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Technical things?

4 Aces

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
892
Yup. And its a bad habit almost every Marth has. Even the great ones. Marth is such a % dependent character that people pummel while they look at their opponent's % to start up the chainthrow. Trouble is, against smart people, 1 pummel at early % (up to mid teens usually) means a grab release. One of the hardest things about playing Marth is keeping track of not only your own % but your opponent's -- its not like Fox where you want to pretty much nair no matter what the situation is; and pummeling is generally a sign that you aren't properly keeping track of the %s like you should be.

Generally watch Marth videos and ask yourself "why did that CG stop prematurely?" Despite how often people say Marth should 0-death off grabs, it rarely happens, and most grabs, even among the highest level Marths, lead to marginal % gain. Its usually because of the bad habits of the Marth player, whether it be pummeling, utilting too early, misreading a percent, gambling with a dthrow fsmash, JC during a standing chaingrab (also one of the worst habits Marths have; don't jump cancel when you stand still and grab for the chainthrow. if a Fox is at 0% and you throw him up, just press Z. not jump+Z), etc. Minimize those habits and the combo game becomes more consistent.
Thanks. Does jc grabbing take that many more frames than simply standing and grabbing?
 

makoforce

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
705
Location
Inkster,Michigan
why do i get trashed for using the control stick the X and Y buttons i use for Wave dashing
and JC grabbing because of the jump and grab but the purpose of JC grabbing is because dash grabbing is too laggy
 

booshk

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
1,104
why do i get trashed for using the control stick the X and Y buttons i use for Wave dashing
and JC grabbing because of the jump and grab but the purpose of JC grabbing is because dash grabbing is too laggy
.......what
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
What percent should I start doing pivot grabs during my chaingrab on Falco? I've kinda got the feeling down for Fox, but I often let the Falco player jump out.

The problem could be that I dash too far before pivoting, or that I start the dash late, but I just want to be sure of the percentage window I should be looking for.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
What percent should I start doing pivot grabs during my chaingrab on Falco? I've kinda got the feeling down for Fox, but I often let the Falco player jump out.

The problem could be that I dash too far before pivoting, or that I start the dash late, but I just want to be sure of the percentage window I should be looking for.
I do it around 26ish.
 

NTMR

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
8
Location
Raleigh, NC
This thread is amazing, learning so much right now.
Props to Crimson Blur for writing up that huge list of stuff, highlighted a lot of stuff I need to work on, now I can just refer to it whenever.

One thing though:
Try to add variations to stuff I said too; there is so much I left out. Stuff like dtilt->hold for walk->dd quick wavedash back ff grab ledge->dair ledgehop
Wouldn't it be faster to hold away from the ledge so that you end up facing backwards on dtilts IASA frame, and then just wavedash back to fast fall ledge grab instead of putting a dash dance in there? Then you'd just have dtilt -> hold back -> wd ff ledgegrab -> dair ledgehop. Or am I missing something here?
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
One thing though:
Wouldn't it be faster to hold away from the ledge so that you end up facing backwards on dtilts IASA frame, and then just wavedash back to fast fall ledge grab instead of putting a dash dance in there? Then you'd just have dtilt -> hold back -> wd ff ledgegrab -> dair ledgehop. Or am I missing something here?
You do it so that you reduce your WD distance. If your dtilt is spaced towards the ledge, you dash forward to gain some distance, press back quick and then do a small WD to FF. Dashing is faster than WD so you should save some significant frames. Considering how tight the timing is to grab the ledge after a dtilt (they jump almost immediately usually), I think its an important addition.
 

NTMR

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
8
Location
Raleigh, NC
You do it so that you reduce your WD distance. If your dtilt is spaced towards the ledge, you dash forward to gain some distance, press back quick and then do a small WD to FF. Dashing is faster than WD so you should save some significant frames. Considering how tight the timing is to grab the ledge after a dtilt (they jump almost immediately usually), I think its an important addition.
Ah I see, I hadn't thought about wd vs dd speed. Makes sense, plus for some reason it seams a lot easier to throw a dd in there vs what I was saying.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
Hm, other than what was already mentioned, I'd say some important tech to learn:

1. quick uairs. this is vital. get a handicapped bowser to the top platform of yoshis and perform uairs. make sure they hit every time or you are going late.
16. shield to stop momentum before aerials. Something I am trying to get used to. Basically shield right before you jump so you go straight up. Great for uair chains (a lot of times your momentum sends you past your opponent when you don't do this and therefore makes it really hard for follow up).


1. You don't have to be fast to hit people on the top platform of YS. You can also hit them if you Uair at the peak of your jump. Anyway quik uairs are still important.

16. This doesn't really work if you asap jump oos or it might only work in the initial dash frames, during the full run it's generally better to just press back right before you jump.

Other than that good stuff.

Oh and someone tell me what a Tomahawk grab is and why it has such a stupid name.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
Oh, with Sheik we call that "Amsah jumping" or "the Amsah".
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
1. You don't have to be fast to hit people on the top platform of YS. You can also hit them if you Uair at the peak of your jump. Anyway quik uairs are still important.
Yeah, you don't have to be very fast to do YS but for beginners its a place to start. Otherwise I don't really know a method for practicing quick uairs. Plus, its a tad bit harder when you try to move and uair.

Another good practice is dashing off the edge of a lower platform on Yoshi's (much easier) or Battlefield (hard) and hitting a CPU standing on the edge of the top platform with a uair. Waveland, runoff, uair, ff is a pretty good routine, particularly if you can make it fast.

16. This doesn't really work if you asap jump oos or it might only work in the initial dash frames, during the full run it's generally better to just press back right before you jump.
Uh yes it works. Just press shield then jump really quickly.

I don't really do the pressing back thing, that might be a good idea. I just crouch at full run tbh.
 

mers

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
997
Location
Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH
What percent should I start doing pivot grabs during my chaingrab on Falco? I've kinda got the feeling down for Fox, but I often let the Falco player jump out.

The problem could be that I dash too far before pivoting, or that I start the dash late, but I just want to be sure of the percentage window I should be looking for.
Pivot grabbing shouldn't stop them from jumping out, AFAIK. It just allows you to grab them when they could normally shine you out of it.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
i believe it covers both options, if ur frame perfect. i remember from some of my old AR tests that fox's jump takes like 5 frames in order to leave the zone covered by marth's grab.
 

Diatenshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
1,052
Location
Greensboro and Goldsboro, NC
Having trouble with autocancelled nairs, like its just a SHFFL Nair that is done as soon as you can, landing just after the second slash, well i get all that done, it just doesnt... cancel

if i L-cancel it seems a little faster than usual but im just tricking myself into believing that, since it shouldnt have to be l-cancelled

anyone have a video to demonstrate it or anything?
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
There's not much to demonstrate, you already described how to do it yourself. That said you don't always want to do the autocancel Nair. Sometimes it's better to just make the second slash lower and l-cancel. If you ask me it's not even one of the more important things to do, but practicing doing quick aerials in general probably wouldn't be a bad idea... And here this would automatically be included.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
Then you don't Nair quickly enough. Try doing it in 2/3 speed or something and see if you get it to autocancel then.
 

mers

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
997
Location
Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH
i believe it covers both options, if ur frame perfect. i remember from some of my old AR tests that fox's jump takes like 5 frames in order to leave the zone covered by marth's grab.
Right, it does. I was just making the point that pivot grabbing is no faster than regular grabbing. If they're jumping out of your chaingrabs, adding pivot grabbing won't help. Just learn to grab faster, or start utilting.

But if they're shining out, add in some pivot grabs.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
So I've been practicing my uairs and doing some testing. As far as I can tell Roy/Falco is the cutoff for when rising uair can scoop a standing opponent. Those 2 are fairly difficult, so I'd recommend practicing on taller characters and working your way down. I don't think its humanly possible to scoop a Falco with cstick holding the controller normally (no claw); I am trying to learn more A because I can do it much faster that way and I recommend others to do the same. Note that Marth can rising uair small opponents (incl. Fox) with his weak hitbox (arm, inner sword) since it is lower than the tip (see the hitbox thread), but can't scoop them (tipper uair).

Anyway, earlier in this thread I was talking about how to practice quick uairs and as far as I know, trying to scoop characters of various heights is the best way.
 

makoforce

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
705
Location
Inkster,Michigan
So I've been practicing my uairs and doing some testing. As far as I can tell Roy/Falco is the cutoff for when rising uair can scoop a standing opponent. Those 2 are fairly difficult, so I'd recommend practicing on taller characters and working your way down. I don't think its humanly possible to scoop a Falco with cstick holding the controller normally (no claw); I am trying to learn more A because I can do it much faster that way and I recommend others to do the same. Note that Marth can rising uair small opponents (incl. Fox) with his weak hitbox (arm, inner sword) since it is lower than the tip (see the hitbox thread), but can't scoop them (tipper uair).

Anyway, earlier in this thread I was talking about how to practice quick uairs and as far as I know, trying to scoop characters of various heights is the best way.
can you explain "scooping"
 

mers

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
997
Location
Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH
So I've been practicing my uairs and doing some testing. As far as I can tell Roy/Falco is the cutoff for when rising uair can scoop a standing opponent. Those 2 are fairly difficult, so I'd recommend practicing on taller characters and working your way down. I don't think its humanly possible to scoop a Falco with cstick holding the controller normally (no claw); I am trying to learn more A because I can do it much faster that way and I recommend others to do the same. Note that Marth can rising uair small opponents (incl. Fox) with his weak hitbox (arm, inner sword) since it is lower than the tip (see the hitbox thread), but can't scoop them (tipper uair).

Anyway, earlier in this thread I was talking about how to practice quick uairs and as far as I know, trying to scoop characters of various heights is the best way.
It's definitely possible to do with C-stick. I assume you have to do the uair on the first frame that you leave the ground, which means you have 5 or 6 frames to go from X (or Y) to c-up.

If you just keep practicing, you can get that fast. I'm at the point now where I can do JC usmashes with X and the c-stick, which just happened from trying rising uair with Falcon for so long.

Not saying A is any worse, just that you can do it either way.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
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LA, CA near Santa Monica
It's definitely possible to do with C-stick. I assume you have to do the uair on the first frame that you leave the ground, which means you have 5 or 6 frames to go from X (or Y) to c-up.

If you just keep practicing, you can get that fast. I'm at the point now where I can do JC usmashes with X and the c-stick, which just happened from trying rising uair with Falcon for so long.

Not saying A is any worse, just that you can do it either way.
Gah I need to borrow your fingers. I can't go from y to up on c-stick in 5 frames to save my life. Can't scoop Falco with c-stick at all. Ganon I can, but never Falco.

I should probably get my spacies better so I improve my finger speed...
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
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Could someone explain... why would a rising sh uair be better than grabbing them?

You guys practice the weirdest stuff >.>
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
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Could someone explain... why would a rising sh uair be better than grabbing them?

You guys practice the weirdest stuff >.>
No no you would never use it in match like that haha. Approaching with a running sh rising uair isn't a good approach at all. Its just a good way to practice getting your uairs as quick as possible.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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Haha okay, well... why would you want to do it as soon as possible? Even with the tipper uair chase off uthrow on full left or right DI on spacies, you want to delay the uair coming out ever so slightly to make sure the uair tip doesn't miss iirc. And hitting the top platform on Yoshi's with a sh uair is a delayed uair as well...
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
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Haha okay, well... why would you want to do it as soon as possible? Even with the tipper uair chase off uthrow on full left or right DI on spacies, you want to delay the uair coming out ever so slightly to make sure the uair tip doesn't miss iirc. And hitting the top platform on Yoshi's with a sh uair is a delayed uair as well...
Just situational stuff. Someones falling down on you and you wanna uair quick. Extend your combo when they are above you. Some aerial combos on fastfallers (DJ quick uairs).

Besides, it looks cool. :awesome:
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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Philadephia, PA
Lol. I'll take your word for it. For each of your examples, I feel like there is a better choice tbh, but whatevs. Variety is always cool lol. I play too much theorysmash.
 

makoforce

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
705
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Inkster,Michigan
scooping is used on brawl rising and falling upairs. Yea grabbing then would be much better. But if its that serious just practice your fairs to upairs. Double aerials ****.... at times. Or if your that close if ur feeling flashy jus WD back into a fsmash and it will tip.
 

mers

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
997
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Oberlin College, Oberlin, OH
So, ledgehop neutral B regrab is NUTS. I have never ever once succeeded. As with most things in this thread, it's really not useful, but I still wanna do it. It's harder than uair regrab, right? I can't do that either.

I think my ledgehop timing is off, and I'm falling too far before I jump.
 

townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
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Memphis, TN
So, ledgehop neutral B regrab is NUTS. I have never ever once succeeded. As with most things in this thread, it's really not useful, but I still wanna do it. It's harder than uair regrab, right? I can't do that either.

I think my ledgehop timing is off, and I'm falling too far before I jump.
You gotta use Y to jump. I'd ever done 1 in my entire life, then yesterday I went into training mode and did them in 1/4, 1/2, 2/3 etc until i can do them competently in game now. Worst case, I don't regrab and I upB. It's nuts. Although it still sucks, and I get shield grabbed sometimes for doing it because you get so high above the ledge. Lol, shield grabbing shield breaker, I suck.
 
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