Alright guys, we've got **** to do

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

As we all know, Snake's metagame has being stalled for a long time now. At Apex only one Snake cracked top 13, and that is Ally finishing at a disappointing 5th. It may be that Snake indeed isn't as good as we all thought before, and there is nothing new to learn about him. But I believe a fair share of the blame also lies on us as the Snake community for failing to do anything to expand our metagame. Long story short other characters are catching up and surpassing us while we are at a standstill.

I believe that Snake is a better character than what we showed at Apex, not we need to prove that by improving on our metagame.

First of all, I think we need to experiment with buffering, as that is the prime reason that Brood a Japanese Olimar was able to beat both Ally and M2K and finish second at APEX. I'll quote a post by dabuz on buffering:

dabuz said:
ok, moderately long read about buffering, in the last 10 frames of an attack, we input another attack, if the attack beforehand has after-lag (dair) you have to apply that into the last 10 frames of it meaning we have to buffer during that lag, because buffer only affects the begging of the next wove, but the buffer makes it so, for them most part there is no start up time on our attack, so, an example is fsmash's hitbox it out by frame 2 or something like that AND THERE IS NO LANDING LAG, that also means we can do things like airdodge->1 frame startup spot dodge without landing lag, we can use any of our smashes or side-bs into another smash, side-b, and move that involves running/ a pivot, and a buffered jump (olimar even jumps like 5 frames faster) which we can probably time into buffered fairs or nairs as well, also, we can buffer almost anything OOS, as the moment we are hit on shield,BUFFER THAN ATTACK THEN DROP YOUR SHIELD, the timing is almost impossible, but we can do buffered attacks if we buffer an instant before shield drop, i have a feeling that, with these buffers, we can probably add an extra BUFFERED AERIAL to any combo and still have it a true combo, ex: dthrow->upsmash->(buffer it beforehand) GUARANTEED UPAIR, another note, we can fastfall and airdodge at the same time and our fall speed is increased by about 50% during the airdodge time, and if we release the fastfall quickly we can probably have another fastfall airdodge already buffered making our character's floatiness much less of a danger, he loves to buffer his side-b on the ground, it seems to be them move we have the most options out of while buffered, also, i've been doing this for a while without realizing, but we can buffer almost any attack (fair is best choice though) out of being grabbed or even hit by an attack, ok, thats all i have on his buffering ATM, when i get some more time to test i'll point out more ****

Also Ph1ny3 made this post a while ago about crouching to help us techchase:

Ph1ny3 said:
So I have a question:
As we all know, there isn't much of a lag penalty to buffering things out of a crouch, including dash. I noticed while practicing tech chasing with snake dthrowthat if you crouch before they make a move, if they roll backwards, your body frame slows them down, making that side much easier to cover. If it is possible to buffer shield, dash, and other moves out of crouch to still cover the other options, would this make some of the characters with a good backwards roll less effective in playing against dthrow?

Edit: In fact, if you buffer the crawl backwards at the right time, they won't roll behind you, like the dthrow vs. Charizard effect

Lets step our metagame up!

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 9, 2010

Crouching adds what... 3 frames to the thing. We already have a -1 advantage. So, now we have a -4 advantage. Hmm... I think this would be perfect against the few or so that have bad get-up attacks if this does what I think it does. I'll have to try that out later.

Yume, this is what SuSa would have done if he was here. Yume for SuSa subsitute.

Blacknight99923 · Aug 9, 2010

does crawl go under get up attacks hitboxes?

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

lol I wish I was as good as SuSa with Snake.

I'm actually contemplating switching to Falco (ironic as I made this thread I know). I hope the fact that im practicing Falco BDACUS and Phantasm cancel as we speak doesnt mean I'm a main switcher lol.

Blacknight99923 · Aug 9, 2010

well technically it does..... but any character you plan on using should be the best you can realistically make it before you use it in a tournament

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

But Soren you do make a good point, if crawl DOES get under certain chars' get up attacks (Ganon?? DK?? CF??) that would be amazing.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 9, 2010

I would not count on the get-up attacks being evaded all that much. The crouching causes snake to lie horizontal. That puts his face closer to the person. So, he will likely get hit anyway from being to close to someone's ***. All this requires more testing.

Blacknight99923 said:
does crawl go under get up attacks hitboxes?

Some character's get-up attacks, such as G&W, attack away from Snake once, before coming towards snake to hit him. This attack away is a good sign to spot for when trying to react. It tells you they will be attacking and all you have to do is shield. Crouching does not evade those get-up attacks I believe (maybe for a few characters), but it sounds like crouching prevents people from rolling backwards entirely.

If you can imagine, tech chasing near the ledge prevents the Froll from going very far, if you can see the get-up attack happen before it hits you you can shield it, and if crouching prevents Broll completely... you can see how you could really limit characters from a tech chase making it much easier to get that regrab.

Yumewomiteru said:
lol I wish I was as good as SuSa with Snake.

I'm actually contemplating switching to Falco (ironic as I made this thread I know). I hope the fact that im practicing Falco BDACUS and Phantasm cancel as we speak doesnt mean I'm a main switcher lol.

Don't switch, just dual main. ICs are a real headache for Falco. Until you learn the match-up, having that secondary for ICs would help a lot.

ZTD | TECHnology · Aug 9, 2010

I may sit down and do some testing and get back with you guys. I need to mindlessly indulge myself in something anyway.

-Ran · Aug 9, 2010

All the tip top players already use buffering out of Air dodge landings. It's just highly dependent on characters. Snake really doesn't have much he gains from it, since none of his aerials end before you would hit the ground in a normal hop. Snake can only gain from buffering out of shield, or other attacks. The only thing you can gain from falling + buffering is an immediate mortar slide when you land, and the ability to raise your shield or go into a spot dodge faster to avoid an attack.

Brood didn't beat M2k because of he knew how to buffer, and M2k didn't. M2k buffers moves just as much as they did. M2k was just out played in a match up that no one seemed to adapt to fast enough. M2k though, had the largest target on him out of everyone at Apex, and you can be assured that they studied his videos intently before coming to the US. They knew how he'd play, and he had no information on them. He failed to adapt against Brood, but he didn't lose due to not understanding a mechanic as simple as buffering.

The main thing is that buffering lets you do things as quickly as possible in the game. There is still all the normal lag, except you remove input lag. In the case of air dodging, you remove landing lag + input lag.

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

Even if everything you say is tru Ran, Brood still gained renown for being able to punish alot more moves because he was able to buffer attacks when his shield got hit. If we learn to do so we can punish more than we did before.

And you seem like a very smart and knowledgeble player Ran, what do YOU think we should do to step up Snake's metagame?

Blacknight99923 · Aug 9, 2010

buffering isn't new at all.

is shielding out of crouch/crawl still 1-2 frames?

Attila_ · Aug 9, 2010

i dont think snake's metagame will be increased by things like 'we need to buffer more'. instead, its the answers to the little questions, like how much hitstun our moves have, how many frames jump is, what we can crouch under, stages we can outcamp characters we normally cant outcamp on, and things like that. there is lots to be done, but i dont think this is one of the more important things.

im actually experimenting a lot with crouching atm, and quite frankly, i think it actually adds quite a bit to snake. it makes almost any aerial approach punishable, at the very least threatening your opponent to think twice about them. and dtilt isnt actually half bad, either.

-Ran · Aug 9, 2010

I'm trying to find the code to do frame testing of hitstun from moves. The 'Debug Pause code' isn't working on my Wii. =/

But, we need to learn:
Hit stun of moves.
Shield stun of moves.
Safe range of Nikita.
Safer ways to land on the stage after Cypher.

As players, we each need to work on:
Reads
Punishing
Tech Chasing

Seriously, one grab should lend itself to at least 30 damage, or a kill. Learn to do it on reaction, rather than prediction. Then, with reaction+prediction, you can go total beast mode on even the hardest characters to tech chase. You realize against Olimar, with one down throw, you can almost take him to a killing percent due to how his back roll isn't an option?

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

shmot said:
i dont think snake's metagame will be increased by things like 'we need to buffer more'. instead, its the answers to the little questions, like how much hitstun our moves have, how many frames jump is, what we can crouch under, stages we can outcamp characters we normally cant outcamp on, and things like that. there is lots to be done, but i dont think this is one of the more important things.

im actually experimenting a lot with crouching atm, and quite frankly, i think it actually adds quite a bit to snake. it makes almost any aerial approach punishable, at the very least threatening your opponent to think twice about them. and dtilt isnt actually half bad, either.

THANK YOU SHMOT, I've being saying this for half a year now.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 9, 2010

I got a laptop with SD card capabilities right now, so if I knew how to hack my wii, I would install some way to do frame testing.

Blacknight99923 · Aug 9, 2010

like if you can shield out of crouch normally and you Dthrow somewhere near the ledge (facing hte ledge) and crouch you have an easy way of getting like 50% or more in if your fast enough

snakes tech chase needs to be improved to 30- 40% everytime we land grabs.

I think in regards to nikita it can be safely used with a Mine present in front of you. due to the nature of the nikita it allows for creative mindgames. I also think that I might try using hte nikita as the edge guard against vertical characters more than the up smash (since the up smash can be unreliable) not to mention assuming you can get the nikita out several characters (marth, maybe falco and diddy) will be to busy recoverying if we fire the nikita from a safe distance from the ledge.

that being said its easy to get ***** if you use a nikita incorrectly

-Ran · Aug 9, 2010

But really, there isn't a panacea out there to make Snake better than he already is. He's always been a punishment based character. The difference now is that players are making less mistakes, and so we have to step up our read and reaction game. Beyond that, we need to make every mistake they have amount to 30% damage or greater.

ZTD | TECHnology · Aug 9, 2010

After some testing I found this:

:shiek:

all have get up attacks that hit in front of them first giving you enough time to react even if you misread them.

both have get up attacks that can be completed evaded while Proned.

Everyone else has quick enough get up attacks to punish you if you misread. Popo's is extremely fast.

The data above assumes both of you are on an even level.

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

I don't like the idea that the only thing we have left is solely based on reads (which is a bit luck based at high level play because top plays have minimal habits) and reaction time (something that is mostly genetic and can only be reliablely improved on through prediction (which is the same as reads)). I like to think that there are things that Snakes can come up with that will shift the options game a little bit more to our favor. Even if they are just more (doesnt have to be better) options to have at our disposal.

-Ran · Aug 9, 2010

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235804
That thread has pretty much everything one would need to know about d-throw.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 9, 2010

You forgot G&W in there Chase. But yeah, I forgot I reset my wii data awhile back, so I do not have wolf, jiggs or TL lol So, I cannot do squat with them.

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

That thread can be improved upon. For example, both MK and Popo has the save Towards-Away status for getup attacks. But MK's getup attack is slow enough that you can run/walk forward a lil and still be able to powershield. But Popo's comes out insanely fast taht you cant. Plus I think the rolling speed is not negligible contrary to what the thread says. Plus it could list out common/uncommon options that we can do and what options they cover.

Also, thanks alot Technical Chase! We should be able to techchase Samuses and Ganons even better now!

ZTD | TECHnology · Aug 9, 2010

I sure did forget him. Thanks.

And that thread is quite useful. But at least now we know we can Prone under two (garbage) character's get ups :D

And no problem. Let me know if you guys need me to test any other stuff. Any bit of research can help and I want to help with the metagame we have here.

Blacknight99923 · Aug 9, 2010

I think in general the only way to make snake better is to improve as players in reality.

-Ran · Aug 9, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
I don't like the idea that the only thing we have left is solely based on reads (which is a bit luck based at high level play because top plays have minimal habits) and reaction time (something that is mostly genetic and can only be reliablely improved on through prediction (which is the same as reads)).

But that's just it. Snake as a character has always been about punishing our opponents during a match. One mistake would equal a forward tilt, or at a distance them getting hit by a grenade. If they failed to focus on where me placed our c4, they would take damage or be killed. Snake doesn't have many ways to force damage onto someone, unless they make a mistake, or denied options to the extent that they are left in a position where Snake can punish them.

Why is Ally good? Superior reaction time and reads.

Low level players continue to attempt to thread the needle with attacks that aren't going to hit. Instead of doing damage, they put themselves into a position where they are going to get hit instead, or put into a worse position that before. The Metagame for Snake isn't going to change. Snake isn't a glamorous character in terms of what he can do. There's a reason that 19 or so characters in the game consider themselves to have an even match up with Snake. They recognize that the only way Snake is going to truly do damage to them is when they make mistakes. This doesn't make Snake a bad character, it just means that as players we have to be prepared to capitalize on the mistakes that our opponents are going to make.

Snake can force mistakes with:
Retreating pivot grabs
Grenade counters
Grenade throwing/cooking.
Mortar Slide to aerial.
Power shielding. <----- Get better at this.
Unique move selection. Up Tilt at low percents to stop aerial approaches, and so on.

etecoon · Aug 9, 2010

Yumewomiteru said:
(which is a bit luck based at high level play because top plays have minimal habits)

this is a myth IMO, all people have habits, good players just have better habits.

there's lots of little things you can do to make your snake better but I think in the end he's a very heavily reads based character

Yumewomiteru said:
MK's getup attack is slow enough that you can run/walk forward a lil and still be able to powershield.

this is true of a lot of characters, most you can run and shield before their get up attack comes out which allows you to cover both roll away and get up attack most of the time

-Ran said:
Why is Ally good? Superior reaction time and reads.

I've never seen why people say this, I consistently see him get hit by stuff that worse players avoid on reaction, IMO he THINKS faster than anyone else, nothing more

Attila_ · Aug 9, 2010

Technical_Chase said:
After some testing I found this:

:shiek: all have get up attacks that hit in front of them first giving you enough time to react even if you misread them.

both have get up attacks that can be completed evaded while Proned.

Everyone else has quick enough get up attacks to punish you if you misread. Popo's is extremely fast.

The data above assumes both of you are on an even level.

so then the question is, can we crouch under getup attacks on a stage like yi or parts of ps1?

ZTD | TECHnology · Aug 9, 2010

I can test that tomorrow if you want.

DtJ Hilt · Aug 9, 2010

lmao love the thread name <3

Underload · Aug 9, 2010

For what it's worth, Snake can jab lock the bigger members of the cast. Here's my info I've been meaning to post for a while regarding that. This is version 0.1, it's not even finished. As you can see I don't have descriptions for most of these. I've only run through the cast once and I'm sure I made some mistakes.

~ Yes (Easy)

~ Yes (Medium)

~ No

~ Yes (Very Easy)

~ Unknown (I can only get 3 hits)

~ No

~ Yes (Easy)

~ No

~ No (Too Short)

~ Unknown (I can only get 2 hits)

:dedede:

~ Yes (Very Easy)

~ No

~ Yes (Medium)

~ No

~ Yes (Medium)

~

No

Yes (Medium)

~ Yes (Easy)

:samus:

~ Yes (Easy)

:shiek: ~ No

~ Yes (Very Hard)

~ No

~ Yes (Medium)

~ Yes (Hard)

:yoshi:

~ Yes (Very Hard)

~ No

~ No

It's a very finnicky jab lock to master.

1. Snake is much too tall to be an efficient jab locker.
2. only one of Snake's jab1 hitboxes can make opponents bounce and it's the one closest to him.
3. Snake doesn't move quickly enough to continue jab locks, so in some cases you can only get 1 or 2 hits off before it's physically impossible to continue.

Fsmash is a HUGE possibility after all these. Utilt, C4 stick, and bair as well.

To continue on a totally different tangent, I'm going to learn two main things with my Snake now. Nothing that hasn't been mentioned before, but I just really want to stress the importance of these things.

1. buffering moves, especially while landing.
2. ways to wean Snakes from relying on the 'prediction' playstyle.

There have to be a few ways for Snake to implement traditional spacing well.

Attila_ · Aug 9, 2010

that would be awesome, TC. i think its important to position the opponent on the tips of the slants, so that snake is placed below them, with their hitboxes going parallel or the other way. otherwise it defs wont work.

EDIT: just saw underload's post, and thought i'd add that you can get a jab --> force getup --> fsmash on diddy and mk. not true jab locks, cause you can't do them more than once, but if it means an fsmash, its worth knowing.

Underload · Aug 9, 2010

Yeah, by the way, the entries that are labeled as 'No' don't all mean the same thing. At times, no mean you can't get a jab off at all, while at other times it means you can't get a second jab off after getting one. Ambigous as **** data, I know. I'll definitely update when I get time.

Tech-Nelium the Shark · Aug 9, 2010

im not sure about the frames on dash attack and the earliest snake can mortar slide(MS) but the only use of buffering a move after being in the air is maybe moving faster and depending on the frames using buffered dash attack and MS to hit them out of a punish like a pivot grab maybe... i don't know?????? Snake ain't #2

Yumewomiteru · Aug 9, 2010

Snake might not be #2, but thats more reason for us to find ways to expand his metagame.

I'm not too clear on the finer details of buffering, it goes deeper than just start up your move as quick as you can apparently. The olimar board is talking about it in details so I'll lurk there for a while lol.

I know buffering a dacus (BDACUS) cuts out the running lag and goes immediately into a dash attack/dacus, that will help us tech chase at the very least.

And Hilt yes I totally stole the title from you =p

edit: I'll update the OP sometimes soon with some of the info added in this thread, but I think it would be better for us to update the dthrow techchase thread with the new data and create a new thread for the jab locks.

Tech-Nelium the Shark · Aug 9, 2010

i mean after snake air-dodges to the ground and you could maybe buffer the dash or MS. snakes aerials are so bad near the ground except maybe bair. I made a post a while ago about how snake isn't #2 and everyone pretty much said not true. I think snake is one of the most balanced. Great ground and camping game but horrible air game, get juggled, and doesn't badly beat most of his MU. One of the best MUs is against the high tier ice climbers because he just has was to really screw up their game. But he goes even with a bunch of worse characters. snake is #2 because of ally, no disrespect to other top snakes

Underload · Aug 10, 2010

I'm going to learn BDACUS right now, along with some other buffering tricks. I'll report back.

edit1: Snake needs some decent frame traps >.>

Blacknight99923 · Aug 10, 2010

I'm not sure what we can do frame trap wise. I can think of maybe utilizing crawl a lot more with nades on platforms and crawling under blasts. I think getting footstools with C4 shenanigans would be great too,

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 10, 2010

SH Uair is auto-canceled with no lag. That could be buffed out of.

I'm just going to say not to spend too much time on jab locking. jab->fsmash in those situations is always better than a jab lock.

-Ran · Aug 10, 2010

It is, but you might as well short hop air dodge. Short hop auto canceled U air's hit box is pretty worthless. Short hop Uair auto cancel is best used to make your opponent think you've gone into a laggy aerial, so that they attempt to punish you. I've gotten a good bit of kills by doing this.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 10, 2010

-Ran said:
It is, but you might as well short hop air dodge. Short hop auto canceled U air's hit box is pretty worthless.

Alternative to hitting people on platforms instead of utilt. Only use I can see to using it.

Alright guys, we've got **** to do

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