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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #21: Wolf
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Couple players in my state main Wolf so here's some general input from my experience.
Ah poor Wolf...
So many "gay" things are possible on Wolf. Specifically most of the chain grabs and stuff like Sheiks tilt lock. Many of which either lead to death or put him off stage. His recovery is very vulnerable and his lack of ability to drift after his up b makes things even harder for him.
Wolf isn't all bad though...
Side B mix ups for going through the ledge or canceling on the ledge. He can use the Down B invincibility to punish over aggressive juggles and or use it in some situations to land safely which works well in combination with his falling speed. Down B can also knocks MK out of Nado (happens to me alot). Spike doesn't sour spot although the spike itself is fairly easy to meteor cancel out of. Fair has decent kill power if saved and at much higher percents the lol uptilt (the mini snake). F-smash is good for punishing/racking damage on special fall landing and laggy moves horizontally. D-smash his normal kill move of choice gets the job done well if kept fresh and not forced. Wolf also has quick strings which are fast and good for building percent (jabs, bair to f tilt and others). His blaster is better than I first thought and can be quite annoying pepper damage and at close range the "claw/knife" part can be a surprise hit. As far as stages go the wolfs I've played against usually like Smashville, Delfino, and Yoshi's Island. They stay away from PS1, and Lylat.
Wolf has a lot of decent tools overall and while I feel that he'll never be horrible he's just too easily counter gayed both with characters and with stages. He'll probably stay in the range of C to Lower B at the highest.
Ah poor Wolf...
So many "gay" things are possible on Wolf. Specifically most of the chain grabs and stuff like Sheiks tilt lock. Many of which either lead to death or put him off stage. His recovery is very vulnerable and his lack of ability to drift after his up b makes things even harder for him.
Wolf isn't all bad though...
Side B mix ups for going through the ledge or canceling on the ledge. He can use the Down B invincibility to punish over aggressive juggles and or use it in some situations to land safely which works well in combination with his falling speed. Down B can also knocks MK out of Nado (happens to me alot). Spike doesn't sour spot although the spike itself is fairly easy to meteor cancel out of. Fair has decent kill power if saved and at much higher percents the lol uptilt (the mini snake). F-smash is good for punishing/racking damage on special fall landing and laggy moves horizontally. D-smash his normal kill move of choice gets the job done well if kept fresh and not forced. Wolf also has quick strings which are fast and good for building percent (jabs, bair to f tilt and others). His blaster is better than I first thought and can be quite annoying pepper damage and at close range the "claw/knife" part can be a surprise hit. As far as stages go the wolfs I've played against usually like Smashville, Delfino, and Yoshi's Island. They stay away from PS1, and Lylat.
Wolf has a lot of decent tools overall and while I feel that he'll never be horrible he's just too easily counter gayed both with characters and with stages. He'll probably stay in the range of C to Lower B at the highest.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Wolf has a lot of great tools. If he didn't have a crappy recovery, I'd still say he's really good despite the stupid locks and chain grabs that work on him. His Back air is amazing. His laser, while nowhere near as good as Falco's, is still useful, and gets about 6% fresh I think? His Dsmash is pretty large, quick and has great kill power if kept fresh. He even has a few combos and decent mixup game. Fsmash is hilarious in that it punishes moves in situations that normally nobody could. I used to say I liked playing the Wolf/Marth matchup because no matter how far they spaced, I was always in Fsmash range. Reflector has good invincbility and can set up other hits due to its low knockback (or leave him vulnerable for the same reason).
His spike is ****ing -huge-. For example, Game and Watch using Nair through the ledge. Wolf can stand on stage and spike Game & Watch from above the ground without being hit by the fish. He can hit DDD with it when he is above a platform and DDD is below it. It's not the strongest, but it's a surprising move. Overall, he's about where he needs to be now. He's not garbage, but being able to die at any percent to slight variations in knockback are isn't going to be helping him rise any time soon.
His spike is ****ing -huge-. For example, Game and Watch using Nair through the ledge. Wolf can stand on stage and spike Game & Watch from above the ground without being hit by the fish. He can hit DDD with it when he is above a platform and DDD is below it. It's not the strongest, but it's a surprising move. Overall, he's about where he needs to be now. He's not garbage, but being able to die at any percent to slight variations in knockback are isn't going to be helping him rise any time soon.
his fallspeed can be used to his advantage w/ b.air pressure mixed up empty SH-grabs/airdodge behind, very well. his laser can be very annoying for large characters, and his shine is very useful in getting back to the ground, because its usually not worth DIing off stage w/ him. his jab and grab game is pretty sweet mixed in with laser and smashes, he can be pretty tricky. sadly, nothing he has is broken which keeps him from being high tier
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Yeah, I'm eager to see what the top wolves are going to say, because sadly, I don't have much to contribute except the 2008 mantra of Wolf being the best bad character due to a solid character that just gets ***** by virtually every gay tactic in the game.
Crow!
Smash Lord
I list Wolf as a secondary, but these days it would be more true to say that I exclusively play Wolf vs nooby Wifi Knights. You'd never believe how many players there are against whom landing a blaster vs a tornado leaves me ~90% certain of scoring 3 more blaster shots in a row.
I don't think Wolf gets gayed as bad as people say, apart from Pikachu (who doesn't seem to be deterring other BBR members from saying Fox should rise a lot).
Wolf's recovery is total crap, though - and this is coming from a Link/Yoshi dual main. I find that getting back on stage without getting hit into another bad situation immediately afterward is significantly harder as Wolf than as my usual characters. This, imo, is why D3's chaingrab hurts Wolf so much, not the actual damage that it deals.
YI: Melee could potentially be an amazing Wolf stage. Think about it.
I don't think Wolf gets gayed as bad as people say, apart from Pikachu (who doesn't seem to be deterring other BBR members from saying Fox should rise a lot).
Wolf's recovery is total crap, though - and this is coming from a Link/Yoshi dual main. I find that getting back on stage without getting hit into another bad situation immediately afterward is significantly harder as Wolf than as my usual characters. This, imo, is why D3's chaingrab hurts Wolf so much, not the actual damage that it deals.
YI: Melee could potentially be an amazing Wolf stage. Think about it.
*thinks about it*
I guess it WOULD be better for Wolf than many other stages....... Except against DDD. That would just be overkill for DDD.
Crow!
Smash Lord
Would it really be so bad even in that case? Gaining many additional ways to avoid getting chaingrabbed at all might balance out the extra punishment involved when the chaingrab does get landed. Also, the tiny stage helps mitigate the dramatic difference in momentum canceling ability.
Not to say that it would be a place Wolf would CP Dedede to, but I'm not so sure it would be the right decision for Dedede, either. For his more normal matchups, yay slope tricks with side B / FSmash, yay early kills thanks to FSmash (which usually isn't that great for killing), and yay no offstage zone to deal with.
Also, forgot to specifically address Falco and Shiek. Falco's chaingrab will deal massive damage, but the spike can generally be stage teched. Shiek's ftilt lock isn't that bad if you SDI super hard.
Not to say that it would be a place Wolf would CP Dedede to, but I'm not so sure it would be the right decision for Dedede, either. For his more normal matchups, yay slope tricks with side B / FSmash, yay early kills thanks to FSmash (which usually isn't that great for killing), and yay no offstage zone to deal with.
Also, forgot to specifically address Falco and Shiek. Falco's chaingrab will deal massive damage, but the spike can generally be stage teched. Shiek's ftilt lock isn't that bad if you SDI super hard.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
HAWOO
Hehe...DACUS is fun...
Wolf can have a pretty good keep away game with his SH bairs, FH Double bairs (Hungrybox should play this character) and laser. I don't know much more about him though...there aren't any in my state >_>
Hehe...DACUS is fun...
Wolf can have a pretty good keep away game with his SH bairs, FH Double bairs (Hungrybox should play this character) and laser. I don't know much more about him though...there aren't any in my state >_>
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Wolf is such an interesting character... Everytime I think he's awful I'm reminded of like 30 more things he's amazing at. His shine is a really interesting trait about him and his WOP bairs are pretty tricky to get around.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
Wolf is the perfect example of a character that could be really awesome if he was only slightly different.
He has a great move set, good kill power, great damage racking, and a decent ranged game coupled with a reflector (which has interesting properties of its own, such as technically being a "parry" move).
Unfortunately, by sheer coincidence, he happens to be at exactly the right weight and gravity to be chain thrown, locked, combo'd, etc. by every character in the game. He is the only space-animal that DeDeDe can chain-throw, for instance.
Even all of that "gay" stuff that happens to him wouldn't be so bad if he didn't also have such a poor recovery. I think that he could be a perfectly fine character if he either had to deal with chaingrabs/locks/etc. OR had to deal with having a bad recovery.
...but unfortunately he has to deal with BOTH of those weaknesses, and they seem to enhance each other.
I don't see any reason at all for him to go up, he just has too many inherent weaknesses as a character.
That said, I still think he can be viable in the right hands. Kain is an amazing player and does great things with Wolf.
He has a great move set, good kill power, great damage racking, and a decent ranged game coupled with a reflector (which has interesting properties of its own, such as technically being a "parry" move).
Unfortunately, by sheer coincidence, he happens to be at exactly the right weight and gravity to be chain thrown, locked, combo'd, etc. by every character in the game. He is the only space-animal that DeDeDe can chain-throw, for instance.
Even all of that "gay" stuff that happens to him wouldn't be so bad if he didn't also have such a poor recovery. I think that he could be a perfectly fine character if he either had to deal with chaingrabs/locks/etc. OR had to deal with having a bad recovery.
...but unfortunately he has to deal with BOTH of those weaknesses, and they seem to enhance each other.
I don't see any reason at all for him to go up, he just has too many inherent weaknesses as a character.
That said, I still think he can be viable in the right hands. Kain is an amazing player and does great things with Wolf.
Crow!
Smash Lord
Since we are doing all of D Tier this week, I present my usual data for D-Tier characters.
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
If you forced me to answer whether Wolf mains or Fox mains were doing better in tournaments, I'd probably say Wolf is. But really, the two are performing about the same.
Wolf, the present bottom of D Tier, seems to be notably better than Donkey Kong, the present top. Which is counterintuitive: Wolf's bad matchups might not be as bad as DK's, but he's got a lot more of them to deal with. Is this not as much of a factor in terms of doing well (or at least above-average) in tournament as something else that Wolf has that DK doesn't?
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
If you forced me to answer whether Wolf mains or Fox mains were doing better in tournaments, I'd probably say Wolf is. But really, the two are performing about the same.
Wolf, the present bottom of D Tier, seems to be notably better than Donkey Kong, the present top. Which is counterintuitive: Wolf's bad matchups might not be as bad as DK's, but he's got a lot more of them to deal with. Is this not as much of a factor in terms of doing well (or at least above-average) in tournament as something else that Wolf has that DK doesn't?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
It is probably because Wolves bad matchups, while greater in number, don't occur as often in comparison to DDs bad matchups, which are harsher.
I do think that Wolf does have potential, but the fact every single tactic that is gay murders him really hurts in tournament. Since Wolf ends up with such a small margin of error against those who have an advantage against him. yes he has the tools to avoid the SHeik Ftilt, but it does mean once it lands he's taking tons of damage or losing a stock.
USMASH ALL DAY!
I do think that Wolf does have potential, but the fact every single tactic that is gay murders him really hurts in tournament. Since Wolf ends up with such a small margin of error against those who have an advantage against him. yes he has the tools to avoid the SHeik Ftilt, but it does mean once it lands he's taking tons of damage or losing a stock.
USMASH ALL DAY!
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
The problem with wolf is once people learn to power shield your B-air then you're screwed.
I was playing to Seagull in friendlies and losing. I decided to start powershield and bam I started 2 to 3 stocking him.
this added with his horibble recover and kill moves that had a lotta lag (D-smash + F-smash) makes him pretty bad.
In my opinion though in the right hands any character can win. This game is mostly about reading your opponent which means if you're using Wolf you just have to be way smarter then your opponent to win.
I was playing to Seagull in friendlies and losing. I decided to start powershield and bam I started 2 to 3 stocking him.
this added with his horibble recover and kill moves that had a lotta lag (D-smash + F-smash) makes him pretty bad.
In my opinion though in the right hands any character can win. This game is mostly about reading your opponent which means if you're using Wolf you just have to be way smarter then your opponent to win.
No matter how much reading Ganondorf does, he's going to lose to ICs and Olimar. :|
I dunno, I wouldn't say any character can win. Theres some MUs that are just so abysmal that I can't even theorycraft the bad character winning, like the above mentioned examples.
Given that thought, Wolf is not one of those abysmal characters. He definitely has what it takes to win, but he doesn't seem to be in the league of C tier characters. There are D tier characters who are better than him, but I can't see him being in E tier either, with all of those "unviable" characters.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
If Wolf uses Shine when falling down and doesn't do any button input after said Shine until hitting the ground, he has no landing lag.
Wolf's dthrow near the ledge is extremely effective against other spacies.
I didn't know Falco could buffer a standing CG without moving at all until I saw Rain do it at Apex in a MM
I didn't know Falco could buffer a standing CG without moving at all until I saw Rain do it at Apex in a MM
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
I did. It's not entirely new knowledge, just not widespread.
thegreatkazoo
Smash Master
Oh, so us Joe Six Packs get to discuss Wolf with the Barwl brass? Interesting.
Well, most everything I would say has been said. I don't know if I speak in singularity here, but I feel that you can't be a tourney placer (and a constant one @ that) by going all Wolf.
For my time in the Atlanta region, there were all the wrong MUs for my poor wolfie: A D3 (Serin and Alby), a
(Scattz), a :shiek: (reflex), I think you get the idea. I knew that I had to get a better char one time on a July monthly, where I had a huge lead over Scattz (he was pika), then cg to 108%, upsmash, thanks for coming.
For those who powershield bair and fsmash, you have nothing to worry about. It almost forces you to pick another main or co-main someone else.
I have mario and falco for that, but I wanna see what the rest of the guys here think.
*Waits*
Well, most everything I would say has been said. I don't know if I speak in singularity here, but I feel that you can't be a tourney placer (and a constant one @ that) by going all Wolf.
For my time in the Atlanta region, there were all the wrong MUs for my poor wolfie: A D3 (Serin and Alby), a
(Scattz), a :shiek: (reflex), I think you get the idea. I knew that I had to get a better char one time on a July monthly, where I had a huge lead over Scattz (he was pika), then cg to 108%, upsmash, thanks for coming. For those who powershield bair and fsmash, you have nothing to worry about. It almost forces you to pick another main or co-main someone else.
I have mario and falco for that, but I wanna see what the rest of the guys here think.
*Waits*
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Gimr, I haven't played you in forever
D
Deleted member
Guest
Wolf is indeed a character that gets "gayed" over by sheik's tilt-lock(I never could SDI out of that...it's brutal, and the worst possible thing for Wolf IMO), chain grabs, and the occasional gimp, but he does have the tools to fight his bad matchups. He's a great punisher, and spacing with bair, lasers, and rising fair(learn that, and your Wolf will feel so much more solid) helps a lot. In fact, the D3 MU got significantly easier to deal with once Dark 3nergy taught me to do rising fair and retreat. It makes it safe to attack D3's shield and avoid getting grabbed.
Jump shining is pretty good due to its invincibility frames(8, I think?). I firmly believe Wolf is also one of the better characters to fight Meta Knight with, and here's a post by Seagull explaining why:
And to those skeptical of Wolf being tournament viable, look at Kain. A Wolf main who goes all Wolf and places well consistently, sometimes coming in 1st.
Oh yeah, and gotta love the DACUS!
Edit: @thegreatkazoo: You should be able to shine out of Pikachu's chain grab the moment they try to deal the final blow. Just keep mashing down-b.
Jump shining is pretty good due to its invincibility frames(8, I think?). I firmly believe Wolf is also one of the better characters to fight Meta Knight with, and here's a post by Seagull explaining why:
With the tools to fight his bad MU's and recent tournament results, I don't see why Wolf shouldn't rise a little, at least above Fox with the horrible MUs he has.Seagull Man said:
And to those skeptical of Wolf being tournament viable, look at Kain. A Wolf main who goes all Wolf and places well consistently, sometimes coming in 1st.
Oh yeah, and gotta love the DACUS!
Edit: @thegreatkazoo: You should be able to shine out of Pikachu's chain grab the moment they try to deal the final blow. Just keep mashing down-b.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
how come the BBR members that have played against THE TOP wolfs haven't commented in this?
I have an important question.
Will members of the BBR be monitoring this thread to view new posts and respond as applicable? Because I have this pretty big post that I'm working on where I'm going to reply to every post made and go over a crapload of stuff, and I don't want to waste my time any further unless I know that it's going to be acknowledged and responded to. Not that I mean for this to come off badly at all, it's just that there are another 5 character discussions due this week and I'd assume that the BBR is doing the best they can to discuss the potential of the current E tier in today's metagame.
Will members of the BBR be monitoring this thread to view new posts and respond as applicable? Because I have this pretty big post that I'm working on where I'm going to reply to every post made and go over a crapload of stuff, and I don't want to waste my time any further unless I know that it's going to be acknowledged and responded to. Not that I mean for this to come off badly at all, it's just that there are another 5 character discussions due this week and I'd assume that the BBR is doing the best they can to discuss the potential of the current E tier in today's metagame.
wolf getting gayed is overrated.
besides low % cgs (definitely avoidable), sheiks ftilt lock (low-mid %), and d3's cg, you could at most say there's more combo potential on wolf than on most other characters. this means that most stuff requires a read to get out, which is far from impossible, and makes the good wolves stand out.
Wolf just has no gay stuff to wreck *****es.
besides low % cgs (definitely avoidable), sheiks ftilt lock (low-mid %), and d3's cg, you could at most say there's more combo potential on wolf than on most other characters. this means that most stuff requires a read to get out, which is far from impossible, and makes the good wolves stand out.
Wolf just has no gay stuff to wreck *****es.
Ishieymoro, I have no idea what the other BBR members will do with this thread. I constantly check the ones I talk in (even this one, which as you can see, I barely said anything), but I'm not exactly knowledgeable about fastfallers... I'm more into light and combotastic characters. So, I'll probably reply to things I can reply to. :\
D
Deleted member
Guest
Which is exactly why the BBR members need to read these threads after they've been posted. That's the only way they will learn about characters like this that they don't know much about.
I see... well, one person at a time I guess ;D It's good of you to keep up on the discussions that you posted in though, I hope more BBR members secretly do the same... There's a lot more to Wolf that people just haven't mentioned at all. Time to get working on my post then, it'll probably be up sometime tomorrow :x
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Not true, You just have to be THAT much smarter then your opponent.
BTW, ganondorf can forward-B to D-smash Olimar Guaranteed.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
he can also forward b to dash attack metaknight guaranteed
tekkie
Smash Master
wolf is decent but no one uses him. his tier placement shouldn't go anywhere, and if people learn the matchup his low placement is even more solidified
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I think Ganon does a fairly splendid job at choking Olimar, and it's really impossible to DI out of dsmash, MU is even.
D
Deleted member
Guest
This isn't the Ganon character discussion, guys. Keep the topic on Wolf.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I posted this in the social previously, but here's an interesting video of what Wolf is capable of on the edge of Battlefield and Smashville, as well as some other neat techniques.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIaypm4cbfY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIaypm4cbfY
Apollo$
Smash Ace
Wolf is the best of the worst by far! He could be mid tier but he's so average and nobody really uses him. He gets gayed by the whole game and yet stays a contender due to bair
D
Deleted member
Guest
::sigh::
He currently is and will stay mid-tier, unless he moves up to high-mid in the next list.
He'll never be low-tier. Stop asking for it so you can win low-tier tourneys.
He currently is and will stay mid-tier, unless he moves up to high-mid in the next list.
He'll never be low-tier. Stop asking for it so you can win low-tier tourneys.
Hey guys, I love you and all, but let's stop the troll posts, k? Although I have to admit, Lord Chair's line was absolutely amazing, and Gheb, lol. But really, it's not helping anything, soooooo yeah. Don't make me infract people during summer
Anyways, post will be up another day late (lol), today's been really... bad :x Can anyone find a reliable source on what finishers Wario/Sheik can pull off after their CGs? Iirc, we can shield Wario's fsmash and escape Sheik's usmash with a shine, but can't test anything atm...
Anyways, post will be up another day late (lol), today's been really... bad :x Can anyone find a reliable source on what finishers Wario/Sheik can pull off after their CGs? Iirc, we can shield Wario's fsmash and escape Sheik's usmash with a shine, but can't test anything atm...
D
Deleted member
Guest
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175241 <--This thread list the percentage that Wolf can be KO'd after the ftilt lock, but other than that, I couldn't find anything. I'll test out escaping from her KO's tonight.Can anyone find a reliable source on what finishers Wario/Sheik can pull off after their CGs? Iirc, we can shield Wario's fsmash and escape Sheik's usmash with a shine, but can't test anything atm...
According to the Wario MU thread, Wolf gets CG'd at 62% up to 200%, then Fsmash for the kill, but it can be shielded. Is there really no escaping that grab? I don't have much match-up experience with Wolf against Wario.