for you to sweetspot the ledge from as low as possible so you don't get hit with her dsmash.

6) Killing moves. Kirby's common kill moves should be bair, fsmash, dsmash, and uthrow. ZSS's common kill moves should be uair, bair, sideB (if you fail at shielding it), and dsmash followups. We can also inhale>footstool her, but the chances that we'll get the inhale in, as far as I can think of, are pretty low. Not a Snake/Marth/MK low, but low nonetheless.


And just like I said before, I personally believe it's just a normal disadvantage. A clear disadvantage, but nothing more and nothing less from what I can make out, at the highest levels of play.
 

Snakeee

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Huh, when did I play you? If I knew you were from outside the U.S., I'd have given you a serious set against whomever you wanted :(
 

Kewkky

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Huh, when did I play you? If I knew you were from outside the U.S., I'd have given you a serious set against whomever you wanted :(
You played me at Pound4. You used MK through all of our matches, then Seibrik and Pierce walked in and asked me "how did you get so good at fighting MK?". Then I heard that you sorta dropped ZSS and were looking around for a better main, starting with MK.
 

Triple R

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You could also possibly wavebounce a ledgehopped inhale if she's about to downB footstool you (I'm still working around with inhale tricks and making it a part of my game, so don't trust me on this yet)...
lol, that's pretty funny because I've been trying to mess with that too. Can't figure out that many uses, but I guess you could try to snag a snake that thinks he can get above you fast enough with his up b.
 

Tiersie

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This is not 70-30. Not in a long LOONG time.

Something that I've noticed is that a lot of zss' like to get back on stage with DownB after she has grabbed the ledge. This can be baired on reaction before the spike comes out. It will but her in a horrible place and you might be able to capitalize on her either having to downB again or having to use her 2nd jump.
 

t!MmY

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...you might be able to capitalize on her either having to downB again or having to use her 2nd jump.
Tiersie, ZSS cannot D-special again if she gets hit after using it. So B-airing her out of D-special will let you edgehog her tether most of the time. :D
 

Sage JoWii

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OP updated w/ a video @ the bottom of how this MU is played in case someone needs visual reference.
 
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