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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #19: Fox
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Really really underestimated character, and he gets better the more the metagame progresses.
Probably should be at top of his tier or maybe even a tier above.
Fox has everything a good character needs, the only downside to him is his fallspeed which makes him vulnerable to several characters (Sheik's tiltlocks, Pikachu's DThrow CG, ICs - oddly enough not Dedede, lol), however, his metagame is evolving and Foxes become better at avoiding getting into these situations, so it's not "lol i counterpick pikachu ggs" anymore.
Ice Climbers are probably his worst matchup nevertheless, and Sheik and Pikachu still are bad.
He doesn't do that bad against most other high and top tiers though - they usually have the advantage, but it's only a small one, or it's even.
Edit:
Also, is it me, or is the D Tier (DK, Peach, Fox, Luigi, Wolf) only consisted of characters that actually would be really good, but have one or two get ***** matchups?
Probably should be at top of his tier or maybe even a tier above.
Fox has everything a good character needs, the only downside to him is his fallspeed which makes him vulnerable to several characters (Sheik's tiltlocks, Pikachu's DThrow CG, ICs - oddly enough not Dedede, lol), however, his metagame is evolving and Foxes become better at avoiding getting into these situations, so it's not "lol i counterpick pikachu ggs" anymore.
Ice Climbers are probably his worst matchup nevertheless, and Sheik and Pikachu still are bad.
He doesn't do that bad against most other high and top tiers though - they usually have the advantage, but it's only a small one, or it's even.
Edit:
Also, is it me, or is the D Tier (DK, Peach, Fox, Luigi, Wolf) only consisted of characters that actually would be really good, but have one or two get ***** matchups?
Dedede's chaingrab relies on what we call "weight," which is knockback resistance. While fall speed and weight often run parallel to each other, this is not always the case (Samus and Sheik are good examples of opposites). Fox falls fast and is "light," just like he was in Melee. So, no, it's not odd at all.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Yea, I know that, but I personally found it odd considering that Fox gets CG'd rather easily by Pikachu and ICs and that the guy who's known for his chaingrabs doesn't.
Not odd in the "omg why is that happening" sort of sense, but rather in the "lmao" sense, if you get my drift.
Not odd in the "omg why is that happening" sort of sense, but rather in the "lmao" sense, if you get my drift.
Fox is a decent character but decent doesn't really account for much in Brawl. Fox is fast, has a projectile (albeit without hitstun which is quite lame), has a reflector, has one extremely powerful useable smash, and if played right can recover very well. That would point to a good character but yeah the matchups where he gets pulverised don't help at all, and on top of that he suffers from several drawbacks.
I can't think of any truly reliable approach options Fox has, and although Brawl isn't exactly known for having people go on the offensive, not having reliable approach options isn't something that does any favours. His Nair is decent but not stellar, it's best used in a retreating fashion rather than to approach. His sideB is a subpar version of Falco's since it doesn't have the advantage of being used immediately after a jump to cancel the cooldown lag.
And to wrap up stating everything obvious, his fallspeed just begs for him to get CG'd, locked, and combo'd. His weird fallspeed can help him in some circumstances but otherwise it's safe to assume it doesn't work in his favour.
I dunno, Fox has some nice traits but nothing stellar, and of course he has true hard counters which cause his viability to take a massive dip. Mid tier at best imo.
I blame his fall from grace on the furry fandom.
I can't think of any truly reliable approach options Fox has, and although Brawl isn't exactly known for having people go on the offensive, not having reliable approach options isn't something that does any favours. His Nair is decent but not stellar, it's best used in a retreating fashion rather than to approach. His sideB is a subpar version of Falco's since it doesn't have the advantage of being used immediately after a jump to cancel the cooldown lag.
And to wrap up stating everything obvious, his fallspeed just begs for him to get CG'd, locked, and combo'd. His weird fallspeed can help him in some circumstances but otherwise it's safe to assume it doesn't work in his favour.
I dunno, Fox has some nice traits but nothing stellar, and of course he has true hard counters which cause his viability to take a massive dip. Mid tier at best imo.
I blame his fall from grace on the furry fandom.
Crow!
Smash Lord
I'm sure those outside the BBR will thoroughly enjoy our in depth discussion regarding the the subleties of gauging whether the tone of a composition is more "omg" or more "lmao."
Anyway, IMO, like Ike and Ganondorf, Fox is a character who will, more frequently than other characters, do much better than a overall to-the-book goodness-of-this-character measurement would suggest. I think the reason for this is obvious: these characters punish simple mistakes really hard. All you need is the usually very solid opponent(s) of your tournament group to have an "off" day (or even just an "off" minute), and wham! Fox might as well be A tier with the sheer damage output and killing power.
I'll see if the data backs this up once I get back home. Not 100% sure how to gauge this, though.
Anyway, IMO, like Ike and Ganondorf, Fox is a character who will, more frequently than other characters, do much better than a overall to-the-book goodness-of-this-character measurement would suggest. I think the reason for this is obvious: these characters punish simple mistakes really hard. All you need is the usually very solid opponent(s) of your tournament group to have an "off" day (or even just an "off" minute), and wham! Fox might as well be A tier with the sheer damage output and killing power.
I'll see if the data backs this up once I get back home. Not 100% sure how to gauge this, though.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Jesus Christ, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. =P
It was a small sidenote in brackets, and since Ankoku misunderstood it, I was explaining it. That has really nothing to do with the character discussion actually.
Teran summed it up quite nicely as well, though Fox can force approaches luckily.
I believe that when TKD plays a good Pikachu he switches to MK. TKD can you confirm whether this is true or not? Fox isn't a very viable character when used alone, but with a secondary to take care his impossible matchups like Pikachu, he is extremely good. I feel it is inaccurate to "ignore" some really hard counters he has when taking his position into the tier list into account. if not for the Pikachu and IC matchups, i'd put him into High tier, but because of it, I keep him in the smack center of mid tier.
Yeah very true!
Crow!
Smash Lord
I see my attempt at humor has failed. Oh well.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
The back part (Non-sweetspot) part of his u-smash jab locks on the BF platforms (Fox on the ground, somebody on the mid height platform)...it is silly.
Um, I don't have much of an opinion on fox because 1. There isn't one in my state and 2. I play Pikachu so it is pretty much a non issue. Sowwies
Um, I don't have much of an opinion on fox because 1. There isn't one in my state and 2. I play Pikachu so it is pretty much a non issue. Sowwies
LOL, you never play against Fox - do you find that people don't even attempt the matchup on you and just jump to a secondary knowing they are facing ESAM?
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Um...I haven't encountered a fox main in tournament. Only Falcos, and a Wolf secondary (Choice)
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
We have Zeton here. I'll go Pika on him when I'm feeling it. He did very well against Anther in tournament with Fox as well. I think fox is very underated. He racks up damage so **** fast, and has an early kill move (it's what, 8 frames?), that also has a pretty large hit box. Still, he has to deal with Sheik/Pik/Zamus and can struggle hard against MK/Falco and other top tiers. Fox mains really need to win the first match for fear of being counter-picked into one of those matchups. A few other characters can really give him a tough time as well. I think he's close to where he needs to be but could stand to go up a few spots as some skilled fox mains have proven hat even Sheik isn't impossible.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
lol "That guy." That is a little funny now that you mention it.
Fox is underrated imo. I would love to see TKD at a national he totally changed my perception on Fox.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Zero Suit Samus and Top Tiers aren't particularly bad for Fox.
Ice Climbers are worse for him than any of those characters you mentioned, he goes even or close to even with Falco, Wario and iirc Snake, and Meta Knight only has a small advantage on him, so while he does struggle at times, it isn't as bad as that he couldn't win.
gallax
Smash Hero
Fox is a slightly under-rated character imo. Ive always thought he was a really good character that can deal with anyone, even pikachu. Its a hard battle of course but its not totally unwinnable. With that being said i dont see going going on the tier list at all. He needs to go up if we want to change his position.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
100% serious, I think Fox counters Metaknight 6:4. MK cannot camp Fox at all because of lasers, mixing up drill -> stuff, air dodge -> up tilt, and air dodge -> grab gives Fox a good way to get in on MK and punish him a lot of the time pretty strong, blocking MKs down smash gets him up smashed every time easily, and he combos him hard even if you smash DI the up tilts MK is still in a bad position. I think Fox is an extremely, extremely underrated character because they are not enough good Fox's. I have never played TKD, but some Fox at Apex2 almost beat me in pools, and probably would have won both matches instead of lost if he didn't fall into habits such as constanlty spamming up tilt after a drill or double jumping in the same spot or spamming up smash when I'm at kill % while I am just waiting for it and baiting it. I honestly think Fox has a clear advantage in this matchup if he plays it right.
Affinity
Smash Hero
Just put your sword in between him and you anytime he comes at you. There's nothing he can do.
Also, shield-grab/N-air OoS **** him.
inb4tkd
m2k believes another character counters MK? no surprise. dont u think 6:4 is kind of pushing it?
yea those are great tools fox has - that tend to work better on other characters who get comboed worse. i would think MK has the tools to get around any mixups/pressure fox has (i.e. invinc. shuttleloop, pivot grab, nado...)
and lasers dont stop planking. even laser chip damage from scrooging wont make up for a 50% lead in minutes at a time.
he wins at edgeguarding, and recovering, and can outspace fox on all terrain.
yea those are great tools fox has - that tend to work better on other characters who get comboed worse. i would think MK has the tools to get around any mixups/pressure fox has (i.e. invinc. shuttleloop, pivot grab, nado...)
and lasers dont stop planking. even laser chip damage from scrooging wont make up for a 50% lead in minutes at a time.
he wins at edgeguarding, and recovering, and can outspace fox on all terrain.
Fox has no answer to MK when MK is right outside of ftilt range except waiting. Any event occuring at this range forces Fox to commit to a potentially unsafe action unless he has room to run backwards (reset).
I just enter Fox's uncomfortable range and wait. If they don't move creep forward with d-tilts to tornado combinations.
I just enter Fox's uncomfortable range and wait. If they don't move creep forward with d-tilts to tornado combinations.
Fox is very good at breaking apart tornado coming down from the top as well. Falling Up air (strangely enough) works well for this.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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I also think Fox beats MK on most neutrals. In addition to everything Jason just said, Fox's often underlooked saving grace is his full hop escape. He can just full hop out of any pressure, and his jump height off a full hop is ridiculous (you will not hit him with SH ANYTHING). He also rises very quickly, and due to awesome FF speed, can punish most whiffs. This allows him to destroy vertical spacing battles, despite losing in more popular horizontal spacing. Not falling into habits as Fox, learning how to use your good close range, being able to stall in midair ridiculously while having the fastest falling speed, breakneck rising speed, and 3rd fastest Dash, makes this characters camp game STUPIDLY solid.
Fox is hard to play though, but I think this character is A Tier.
Fox is hard to play though, but I think this character is A Tier.
I forgot to mention a weakness of Fox : for some reason his shield pokes very easily above his head. Attack his head and he almost can never shield that part unless he has a full shield. It always pokes, don't know why but I've tested this thoroughly.
Can that really be said of a character that gets reliably hard countered?
CO18
Smash Hero
TY pierce! fox so good, im picking him up, gonna get on that tkd status I believe hes extremely good vs mk also.
and fox beats zss tbh I think nick agrees. You shouldnt be getting hit by dsmash as fox.
and fox beats zss tbh I think nick agrees. You shouldnt be getting hit by dsmash as fox.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I don't believe that Fox beats MK at all. He might do decently, but I still think that it is solidly in MK's favor.
He loses the horizontal range battle hard against MK.
If he jumps, MK can always just move to the side and force it back into a horizontal battle. Considering MK's moves are stupidly fast and Fox's fullhop certainly takes longer than any move MK has in his disposal, he won't be punished after a full hop.
While I do agree trying to space Fox vetically can be tricky, I have managed to do it on a regular basis as Sonic, with a Uair that is nowhere near as fast or as disjointed as Mk's, so I do think it falls down to being mindgamed, and as I said,in the event he takes to the air, MK and several characters can simply wait and space him.
I often like to move a bit to the side and begin Uairing. My horizontal disjoint allows me to cover the area directly under him and the second hi covers the vetical aspect. If I feel I cant reliably dealw ith him, I move to the side and wait since he cannot fall down directly without risking punishment of his landing frames.
I do agree though that man, including myself did underrate Fox, and I can certainly see as to why Rookie originally said he i high tier.
The thing is that he gets reliably hard countered. One hard counter is bad, but anymore than that pretty much prevents any hope of being a high tier character.
He is great, possibly top of his current tier, but not high tier.
If he wasn't screwed over so badly by his hard counters, he would certainly be a candidate for high tier.
While his cmbo's can be DI'ed with practice, they are still devastating and powerful, placing the opponet in a position in which they cannot punish you.
Laser camping is good, combined with his excellent mobility makes a very tasty camping game and with that oh so powerful 8 frame Usmash, a mistake for many opponents, including the heaviest may cost them a stock.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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With Fox's ability to navigate platforms, he's good at not getting hit and can just take his time in approaching MK. If Fox full hops MK's Fair, MK is getting punished. Same for Ftilt hit 2 or 3. Same for Nado at times. The stage in which Fox doesn't have platforms which help him dance around MK are still okay, because they provide less ways to evade lasers, and don't really eliminate Fox's other advantages. (IE: FD, lol)
Fox has no problem wracking up damage or killing, and learning to use his different options to evade the opponent make him a tricky target to boot. Some characters rejoice in grabbing him, but he's not at all an easy target to grab. Usmash OOS is underused, and even just a running Usmash is a scary as hell tool, which can punish Marth's retreating Fair on Block fully spaced if done while rising.
Fox has no problem wracking up damage or killing, and learning to use his different options to evade the opponent make him a tricky target to boot. Some characters rejoice in grabbing him, but he's not at all an easy target to grab. Usmash OOS is underused, and even just a running Usmash is a scary as hell tool, which can punish Marth's retreating Fair on Block fully spaced if done while rising.
Fox isn't really hard countered by that many characters. Ice Climbers and Pikachu hard counter him but that's about it. Shiek is an evenish matchup for him and the ZSS matchup is most likely in his favor. I've played Nick Riddle a few times with Fox as I had picked him up for a while and it's pretty clear to see that he has the tools to beat her (pretty sure Nick agrees). ZSS landing the Dsmash chain on him is the only thing that really evens out the matchup.
In addition to that none of his "counters" are highly popular aside from Ice Climbers. It's very unlikely you'll meet up with many Shieks, Pikachus or ZSS in bracket and he does relatively well versus all the high tier characters.
I think he's definitely high tier material.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
I think Fox is a little overrated actually (in contrast to people thinking he's better than he is). He has a lot of interesting tricks that help him camp well and score early kills, but approaching higher and higher levels of play I find this stuff working less and less. Just chilling as close as you can to him but right outside of his physical range puts him in a terrible position. Too close to camp, and too far to physically attack. Also most of his approaches can be shield grabbed somewhat easily. His recovery is also sort of easy to read.
Also I do not think he counters MK.
Also I do not think he counters MK.
I don't think someone with two hard counters can be A tier. He simply cannot beat an IC or Pikachu main that is anywhere close to his skill level. A character that is expected to have to counterpick at any serious large tournament cannot be high tier.
Who hard counters Falco? I thought Pikachu had the advantage on him like 5-4 or 6-4 or something, but nobody sees that as a hard counter matchup.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Pika vs Falco is AT LEAST 65:35 Pika. IC is the same. AFAIK Marth is 55:45 with him.
Pikachu is Falco's only reliable counter.
Oh and not to mention that he doesn't have any borderline hopeless matchups.
Oh and not to mention that he doesn't have any borderline hopeless matchups.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
Gonna respond to some posts that I read in here. I'm a little behind this week, my apologies.
Anyway, Falco definitely does NOT **** Fox. That matchup is pretty much dead even.
Fox cannot be spiked after a Falco chain grab unless he's extremely low (like below 20% or something iirc). He falls too fast; the Fox just needs to DI away and the spike will miss every time. He cannot be 0-deathed / gimped unless the Fox is really predictable. Fox-copter + his up-b makes sure that he can recover from just about anywhere.
He racks up damage on Falco incredibly fast and can kill MUCH better than Falco. Falco can get damage from a chain-grab, but Fox can wrack him up just as easily with his normal moveset. He also outcamps Falco in the matchup, which is EXTREMELY odd and forces Falco to approach and play close ranged. It's 50/50.
I actually prefer to play DeDeDe against Fox because I don't like being forced to constantly approach as Falco.
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Overall, Fox is a character that would unquestionably be at the top of B or probably mid to low A tier if he didn't have those irritating bad matchups. Even so, he has tools that allow him to deal with many of those matchups, but even being forced to counter-pick isn't a big deal since most of the characters who counter him aren't popular at all.
He has even-ish matchups against most of the high tiers (save Pikachu) and is a much more versatile character than most people give him credit for. His mixups from d-air can lead into grabs, up-tilts, more d-airs, jab setups, etc. The d-air mixups give him excellent shield pressure and constantly keep the opponent guessing. Do they have a lot of shield left? Grab. Is their shield low? D-air/u-tilt/jab and break through it.
His camping game is also extremely under-rated. His lasers don't go full screen, but that doesn't matter. By short-hopping away and abusing his extremely fast run speed, he can constantly pelt the opponent with lasers and reflector any projectiles, forcing just about anyone to approach him. He can also wrack up an absurd amount of damage this way.
His kill-power is also incredibly good and he has plenty of safe setups, especially considering that his bread-and-butter attack sequence (d-air mixups) combos into both Up-Smash and D-Smash after a trip, which it causes frequently once the opponent gets over 100%.
The only thing holding Fox back is Pikachu, Shiek, and ZSS, but that really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. He's an extremely good character that is highly under-rated.
Zeton is awesome, *****es don't know about Zeton. They should.
Anyway, Falco definitely does NOT **** Fox. That matchup is pretty much dead even.
Fox cannot be spiked after a Falco chain grab unless he's extremely low (like below 20% or something iirc). He falls too fast; the Fox just needs to DI away and the spike will miss every time. He cannot be 0-deathed / gimped unless the Fox is really predictable. Fox-copter + his up-b makes sure that he can recover from just about anywhere.
He racks up damage on Falco incredibly fast and can kill MUCH better than Falco. Falco can get damage from a chain-grab, but Fox can wrack him up just as easily with his normal moveset. He also outcamps Falco in the matchup, which is EXTREMELY odd and forces Falco to approach and play close ranged. It's 50/50.
I actually prefer to play DeDeDe against Fox because I don't like being forced to constantly approach as Falco.
I don't think Fox beats MK at all, but I agree with you and M2K in that he is VERY difficult to gimp and can wrack damage and kill extremely early. I think Fox vs MK is 50/50 or at worst a 45:55 disadvantage for Fox. It's a really close matchup and I agree that Fox is very under-rated. More on that below.
Correct.
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Overall, Fox is a character that would unquestionably be at the top of B or probably mid to low A tier if he didn't have those irritating bad matchups. Even so, he has tools that allow him to deal with many of those matchups, but even being forced to counter-pick isn't a big deal since most of the characters who counter him aren't popular at all.
He has even-ish matchups against most of the high tiers (save Pikachu) and is a much more versatile character than most people give him credit for. His mixups from d-air can lead into grabs, up-tilts, more d-airs, jab setups, etc. The d-air mixups give him excellent shield pressure and constantly keep the opponent guessing. Do they have a lot of shield left? Grab. Is their shield low? D-air/u-tilt/jab and break through it.
His camping game is also extremely under-rated. His lasers don't go full screen, but that doesn't matter. By short-hopping away and abusing his extremely fast run speed, he can constantly pelt the opponent with lasers and reflector any projectiles, forcing just about anyone to approach him. He can also wrack up an absurd amount of damage this way.
His kill-power is also incredibly good and he has plenty of safe setups, especially considering that his bread-and-butter attack sequence (d-air mixups) combos into both Up-Smash and D-Smash after a trip, which it causes frequently once the opponent gets over 100%.
The only thing holding Fox back is Pikachu, Shiek, and ZSS, but that really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. He's an extremely good character that is highly under-rated.
You know I dunno about ZSS being such a huge problem for Fox.
The only problem is her dsmash, and that has pathetic range, is pretty telegraphed, and can be punished pretty easily if she messes up.
It does help screw with recovery on the ledge though.
Heh, why am I even talking about this?
inb4indeedTeranstfu
The only problem is her dsmash, and that has pathetic range, is pretty telegraphed, and can be punished pretty easily if she messes up.
It does help screw with recovery on the ledge though.
Heh, why am I even talking about this?
inb4indeedTeranstfu
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Fox beats ZSS. Also, lol at the red. ZSS's d-smash hitbox is ****ing stupidly huge for no reason.
It's too slow to hit Fox when he's doing anything but landing though.
Yeah, Fox is scary. (Not much to input since I've only played R@vyn's scrubby Fox a few times.)
I'd like to hear Larry's opinion on the Falco matchups... ;P