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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #17: Donkey Kong (Contribute to this please)
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
DK...is fun.
DK's strengths are obvious: Range, Killing potential, damage racking, and his survival %s. His bair fresh does...14-15% (I don't remember) and is his overall best move. It basically makes DK a small platform with a hitbox, and it can combo into itself at low-mid %s. It is a great edgeguarding tool and can rack tons of damage from one read off stage (Like hitting them out of their jump...mmmm).
His F-tilt is amazing for spacing. It has ridiculous range, but if predicted it can be punished due to its cool down. For mix-up, he has D-tilt. It has very nice range, although not the size of F-tilt, but is fast and can trip, which leads into a Down-b. It is hard to get DK out of a defensive position, his attacks have too much range and an OOS D-smash or U-tilt can always set up a nice position for the DK (Being above DK or being offstage against DK is always bad for the opponent).
His signature move is his punch. I think it does 26% when it is fully charged, and has super armor. It has a ton of knockback, but not as much as a 9wind punch, which I think has about the same knockback as a fully charged F-smash...or something close. It is a pretty amazing tool to have when your opponent tries to be too aggressive. You can take the hit and send them flying :D
DK has 2 glaring weaknesses though. Landing on the stage and getting back from the ledge. Although his get-up attack <100 is pretty good, if you shield while he is on the ledge he basically has 0 options. His get up attack is so fast that if you see him do something that isn't a get up attack, you can just charge a smash attack. His landing is also a problem. His punch can B-reverse (Like snake's nades or Pikachu's thunder) so he can't change his momentum. His dair and fair are both extremely slow on start-up and have a ton of landing lag. His best bet is to turn around with his punch and bair you...but that has problems...
I think DK is god in Mid Tier. I think he is better than ROB and Pit, but not better than Kirby, ZSS, or TL.
DK's strengths are obvious: Range, Killing potential, damage racking, and his survival %s. His bair fresh does...14-15% (I don't remember) and is his overall best move. It basically makes DK a small platform with a hitbox, and it can combo into itself at low-mid %s. It is a great edgeguarding tool and can rack tons of damage from one read off stage (Like hitting them out of their jump...mmmm).
His F-tilt is amazing for spacing. It has ridiculous range, but if predicted it can be punished due to its cool down. For mix-up, he has D-tilt. It has very nice range, although not the size of F-tilt, but is fast and can trip, which leads into a Down-b. It is hard to get DK out of a defensive position, his attacks have too much range and an OOS D-smash or U-tilt can always set up a nice position for the DK (Being above DK or being offstage against DK is always bad for the opponent).
His signature move is his punch. I think it does 26% when it is fully charged, and has super armor. It has a ton of knockback, but not as much as a 9wind punch, which I think has about the same knockback as a fully charged F-smash...or something close. It is a pretty amazing tool to have when your opponent tries to be too aggressive. You can take the hit and send them flying :D
DK has 2 glaring weaknesses though. Landing on the stage and getting back from the ledge. Although his get-up attack <100 is pretty good, if you shield while he is on the ledge he basically has 0 options. His get up attack is so fast that if you see him do something that isn't a get up attack, you can just charge a smash attack. His landing is also a problem. His punch can B-reverse (Like snake's nades or Pikachu's thunder) so he can't change his momentum. His dair and fair are both extremely slow on start-up and have a ton of landing lag. His best bet is to turn around with his punch and bair you...but that has problems...
I think DK is god in Mid Tier. I think he is better than ROB and Pit, but not better than Kirby, ZSS, or TL.
What ESAM said plus the cargo throw to stage spike as a strength and his size as a weakness. The former can be teched though. However, it will make DK's opponent be off stage. Furthermore, there are some stage specific gimmicks on Pokémon Stadium 1 due to the weird ledge, aka trying to stage spike again with Bair and such.
DK is a GOD on jungle japes, do not take him here. This is not a joke lol. It's because his UP B is like GW's bucket brake, and on japes he can abuse it because he can just rely on landing in the water to recover from it. He just never dies.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
CSS isn't reliable. If you hold up when the DK is Cargoing, it counts as one input every frame for some reason, so it won't work until high %s. It is better to just throw them off the level.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I love playing DK. I think he's great and the few DKs out there keep proving people they can handle even some of his most difficult matchups. His meta game seems to have pretty stalled out, but those few good DKs still manage to do well with the tools he has. His punishment game is just severe. If you consider a tournament where Luigi's is legal, he's practically broken there (instantly breaking at the ledge whenever you hit a platform first is pretty awesome). I prefer to go there over Japes, but both are great counterpicks. If DK can take game one, he can definitely win any given tournament set with counterpicks that sway matchups so heavily in his favor.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I thought I had posted my thoughts in regards to DK.
-.-
He is a great character, the problem is characters like MK and DDD.
There is also the issue with his shield which is rather bad even though his OOS options are rather god.
He is a strong, solid character.
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He is a great character, the problem is characters like MK and DDD.
There is also the issue with his shield which is rather bad even though his OOS options are rather god.
He is a strong, solid character.
DK would probably be viable without MK. Against some characters he can get ***** a whole stock, get a little bit of momentum and make the match even.
Otherwise Diddy kong works him pretty hard... but he's just about as legit as other characters in his tier.
Otherwise Diddy kong works him pretty hard... but he's just about as legit as other characters in his tier.
****, i'm late.
DK's b.air by far his best move. he can use it, although def not abuse it, very well defensively or to combo into another b.air, up.air, uptilt, etc, depending on the situation.
UpAir is fast, huge and amazing at baiting airdodges.
his jab is slow, but still his best option sometimes along with simply rolling backwards and retreating when the pressure is too much
f.tilt can be antiair, but its better thrown randomly or comboed from d.throw. otherwise it gets DK shield grabbed too easily. d.tilt is faster, safer poke, mixed up w/ jab, downB, and his amazing UpB.
His UpB can do everything:
Super Armor hits to huge damage.
when recovering, makes the ledge ALWAYS in reach
invincibile edgeguard to hog
glitch superarmor from any edge to last during entire UpB (even lag)
glitch invincibility on yoshi's and picto's edges (although ways to still punish)
break and escape from combos/corners and flee to edge/ledges (noone does this...)
and more and more
Giant Punch is amazing:
almost always, UNpunishable on shield
can safely be charged from a planking-esque manner lol
wavebounce applicable!
at any time can be fired backwards during charging!
9-wind kills characters at 40-80%, but 5,6,7, and 8 winds are all 'smash attack' power too!!
deals 28%!!!
D.smash OOS or buffered from airdodge is amazing when not predictable with it.
In my honest opinion, if DK gets edgeguarded, he really messed up. Even MK can easily stop his Up with his own every time, but DK can keep DIing, living, and mixing up his approach with it. All else considered, DK can't be stopped from recovering and its not uncommon for him to live to 180+. Dk's motivational message is "Get Hit. Don't Care."
DK, on the other hand, is pretty good at edgeguarding. b.air (big surprise), UpB, and 3 spikes to handle snake.
Cargo Spike IS LEGIT. Holding Up does not make it useless in the LEAST. If DK grabs someone close the edge and as long as their over 70%, there's a chance their dead.
And teching is not guaranteed. DK can delay his throw surprisingly long, and the throw is not reflexively techable. Cargo Spike is still serious business and shouldn't be underrated.
DK can true-infinite Lucas/Ness w/ cargo-release to d.smash kill. 100-0 matchup GG
DK's probs:
shield doesn't cover head well (not too big an issue)
size + has dead zones (f.air/d.air) that screw him over when he's juggled, on the edge trying to get back, or above someone (its often better to just DI off stage and go to edge
gets chainthrown - which is a bigger deal than people think, because despite outliving the cast, an early 50+% lead still forces DK the disadvantage of approaching in brawl.
DK can plank many characters quite effectively, although all the DKs i know have too much honor. Against falco, if you have the lead, its definitely your smartest position.
DK loses to ddd, olimar (imho), falco, and has trouble with pit, mk, and diddy, although those are winnable
outside that, i think DK goes give-or-take even with most (notably: snake, marth)
without going into all the matchups, I have to mention wario because its one i object to popular opinion
DK goes even with wario, i'm very certain. chainthrow is gay, but DK has grab release combos and grab release-UpSmash kills at 90%, plus B.air can actually compete w/ wario's air mobility
probably even w/ pika. chainthrow is brutal, and pika is campy, but DK can dish out huge damage fast, outlive, and reliably kill pika from 90.
fox falls in the same boat, but i'm open to either slight adv/dis
Tourney placings aren't amazing for DK. There's good and occasional great mixed in, but thats about it. He's got a bit of disadvantaged matchups that he has to learn but he has the tools to juggernaut his way to victory if the DK can read better.
i always will prefer a fewer-tiered tier list, but i like to think of him just short of GW or Toonlink status, maybe right under peach, with fox, zamus, pit, kirby.
DK's b.air by far his best move. he can use it, although def not abuse it, very well defensively or to combo into another b.air, up.air, uptilt, etc, depending on the situation.
UpAir is fast, huge and amazing at baiting airdodges.
his jab is slow, but still his best option sometimes along with simply rolling backwards and retreating when the pressure is too much
f.tilt can be antiair, but its better thrown randomly or comboed from d.throw. otherwise it gets DK shield grabbed too easily. d.tilt is faster, safer poke, mixed up w/ jab, downB, and his amazing UpB.
His UpB can do everything:
Super Armor hits to huge damage.
when recovering, makes the ledge ALWAYS in reach
invincibile edgeguard to hog
glitch superarmor from any edge to last during entire UpB (even lag)
glitch invincibility on yoshi's and picto's edges (although ways to still punish)
break and escape from combos/corners and flee to edge/ledges (noone does this...)
and more and more
Giant Punch is amazing:
almost always, UNpunishable on shield
can safely be charged from a planking-esque manner lol
wavebounce applicable!
at any time can be fired backwards during charging!
9-wind kills characters at 40-80%, but 5,6,7, and 8 winds are all 'smash attack' power too!!
deals 28%!!!
D.smash OOS or buffered from airdodge is amazing when not predictable with it.
In my honest opinion, if DK gets edgeguarded, he really messed up. Even MK can easily stop his Up with his own every time, but DK can keep DIing, living, and mixing up his approach with it. All else considered, DK can't be stopped from recovering and its not uncommon for him to live to 180+. Dk's motivational message is "Get Hit. Don't Care."
DK, on the other hand, is pretty good at edgeguarding. b.air (big surprise), UpB, and 3 spikes to handle snake.
Cargo Spike IS LEGIT. Holding Up does not make it useless in the LEAST. If DK grabs someone close the edge and as long as their over 70%, there's a chance their dead.
And teching is not guaranteed. DK can delay his throw surprisingly long, and the throw is not reflexively techable. Cargo Spike is still serious business and shouldn't be underrated.
DK can true-infinite Lucas/Ness w/ cargo-release to d.smash kill. 100-0 matchup GG
DK's probs:
shield doesn't cover head well (not too big an issue)
size + has dead zones (f.air/d.air) that screw him over when he's juggled, on the edge trying to get back, or above someone (its often better to just DI off stage and go to edge
gets chainthrown - which is a bigger deal than people think, because despite outliving the cast, an early 50+% lead still forces DK the disadvantage of approaching in brawl.
DK can plank many characters quite effectively, although all the DKs i know have too much honor. Against falco, if you have the lead, its definitely your smartest position.
DK loses to ddd, olimar (imho), falco, and has trouble with pit, mk, and diddy, although those are winnable
outside that, i think DK goes give-or-take even with most (notably: snake, marth)
without going into all the matchups, I have to mention wario because its one i object to popular opinion
DK goes even with wario, i'm very certain. chainthrow is gay, but DK has grab release combos and grab release-UpSmash kills at 90%, plus B.air can actually compete w/ wario's air mobility
probably even w/ pika. chainthrow is brutal, and pika is campy, but DK can dish out huge damage fast, outlive, and reliably kill pika from 90.
fox falls in the same boat, but i'm open to either slight adv/dis
Tourney placings aren't amazing for DK. There's good and occasional great mixed in, but thats about it. He's got a bit of disadvantaged matchups that he has to learn but he has the tools to juggernaut his way to victory if the DK can read better.
i always will prefer a fewer-tiered tier list, but i like to think of him just short of GW or Toonlink status, maybe right under peach, with fox, zamus, pit, kirby.
wow i never knew that, that's useful info, thanks
I've been playing almost solely Donkey for the last 4 months. He can do some incredible things but I think he has some close to impossible match ups. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get through a laser camping/side-Bing Falco, who has an easy CG > spike to boot. Best I can figure is to power shield but once you get close you either get grabbed or they side B away, it's very frustrating to deal with.
I like Donkey's MU's versus Snake and have actually been finding that against novice - mid level Snakes my Donkey Kong has an easier time than my Diddy. Snake's recover really takes a hit from Donkey's Bairs, and the whole damage game/KO power BS that happens to my Diddy is negated because Donkey lives longer and kills much earlier.
Also while at first I thought his MU with MK was terrible I now actually think it isn't bad. DK can get through nado with: ftilt, well spaced bair from the top, up-b during super armor, Fsmash (SICK) and Donkey punch. The DK punch is the most usual and devastating, one good nado read with MK over 80% and he gets KO'd by the punch. The bad part in the MU is DK's recovery, but if you time Up-B right so super armor frames go though MK's attacks it helps. Also if you mix up recover by stalling with Side-B it can throw off the MK.
Other things I like:
-U-tilt combos at low percent until about 30-40%, after which they are in good position for Bair/Uair.
-Auto-canceling Up-B invulnerability off of edges into Donkey punches on BF/Brinstar/PS1/YI/Norfair/Green Greens/Japes/Frigate/Castle Seige/etc etc, just about every stage except for SV (though with proper spacing you can get the Up-B to at least auto-cancel from that platform)
-Up-Smash is a really weird move to use and can hit grounded opponents
-Grab > dthrow > f tilt > either Bairs or Up-B works against practically every opponent at 0% and is typically good for a free 30-50%. Very useful damage racker from turtling if you get the first KO.
-Down-B is really good for controlling space (but basically gets completely negated by a spamming opponent
).
Things I don't like
-Easy to get grabbed
-Very difficult to get around projectile spam
-Recovery can get gimped/you can't air dodge once you are parallel to the stages edge. Terrible horizontal recovery.
-Laggy moves
-No projectile - Seriously why didn't they give him barrels?
I like Donkey's MU's versus Snake and have actually been finding that against novice - mid level Snakes my Donkey Kong has an easier time than my Diddy. Snake's recover really takes a hit from Donkey's Bairs, and the whole damage game/KO power BS that happens to my Diddy is negated because Donkey lives longer and kills much earlier.
Also while at first I thought his MU with MK was terrible I now actually think it isn't bad. DK can get through nado with: ftilt, well spaced bair from the top, up-b during super armor, Fsmash (SICK) and Donkey punch. The DK punch is the most usual and devastating, one good nado read with MK over 80% and he gets KO'd by the punch. The bad part in the MU is DK's recovery, but if you time Up-B right so super armor frames go though MK's attacks it helps. Also if you mix up recover by stalling with Side-B it can throw off the MK.
Other things I like:
-U-tilt combos at low percent until about 30-40%, after which they are in good position for Bair/Uair.
-Auto-canceling Up-B invulnerability off of edges into Donkey punches on BF/Brinstar/PS1/YI/Norfair/Green Greens/Japes/Frigate/Castle Seige/etc etc, just about every stage except for SV (though with proper spacing you can get the Up-B to at least auto-cancel from that platform)
-Up-Smash is a really weird move to use and can hit grounded opponents
-Grab > dthrow > f tilt > either Bairs or Up-B works against practically every opponent at 0% and is typically good for a free 30-50%. Very useful damage racker from turtling if you get the first KO.
-Down-B is really good for controlling space (but basically gets completely negated by a spamming opponent
).Things I don't like
-Easy to get grabbed
-Very difficult to get around projectile spam
-Recovery can get gimped/you can't air dodge once you are parallel to the stages edge. Terrible horizontal recovery.
-Laggy moves
-No projectile
- Seriously why didn't they give him barrels?
from my experience vs Lee's MK:
upangled f.tilt, reverse uptilt (his best), and high b.air can all reliably stop the tornado - when the tornado is used incorrectly. Simply having the tornado shuts down DK. Anytime DK is in the air or on platforms he's vulnerable for free damage and/or shriveling his already bad shield to uselessness.
the nado gains priority w/ mashing and duration, and as long as its not used in DK's face, the above 'counters', may only clash out (leaving MK an opportunity to close range), or completely fail and throw DK above MK - obviously the worst position.
MK is too short for rising b.air, which really sucks actually
if DK wants to beat MK he has to never approach and focus on trading hits, since thats the only time MK is really vulnerable:
upangled f.tilt to trade on SH approaches when b.air not viable
d.tilt + jab/roll back for close game
anytime DK gets put above MK, he just gets *****. upair combos, nado, shuttleloop, wait for DK to airdodge cuz thats what he always does. he has no f.air/d.air.
And i would admit MK is the only character who can true-edgeguard DK via shuttleloop.
DK should live to 150+ every stock no johns and he has to do better than that to win. He can kill MK w/ a random d.smash at 100 w/ good DI or giant puch at 80. A successful 9-wind can kill him at 40, but that would be silly.
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Snake vs DK is much more interesting. Snake being a much better character..but DK almost being designed to counter him.
DK's down B is his best move in this matchup. it detonates grounded grenades, outspaces his f.tilt, can force him in the air to get wrecked by upairs and b.air. Snake dishes out damage just as fast however and he still has the projectile to discourage DK from camping (but he can still plank pretty effectively)
snake's weight makes him combo'd well and DK has an easier time bullying snake off the stage additionally with cargo or any of his strong attacks. point being- DK has tools to effectively edgeguard snake as long as he's not too high..in which case, when DK is below him he still has tools to punish - upair, giantpunch, bait and downB.
some reason i find giant punch pretty easy to land on snake, probably because his style is similarly to attacking when the oponent is, since both characters suffer lag and will always trade hits if possible - except DK is like the only character who can contend w /snake.
snake's d.throw can be pretty vicious on DK's large frame.
if people have snake trouble, i highly recommend picking up DK. If you know the matchup better it can definitely feel to your advantage.
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i'm game to discuss any specific matchups since this is one of few areas i can contribute
upangled f.tilt, reverse uptilt (his best), and high b.air can all reliably stop the tornado - when the tornado is used incorrectly. Simply having the tornado shuts down DK. Anytime DK is in the air or on platforms he's vulnerable for free damage and/or shriveling his already bad shield to uselessness.
the nado gains priority w/ mashing and duration, and as long as its not used in DK's face, the above 'counters', may only clash out (leaving MK an opportunity to close range), or completely fail and throw DK above MK - obviously the worst position.
MK is too short for rising b.air, which really sucks actually
if DK wants to beat MK he has to never approach and focus on trading hits, since thats the only time MK is really vulnerable:
upangled f.tilt to trade on SH approaches when b.air not viable
d.tilt + jab/roll back for close game
anytime DK gets put above MK, he just gets *****. upair combos, nado, shuttleloop, wait for DK to airdodge cuz thats what he always does. he has no f.air/d.air.
And i would admit MK is the only character who can true-edgeguard DK via shuttleloop.
DK should live to 150+ every stock no johns and he has to do better than that to win. He can kill MK w/ a random d.smash at 100 w/ good DI or giant puch at 80. A successful 9-wind can kill him at 40, but that would be silly.
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Snake vs DK is much more interesting. Snake being a much better character..but DK almost being designed to counter him.
DK's down B is his best move in this matchup. it detonates grounded grenades, outspaces his f.tilt, can force him in the air to get wrecked by upairs and b.air. Snake dishes out damage just as fast however and he still has the projectile to discourage DK from camping (but he can still plank pretty effectively)
snake's weight makes him combo'd well and DK has an easier time bullying snake off the stage additionally with cargo or any of his strong attacks. point being- DK has tools to effectively edgeguard snake as long as he's not too high..in which case, when DK is below him he still has tools to punish - upair, giantpunch, bait and downB.
some reason i find giant punch pretty easy to land on snake, probably because his style is similarly to attacking when the oponent is, since both characters suffer lag and will always trade hits if possible - except DK is like the only character who can contend w /snake.
snake's d.throw can be pretty vicious on DK's large frame.
if people have snake trouble, i highly recommend picking up DK. If you know the matchup better it can definitely feel to your advantage.
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i'm game to discuss any specific matchups since this is one of few areas i can contribute
In my experience simply have a charged punch is enough to stop most MK's from using nado a lot.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Let's also not forget that DK's ledge attack under 100% is broken as hell, lol. Do anything, get punished, massive range.
DK's REAL problem lies in getting juggled. With a pitifully slow Dair, anyone slightly in front of and below DK makes a mistake if the fail to hit him back up. This allows him to take a lot of damage. Also, he's really big, and doesn't have a good Fair, which makes him combo-fodder. His weight + momentum break DOES make up for this, but sometimes not enough, especially vs MK who is the juggle/combo king.
IMO, this weakness is the only thing that keeps Marth alive in this MU.
DK's REAL problem lies in getting juggled. With a pitifully slow Dair, anyone slightly in front of and below DK makes a mistake if the fail to hit him back up. This allows him to take a lot of damage. Also, he's really big, and doesn't have a good Fair, which makes him combo-fodder. His weight + momentum break DOES make up for this, but sometimes not enough, especially vs MK who is the juggle/combo king.
IMO, this weakness is the only thing that keeps Marth alive in this MU.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
I just learned about what ESAM mentioned regarding Cargo Carry a few weeks ago. Hylian, Ripple, and Chewy explained it, I was quite shocked, but it's true.
Overall I have to agree with most of the sentiments here. DK is amazing on Japes, he has some great properties, but he's held back by a few significant weaknesses.
I would also like to mention that I agree with Cyphus in that I think a Tier List with less tiers and more characters per-tier is more appropriate for the game.
Overall I have to agree with most of the sentiments here. DK is amazing on Japes, he has some great properties, but he's held back by a few significant weaknesses.
I would also like to mention that I agree with Cyphus in that I think a Tier List with less tiers and more characters per-tier is more appropriate for the game.
gallax
Smash Hero
I think dk has a few gimmicks that can be match changing if you fall for it. If you practice against a good dk though and learn things like dont jump after you get hit by his downb or out of cargo>fthrow things get easier for you.
And i also think that falco destroys dk. Everything falco has is ridiculously good against dk.
And i also think that falco destroys dk. Everything falco has is ridiculously good against dk.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
I don't think Falco:DK is any more than 6:4 Falco. DK doesn't die until 200%+ and can kill Falco at like 80%.
It's definitely a disadvantage for DK, but he doesn't really care about laser damage and can avoid kill moves and survive until he racks enough damage to be able to keep forcing Falco to recover. Once he does, it only takes one good hit to kill him.
Did I mention he's fat and doesn't die? He's really... really fat... lol.
It's definitely a disadvantage for DK, but he doesn't really care about laser damage and can avoid kill moves and survive until he racks enough damage to be able to keep forcing Falco to recover. Once he does, it only takes one good hit to kill him.
Did I mention he's fat and doesn't die? He's really... really fat... lol.
gallax
Smash Hero
Thats why he can be a threat to snake yo. Hes SO HEAVY. Utilt doesn't kill until hes at like 145% which sucks. Plus sometimes you can read an airdodge and he b-reversal a donkey punch right in your face when u try to grab him and uses his invincibility frames to beat the grab. SO DUMB!!! lol.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
Haha, exactly. Stupid fat monkey.
Anyway, I always feel a need to point out that 6:4 is a perfectly "fine" and "winnable" matchup since so many people in this community seem to think otherwise. 6:4 is a manageable disadvantage, which is why I don't think Falco destroys DK at all.
Anyway, I always feel a need to point out that 6:4 is a perfectly "fine" and "winnable" matchup since so many people in this community seem to think otherwise. 6:4 is a manageable disadvantage, which is why I don't think Falco destroys DK at all.
Crow!
Smash Lord
Since we are doing all of D Tier this week, I present my usual data for D-Tier characters.
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
Donkey Kong, despite being the top of D Tier, is arguably performing the worst of any of those characters. Whether this is because the character is just not up to snuff or because the well known near-auto-lose matchup scares away all his would-be champions is open for debate.
I will say that Donkey Kong has rarely given me as much trouble as most characters do, despite Link mains generally claiming it's an abysmal matchup. Maybe I just play against a lot more DKs than most people and am more used to it, I don't know.
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
Donkey Kong, despite being the top of D Tier, is arguably performing the worst of any of those characters. Whether this is because the character is just not up to snuff or because the well known near-auto-lose matchup scares away all his would-be champions is open for debate.
I will say that Donkey Kong has rarely given me as much trouble as most characters do, despite Link mains generally claiming it's an abysmal matchup. Maybe I just play against a lot more DKs than most people and am more used to it, I don't know.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Some of you guys are just now learning to hold up in Cargo Carry? In the immortal words of Terry Bogard. "GET SHERIOUS!"
I think Crow's data has the most interesting information for Luigi, who despite having what is a terrible approach game, he still does quite amazingly well. The good DKs we have though don't seem to be keeping his results up like the good luigis, but I think Luigi is probably quite more popular overall too, which would give him an extra boost while DK tends to be an unpopular character with really good mains mixed in.
Edit: Actually it seems I misread that. I see that it does take popularity into account. Luigi just seems to have two beastly outliers. But could their success be partly determined by what regions allow the infinite? DK still gets chaingrabbed hard even without an infinite ban, but Luigi much prefers it since he can't be CGed at all. Just an interesting thought.
I think Crow's data has the most interesting information for Luigi, who despite having what is a terrible approach game, he still does quite amazingly well. The good DKs we have though don't seem to be keeping his results up like the good luigis, but I think Luigi is probably quite more popular overall too, which would give him an extra boost while DK tends to be an unpopular character with really good mains mixed in.
Edit: Actually it seems I misread that. I see that it does take popularity into account. Luigi just seems to have two beastly outliers. But could their success be partly determined by what regions allow the infinite? DK still gets chaingrabbed hard even without an infinite ban, but Luigi much prefers it since he can't be CGed at all. Just an interesting thought.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Cable, arguably the best DK doesn't enter tournaments frequently. He's frequently places top at tourneys here in NJ.
Falco is really stupid for DK. IMO his worst MU.
Falco is really stupid for DK. IMO his worst MU.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I shield stabbed Chaz's marth on a BF platform with FULLY CHARGED UP SMASH! Killed at 60%. Hell yeah hands in the middle of his shield.
CO18
Smash Hero
Dedede is pretty bad for dk too
Ripple
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IMHO DK is better than most of the characters above him. its just that his popularity really drags him down along with his 1 near impossible match up. together that makes him drop at least 4 spots on the tier list.
the mere fact that DK can kill ANYBODY at <100% including snake is completely and utterly ridiculous. and its not even a problem getting the opponent up to that %. DK needs like 7-10 hits on the opponent to get them into kill %. (did you know that cargo>up throw> up air on snake is a frame trap? doesn't matter what he does, he will get hit with up air whether he pulls a grenade, air dodges, or even dairs/nairs)
the opponent should always be afraid of DKs power no matter who they are or what %. 1 slip up could lead to a death that's 20-30% premature or even a shield break, which I'm surprised no one has mentioned, which leads to a death at even earlier % if they can't mash out fast enough.
the mere fact that DK can kill ANYBODY at <100% including snake is completely and utterly ridiculous. and its not even a problem getting the opponent up to that %. DK needs like 7-10 hits on the opponent to get them into kill %. (did you know that cargo>up throw> up air on snake is a frame trap? doesn't matter what he does, he will get hit with up air whether he pulls a grenade, air dodges, or even dairs/nairs)
the opponent should always be afraid of DKs power no matter who they are or what %. 1 slip up could lead to a death that's 20-30% premature or even a shield break, which I'm surprised no one has mentioned, which leads to a death at even earlier % if they can't mash out fast enough.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Most stuff that people said is true.
I think if MK couldn't edgeguard DK FOREVER DK would win that MU.
Right now I think Dedede and Falco are DKs worst MUs... there are other difficult ones, but I think they should all be winable.
I think if MK couldn't edgeguard DK FOREVER DK would win that MU.
Right now I think Dedede and Falco are DKs worst MUs... there are other difficult ones, but I think they should all be winable.
iFudge
Banned via Warnings
yea i agree with everybody bout dk :O
imo i think somebodys pocket mk is harder to fight then somebody pocket falco.
imo i think somebodys pocket mk is harder to fight then somebody pocket falco.
Grizzer
Smash Journeyman
D3 doesnt count as a matchup for DK, we dont speak of it
/agree
This MU is not bad as long as you know your options and are smart. 9 wind will kill MK around 80 (I think), DK has a few options to stop nado, and never underestimate how frustrating DK's survivability can be for a MK player.
crifer
Smash Lord
Grizzer
Smash Journeyman
yea guys, you should test a sweetspotted 9 wind on jiggz on battlefield at 25% ^^ tell me the results without DI teehee
BigPapaSmurf
Smash Rookie
How I deal with falco's lasers is let him camp you to about 45%(but don't make it too obvious lol) so he can't CG>dair spike you, after that i either SHAD or PS them. If you predict falco's side-B, such as when he's recovering, headbutt him into the ground. At low percents up-B racks up like 30% and at mid-high percents, f-smash, d-smash and giant punch will take care of that bird. Also, never roll behind falco, or you will get f-smashed.
DK has to have FAVORABLE matchups against popular tourney characters to be considered "good."
DDD isn't even popular anymore, so we can't keep blaming a matchup that we all should have a 2ndary for anyway.
DDD isn't even the problem, its DK. DK loses to Falco, Oli, MK, and Diddy. And he doesn't have a clear advantage on anyone popular. Best case, he goes even (snake/marth). He just happens to be a very tricky/gimmicky character that gets exploited by campyness and his size + deadzones when above.
Not that MK/Oli/Diddy is impossible, but if you're fighting someone who's VERY good with any of those and doesn't show a complete lack of the matchup knowledge, I dont see why DK should win outside a couple good 'reads'...which are becoming less likely as the game infinitely spirals into a game of carefulness, leads, and campyness.
Only way DK wouldn't have a 40:60 loss to falco is if theres no LGL and he planks. Either way, falco hard-counters him on stage. DK is stupidly easy to spam, run away from, Jab in his face, grab to chainthrow, and punish his poor shield (f.smash). A good falco wont take risks that would allow them to get 'read' and smashed. They should just avoid those situations by camping in every possible instance (winning or losing), unless DK is planking.
DDD isn't even popular anymore, so we can't keep blaming a matchup that we all should have a 2ndary for anyway.
DDD isn't even the problem, its DK. DK loses to Falco, Oli, MK, and Diddy. And he doesn't have a clear advantage on anyone popular. Best case, he goes even (snake/marth). He just happens to be a very tricky/gimmicky character that gets exploited by campyness and his size + deadzones when above.
Not that MK/Oli/Diddy is impossible, but if you're fighting someone who's VERY good with any of those and doesn't show a complete lack of the matchup knowledge, I dont see why DK should win outside a couple good 'reads'...which are becoming less likely as the game infinitely spirals into a game of carefulness, leads, and campyness.
Only way DK wouldn't have a 40:60 loss to falco is if theres no LGL and he planks. Either way, falco hard-counters him on stage. DK is stupidly easy to spam, run away from, Jab in his face, grab to chainthrow, and punish his poor shield (f.smash). A good falco wont take risks that would allow them to get 'read' and smashed. They should just avoid those situations by camping in every possible instance (winning or losing), unless DK is planking.
At some point DK just has to get up from the edge since its very rare for him to have a % lead against Falco. In this MU DK pretty much relies on dealing some dmg and finishing him off quick. Falco also happens to be my hardest MU right now. I suck at Powershielding those F***** lazers >__>
I kinda agree with you Cyphus. Being able to live long and hitting hard was something that worked very well 08 and perhaps even 09 but not anymore really.
I kinda agree with you Cyphus. Being able to live long and hitting hard was something that worked very well 08 and perhaps even 09 but not anymore really.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Getting comboed easily is pretty bad news for Donkey Kong when you're getting edgetrapped. Even if you can technically survive to high percents, losing options on the ledge after incurring over 100% is one of his biggest weaknesses. Aside from ROB, Bowser, and probably Ganondorf as well, Donkey Kong has some of the worst edge options in the game that can be covered on reaction with kill moves or at minimum a reset (well, under 100% he's better off with his ledge attack though).
Ripple
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DK doesn't have a bad edge game.... I love your constant underestimation of DK's abilities.
DK's ledge options can not be reacted to on command with a kill move at all since he has so many mix ups on the ledge
aside from normal ledge options, DK can drop down and do rising up air to make them back off, he can drop down and up-b and then hold down so he lands laglessly on stage rather than edge snap. or he can jump and then use up-b and land laglessly on a platform. OR he can even do a jump get up and buffer side-b so his momentum is stopped and if the opponent is right there waiting for DK to do something then boom, shield break.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
lol oops wrong thread 
Te-Jay
Smash Apprentice
With DK vs Falco, its best to let him camp you to around 45%. Up B OOS really helps here when falco is close. What some people don't know, is that DK's b air outright beats falco's side b. For stage cp's, I always CP either YI or Brinstar. Mostly Brinstar. Japes isn't an option against falco
Chaosgriffin
Smash Ace
I also like to pick PS1, or Lylat for Falco, although YI, or brinstar is probably better
¿Qué?
Smash Champion
I'll start CPing correctly with DK when I get all those techniques down. The only reason I never CP'd Yoshi's Island is the fact that I hardly knew anything. XD!
Chaos. I also saw your fight against wolf. I'm not too sure you should CP YI against Wolf.. My wolf main friend, floW and I were watching your match, and decided to be weird and both choose DK and Wolf as you both did and choose the same exact stage with the same controller slots... lolol..
Well we discovered that Wolf's side B will always be sweet spotted because of the awkward leveling of the stage, making you take *** loads of damage. Just be careful with that next time..
If he didn't ban Lylat, then you should have totally gone there. Lololol