Lucario Metagame Discussion

Past Discussions[collapse=Olimar MU]
[16:07] <@FlameWaveK> I like the olimar MU but I don't know where to start o.o
[16:08] <@FlameWaveK> slightly less liking it now that olimars are only NOW learning buffering and Upsmash OOS
[16:08] <RT> Watch Pikmin order.
[16:08] <RT> ALWAYS.
[16:08] <@FlameWaveK> ^
[16:08] <RT> Apex has taught people that.
[16:08] <SonicFalco> hmm well I got some new info on the matchup alittle
[16:08] <@FlameWaveK> Pikmin order is super important
[16:08] <@FlameWaveK> You don't need to know what pikmin order combos they can do really
[16:08] <SonicFalco> but always watch the purple pikin
[16:08] <@FlameWaveK> you just need to know what starts that bull****.
[16:08] <SonicFalco> the purple ones are a *****
[16:09] <@FlameWaveK> Purples aren't that bad for me lately
[16:09] <RT> Purple is good for pretty much everything except for grabbing, but its throws are good.
[16:09] <@FlameWaveK> Ever since I learned to powershield them
[16:09] <@FlameWaveK> Did you know
[16:09] <@FlameWaveK> that
[16:09] <@FlameWaveK> our Fsmash will outrange purple grab
[16:09] <@FlameWaveK> and purple fsmash
[16:09] <RT> Yeah.
[16:09] <@FlameWaveK> I've personally outranged dsmash ONCE with stutterstep fsmash too
[16:09] <RT> But everything else about purple is good.
[16:09] <SonicFalco> yep tilts hardly work on them
[16:10] <@FlameWaveK> just shield or fair them and you'll be fine
[16:10] <SonicFalco> kk
[16:10] <@FlameWaveK> mostly shield
[16:10] <SonicFalco> lol true
[16:10] <@FlameWaveK> Anyways
[16:10] <SonicFalco> then they got to grab u
[16:10] <@FlameWaveK> Getting up VS Olimar is a *****.
[16:10] <@FlameWaveK> on the ledge
[16:10] <@FlameWaveK> its basically waiting for them to waste their pikmin
[16:10] <@FlameWaveK> and hopping you can get back on
[16:11] <SonicFalco> oh yeah
[16:11] <RT> They can mix up between throwing and grabbing while you're on the edge.
[16:11] <@FlameWaveK> if you wait too long
[16:11] <RT> and smashing.
[16:11] <RT> So dumb.
[16:11] <SonicFalco> when they waste the pikmin combo like hell
[16:11] <@FlameWaveK> they can grab you on the ledge too
[16:11] <@FlameWaveK> if they give you space though
[16:11] <@FlameWaveK> fair back to Aurasphere works wonders
[16:11] <Trela> Yeah, it's ********.
[16:11] <SonicFalco> well fair to nair works too
[16:12] <@FlameWaveK> even getting back up with aurasphere is good if you read a grab
[16:12] <@FlameWaveK> if you're going to nair
[16:12] <SonicFalco> dont give them time to restock on pikmin
[16:12] <@FlameWaveK> might as wel
[16:12] <@FlameWaveK> do it back from the onset
[16:12] <@FlameWaveK> so you can reap those invincibility frames
[16:12] <@FlameWaveK> you have 21 off a perfect ledgedrop
[16:12] <SonicFalco> lol no pikmin no grabs
[16:13] <@FlameWaveK> yeah
[16:13] <SonicFalco> and no recovery on ledge
[16:13] <@FlameWaveK> capitilize
[16:13] <@FlameWaveK> when they have 3 or less pikmin
[16:13] <SonicFalco> true
[16:13] <@FlameWaveK> You guys should already know how to force olimar back offstage if he's already there though
[16:14] <@FlameWaveK> if not
[16:14] <@FlameWaveK> a litle reminder
[16:14] <SonicFalco> but when all pikmin is on deck stay back
[16:14] <@FlameWaveK> Fsmash is da bomb, and even if they airdodge through, a grab or uptilt right after will get him
[16:14] <@FlameWaveK> Fsmash will kill him if he's trying to jump uair
[16:14] <@FlameWaveK> if you sucessfully thrown him off
[16:14] <@FlameWaveK> try to guess which way he'll come back
[16:15] <@FlameWaveK> they'll either go high
[16:15] <@FlameWaveK> or go low
[16:15] <SonicFalco> lol
[16:15] <@FlameWaveK> they ussually only go high if they notice you going low
[16:15] <RT> Olimar planking with uair.
[16:15] <@FlameWaveK> what about it?
[16:15] <Trela> I just SDI upwards when he Uairs me. Works all the time.
[16:15] <@FlameWaveK> ^
[16:15] <@FlameWaveK> not enough people do this lol
[16:15] <Trela> Denti got 3 Uairs on me, and not ONE of them did knockback.
[16:15] <@FlameWaveK> although lately I've been experimenting not SDIing
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> because
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> I don't want to take
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> 2 uairs in a row
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> lol
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> they can follow-up that **** like mad
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> >>
[16:16] <RT> Usmash->usmash at low percents for Oli is ********.
[16:16] <Trela> I do the same against G&W and his Nair, as well.
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> yeah
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> SDI up?
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> hm
[16:16] <Trela> Mhmm.
[16:16] <@FlameWaveK> I'll implement that
[16:17] <SonicFalco> hmm
[16:17] <RT> just be careful, because they can follow your SDI.
[16:17] <@FlameWaveK> I ussually don't have a problem VS his nair though
[16:18] <@FlameWaveK> I want to tell everyone right now, if its not obvious
[16:18] <@FlameWaveK> but
[16:18] <@FlameWaveK> don't land back into olimar, at all, ever. never.
[16:19] <@FlameWaveK> or tech into him either
[16:19] <@FlameWaveK> eating
[16:19] <@FlameWaveK> double hit
[16:19] <@FlameWaveK> dsmash
[16:19] <@FlameWaveK> is the worst feeling
[16:19] <@FlameWaveK> ever
[16:21] <Pitbull> spare the whites kills the blues and purples
[16:34] <iRJi> Also.
[16:34] <@FlameWaveK> I think
[16:34] <@FlameWaveK> the problem is getting in olimar
[16:34] <iRJi> The next person to blow up my AIM is getting blocked >_>
[16:34] <Infin> Save your second jumpppppp
[16:34] <@FlameWaveK> So far with the improvements to their metagame
[16:34] <SonicFalco> ?
[16:34] <@FlameWaveK> I think we're going to have more trouble
[16:34] <@FlameWaveK> **** brood lol
[16:34] <iRJi> Anyway, what have you all talked about?
[16:34] <SonicFalco> wow
[16:34] <SonicFalco> Oli
[16:34] <@FlameWaveK> So far we talked about the basics
[16:34] <@FlameWaveK> not landing into him
[16:35] <@FlameWaveK> what to do offstage vs him
[16:35] <@FlameWaveK> keeping him offstage-ish
[16:35] <Infin> Has anyone tried the 1 frame FP against Oli in a match yet?
[16:35] <iRJi> Let's see
[16:35] <@FlameWaveK> its risky
[16:35] <@FlameWaveK> but it works
[16:35] <@FlameWaveK> after a fair/uair cross-up
[16:35] <iRJi> Did you guys mention that your fair beats out all of Olimars Pikman?
[16:36] <@FlameWaveK> yep
[16:36] <@FlameWaveK> BEST MOVE VS OLIMAR
[16:36] <@FlameWaveK> fair
[16:36] <@FlameWaveK> for reals
[16:36] <@FlameWaveK> swats pikmin away, gimps his sorry ***.
[16:36] <iRJi> What about because of that Olimar can't camp you and you can be really aggressive agains't him?
[16:36] <@FlameWaveK> Olimar can still % camp you
[16:37] <Infin> Especially at the edge of a stage.
[16:37] <Pitbull> You're gonna have to be aggressive against Olimar but not blind aggression works
[16:37] <iRJi> He can't do much, actually
[16:37] <@FlameWaveK> but I find it hard to be aggressive
[16:37] <SonicFalco> I see
[16:37] <iRJi> You can literally not take percent from the pikman if you do it right lol
[16:37] <Infin> Shield push with DAir or Ftilt off the stage <3
[16:38] <SonicFalco> jabs also help in this equation
[16:38] <@FlameWaveK> jabs da bess
[16:38] <Infin> But with shield hitlag and such
[16:38] <iRJi> Also, Olimar is the only character in the game who does not suffer from hitlag because he is not the actual thing hitting you
[16:38] <@FlameWaveK> Jab beats all of his nontilt moves
[16:38] <@FlameWaveK> Yes
[16:38] <Infin> Can't he grab us out of the second jab?
[16:38] <@FlameWaveK> because of this
[16:38] <iRJi> I mean, olimar is not that hard honestly
[16:38] <iRJi> I actually think its very even
[16:38] <@FlameWaveK> when clanking with his pikmin
[16:39] <SonicFalco> honestly yeah it should be 50/50
[16:39] <@FlameWaveK> olimar ussually gets to hit on you.
[16:39] <Pitbull> Even if you're down 2 stockds
[16:39] <@FlameWaveK> Its 50/50, maybe 55/45
[16:39] <Pitbull> you can bring it back easily
[16:39] <@FlameWaveK> maaaaaaaybe
[16:39] <Infin> 55:45 who's favor?
[16:39] <iRJi> No numbers.
[16:39] <@FlameWaveK> its a momentum match-up
[16:39] <iRJi> Stop with the numbers
[16:39] <SonicFalco> instead of 55:45 the only reason for that is because of the pikmin
[16:39] <iRJi> they are irrelivent
[16:39] <@FlameWaveK> sorry, habit
[16:39] <SonicFalco> lol
[16:40] <Infin> Numbers are relevant in that it helps one look at a matchup from a glance.
[16:40] <@FlameWaveK> I could say slight advantage only because of how harder we have to work.
[16:40] <iRJi> No, they are not
[16:40] <SonicFalco> ok spotdodgeing his grabs dont work
[16:40] <iRJi> because it installs a mindset not needed when playing.
[16:40] <Infin> ...
[16:40] <Infin> Why are you spotdodging against Olimar?
[16:40] <iRJi> That's easy lol
[16:40] <SonicFalco> idk dont ask force of habit
[16:40] <@FlameWaveK> spotdodge works agaisnt olimar only vs grab.
[16:40] <iRJi> Because outside of grab spot dodge ***** olimar, actually.
[16:40] <@FlameWaveK> fsmash will **** your spotdodge
[16:41] <@FlameWaveK> what?
[16:41] <@FlameWaveK> I find that fsmash will meaty your spotdodge
[16:41] <@FlameWaveK> like
[16:41] <@FlameWaveK> most of the time
[16:41] <iRJi> He does not actually have enough time to do it 2 times to you
[16:41] <iRJi> you can shield the 2nd one
[16:42] <@FlameWaveK> and from there..
[16:42] <iRJi> You don't need to spot dodge anything though
[16:42] <SonicFalco> ok noted
[16:42] <@FlameWaveK> you can do something oos
[16:43] <iRJi> The way I play the Mu is
[16:43] <iRJi> Fair fair fair fair fair
[16:43] <iRJi> Never go directly above him
[16:43] <iRJi> or beside him
[16:43] <@FlameWaveK> I play it like snake
[16:43] <@FlameWaveK> except more fair
[16:43] <@FlameWaveK> Try to keep olimar in the air
[16:43] <@FlameWaveK> do whatever you can to keep him in the air
[16:43] <SonicFalco> I play it with string combos involved as well on the platform
[16:44] <@FlameWaveK> swat pikmin away
[16:44] <Infin> Does he suffer landing lag even when using Whistle?
[16:44] <SonicFalco> f-air when hes off the stage
[16:44] <@FlameWaveK> if he whistles during the land no
[16:44] <SonicFalco> hmm
[16:44] <@FlameWaveK> ussually if they whistle my fsmash I'm safe though..
[16:44] <@FlameWaveK> abeilt their on the ground
[16:44] <@FlameWaveK> which is gay
[16:45] <Infin> What about charged FSmash?
[16:45] <SonicFalco> well surprisingly the AS works on him only when he mistimes his whistle
[16:45] <SonicFalco> um no
[16:45] <Infin> FAir to NAir?
[16:45] <SonicFalco> yes
[16:45] <Infin> Or DAir
[16:45] <SonicFalco> that works
[16:46] <SonicFalco> f to n
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> they have lag after the whisstle
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> so yes
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> fair to w.e. works ussually
[16:46] <iRJi> Dont...
[16:46] <iRJi> Jump cancel Usmash is gay.
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> ****
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> yes
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> this
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> is the gayest **** ever
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> ever since
[16:46] <iRJi> I have been with brood for like the past week
[16:46] <@FlameWaveK> olimars have learn to buffer it out of shieldstun
[16:46] <Kitamerby> brawl release
[16:46] <iRJi> been watching him at least
[16:47] <iRJi> since he has been in NJ and NY since apex[/collapse]

[collapse=Snake]Session Start: Sun Aug 22 17:04:35 2010
Session Ident: #LucarioMeta
03[17:04] * Now talking in #LucarioMeta
03[17:04] * Topic is 'Welcome to #LucarioMeta, a room dedicated to serious Lucario metagame discussion. This week's meeting is concerning the Snake matchup, to discussed at 8 PM EST on Sunday. Don't miss it!'
03[17:04] * Set by FlameWaveK on Fri Aug 20 15:48:39
01[17:04] <FlameWaveK> sorry im late
01[17:05] <FlameWaveK> Lets see if anyone else shows before starting this show :>
[17:06] <SF007> hiya
[17:06] <SF007> kk
03[17:07] * SF007 is now known as SonicFalco
01[17:07] <FlameWaveK> see if you can grab people
[17:09] <SonicFalco> I'll try
03[17:09] * sfp (webirc@user-12ld0jj.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #LucarioMeta
[17:10] <SonicFalco> sfp?
[17:10] <sfp> =o
[17:10] <SonicFalco> hiya
[17:10] <SonicFalco> thats your name?
[17:11] <SonicFalco> so I dont get confused
[17:11] <sfp> Yes
[17:11] <SonicFalco> kk
[17:12] <AlexoftheAura> is there a snake xat?
01[17:13] <FlameWaveK> Look for it
01[17:14] <FlameWaveK> RT
01[17:14] <FlameWaveK> you thereeee
[17:14] <RT> ?
01[17:14] <FlameWaveK> is trela around.
03[17:14] * Kitamerby (kitamerby@138.210.46.41) has joined #LucarioMeta
01[17:15] <FlameWaveK> Whats up Kita
[17:15] <Kitamerby> still talking?
01[17:15] <FlameWaveK> Waiting for people
[17:15] <Kitamerby> duuude flamey
[17:15] <Kitamerby> fighting of the spirit is in this game?
01[17:15] <FlameWaveK> gonna start it at 5:30
[17:15] <RT> I don't think he's available.
01[17:15] <FlameWaveK> yes
[17:15] <Kitamerby> ****** song is ******
03[17:15] * ChocoNaner (choconaner@209.127.192.227) has joined #LucarioMeta
[17:15] <Kitamerby> whoda***
01[17:15] <FlameWaveK> Choco why did you want to be here again
01[17:15] <FlameWaveK> :>
[17:15] <Kitamerby> brb ****** undine
03[17:15] * ChocoNaner is now known as cuz
03[17:16] * cuz is now known as I
[17:16] <I> _._
[17:16] <I> phail
03[17:16] * I is now known as ChocoNaner
[17:16] <ChocoNaner> yus
[17:16] <SonicFalco> trela and Infinity I cant get ahold of
[17:16] <sfp> i came here to talk about the lucario meta
[17:16] <SonicFalco> RJ is also awol
[17:17] <sfp> which is basically lucario with a mask and wings
[17:17] <sfp> incoming fan fiction and deviant art port
[17:17] <sfp> porn
[17:17] <ChocoNaner> .-.
[17:17] <ChocoNaner> so like
[17:17] <ChocoNaner> yeah
[17:17] <ChocoNaner> lucario discussion
[17:18] <ChocoNaner> -.-
01[17:18] <FlameWaveK> >>
01[17:18] <FlameWaveK> like I said
01[17:18] <FlameWaveK> I'm holding out until 5:30 to start this thing
[17:20] <ChocoNaner> na flame
[17:20] <ChocoNaner> don't plank
[17:20] <ChocoNaner> that's gay
[17:21] <SonicFalco> ok brb
[17:21] <Kitamerby> flamey how do I force over limit
[17:24] <ChocoNaner> dot
03[17:25] * Pitbull (webirc@pool-98-112-162-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[17:25] <ChocoNaner> hola
[17:26] <Pitbull> Either I missed the discussion or the jury is on recess
[17:26] <ChocoNaner> flame is lagging the discussion until 5:30
01[17:27] <FlameWaveK> By giving them good food kita.
01[17:27] <FlameWaveK> 3 more minutes
[17:28] <SonicFalco> awwk
[17:28] <SonicFalco> geez
[17:29] <ChocoNaner> 1 min
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> OK LETS GET THIS SHOW ON THE ROAD.
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> DISCUSSION
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> STARrt
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> *RT
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> :x
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> lucario sucks
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> main mk
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> if you're going to troll I can ban you :D
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> :D
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> But no really
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> but isn't it true
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> like
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> lucario is balanced
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> but balanced doesn't matter in barlw
[17:30] <ChocoNaner> balance*
01[17:30] <FlameWaveK> meh
06[17:31] * Pitbull is not amused
01[17:31] <FlameWaveK> Lucario is pretty broken over 140
01[17:31] <FlameWaveK> Anyways
[17:31] <SonicFalco> lol
[17:31] <RT> Speaking of broken, how about that Snake!
[17:31] <ChocoNaner> ekans
01[17:31] <FlameWaveK> Yep!
[17:31] <Pitbull> No man should be able to kick upwards like that
[17:31] <SonicFalco> yeah his f-tilt and u-tilts
[17:31] <SonicFalco> f-tilt screws us big time
01[17:31] <FlameWaveK> I think our gameplan is to camp a bit outside his DA range.
[17:32] <SonicFalco> not even our f-smash has priority on that
01[17:32] <FlameWaveK> Try to get him to commit to grenade pull and hit him.
[17:32] <SonicFalco> true
01[17:32] <FlameWaveK> Once you get over 110
[17:32] <Pitbull> hit and run
01[17:32] <FlameWaveK> I like to stay near nades and blow them up on purpose if I'm going to whiff a move.
01[17:33] <FlameWaveK> Raises my % so I can kill him easier
[17:33] <SonicFalco> well when he uses nades I shoot a AS at him
[17:33] <ChocoNaner> cept
[17:33] <ChocoNaner> raising % against snake
[17:33] <SonicFalco> I dont want to leave things to chance against snake
[17:33] <RT> I sometimes think that nades shouldn't be a problem after a certain percent.
[17:33] <ChocoNaner> phails cuz he can kill you at like 90%
[17:33] <Pitbull> once you hit 120, an utilt is death
01[17:33] <FlameWaveK> although it opens us to getting killed by bairs and stuff >>
[17:33] <RT> Because he can kill Lucario around 120% anyways.
01[17:33] <FlameWaveK> Once we get him in the air
[17:33] <SonicFalco> only by u-tilt
[17:34] <RT> After that point, it's just about being careful.
01[17:34] <FlameWaveK> We can play gay him pretty hard
[17:34] <RT> And if nades hit youm don't get frustrated.
[17:34] <SonicFalco> true
01[17:34] <FlameWaveK> fair baits the airdodge, but sometimes it loses to bair.
[17:34] <Pitbull> I make it a priority not to get hit by utilt
[17:34] <SonicFalco> also dont airdodge the nades sometimes u end up catching them by mistake
[17:34] <ChocoNaner> do you guys ever think of using tilts?
01[17:34] <FlameWaveK> Yes
[17:34] <SonicFalco> and blows in face
[17:34] <Kitamerby> tbh once you hit 120, it doesn't matter what your damage is
[17:34] <Kitamerby> everything kills you
[17:34] <ChocoNaner> I:
01[17:35] <FlameWaveK> no
[17:35] <ChocoNaner> cuz like
01[17:35] <FlameWaveK> nades don't :D
[17:35] <Kitamerby> except stale grenades
[17:35] <ChocoNaner> fsmash>ftilt
[17:35] <Kitamerby> and uthrow
[17:35] <ChocoNaner> is purty gay
[17:35] <ChocoNaner> ...
[17:35] <SonicFalco> f tilt
03[17:35] * iRJi (webirc@ool-4353a8fb.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[17:35] <SonicFalco> is annoying
[17:35] <Pitbull> what about insta throwing nades back at Snake?
01[17:35] <FlameWaveK> DownB has evasion utility in this MU
[17:35] <SonicFalco> hiya I guess you got my message RJ
[17:35] <ChocoNaner> insta throwing phails
01[17:35] <FlameWaveK> thats loses to double grenade pull but its pretty works otherise
[17:35] <ChocoNaner> if they cook em
01[17:36] <FlameWaveK> if they cook'em you can double team them
[17:36] <ChocoNaner> and then you're left open
01[17:36] <FlameWaveK> if you count the 3 seconds like I can
01[17:36] <FlameWaveK> *can't count
01[17:36] <FlameWaveK> I special trick I use for knowing when they'll blow up
[17:36] <Pitbull> isn't it 4 seconds?
[17:36] <ChocoNaner> yeah
01[17:36] <FlameWaveK> is to do the snake chant that the audiance does
[17:36] <ChocoNaner> i count 4 too
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> its four if you count fast
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> 3 if you count slower
03[17:37] * Shippo (webirc@ool-43556587.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> I just do the snake chant
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> tink
[17:37] <ChocoNaner> :[
[17:37] <SonicFalco> hiya shippo
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> SNAKE SNAKE SNAAAAAAAAYAKE B
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> BOOM
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> works for me
[17:37] <Shippo> I is here
[17:37] <ChocoNaner> that's weird
[17:37] <ChocoNaner> flame
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> and if i'm a little late I just do SNAKE SNAKE and then it blows up
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> hey
[17:37] <ChocoNaner> ._.
01[17:37] <FlameWaveK> if you
01[17:38] <FlameWaveK> actually compare them next to eachother
[17:38] <SonicFalco> well lets see about some counters to snakes moves
[17:38] <Shippo> Oh
01[17:38] <FlameWaveK> the chant and the grenade explosion
01[17:38] <FlameWaveK> it works
[17:38] <Shippo> So I ran into someone
[17:38] <Shippo> who starts to yell before they set off a C4, then sometimes yells to mindgame you thinking he's gonna blow it up
[17:38] <Shippo> I'm unable to hear the "now"
[17:38] <SonicFalco> wow
01[17:38] <FlameWaveK> LOL
[17:38] <Shippo> Does the MikeHaze rule come into effect?
01[17:39] <FlameWaveK> maybe
[17:39] <Pitbull> Only on ICs because they deserve it
01[17:39] <FlameWaveK> ask your TO
[17:39] <RT> MikeHaze rule is for everyone.
[17:39] <RT> Not just ICs.
[17:39] <RT> lol
[17:39] <SonicFalco> RJ anything you want to share about snake?
01[17:39] <FlameWaveK> oh
[17:39] <ChocoNaner> what's the mikehaze rule
01[17:39] <FlameWaveK> no yelling
[17:39] <ChocoNaner> screaming like crazy?
01[17:39] <FlameWaveK> or something like that
[17:39] <ChocoNaner> O:
[17:39] <ChocoNaner> yus
[17:39] <Pitbull> Scream like crazy to throw someone off
[17:40] <SonicFalco> true
[17:40] <ChocoNaner> lol
[17:40] <ChocoNaner> noice
[17:40] <SonicFalco> its stupid
03[17:40] * ChanServ sets mode: +o FlameWaveK
[17:40] <Kitamerby> it works
01[17:40] <@FlameWaveK> ^
[17:40] <Pitbull> yet smart at the same time though
[17:40] <Kitamerby> I'm gonna start that with snake
[17:41] <ChocoNaner> this is very productive discussion btw
01[17:41] <@FlameWaveK> Anyways
[17:41] <iRJi> As you may see
[17:41] <iRJi> im here
[17:41] <iRJi> but im busy, so ya
[17:41] <iRJi> i wont be saying much
[17:41] <Pitbull> Speaking of Snake, Hall got me with an super mindgame before
01[17:41] <@FlameWaveK> This will be going on for a bit.
[17:41] <SonicFalco> kk
01[17:41] <@FlameWaveK> so don't worry about it
01[17:41] <@FlameWaveK> Anyways
01[17:41] <@FlameWaveK> What do you guys think our best option out of dthrow is
01[17:41] <@FlameWaveK> I ussually go forward unless I'm near the ledge
[17:41] <Pitbull> why dthrow when you can uthrow?
[17:41] <ChocoNaner> umm
01[17:41] <@FlameWaveK> I mean
[17:42] <ChocoNaner> if they dj
01[17:42] <@FlameWaveK> when we get Dthrowed
[17:42] <ChocoNaner> just gay them
01[17:42] <@FlameWaveK> <<
[17:42] <ChocoNaner> when they're landing
[17:42] <ChocoNaner> regrab dat ***
01[17:42] <@FlameWaveK> I mean when
[17:42] <ChocoNaner> free %
01[17:42] <@FlameWaveK> Snake grabs us
01[17:42] <@FlameWaveK> and lays us down
01[17:42] <@FlameWaveK> and magic pixie dust gives us 10% of damage
[17:42] <Shippo> I mix it up
[17:42] <Pitbull> just get up normally the first time
01[17:42] <@FlameWaveK> i stopped doing that
[17:42] <Shippo> Some snakes
[17:42] <Kitamerby> so did I
[17:42] <Shippo> will
[17:42] <ChocoNaner> get up attack
[17:42] <Shippo> Look at your controller
01[17:43] <@FlameWaveK> it doesn't work if they know it
[17:43] <Kitamerby> some snakes fsmash the first time :<
[17:43] <Shippo> Good thing
[17:43] <RT> Rolling away forward is usually the best option.
[17:43] <Shippo> My R is attack
[17:43] <Kitamerby> I know I do
01[17:43] <@FlameWaveK> DDDs do that to me too
[17:43] <Shippo> Mix up
01[17:43] <@FlameWaveK> >>
01[17:43] <@FlameWaveK> when im another character
[17:43] <ChocoNaner> doesnt rolling forward usually get you killed
01[17:43] <@FlameWaveK> nah
[17:43] <Shippo> Well
01[17:43] <@FlameWaveK> they ussually can only dash attack
[17:43] <RT> But you can mix it up with get up and just normak,
[17:43] <Pitbull> Lucario has a longer roll
[17:43] <Kitamerby> snake can regrab iirc with boost grabs
[17:43] <Shippo> rolling towards the snake
[17:43] <Kitamerby> if they're really good
[17:43] <Shippo> has the uptilt option
[17:43] <Shippo> which is
[17:43] <Shippo> death
[17:43] <Shippo> the other is an ftilt for standing up
[17:43] <SonicFalco> when snake ftilts the most effective way of avoiding damage would be powershield and then spot dodge the second hit then grab
[17:43] <Shippo> or a dash attack for rolling away
01[17:43] <@FlameWaveK> I think
[17:44] <Kitamerby> I read somewhere in a techroll thread that the only character snake can't regrab forwards is himself and zelda
[17:44] <SonicFalco> and it works lol
01[17:44] <@FlameWaveK> if we roll back.
01[17:44] <@FlameWaveK> snake can crawl backwards to make sure we don't go past him
[17:44] <Kitamerby> if we roll back it's fsmash or ftilt
[17:44] <ChocoNaner> if you roll back snake can do anything to you
03[17:44] * Tech_Chase (tech_chase@c-76-112-209-132.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[17:44] <Kitamerby> what are you serious
[17:44] <ChocoNaner> because snake's fatass
[17:44] <RT> Roll back is almost the worst option.
[17:44] <Kitamerby> LOL @ THE TIMING
[17:44] <ChocoNaner> shortens your roll
01[17:44] <@FlameWaveK> He can do it to some characters.
[17:44] <Kitamerby> tech_chase hey
01[17:44] <@FlameWaveK> You from the snake boards?
01[17:44] <@FlameWaveK> :o
[17:44] <Shippo> Or we can do the "pro" option
[17:44] <Shippo> "dont get grabbed"
[17:44] <Tech_Chase> Hey there. Yes I am.
[17:44] <Tech_Chase> lol
01[17:44] <@FlameWaveK> Whats up
[17:45] <ChocoNaner> nib
[17:45] <ChocoNaner> nub*
01[17:45] <@FlameWaveK> We're discussing your character right now.
02[17:45] * RT (rt@c-76-30-94-15.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: Bye!)
03[17:45] * RT (rt@c-76-30-94-15.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[17:45] <ChocoNaner> gay *** char
[17:45] <Tech_Chase> ChocoNub is here too. Lovely.
[17:45] <SonicFalco> -_-
01[17:45] <@FlameWaveK> so far we're talking about our options out of your dthrow
[17:45] <ChocoNaner> basically
[17:45] <Tech_Chase> And yeah I saw your post on the Snake boards.
01[17:45] <@FlameWaveK> is it true you can get us with a boost grab if we forward roll?
[17:45] <Tech_Chase> We'
[17:45] <Tech_Chase> are still testing that.
[17:45] <Tech_Chase> But its looking promising.
01[17:45] <@FlameWaveK> so its tenative
[17:45] <ChocoNaner> what's a boost grab
01[17:45] <@FlameWaveK> dash attack and then grab
01[17:45] <@FlameWaveK> increases grab range
[17:45] <Tech_Chase> Lucario's roll isnt super far going forward.
[17:45] <SonicFalco> that happened to me many times
[17:46] <ChocoNaner> i forgot all these terms
[17:46] <Tech_Chase> Our boost grab range is ****
01[17:46] <@FlameWaveK> yeah its like
01[17:46] <@FlameWaveK> sheik boost grab in melee ;-;
[17:46] <Tech_Chase> lol right
01[17:46] <@FlameWaveK> soooo far
[17:46] <ChocoNaner> so
01[17:46] <@FlameWaveK> early on %s
01[17:46] <@FlameWaveK> I just wait
[17:46] <ChocoNaner> snake is gay
[17:46] <Tech_Chase> Lucario's options from our D-Throw is pretty much the same as 80% of characters.
[17:47] <Tech_Chase> You have to mix it up.
[17:47] <Tech_Chase> There's a thread we have..
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> what are they gonna do if we just wait
[17:47] <ChocoNaner> utilt
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> they can grab us again though
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> *can't
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> if we just wait
[17:47] <Kitamerby> fsmash
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> outside of jab resets
[17:47] <Kitamerby> :x
[17:47] <ChocoNaner> u t i l t
[17:47] <Kitamerby> or utilt
[17:47] <Tech_Chase> That shows the distances and best options from our d-throw.
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> I said early on %s broskis :x
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> hm.
[17:47] <Kitamerby> doesn't ftilt hit us if we wait too?
[17:47] <Pitbull> same thing
[17:47] <Shippo> ftilt is an annoying attack against lucario
[17:47] <ChocoNaner> u t i l t
[17:47] <Kitamerby> *anyone
[17:47] <Tech_Chase> anything will hit you if you wait
[17:47] <ChocoNaner> doesn't matter
[17:47] <Kitamerby> *everyone but mk
[17:47] <Tech_Chase> and if we catch on
01[17:47] <@FlameWaveK> except another grab.
[17:48] <ChocoNaner> since snake can refresh it
[17:48] <ChocoNaner> easily
[17:48] <ChocoNaner> with ftilt
[17:48] <SonicFalco> like I said
01[17:48] <@FlameWaveK> it won't have that 1.05 boost
[17:48] <SonicFalco> to counter snakes f-tilt
01[17:48] <@FlameWaveK> meaning instead of 110 we live to 120
[17:48] <ChocoNaner> .-.
[17:48] <SonicFalco> powershield hit 1
[17:48] <ChocoNaner> IT DOESN'T MATTER FLAME
[17:48] <ChocoNaner> ftilt does like
[17:48] <SonicFalco> then for hit to side step then grab
01[17:48] <@FlameWaveK> its still good information.
[17:48] <ChocoNaner> 20 or 21%
[17:48] <SonicFalco> 2*
[17:48] <Tech_Chase> Most Snake's know not to f tilt 2 if number 1 doesnt hit
[17:49] <ChocoNaner> that's a 6th of 120
[17:49] <Tech_Chase> Not sure about the frame advantage you get from PSing # 1 though
01[17:49] <@FlameWaveK> ftilt1 has a healty disadvantage on block though
[17:49] <Kitamerby> how do you ps ftilt1
[17:49] <Kitamerby> :<
01[17:49] <@FlameWaveK> I remember ally talking about it
[17:49] <Kitamerby> it's 4 frames
[17:49] <ChocoNaner> smart snakes like to mess with you
[17:49] <ChocoNaner> they hit with the first
[17:49] <Kitamerby> that's faster than our jab
01[17:49] <@FlameWaveK> pretty sure we have guranteed dtilt afterwards on block.
[17:49] <ChocoNaner> but if you block
[17:49] <ChocoNaner> they try again
[17:49] <ChocoNaner> hate that
[17:49] <Kitamerby> and does 2x as much damage with 8x as much range
01[17:49] <@FlameWaveK> OR AT LEAST on powershield
[17:50] <Tech_Chase> lol its good mindgames
[17:50] <SonicFalco> well
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> yea
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> well
[17:50] <Tech_Chase> or use jab afterwards since jab comes out on frame 5
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> naners are better
01[17:50] <@FlameWaveK> yeah
01[17:50] <@FlameWaveK> that too
[17:50] <Tech_Chase> then we can jab grab or jab f-tilt
[17:50] <SonicFalco> true
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> :<
[17:50] <Pitbull> that monkey has no business here
[17:50] <SonicFalco> argh
[17:50] <SonicFalco> I have no info on that one
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> yes he does
01[17:50] <@FlameWaveK> So
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> that monkey's feet
01[17:50] <@FlameWaveK> Tech Chase
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> beat yur char
01[17:50] <@FlameWaveK> You got anything you HATE about lucario
01[17:50] <@FlameWaveK> or find annoying
[17:50] <ChocoNaner> ;~;
[17:51] <Tech_Chase> A few things
01[17:51] <@FlameWaveK> when playing him
[17:51] <Pitbull> Snake doesn't want to be in the air
[17:51] <SonicFalco> lol
01[17:51] <@FlameWaveK> mind sharing?
[17:51] <Tech_Chase> Like when we are up close I hate that if we get caught in your jab crap theres a bunch of stuff you can do
[17:51] <Tech_Chase> like Force Palm CG to a lesser extent
01[17:51] <@FlameWaveK> you can mash out of that one
[17:51] <Tech_Chase> but even if we spot dodge it it still hits
[17:51] <SonicFalco> lol
[17:51] <Pitbull> at early percent
[17:52] <Tech_Chase> thats all minor stuff
01[17:52] <@FlameWaveK> agaisnt people who know how to mash
03[17:52] * gg-05197894 (choconaner@adsl-75-3-193-109.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
01[17:52] <@FlameWaveK> we just do it into another grab
[17:52] <gg-05197894> .
[17:52] <Tech_Chase> I forget sometimes lol
[17:52] <SonicFalco> lol no worries
01[17:52] <@FlameWaveK> yeah
[17:52] <Tech_Chase> But I dont like your f-smash at high percents
01[17:52] <@FlameWaveK> it punishes whiffed ftilt
[17:52] <Tech_Chase> its a little hard to punish even if we PS it
[17:52] <SonicFalco> well we dont like your u-tilt
[17:52] <gg-05197894> gad dammit
03[17:52] * gg-05197894 is now known as AIDS
[17:52] <Pitbull> can't you punish it with a dash attack?
01[17:52] <@FlameWaveK> ^
[17:52] <Tech_Chase> If our spacing is perfect
01[17:53] <@FlameWaveK> yeah on powershield dash attack punishes all of our moves
[17:53] <AIDS> buffer the da
01[17:53] <@FlameWaveK> and tilts on normal block
[17:53] <AIDS> imo
[17:53] <Kitamerby> who is aids
[17:53] <AIDS> choco
01[17:53] <@FlameWaveK> Choco
[17:53] <Kitamerby> choco has aids?
[17:53] <Kitamerby> good to know
03[17:53] * ChocoNaner was kicked by FlameWaveK (ChocoNaner)
[17:53] <AIDS> .-.
[17:53] <Tech_Chase> There isnt a great deal that annoys me about Lucario to be honets
[17:53] <Tech_Chase> its a fun MU
[17:53] <AIDS> for you
[17:53] <Tech_Chase> LOL
01[17:53] <@FlameWaveK> I find it fun
01[17:53] <@FlameWaveK> :\
[17:53] <Pitbull> The moment I launch Snake in the air
01[17:54] <@FlameWaveK> its fun time.
[17:54] <Pitbull> that's where I go all out
[17:54] <Tech_Chase> You have to.
[17:54] <AIDS> yus
[17:54] <Tech_Chase> Were at our weakest trying to land.
[17:54] <Tech_Chase> We only have a few options.
[17:54] <Tech_Chase> B-reversaled grenades or C4 to mix it up
[17:54] <SonicFalco> snake is my curse
[17:54] <Tech_Chase> airdodge
[17:54] <Tech_Chase> Nair
01[17:54] <@FlameWaveK> bair too right?
[17:54] <Tech_Chase> soft libbed nades
[17:55] <Tech_Chase> Not if youre on the ground
[17:55] <Pitbull> extremely similar to how Lucario mix up his landings
[17:55] <Tech_Chase> its SO easy to punish
[17:55] <SonicFalco> argh sucks that u guys can b reversal -_-
[17:55] <Tech_Chase> so much landing lad
[17:55] <AIDS> -_-
[17:55] <Tech_Chase> lag*
01[17:55] <@FlameWaveK> true true
01[17:55] <@FlameWaveK> if we jump after you its an option though
01[17:55] <@FlameWaveK> I've been hit with it >>
[17:55] <Tech_Chase> For sure
[17:55] <Tech_Chase> I love its range
[17:55] <AIDS> i hate yur char's gayness
[17:55] <AIDS> gays out everyone but 1 char
[17:56] <Tech_Chase> lol
[17:56] <AIDS> >>
[17:56] <Pitbull> Snake has invisible limbs
[17:56] <Tech_Chase> Any other questions Lucarios? I have limited time but I wanted to contribute
[17:56] <AIDS> Cheese or Mayonnaise?
[17:56] <Tech_Chase> Cheese
[17:56] <Tech_Chase> Next?
01[17:56] <@FlameWaveK> How do you keep us offstage
[17:56] <Pitbull> Conditioning with C4
[17:56] <Tech_Chase> What about it?
01[17:57] <@FlameWaveK> like
[17:57] <Pitbull> that costed me a game before
[17:57] <AIDS> can't snake just like
[17:57] <AIDS> retreat nair
[17:57] <AIDS> and *** up lucario
01[17:57] <@FlameWaveK> what are common ledge traps that employed vs our character
[17:57] <Pitbull> Hall, a pretty good Snake here. Planted a C4 far away
01[17:57] <@FlameWaveK> Aurasphere lol
[17:57] <Kitamerby> stand near the ledge
[17:57] <Kitamerby> wait for him to do anything
[17:57] <Kitamerby> ftilt
[17:57] <Kitamerby> /snake
[17:57] <Pitbull> then up close, he detonates it and I don't know where its at so I shield
[17:57] <AIDS> -.-
[17:57] <Pitbull> the moment I drop shield, I get utilted and die
[17:57] <AIDS> phail
[17:57] <SonicFalco> pay attention to the c4
[17:57] <Tech_Chase> Retreat nair only truly works if we Autocancel it other wise it has such bad lag
[17:58] <Tech_Chase> and the C4 tricks are stagwe dependent
[17:58] <AIDS> no vhs
[17:58] <AIDS> cuz clearly i mean
[17:58] <AIDS> meant*
[17:58] <AIDS> go under the stage
[17:58] <AIDS> and retreat nair
[17:58] <Tech_Chase> be specific you nub
[17:58] <AIDS> :<
[17:58] <Tech_Chase> Okay seriously though
[17:58] <AIDS> yus
01[17:58] <@FlameWaveK> C4 on dark stages
01[17:58] <@FlameWaveK> is where they're better
[17:58] <AIDS> picto
[17:59] <AIDS> <_>
[17:59] <Pitbull> and ban texture hacks that have black stages
01[17:59] <@FlameWaveK> SOMETIMES TEXTURES CAN **** WITH THIS LOL, but if you have a beef with that
01[17:59] <@FlameWaveK> take out the SD card
[17:59] <Tech_Chase> I love C4 on picto and lylat
[17:59] <Tech_Chase> Lylat is SO good for c4
[17:59] <SonicFalco> true
[17:59] <AIDS> snake is so gay on lylat
[17:59] <Tech_Chase> Let me tell you something about Battlefield
[17:59] <AIDS> gad ****
[17:59] <SonicFalco> however other than that
[17:59] <Tech_Chase> You'll want to know this
[17:59] <AIDS> continue
[17:59] <SonicFalco> dont take snake there
[17:59] <Tech_Chase> On the top platform we usually like to set the C4 on a corner
[18:00] <Tech_Chase> because it takes up so much space when it explodes
[18:00] <SonicFalco> I see
[18:00] <Tech_Chase> it cuts off like 1/3 of the stage and we use that to our advantage
01[18:00] <@FlameWaveK> and its hard to see?
[18:00] <SonicFalco> true
[18:00] <Tech_Chase> Its not hard to see but its great for mindgaming you
[18:00] <AIDS> yur ftilt cuts off like half of the stage
[18:00] <AIDS> so
[18:00] <AIDS> yeah
[18:00] <Tech_Chase> and if we have a landmind its even better
[18:00] <AIDS> and mines
[18:00] <Tech_Chase> lol choco
[18:00] <AIDS> and nades
[18:00] <AIDS> uhh
[18:01] <AIDS> .
[18:01] <Tech_Chase> lol well always habe nades
[18:01] <SonicFalco> heh
[18:01] <Pitbull> From my experience, landmines aren't that useful against Lucario
[18:01] <Tech_Chase> if we arent using like 50a match were doing it wrong
01[18:01] <@FlameWaveK> Haha
[18:01] <AIDS> thank god for the monkey hump properties
[18:01] <Tech_Chase> ew diddy
01[18:01] <@FlameWaveK> does instant throw **** around with nades that much
01[18:01] <@FlameWaveK> or?
[18:01] <AIDS> 3:
[18:02] <Tech_Chase> your throw? what do you mean?
[18:02] <AIDS> well then
01[18:02] <@FlameWaveK> instathrow
01[18:02] <@FlameWaveK> nades
[18:02] <AIDS> ....
01[18:02] <@FlameWaveK> airdodge toss cancel
[18:02] <Tech_Chase> Or
[18:02] <Tech_Chase> Oh*
[18:02] <Tech_Chase> Yeah it messes with us a bit
[18:02] <Tech_Chase> its a good way of retaliating
[18:02] <Tech_Chase> if
[18:03] <Tech_Chase> we arent cooking them right
[18:03] <AIDS> yus
[18:03] <Tech_Chase> If we are then dont try it
[18:03] <Tech_Chase> Grenades go off in 4 seconds
[18:03] <Tech_Chase> always pay attention to how long we cook them
[18:03] <Pitbull> I was right, Flame owes me money
01[18:03] <@FlameWaveK> ****it
[18:03] <AIDS> graped
[18:03] <AIDS> so
01[18:03] <@FlameWaveK> How long does it take for C4 to autoexplode
[18:03] <AIDS> 27 seconds
[18:03] <Tech_Chase> 27 seconds
[18:04] <AIDS> yeeee
[18:04] <Kitamerby> 27 seconds
[18:04] <Tech_Chase> 25 for landmines to go away
02[18:04] * Shippo (webirc@ool-43556587.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[18:04] <AIDS> o
[18:04] <AIDS> gud to know
[18:04] <Tech_Chase> but you guys can just AS that anyway
01[18:04] <@FlameWaveK> huh
[18:04] <Kitamerby> I once had fun one day by messing around with snake and forcing people onto the C4 at the 27 second mark
[18:04] <Pitbull> It's best the not count the exact time but rather try and sense the time
[18:04] <Kitamerby> it was funny how often people forget the timer
[18:04] <Tech_Chase> I have internal timers in my head lol
01[18:04] <@FlameWaveK> ahhh
[18:04] <AIDS> i rather just stay the hell away from the c4
[18:04] <Tech_Chase> It happens when you play Snake too long
[18:04] <Kitamerby> I have a watch
[18:05] <AIDS> not like i can't gay snake
01[18:05] <@FlameWaveK> How do you build an internal timer
[18:05] <Kitamerby> huh I wanna play snake now
01[18:05] <@FlameWaveK> for reals
[18:05] <Pitbull> you just do it
[18:05] <Tech_Chase> Practice
[18:05] <Tech_Chase> You just get a feel for it
[18:05] <AIDS> ^
[18:05] <Tech_Chase> Plain and simple
[18:05] <Kitamerby> hey choconaner
[18:05] <AIDS> wat
01[18:05] <@FlameWaveK> eh I'll try I guess
[18:05] <Kitamerby> how many seconds of ground time before bananas disappear
[18:05] <AIDS> iunno
[18:05] <Tech_Chase> noob
[18:05] <AIDS> i think it's like 7 seconds
[18:05] <Kitamerby> useless diddy main
[18:05] <Pitbull> after about 20 seconds and that C4 hasn't exploded
[18:05] <AIDS> >:[
[18:06] <Pitbull> I like to play a little risky
[18:06] <AIDS> it's less than 10 seconds
[18:06] <AIDS> for sure
[18:06] <Tech_Chase> Any other questions Flame?
[18:06] <Pitbull> Snake loses to Lucario because he can't hide
01[18:06] <@FlameWaveK> hm..
[18:06] <SonicFalco> lol
01[18:06] <@FlameWaveK> nothing much
01[18:06] <@FlameWaveK> unless Anyone else has any questions
01[18:06] <@FlameWaveK> iRJi
01[18:07] <@FlameWaveK> if you're here it'd be a good time to randomly pop up :x
[18:07] <AIDS> is snake banworthy?
[18:07] <Tech_Chase> NO
[18:07] <Tech_Chase> lol
[18:07] <Pitbull> Not really
01[18:07] <@FlameWaveK> ^
[18:07] <AIDS> opposite day
[18:07] <AIDS> stfu
[18:07] <Tech_Chase> lol
[18:07] <SonicFalco> wow
[18:07] <SonicFalco> busy much
[18:07] <AIDS> well
[18:07] <AIDS> yeah
01[18:07] <@FlameWaveK> oh
[18:07] <AIDS> think that's it
01[18:07] <@FlameWaveK> Sonicfalco you got anything you wanna ask
[18:07] <AIDS> gtfo vhs
[18:07] <Pitbull> Snake vs. Lucario, when played right it will be last hit wins
[18:07] <Tech_Chase> Yes^
[18:08] <AIDS> :I
[18:08] <Tech_Chase> That is so true
[18:08] <SonicFalco> hmm with snake
01[18:08] <@FlameWaveK> yeaah
[18:08] <SonicFalco> the only thing with him is his u-tilts
01[18:08] <@FlameWaveK> I always got last hit with anuar in this MU when I'm on key :> soooo close all the time
01[18:08] <@FlameWaveK> and if you guys excuse me
01[18:08] <@FlameWaveK> I'm going to get the disadvantage on shield drop on ftilt and utilt
[18:08] <Pitbull> you ain't excused
[18:08] <AIDS> ^
[18:09] <Tech_Chase> lol
[18:09] <SonicFalco> they can read us like a book when we try to do anything else
[18:09] <AIDS> get yo *** bak here
[18:09] <SonicFalco> and -_- die
[18:09] <AIDS> so
[18:09] <AIDS> moving on from snake
[18:09] <Pitbull> I just now remembered
[18:09] <AIDS> how bout that jiggz mu
[18:09] <Pitbull> Snake can jab us out of jab-jab-XXX
[18:09] <Tech_Chase> well I'm about to take off thanks for letting me discuss stuff with you guys
[18:09] <AIDS> yur welcome
[18:09] <Kitamerby> what's faster
[18:09] <SonicFalco> np
[18:09] <Tech_Chase> helps me reaffirm my knowledge
[18:09] <Kitamerby> ftilt or jab?
[18:10] <Pitbull> jab
[18:10] <Tech_Chase> Jab is frame 5
[18:10] <Tech_Chase> F tilt is frame 8 i believe
[18:10] <Kitamerby> waaaaat
[18:10] <SonicFalco> hmm
[18:10] <AIDS> doesn't matter
[18:10] <Tech_Chase> dont quote me on that
[18:10] <AIDS> not like yur gonna beat them out
[18:10] <SonicFalco> thats why our f-smahs doesnt beat it-_-
[18:10] <AIDS> or at least not ftilt
[18:10] <Tech_Chase> but jab is faster
[18:10] <SonicFalco> smash*
[18:10] <AIDS> unless you're also snake
[18:10] <AIDS> or mk
[18:10] <Tech_Chase> Anyway cya later Lucarios...and ChocoScrub
[18:10] <AIDS> suggmadigg
[18:11] <Tech_Chase> you wish
[18:11] <SonicFalco> later chase
[18:11] <AIDS> i command u
[18:11] <Tech_Chase> no bish
06[18:11] * Pitbull gives Tech his box back
[18:11] <AIDS> >:B
[18:11] <Tech_Chase> peace guys
02[18:11] * Tech_Chase (tech_chase@c-76-112-209-132.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: Bye!)
[18:11] <Pitbull> Dtilt works pretty well against Snake
[18:11] <Kitamerby> ftilt frame 4
[18:11] <Kitamerby> jab frame 3
[18:11] <Kitamerby> oh guys did you know
[18:12] <Kitamerby> snake's jab can cause a reset
[18:12] <AIDS> yes
01[18:12] <@FlameWaveK> thought jab was frame 2
03[18:12] * Shippo (webirc@ool-43556587.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[18:12] <Kitamerby> lol frame 2 jab
[18:12] <Kitamerby> that's falco status
[18:12] <Pitbull> Our roll plays a big part in us racking up damage on Snake
[18:12] <SonicFalco> lol
[18:12] <SonicFalco> uh pitbull
[18:12] <Shippo> Well
[18:12] <SonicFalco> any pro snake will wait for us to roll and punish us
[18:12] <Shippo> Lucario and Snake can both spam our projectile ar range
[18:12] <AIDS> anything u fgts wanna ask before choco leaves
[18:12] <Pitbull> away from him
[18:13] <AIDS> :D
[18:13] <SonicFalco> then gets under a C4
[18:13] <SonicFalco> -_-
[18:13] <AIDS> -.-
[18:13] <SonicFalco> NOW!
01[18:13] <@FlameWaveK> Guys I can't find the brawl backroom character discussion thread
01[18:13] <@FlameWaveK> :<
[18:13] <Pitbull> or be extremely lucky
[18:13] <Pitbull> like I was yesterday
[18:13] <AIDS> aight
[18:13] <Shippo> did it get eliminated
[18:13] <AIDS> bai everyone
[18:13] <AIDS> cept flame
[18:14] <Shippo> or like
[18:14] <AIDS> ur gay
[18:14] <AIDS> threatening to ban choco
[18:14] <AIDS> ;~;
02[18:14] * AIDS (choconaner@adsl-75-3-193-109.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: Bye!)
[18:14] <Pitbull> I was a less than an inch from being blown up by a C4 that would've killed me
[18:14] <SonicFalco> well luck yeah that helps
[18:15] <Pitbull> But I fmashed at the same time so the Snake got hit and died
[18:15] <Shippo> Fsmash
[18:15] <SonicFalco> but one thing I learned is that dont leave anything to chance with snake
[18:15] <Shippo> Snake does not fear
[18:15] <Shippo> Ftilt and dtilt
[18:15] <Shippo> are amazing toolds against snake
[18:16] <Pitbull> and make sure to publicly announce that you hate fighting Snake if MLG rules are in place
[18:16] <Pitbull> Halberd or Green Greens
[18:16] <SonicFalco> hmm well I'm going to practice the wavebounce AS so I can do it consistantly
[18:17] <SonicFalco> lol
[18:17] <Pitbull> well that's what we didn't discuss
[18:17] <Pitbull> Counterpicks
03[18:17] * phi1ny3 (phi1ny3@c-98-232-243-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
[18:17] <Pitbull> too little too late
[18:18] <SonicFalco> hiya
[18:19] <phi1ny3> ...
[18:19] <phi1ny3> sup sonicfalcoinsertmorebluechars
01[18:19] <@FlameWaveK> AHHH NUTES
01[18:19] <@FlameWaveK> I forgot
01[18:19] <@FlameWaveK> I wanted to ask him what our options were when he dthrows us at the ledge
01[18:20] <@FlameWaveK> and we go into the air
[18:20] <phi1ny3> oh lol
[18:20] <phi1ny3> like where you get utilted afterwards?
01[18:20] <@FlameWaveK> yes
[18:20] <Pitbull> at the ledge, you're screwed
[18:20] <phi1ny3> why are you getting grabbed at the ledge?
01[18:20] <@FlameWaveK> tech chases iunno
[18:21] <SonicFalco> lol
[18:21] <Pitbull> No discussion needed on that
[18:21] <phi1ny3> I hate how down tilted slopes he can dtilt and make it angled so it smacks you when you try to ES to the ledge
[18:21] <phi1ny3> like what Ally did to Lee
01[18:22] <@FlameWaveK> yea
01[18:22] <@FlameWaveK> thats a drag
01[18:22] <@FlameWaveK> brb
01[18:22] <@FlameWaveK> bathroom
01[18:22] <@FlameWaveK> you guys keep talking
02[18:24] * Shippo (webirc@ool-43556587.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[18:25] <SonicFalco> true
[18:25] <SonicFalco> ok only three things to do against snake
[18:26] <Pitbull> never go in the air if Snake is on the ground
[18:26] <SonicFalco> dont airdodge his nades
01[18:26] <@FlameWaveK> I disagree pitbull
01[18:27] <@FlameWaveK> I think when we're at a % disadvantage
01[18:27] <@FlameWaveK> its better to attack him from the air
[18:27] <SonicFalco> watch for u-tilt when over 120%
[18:27] <Pitbull> and get utilted?
01[18:27] <@FlameWaveK> since our other ground pokes can get shielded to dash attacked
01[18:27] <@FlameWaveK> he's staling his utilt
[18:27] <SonicFalco> and dont roll much against him
01[18:27] <@FlameWaveK> GAAH
01[18:28] <@FlameWaveK> I now remember ANOTHER THING I wanted to ask
[18:28] <SonicFalco> you do you get punished
01[18:28] <@FlameWaveK> does snake's ftilt count as one or 2 ques on the stale moves thing
[18:28] <SonicFalco> hmm good question
[18:28] <phi1ny3> 2 I think
[18:29] <SonicFalco> geez
01[18:31] <@FlameWaveK> homo homo homo
01[18:31] <@FlameWaveK> someone grab another snake main
01[18:31] <@FlameWaveK> :x
[18:31] <SonicFalco> -_-
[18:31] <AlexoftheAura> get ally in here
[18:31] <SonicFalco> I dont know of any atm
[18:31] <SonicFalco> wow
[18:32] <phi1ny3> lol wasn't there a snake board guy asking to join in or something?
[18:32] <SonicFalco> is he even on
[18:32] <Pitbull> Ask Havok
[18:32] <SonicFalco> doubt it
[18:32] <phi1ny3> I'm like 80% positive it's two
01[18:35] <@FlameWaveK> Asked
01[18:35] <@FlameWaveK> Yeah
01[18:35] <@FlameWaveK> There was phil
03[18:36] * Zao (jeremyo@ip68-230-130-217.ri.ri.cox.net) has joined #LucarioMeta
03[18:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Zao
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> ZaoZaoZao
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> What up
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> how do
[18:36] <@Zao> Have you guys been talking at all
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> Yeah
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> :>
[18:36] <@Zao> good
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> How do you
[18:36] <Pitbull> that's a lie
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> archive
01[18:36] <@FlameWaveK> on mIRC
[18:36] <@Zao> I wouldn't want me being away ruin the discussion
[18:37] <@Zao> Tools => Log Files
[18:37] <@Zao> then you click stuff'
[18:37] <@Zao> and there you go[/collapse]

[collapse=Zero Suit Samus]
[19:37] <@AlexoftheAura> hey linkshot, you there?
15[19:37] <Linkshot> Suuup
[19:38] <@AlexoftheAura> could you save the logs for tonight?
[19:38] <@AlexoftheAura> i don't know how :x
15[19:39] <Linkshot> I have it auto save logs.
15[19:39] <Linkshot> So don't worry.
[19:40] <@AlexoftheAura> Thanks :3
03[19:58] * Joins: RT
[19:59] <@AlexoftheAura> hi
[19:59] <RT> Hey.
15[20:02] <Linkshot> o/
[20:02] <@AlexoftheAura> I guess we'll start at 8:30 so (hopefully) people can show up
03[20:20] * Joins: Solecalibur
[20:20] <Solecalibur> Lucario vs Zss aye?
[20:20] <@AlexoftheAura> yeah
[20:20] <@AlexoftheAura> as soon as more people show up
[20:20] <Solecalibur> ah anything i miss or did you not start?
[20:20] <Solecalibur> ah ok
[20:20] <@AlexoftheAura> or 8:30
[20:21] <RT> ZSS.
[20:21] <@AlexoftheAura> whatever happens first
[20:21] <RT> D Disciple suggested Peach too.
[20:21] <Solecalibur> oh i dont know lucario vs peach lol I go zss vs peach
[20:21] <@AlexoftheAura> should we do both?
[20:22] <RT> Dunno.
[20:22] <@AlexoftheAura> might get confusing
[20:22] <RT> Whatever.
[20:22] <RT> If no one shows up, it won't matter, lol.
[20:22] <@AlexoftheAura> that's true
[20:22] <@AlexoftheAura> we don't need a lot of people
[20:22] <@AlexoftheAura> just a few who know the matchup
[20:25] <RT> I'm pretty confident in the Peach one.
[20:25] <RT> ZSS, not so much, but there has been a random surge of ZSS in Texas lately.
[20:25] <Solecalibur> Texas? I know active on boards but I've seen results with at least 3-4
[20:26] <Solecalibur> there isnt a soild falco ground there also probly
[20:26] <RT> Yeah, Dakpo has been doing pretty well lately.
[20:26] <RT> And FK.
[20:29] <RT> Texas has no Falcos again.
[20:29] <RT> Although Gnes is trying him out.
[20:29] <Solecalibur> I beat his falco with my zss in friendlies...
[20:30] <Solecalibur> but never the less alrite , diddys destory zss anyways -.-
03[20:31] * Joins: D_Disciple
[20:31] <D_Disciple> yo
[20:31] <@AlexoftheAura> hey
[20:32] <D_Disciple> sup
[20:32] <D_Disciple> you guys start already?
[20:32] <@AlexoftheAura> not yet
[20:32] <@AlexoftheAura> hoping more people will show up
[20:33] <RT> So are you confiremd for Phase, Disciple>
[20:33] <@AlexoftheAura> so we don't bury solecalibur in questions
[20:33] <D_Disciple> umm, not sure RT
[20:34] <RT> Ah, okay.
15[20:35] <Linkshot> On the fundamentals, we beat ZSS..but that's on paper.
[20:35] <Solecalibur> ah i see , im not fully aware of lucario's gimics I've only played braxton argent and fonz (seriously so far)
03[20:35] * Joins: HealthyWaveK
03[20:35] * ChanServ sets mode: +o HealthyWaveK
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> oh
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> so I decided to come
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> because I remembered
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> Anyways
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> Did **** get done
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> because I know this MU really well
15[20:35] <Linkshot> Sole: You gonna be up in Canada at any point? :>
[20:35] <RT> **** ain't started yet.
[20:35] <RT> lol
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> except not from the ZSS side
[20:35] <@HealthyWaveK> although I will be learning it!
[20:36] <@HealthyWaveK> like
[20:36] <@HealthyWaveK> I know a bunch of dumb tricks you can do
[20:36] <@HealthyWaveK> VS ZSS
[20:36] <@AlexoftheAura> i guess we should just start now then
[20:36] <D_Disciple> RT you're getting wrecked in these friendlies
[20:37] <Solecalibur> ya im set just hung up on skype
[20:37] <RT> Yeah, I was having a hell of a day with tripping.
[20:37] <Solecalibur> I was yesterday =(
[20:37] <RT> So...I started like not cragin.
[20:37] <RT> *caring.
[20:37] <RT> Brawl has hating on me hard yesterday.
[20:38] <D_Disciple> me too
[20:38] <D_Disciple> about tripping
[20:38] <D_Disciple> should've been in the School is in Session 3 stream RT
[20:38] <D_Disciple> Atomsk and I were going on and on about random ****
[20:38] <RT> I saw only part of it.
[20:38] <@HealthyWaveK> oh and
[20:38] <@HealthyWaveK> D
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> Late message that I had super fun with you last weekend
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> I picked up
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> some random
[20:39] <D_Disciple> same here, was mad fun.
[20:39] <Solecalibur> that trip that atomsk's team had?
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> virus/strep throat
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> the day right after though
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> =(
[20:39] <D_Disciple> It wasn't me
[20:39] <RT> Lol
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> hm
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> Anyways
[20:39] <@HealthyWaveK> GAMEPLAN VS ZOOT SOOT
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> like uh
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> Aurasphere
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> like
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> a lot
[20:40] <RT> Don't get spaced by here SideB.
[20:40] <D_Disciple> and Peach
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> Learn SideB Powershield timing
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> and know how to SDI the front hit
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> Don't try to punish downsmash itself
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> punish what they're gonna buffer right afterwards
[20:40] <D_Disciple> if they try to hit you with the 3rd jab, you can perfect shield it.
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> meh
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> I like
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> SDIing it up
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> and dairing them
[20:40] <@HealthyWaveK> <_<
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> uhhhh
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> If you're really beast
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> at SDI
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> like muah
[20:41] <Solecalibur> Zss will normally go with the 3rd jab after jab 2 , Zss will try jab1 dtilt , jab1 roll
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> You can SDI most Dsmash follow-ups
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> itno the ground
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> except for like
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> upair
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> 75% of the time I always SDI bair/fair into the ground
[20:41] <@HealthyWaveK> and tech it
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> uhhhh
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> Be careful with whiffing dair
[20:42] <Solecalibur> uair has more disjoint then dair
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> because ZSS has amazing vertical jump speed
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> and WILL punish it
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> it does sole
[20:42] <Solecalibur> if you had dair out we can still uair (this isnt even perfect spacing it)
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> BUT
[20:42] <D_Disciple> yeah, I don't really like being directly above ZSS now
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> Ussually
[20:42] <Solecalibur> usually means the zss is not spacing it right
[20:42] <D_Disciple> use to them using up b and dairing beating every party of it
[20:42] <@HealthyWaveK> I dair most Zero Suits <_<
[20:43] <D_Disciple> then found out usmash beats us.
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> OH YEAH
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> like
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> if you time dair
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> you can beat the whole UpB animation
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> clanking with it
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> LOL
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> but its not really
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> that useful
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> just funny
13[20:43] * Quits: @AlexoftheAura (Quit: *swish*)
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> ****
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> Alex has **** to do
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> I guess I'm in charge again
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> uh
[20:43] <Solecalibur> nair is better to clank her upB
[20:43] <@HealthyWaveK> Be wary
[20:44] <@HealthyWaveK> of the times where it LOOKs like you can punish them, [they FF bair into you/SideB or something]
[20:44] <@HealthyWaveK> because sometimes they'll get dat frame1 jab on you and its annoying if you don't expect it
[20:45] <@HealthyWaveK> if the zero suit is trying to utilt OOS
[20:45] <@HealthyWaveK> bait it, it gets you lotsssss of free stuff.
[20:45] <Solecalibur> if zss jabs you in the air obv you cant get out plan your next move afterwards instead of wasting your time
[20:45] <@HealthyWaveK> I noticed better ZSS will just uair or dtilt OOS though
[20:45] <@HealthyWaveK> yeah that too
[20:46] <@HealthyWaveK> DON'T BE STUPID WITH YOUR EXTREMESPEED
[20:46] <Solecalibur> OOS bair is also pretty safe if you can space it
[20:46] <Solecalibur> Footstool off stage = bad postion for lucario
[20:46] <@HealthyWaveK> Zero Suit can Dsmash us out of it
[20:46] <D_Disciple> or utilt
[20:46] <@HealthyWaveK> which leads to footstool
[20:46] <Solecalibur> ^^^
[20:46] <@HealthyWaveK> which leads to a TERRIBLE position.
[20:46] <@HealthyWaveK> but no really though
[20:46] <D_Disciple> and that **** vid that Nick Riddle posted
[20:47] <Solecalibur> normally a dair will come into play we cant fully gimp you after footstool
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> Aurasphere usage
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> is the name of the game here.
[20:47] <RT> Her DownB.
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> it reliable beats all of her moves.
[20:47] <Solecalibur> low % aura clashes with nB
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> except for the times they can tip sideB
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> with it
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> uh
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> If you get Dash attacked
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> at I think
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> like
[20:47] <@HealthyWaveK> 30-40ish
[20:48] <Solecalibur> Down B always sheild never spot dodge and/or airdodge if possible
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> She can lock you into for like once or twice
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> Don't count on gimping zero suit
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> unless they're DUMB
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> and sideB tether
[20:48] <RT> Yes.
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> from all the way
[20:48] <RT> SideB tether.
[20:48] <RT> Up tether.
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> across the stage
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> er
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> like
[20:48] <Solecalibur> good zss will not get gimped
[20:48] <RT> DownB footstool off of you.
[20:48] <Solecalibur> for the most part
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> EDGE -----------------------------------> ZSS
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> her SideB is long
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> but if she does it from too fair
[20:48] <@HealthyWaveK> you can reliably run off
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> and fair her from the coil in
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> ... I kinda
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> learned this the hard way
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> >_>
[20:49] <Solecalibur> be careful also with your stage control when she is recovering
[20:49] <D_Disciple> better with uair
[20:49] <Solecalibur> she can also forward b and not tether instead
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> [have gotten zelda fair'd out of the SideB coil in the other day... not pretty]
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> ;_;
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> oh yeah
[20:49] <@HealthyWaveK> sometimes she'll use downB as a get out of jail free card from our jab stuff
[20:50] <Solecalibur> btw got the data for the dash attack
[20:50] <Solecalibur> Lucario 44 62
[20:50] <@HealthyWaveK> ok I was close
[20:50] <Solecalibur> she can dash lock from 44% to 62%
[20:50] <RT> Yeah, her DownB is pretty good priority and lasts quite a bit.
[20:50] <Solecalibur> just being specific helps 4 the ppl reading
[20:50] <@HealthyWaveK> ummmmmmmmmm
[20:50] <@HealthyWaveK> if she whiffs grab
[20:50] <@HealthyWaveK> You can walk up and dsmash
[20:50] <@HealthyWaveK> or slight charge it
[20:50] <@HealthyWaveK> its pretty laggy
[20:51] <Solecalibur> she can footstool off of down b she can have a long lasting attack , most zss might aim at the tip of a platform for a zero lag
[20:51] <RT> I usually just Force Plam grab.
[20:51] <RT> *Palm
[20:51] <@HealthyWaveK> that works too
[20:51] <@HealthyWaveK> but I like to keep mine fresh
[20:51] <@HealthyWaveK> because Zero Suits
[20:51] <@HealthyWaveK> like us kinda
[20:51] <@HealthyWaveK> have sucky OOS options
[20:51] <Solecalibur> another mistake is to pay attention to %s just dont grab zss when she wiffs a grab
[20:52] <D_Disciple> she whiffs a grab, it's a free whatever for us.
[20:52] <Solecalibur> I've won sets because of this
[20:52] <@HealthyWaveK> won sets because of what?
[20:52] <D_Disciple> people not paying attention to her percent
[20:52] <D_Disciple> when she whiffs a grab
[20:52] <@HealthyWaveK> oh
[20:52] <Solecalibur> i know im just saying , I wiffed a grab once lucario grabed me when I was at 150% instead of a fsmash (plenty of time)
[20:52] <RT> Obviously watch out for her DownB spike attempts.
[20:52] <Solecalibur> its sort of like a "duh" thing but just saying
[20:52] <Solecalibur> also her dair (mostly nick riddle lol)
[20:52] <@HealthyWaveK> Oh yeaaaaaaaaaaah
[20:53] <RT> lol
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> her back roll
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> is **** terrible
[20:53] <Solecalibur> if she gets the footstool she can dair lucario and take him with her
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> so
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> if they're stuck in their shield
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> keep that in mind that ussually they'll try to Froll instead
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> what else..
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> Don't trade hits with her in the air
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> its not worth it
[20:53] <RT> She's relatively light.
[20:53] <@HealthyWaveK> fair < her back air
[20:54] <@HealthyWaveK> 1 hit of dair < her uair
[20:54] <D_Disciple> yeah, everytime I tried to get a string going against YBM, he kept uairing me.
[20:54] <Solecalibur> SDIing her fair is pretty simple
[20:54] <RT> Her Uair too good.
[20:54] <@HealthyWaveK> Yesss
[20:54] <@HealthyWaveK> its my favorite move
[20:54] <Solecalibur> very little frames for it to come out
[20:54] <D_Disciple> I just call her the human form of Lucario
[20:54] <RT> LOL
[20:54] <@HealthyWaveK> what
[20:54] <@HealthyWaveK> no not even
[20:55] <@HealthyWaveK> wait
[20:55] <Solecalibur> lemme find the frames it takes for uair to come out..
[20:55] <@HealthyWaveK> isn't it frame 4
[20:55] <@HealthyWaveK> but yeah
15[20:55] <Linkshot> Yeah it's Frame 4.
[20:55] <@HealthyWaveK> I'm
[20:55] <Solecalibur> somewhere around there
[20:55] <@HealthyWaveK> just going
[20:56] <@HealthyWaveK> ****
[20:56] <@HealthyWaveK> where is it
[20:56] <@HealthyWaveK> Stauffy VS Kokaloo
[20:56] <@HealthyWaveK> Kokaloo isn't a top ZSS [no offenssse]
[20:56] <@HealthyWaveK> but
[20:56] <RT> And Lucario's dair is like frame 4 right?
[20:56] <@HealthyWaveK> Stauffy shows how to play the MU
[20:56] <@HealthyWaveK> yes
[20:57] <RT> So you can see the problem there.
[20:57] <RT> lol
[20:57] <RT> Who hits who first.
[20:57] <RT> lol
[20:57] <RT> Or airdodge and pray you don't get read.
[20:57] <D_Disciple> I'm just thinking it's best to keep her in the air, just above us.
[20:57] <@HealthyWaveK> yeah
[20:57] <RT> Yeah.
[20:57] <Solecalibur> also away ,
[20:57] <@HealthyWaveK> she's a little vulnerable
[20:57] <@HealthyWaveK> from beneath
[20:58] <RT> She can only dair or airdodge if we're below her.
[20:58] <Solecalibur> She also is very weak to sheilding , once Zss can get past that with grabs just bait the grab
[20:58] <RT> Or come down with DownB.
[20:58] <D_Disciple> If you can get a worm's eye view of her ***, you're doing the match up right
[20:58] <RT> Lol Disciple
[20:58] <Solecalibur> lol
[20:58] <@HealthyWaveK> loool
[20:58] <@HealthyWaveK> soo true
[20:58] <D_Disciple> We're discussing peach in here too right?
[20:58] <@HealthyWaveK> Save it for next week
[20:58] <@HealthyWaveK> I have
[20:58] <@HealthyWaveK> good relations
[20:58] <@HealthyWaveK> with the peach board
[20:58] <RT> I could discuss Peach.
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> being the ****** trap I am ;o
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> just don't
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> well
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> lets take a vote
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> Do we want praxis in here
[20:59] <D_Disciple> not really, but k
[20:59] <RT> No.
[20:59] <D_Disciple> rather have Nicole or Raz, if he's around
[20:59] <RT> LOL
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> Ok
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> good
[20:59] <@HealthyWaveK> <3 you guys
[20:59] <RT> I've played quite a few Peaches to understand the matchup pretty well.
[21:00] <Solecalibur> ugh i hate peach with lucario
[21:00] <D_Disciple> but what else can ZSS do to us though, that we need to be wary of?
[21:00] <Solecalibur> My zss doesnt have many problems with peaches so im just gonna go lol
[21:00] <Solecalibur> oh still talking about zss?
[21:00] <@HealthyWaveK> Yes
[21:00] <@HealthyWaveK> Zoot Soots
[21:00] <Solecalibur> Armor
[21:00] <Solecalibur> kinda important
[21:00] <@HealthyWaveK> ^
[21:00] <RT> Which piece does more damate?
[21:00] <RT> *damage
[21:00] <@HealthyWaveK> forgot about that
[21:01] <Solecalibur> Bouncing her armor = good item control
[21:01] <Solecalibur> not sure tbh
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> they do like
[21:01] <RT> Mmm.
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> 10 or something
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> on hit
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> and have good KB
[21:01] <Solecalibur> also zdroping is wonderful with it
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> ^
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> You can
[21:01] <RT> They have item shieldstun.
[21:01] <Solecalibur> I cant think of any good followups lucario has
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> just
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> z drop
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> dair
[21:01] <@HealthyWaveK> <_<
[21:02] <Solecalibur> other then get Lucario=L Zss=Z Armor=A with it bouncing then pressure from there L Z A
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> or item catch at the same time while hitting
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> with fair
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> and then toss the item at her
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> but thats gimmicky
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> oh
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> item control tidbit with luc
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> If you run and catch an item off the ground with an immeaditae fair
[21:02] <@HealthyWaveK> you can buffer an aerial right afterwards
[21:02] <Solecalibur> Also dont touch the armor if its still bouncing lol
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> yeaah ^
[21:03] <Solecalibur> ^^ unless something like that
[21:03] <D_Disciple> would have them bounce, throw them up, grab to dthrow, have the item hit and follow up.
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> Also
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> the armors hitbox
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> isn't really that big
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> so if you have good timing
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> You can catch it
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> I've done it before
[21:03] <Solecalibur> you can jab it if its infront of you to Neutralize it
[21:03] <@HealthyWaveK> and I've seen people like Warp Status do it
[21:03] <Solecalibur> I know if you just throw it at zss she can jab and say k thx for armor
[21:04] <@HealthyWaveK> Take note
[21:04] <Solecalibur> so you have to be creative
[21:04] <@HealthyWaveK> of how the zero suit plays with her armor
[21:04] <D_Disciple> it's just like Melee Flame, you can catch em the same way
[21:04] <@HealthyWaveK> Some of them like to be defensive with it
[21:04] <@HealthyWaveK> But most of them like to be aggressive with it from the get go <<
[21:05] <@HealthyWaveK> intant throwing them is good too
[21:05] <@HealthyWaveK> I like to instant throw it up
[21:05] <@HealthyWaveK> so its still around
[21:05] <Solecalibur> Some will throw away one or two , see if you can catch one at the start of the match (unless they turn around)
[21:05] <@HealthyWaveK> and its in my control
[21:05] <Solecalibur> Armor doesnt have its timer disappearing when its bouncing
[21:05] <@HealthyWaveK> oh yeah ircc
[21:06] <@HealthyWaveK> im not really sure actually but
[21:06] <@HealthyWaveK> I THINK Armor beats our AS
[21:06] <RT> Yeah.
[21:06] <RT> It does.
[21:06] <RT> It clanks.
[21:06] <@HealthyWaveK> so yeah if they randomly keep armor around by the time you're in the 100s
[21:06] <RT> While in the air and bouncing.
[21:06] <@HealthyWaveK> keep that in mind
[21:06] <RT> Think of it like Gyro.
[21:06] <Solecalibur> didnt know that lol , never seen a lucario charge his AS when he might be getting rushed with pieces
[21:07] <Solecalibur> Armor also stales
[21:07] <Solecalibur> for some reason zdrop unstales if it hits (like a seperate attack)
[21:07] <RT> AS charge->glidetoss armor piece->AS throw.
[21:07] <D_Disciple> a great set up
[21:07] <D_Disciple> especially with banana
[21:08] <Solecalibur> getting off topic off can you glide toss -) grab if they sheild it (and its from reasonable distance?)
[21:09] <@HealthyWaveK> Yeah
[21:09] <Solecalibur> kk jw
[21:09] <@HealthyWaveK> our grab is fast
[21:09] <D_Disciple> I should work on that
[21:09] <@HealthyWaveK> unlike ZSS grab
[21:09] <@HealthyWaveK> LOL
[21:09] <@HealthyWaveK> its sooo bad =(
[21:09] <RT> Good stages and bad stages?
15[21:09] <Linkshot> Frame 87 is when they get control back >.>
[21:09] <Solecalibur> rofl
[21:09] <D_Disciple> oh yeah, can't forget stages
[21:09] <D_Disciple> we got FD
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> FD is good
[21:10] <D_Disciple> We always have FD lol
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> I PERSONALLY
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> like Siege agaisn't them
15[21:10] <Linkshot> Lylat Cruise
15[21:10] <Linkshot> Byebye ZSS
[21:10] <Solecalibur> I'd prefer BF/Llyat
15[21:10] <Linkshot> Byebye suit pieces
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> what
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> Cruise is good for Zero suit
15[21:10] <Linkshot> On Lylat
[21:10] <Solecalibur> not if you know how to bounce it =3
[21:10] <D_Disciple> Flame, you like Siege against anyone
15[21:10] <Linkshot> If the stage starts on the right section
15[21:10] <Linkshot> The pieces just bounce off.
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> no no no
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> D hear me out D:
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> like
[21:10] <@HealthyWaveK> on Castle
[21:11] <@HealthyWaveK> one of the pieces starts to drop on the main plat on Castle1
[21:11] <@HealthyWaveK> and in Castle2 sideB becomes less of an option because the IMMENSE hitlag
[21:11] <@HealthyWaveK> and by the time you get to castle3 its FD that tilts
[21:11] <RT> Flamey and his campaigning for Castle Siege.
[21:12] <@HealthyWaveK> :<
[21:12] <@HealthyWaveK> on the flipside if the armor pieces try to stick around
[21:12] <RT> What stages does ZSS like besides Lylat?
[21:12] <@HealthyWaveK> things can get a little interesting
[21:12] <@HealthyWaveK> Zero Suits like cruise
[21:12] <Solecalibur> MLG -) I'd prefer to take lucario to BF/PS1/Halberd/Delfino/Lyat/CS/SV/YI/FD
[21:12] <@HealthyWaveK> Rainbow
[21:12] <D_Disciple> that's a lot of stages
[21:13] <@HealthyWaveK> No stage is generally bad for them
[21:13] <Solecalibur> im saying from best to worst
[21:13] <@HealthyWaveK> except for frigate
[21:13] <Solecalibur> 2nd part of the stage helps us a lot
[21:13] <RT> What about Japes?
[21:13] <@HealthyWaveK> not really
[21:13] <@HealthyWaveK> We DEFINETELY beat her there
[21:13] <Solecalibur> Take her there if the TO was dump enough to add that janky stage
[21:13] <@HealthyWaveK> <_<
[21:13] <RT> Lol
[21:13] <Solecalibur> dumb**
[21:13] <Solecalibur> that stage is ....ugh
[21:14] <@HealthyWaveK> um
[21:14] <@HealthyWaveK> I hear
[21:14] <RT> Haha.
[21:14] <@HealthyWaveK> differing opinions
[21:14] <@HealthyWaveK> about brinstar
[21:14] <@HealthyWaveK> is it good or bad
[21:14] <@HealthyWaveK> for zoot soot
[21:14] <Solecalibur> I feel you guys wanna be grounded more then she does and with the stage constanly moving it puts you in the air and in a bad postion
[21:15] <@HealthyWaveK> yeah
[21:15] <@HealthyWaveK> Hm...
[21:15] <Solecalibur> I really havnt been cp'd to brinstar (or even a lucario willing to go to brinstar) in my area as I took a game off m2k there (lol it was a fluke though)
[21:15] <@HealthyWaveK> LOL
[21:15] <@HealthyWaveK> well uh
[21:16] <@HealthyWaveK> In terms of stage size
[21:16] <D_Disciple> Lucario and Brinstar against a ZSS is eh
[21:16] <@HealthyWaveK> Do you think its better to have a large stage to live longer
[21:16] <D_Disciple> it's all on who can take advantage of the acid rising up the most.
[21:16] <Solecalibur> yes very yes
[21:16] <RT> I don't think I'eve ever seen anyone take a ZSS to Brinstar.
[21:16] <RT> lol
[21:16] <@HealthyWaveK> or a smaller one to close the gap on zero suit
[21:16] <Solecalibur> smaller is bad imo , you do want small horizontal and large verital
[21:16] <D_Disciple> if she has us on the edges or on the top platform, she can pressure us with her aerials a lot
[21:16] <Solecalibur> YI and FD screams this
03[21:17] * Joins: AlexoftheAura
[21:17] <D_Disciple> and the little bumps, can keep her armor pieces juggling for a bit too
03[21:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +o AlexoftheAura
[21:17] <@HealthyWaveK> hm
[21:17] <@HealthyWaveK> Aighty
[21:17] <@HealthyWaveK> I think
[21:17] <@HealthyWaveK> We've wrapped it up
[21:17] <@HealthyWaveK> well enough
[21:17] <Solecalibur> alright cool...
[21:17] <@HealthyWaveK> unless anyone has anything to add?
[21:17] <@HealthyWaveK> I GUESS NOT
[21:17] <Solecalibur> nope
[21:18] <@HealthyWaveK> meeting ajourned[/collapse]

Click to expand...

Red Ryu said:

[collapse= Ice Climbers][21:46] *** Topic is Welcome to #LucarioMeta, a room dedicated to serious Lucario metagame discussion. This week's meeting is concerning the ICs matchup, to discussed at 8 PM EST on Sunday. Don't miss it!
[21:46] *** Channel mode is +tnz
[21:54] <RedRyu>
[21:56] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ?
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> D is on the way
[21:58] <RedRyu> sorry someone else typed on my keyboard
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> problems with mIRC
[21:58] <RedRyu> :?
[21:58] *** D_Disciple has joined #LucarioMeta
[21:58] <RedRyu> :/
[21:58] <D_Disciple> there
[21:58] <RedRyu> she does that somethimes
[21:58] <RedRyu> sometimes*
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Who
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> :3c
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Red has a girl?
[21:58] <RedRyu> Roomates girlfriends
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh
[21:58] <RedRyu> I don't
[21:58] <RedRyu> I'm not cool enough
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> how boring xc
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Anyways
[21:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> uh
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> nothing was discussed yet
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> GO
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Someone try to get other people in here
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I'll tolerate even kita for the time being
[21:59] <RedRyu> I can get Kita
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I would prefer if you get IC people though
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe RJ
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe whats his name
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> RT
[21:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe trela and smoom
[22:00] <RedRyu> dang it, he might be away from his comp
[22:00] <D_Disciple> we need some ICs
[22:01] <RedRyu> Alex said he posted but
[22:01] <RedRyu> no one showed up yet
[22:02] <RedRyu> seems just like when the Link's tried doing it with them as well, one IC showed up with a bunch of Link mains
[22:02] <RedRyu> I'll try and find some Ics
[22:03] <RedRyu> on their boards
[22:07] *** Browny has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:07] <Browny> lol i forgot this place exists
[22:07] <RedRyu> :/
[22:13] *** Browny has left #LucarioMeta
[22:14] <RedRyu> no luck so far
[22:15] *** RT has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:16] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> so how long until we call it mission fai-
[22:16] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh hey RT
[22:16] <RT> Gentlemen.
[22:17] *** RT has quit (Quit: Bye!)
[22:17] *** RT has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:17] <RT> I can easily sum up the matchup in a few words.
[22:17] <RT> Don't get grabbed.
[22:17] <RT> lol
[22:18] <RT> Also, IC mains are trying toying with a new idea that involves only grabbing and not damaging Lucario at all with stray attacks.
[22:18] <RT> So that he never gets Aura.
[22:18] <RedRyu> wut
[22:18] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> so no ice blocks?
[22:18] <RT> No.
[22:18] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> sweet
[22:18] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh
[22:18] <RT> Just wait for the mistake and grab.
[22:19] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> normally I just stand there and let me ice block me to 100%
[22:19] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if I lose the stock lead early on
[22:19] <RT> Yeah, that's the point.
[22:19] <RedRyu> I just platform camp
[22:19] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> its kinda no brainer
[22:20] <RT> *mistake
[22:20] <RT> Mmm.
[22:20] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> what you do
[22:20] <RT> Other than that.
[22:20] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> when you have the lead in the MU
[22:20] <RT> Lead?
[22:20] <RT> I just camp.
[22:20] <RT> LOL
[22:20] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Same here
[22:20] <RedRyu> I jump on platforms
[22:20] <RT> Never approach ICs unless you have to.
[22:20] <RedRyu> like if I'm on BF
[22:20] <RT> Even then, approach catiously.
[22:20] <RedRyu> platforms is where it's at
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I stand on platforms and bait upairs
[22:21] <RedRyu> Lee spams dair a lot
[22:21] <RedRyu> against IC
[22:21] <RT> Yes, platform camp when possible.
[22:21] *** Lux has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:21] <RT> Avoid FD.
[22:21] <RedRyu> at least thats what it looked like against Lain
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ofc
[22:21] <Lux> hi
[22:21] <Lux> I am an ice climber main
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ICs will always take us to like
[22:21] <Lux> and I will be fielding questions
[22:21] <Lux> go
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> SV and BF
[22:21] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> right
[22:22] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> "What do you hate in this MU"
[22:22] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> go
[22:22] <Lux> Well, I hate the many misconceptions out there on the match up itself.
[22:23] *** philnyeynlihp has joined #LucarioMeta
[22:23] <philnyeynlihp> how'd it go?
[22:23] <Lux> To be fair, I haven't been playing Lee Martin, but every Lucario main I've played I've beaten :\
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> pfft.
[22:23] <Lux> So I don't understand where the supposed Lucario "advantage" comes from
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> region?
[22:23] <philnyeynlihp> Which Luc mains have you beaten?
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it comes from you guys messing up the CG
[22:23] <RT> It only comes when you guys mess up the grabs and we get Aura.
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and then we're at like broken mode
[22:23] <RT> lol
[22:23] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and we kill you in 2 or 3 hits
[22:23] <Lux> oh ok
[22:23] <RedRyu> kinda
[22:24] <RT> And then Nana is like, "SWEET, A PIT. I'M GOING IN!!!11!!"
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> except we're assuming they don't mess up
[22:24] <RedRyu> it's that and Lucario ability to separate them
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> rofl
[22:24] <D_Disciple> ****
[22:24] <Lux> If you're operating on the conception that Lucario is hard to CG, then it's bad
[22:24] <D_Disciple> I forgot I was in here -_-'
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> that's a bad mentality
[22:24] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Not really
[22:24] <Lux> but you guys need to operate the match up on A. What separates and B. What gimps nana
[22:24] <RT> No, Lucario isn't hard, lol.
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> bthrow -> fthrow
[22:24] <D_Disciple> my mentality in the IC match up now is, don't approach
[22:24] <philnyeynlihp> A. dair B. Fair/dair
[22:24] <RedRyu> Lucario's dair seems to do it, but it's not safe on block
[22:24] <RT> ^this.
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Never approach
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Ever
[22:25] <Lux> I was going to say that
[22:25] <RT> ^This
[22:25] <RedRyu> unless you don't have the lead
[22:25] <D_Disciple> I learned that the hard way against Lain yesterday
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> GAY THE GAYEST GAY YOU EVER GAYED
[22:25] <RT> And call all pause DQs, LOL.
[22:25] <philnyeynlihp> rofl
[22:25] <D_Disciple> and I need to break my habit of dairing after fair!
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I think
[22:25] <RT> I actually had a chance to in a local tourney but didn't.
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if we're really high %
[22:25] <philnyeynlihp> So Lux what lucs have you played?
[22:25] <RT> I lost because of that, LOL.
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> we can shoot charged spheres
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> over ice blocks
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and hit ICs
[22:25] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I've done it once
[22:25] <Lux> the only out of region that I've been to was Supercon
[22:26] <Lux> I don't remember who I beat
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I heard supercon was a flop
[22:26] <Lux> there were 3 luca mains there though
[22:26] <Lux> yeah, like only 45 people
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Steam
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Random Lucario 2
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Random Lucario 3
[22:26] <philnyeynlihp> Maybe Fonz?
[22:26] <philnyeynlihp> idk
[22:26] <RT> Only ICs I get to play is Smoom, and he's decent with the grab deaths.
[22:26] <Lux> lol smoooooom
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> well duh
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> his brother is trela
[22:26] <RT> Smooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom.
[22:26] <RT> Haha.
[22:26] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> He's not allowed to lose to lucarios
[22:27] <Lux> TBH, the only real "safe" move you guys have is Fair imo
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> walking is safe.
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but yeah
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> wait
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> retreating bair is good
[22:27] <D_Disciple> oh yeah guys
[22:27] <Lux> in my experience, if you do any grounded moves, it should be a grab
[22:27] <RedRyu> Dair is kinda safe if Lucario saves his second jump and spaces it right
[22:27] <D_Disciple> I SDI'd the usmash after a cg
[22:27] <RT> I always mass suicide against Smoom.
[22:27] <D_Disciple> and tech the stage
[22:27] <RT> At two recent locals, I SD'd a combined total of four times.
[22:27] <RT> It was awesome.
[22:27] <Lux> it doesn't hit box close enough to the ground for it to really matter
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Yeah you can do that D
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but
[22:27] <D_Disciple> ask Hylian and Future and some others that saw it
[22:27] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they can just regrab you after
[22:28] <Lux> if they do that, we can just DSG and grab
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> :<
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if you techroll though...
[22:28] <D_Disciple> nah, I tech rolled it
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they have to read it
[22:28] <D_Disciple> like I was hella far from him though
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I personally just mash out of charge upsmash
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and roll after.
[22:28] <philnyeynlihp> good thing luc fthrow is fast
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh yeah
[22:28] <philnyeynlihp> just like ROB's fthrow/bthrow
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if you EVER grabs ICs
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> pummel 1st
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and then throw
[22:28] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if they're near each other
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> the Pummel will stun them for a bit and let you throw them safely most of the time.
[22:29] <D_Disciple> you know what upsetted me
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Its also nice to note that fthrow and uthrow have hitboxes while throwing
[22:29] <philnyeynlihp> I haven't played the MU much
[22:29] <Lux> DSG says no to that :\
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> while dthrow and bthrow don't
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> DSG
[22:29] <Lux> we can just elect to not drop shield and then dsmash
[22:29] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> explains
[22:29] <D_Disciple> I knew all this info, but didn't perform any of it in match against Lain yesterday
[22:29] <D_Disciple> until my last stock
[22:29] <Lux> DSG = Dash Cancel Shield Grab
[22:30] <Lux> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286235
[22:30] <RedRyu> Well D, I think Practice is the ony thing that can get the mindet in
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> oh
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> that
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> uh
[22:30] <Lux> it literally BREAKS the match up
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I don't really use terms like that
[22:30] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but ok
[22:30] <D_Disciple> yeah I know of that Lux
[22:30] <Lux> everyone does
[22:30] <Lux> But it means that if you let the IC control the spacing
[22:30] <D_Disciple> it's that melee too.
[22:30] <Lux> any of your grounded moves are not safe
[22:30] <Lux> and by not approaching ever, you let them control the spacing
[22:31] <D_Disciple> yeah I know
[22:31] <D_Disciple> unless you don't perfect shield
[22:31] <D_Disciple> we can still get a lot of shield pushes off
[22:31] <Lux> misconceptoin
[22:31] <Lux> if they are able to get a dash off
[22:31] <Lux> and come in with DSC slide
[22:31] <Lux> they don't need to powershield
[22:31] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Hm
[22:31] <Lux> unless you tipper fsmash
[22:31] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Well theorycraft is good and all
[22:31] <Lux> it works
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but you have anything where this applied?
[22:32] <philnyeynlihp> what advantage do moves need to have to be safe against it?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> that's what I'm saying or fully charged aura spheres
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> no refuting, just curious
[22:32] <philnyeynlihp> Like framewise?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> also, the other thing
[22:32] <Lux> frame wise?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> does Blizzard have the same effect against aura sphere like DK's bair
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> what no
[22:32] <Lux> well you have the shield flash from 1-3 frames right?
[22:32] <D_Disciple> like our fully charged aura sphere wont beat it until we're at a higher percent?
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Aurasphere goes through blizard
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> like
[22:32] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> all the time
[22:32] <RedRyu> Blizzard doesn;t beat Aura sphere I think
[22:32] <Lux> and then hitbox for standing grab will come out on frame 6 if they initiate grab on frame 3 of shield
[22:32] <D_Disciple> well it did yesterday
[22:33] <Lux> if they do frames 1 and 2, frame 7
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> no, blizzard doesn't clash w/ anything
[22:33] <D_Disciple> Blizzard beat my aura sphere
[22:33] <RedRyu> Peach's turnips go though it
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it shouldn't have
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> wait, it does?
[22:33] <D_Disciple> it was fully charged
[22:33] <Lux> lucario's lingering hit box means that most likely they aren't dropping early
[22:33] <RT> Wat?
[22:33] <Lux> so it's going to be a standing grab
[22:33] <D_Disciple> future did an aerial blizzard, and it beat it
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> thats odd
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> so let's say a move has -8 in advantage
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Get videos
[22:33] <D_Disciple> and he still hit me.
[22:33] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> seriously
[22:33] <philnyeynlihp> is DSG safe against it?
[22:33] <Lux> there really isn't move that you're going to have advantage on it with hitstun
[22:33] <Lux> because the theory behind it is
[22:33] <Lux> they are shield sliding during the engagement range
[22:34] <Lux> and grabbing on hit stun
[22:34] <Lux> so even if you did jab that's like 4 frames
[22:34] <D_Disciple> Like I literally relearned everything yesterday against ICs and was like, I have a lot of work to do.
[22:34] <Lux> the range they spend in the jab's zoning they are in shield
[22:34] <Lux> and you can keep jabbing, which they don't drop shield
[22:34] <philnyeynlihp> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76McM5CdO1k
[22:35] <Lux> but if you do anything else out of a jab cancel, I don't think you have enough frames
[22:35] <Lux> right
[22:35] <Lux> I told someone to make that video
[22:35] <Lux> lol
[22:35] <Lux> I wrote the DSG thread
[22:35] <Lux> that works because Nado comes out 6 frames every hit box
[22:35] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I have to eat dinner, bbl. continue without me.
[22:36] <Lux> and the hit stun from nado gives an IC 2 frames leeway of window to pull it off
[22:36] <philnyeynlihp> so basically this thing has become a dair camp or die sorta thing, right?
[22:37] <Lux> Dair isn't safe on shield either
[22:37] <Lux> :\
[22:37] <Lux> well if they shield cancel a dash it isn't
[22:37] <Lux> I don't know about standing
[22:37] <Lux> I haven't tested it
[22:37] <RedRyu> I thought if spaced correctly and Lucario doesn't use his second jump it was safe
[22:37] <philnyeynlihp> even if they do SH immediate dair from a plat?
[22:38] <philnyeynlihp> like where they land back on the plat after the dair?
[22:38] <Lux> hmm
[22:38] <Lux> I don't know if there's enough time from the dair hitstun
[22:38] <Lux> to jump back up
[22:38] <Lux> in my experience there isn't
[22:38] <philnyeynlihp> it's not a jump back up sorta thing
[22:38] <Lux> although I've been told if spaced with the very tip it is
[22:38] <philnyeynlihp> yeah
[22:39] <Lux> but that's a very narrow window
[22:39] <Lux> on a moving target
[22:39] <Lux> with infinite punishment if you mess up
[22:39] <RedRyu> Like when I watched Lee vs Lain at Apex
[22:39] <philnyeynlihp> basically you stand on a plat, jump but imediately do a dair after (kinda looks like a SHFFL'd aerial, only it isn't)
[22:39] <Lux> right
[22:39] <RedRyu> he used Dair so much
[22:39] <philnyeynlihp> uuuuh, yeah
[22:39] <Lux> Lain isn't caught up on the metagame stuff
[22:39] <Lux> so he didn't dsg
[22:39] <Lux> I hadn't written the thread yet haha
[22:40] <Lux> I want to dissect that video
[22:40] <Lux> because there were like 6 times that a DSG would have gotten a grab
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[22:40] <D_Disciple> yeah he's gonna focus more on ICs in singles though
[22:40] <D_Disciple> I hope, that's what a lot of suggested at Hot ****ings
[22:40] <D_Disciple> keep the MK for teams, bring out the ICs in singles only
[22:40] <philnyeynlihp> I'd like to see what you can do with DSG aside from dash -> shield, b/c isn't that kinda telegraphed?
[22:40] <Lux> there are a lot of things
[22:40] <philnyeynlihp> although you also have Dash dance to help
[22:40] <Lux> you should read the thread
[22:41] <Lux> it's a lot of IC tech, but it's interesting
[22:41] <Lux> IC's are unusual in the metagame where the easy counter to the sliding shield is to grab it before they grab you
[22:41] <Lux> but you can't really do that with IC's because of the second climber
[22:42] <philnyeynlihp> okay, so let's say there's a luc ftilt, which has a min. advantage of -6 at 0% and a max of -4 at higher percents
[22:42] <Lux> if you only pummel once, you better hope they drop shield or you could be trading 6% for a dsmash
[22:42] <philnyeynlihp> brb gotta go
[22:42] <Lux> you better be frame perfect then?
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[22:43] <Lux> because anything more than 2 frames off on that frame trade and you're getting grabbed
[22:43] <RedRyu> so staying in the air is better is what your saying?
[22:43] <Lux> yes
[22:43] <Lux> or platform camp
[22:43] <Lux> and use the your rolls
[22:43] <Lux> BF is better than SV
[22:43] <Lux> because if you platform camp
[22:43] <Lux> we don't have a platform cancel to sneak in a grab
[22:44] <RedRyu> alright
[22:44] <RT> Yeah.
[22:44] <RT> Always try BF.
[22:44] <Lux> right
[22:44] <RedRyu> So your saying Sura sphere and spaced Fsmash is all he has that is safe on the ground
[22:44] <Lux> aurasphere is pretty useless
[22:44] <Lux> because IB beats it
[22:44] <RedRyu> well yeah
[22:44] <RedRyu> but I mean on block
[22:44] <Lux> spaced fsmash is risky as hell
[22:44] <Lux> oh
[22:44] <Lux> yeah
[22:44] <Lux> FAIR
[22:45] <Lux> I think fair is the safest move you guys have in the matchup
[22:45] <Lux> but that's my opinion
[22:45] <Lux> again, haven't played a top level Luca
[22:45] <Lux> would love to
[22:45] <RedRyu> of course
[22:45] <RedRyu> even looking back at Lain vs Lee
[22:45] <RedRyu> I understand why dair was used so much
[22:45] <RedRyu> it separates so well
[22:46] <RedRyu> if used right
[22:46] <RedRyu> but
[22:46] <RedRyu> I can't get over that it's not very safe on block
[22:46] <RedRyu> unless Luc saves his jump
[22:46] <RedRyu> even then
[22:46] <RedRyu> it's hard
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[22:47] <phi1ny3> back, sorry about that
[22:48] <RedRyu> np
[22:48] <phi1ny3> so to repeat the question, how effective would DSG work against poke oriented moves that are very safe?
[22:48] <Lux> hmm
[22:48] <phi1ny3> so like poking tilts
[22:48] <Lux> Jabs I know work
[22:48] <Lux> umm
[22:49] <Lux> what's the hitbox on ftilt?
[22:49] <D_Disciple> what about our dtilt?
[22:49] <Lux> Uptilt doens't work because the front hit box comes out too late
[22:49] <D_Disciple> how effective do you think that would be?
[22:49] <phi1ny3> Yeah dtilt too
[22:49] <phi1ny3> utilt in general is lol on block
[22:49] <RedRyu> Dilt is simular to Ftilt is range
[22:49] <D_Disciple> we can rotate the utilt though
[22:49] <phi1ny3> dtilt has more horizontal range than ftilt
[22:49] <RedRyu> it's it lol on block though?
[22:49] <Lux> but in theory
[22:50] <RedRyu> isn't*
[22:50] <Lux> on a True DSG, they are going to powershield the move
[22:50] <phi1ny3> dtilt is -6
[22:50] <Lux> because it's supposed to be a 3 frame shield flash
[22:50] <phi1ny3> naw, it's fairly safe, but it isn't like marth dtilt safe
[22:50] <Lux> you have to factor in the next move
[22:50] <RedRyu> huh, I've been thinking that move wrong then
[22:50] <phi1ny3> then ftilt is that two hit move that has like a -6 or -4 depending on percents
[22:51] <Lux> right
[22:51] <Lux> but pure disadvantage is factored for the next possible move which is shield right?
[22:51] <Lux> you can't do that because that gets you grabbed
[22:52] <Lux> I don't think any poking moves on the ground are safe on DSG
[22:52] <Lux> except maybe jab
[22:52] <phi1ny3> yuck
[22:52] <Lux> but then jab doens't have enough knockback on shield
[22:52] <Lux> to slide them far enough away
[22:52] <Lux> iirc
[22:53] <phi1ny3> you are right though that fair's safe, Zucco loves this move in the MU
[22:54] <phi1ny3> I think you're correct in that assumption
[22:56] <D_Disciple> which move?
[22:56] <D_Disciple> jab?
[22:56] <RedRyu> I wish I saw more ICies used this tech
[22:56] <phi1ny3> How would this be applied in a defensive position btw? Because I notice that this is more of an approach oriented tech
[22:59] <phi1ny3> k, so I see that fsmash is an option that can be used defensively for this tech as ICs
[23:01] <phi1ny3> So tell me one other thing, you do the DSG and it's a multihit move, how often does nana get hit by the other move? Or can you be frame perfect and shield w/ both climbers to avoid getting hit?
[23:02] <phi1ny3> b/c I saw in the vid that nana sometimes got hit and sometimes didn't, but I'm not sure as to whether that's because of the tornado's hitbox refresh didn't start yet or what
[23:03] <RedRyu> I'm trying to figure what is safe and what they can reasonably react to and grab us
[23:05] <RedRyu> of so jab is frame 6
[23:05] <RedRyu> Ftilt is frame 12
[23:06] <RedRyu> Dtilt is frame 9
[23:07] <RedRyu> Fsmash is like frame 20 or something lol
[23:07] <RedRyu> If I'm understanding this right
[23:07] <phi1ny3> fsmash is good if you strutterstep and charge (found out how to do both at the same time, it's pretty nifty)
[23:08] <RedRyu> to do the tech
[23:08] <RedRyu> you need to know your going to shield something
[23:08] <RedRyu> because a mix-up can screw this up
[23:08] <phi1ny3> thats true
[23:08] <phi1ny3> now stages
[23:08] <phi1ny3> obv. brinstar if it doesn't get banned rofl
[23:08] <RedRyu> or BF
[23:09] <RedRyu> BF is mad good
[23:09] <RedRyu> however
[23:09] <phi1ny3> BF's great starter
[23:09] <phi1ny3> SV can help too, but it's also kinda scary
[23:09] <Lux> back
[23:09] <Lux> Umm Ftilt is good hitting Nana out of DSG
[23:10] <Lux> because sometimes if I don't read the ftilt, I'll shield drop
[23:10] <Lux> but the problem is that nana is running behind
[23:10] <Lux> so the move doesn't typically hit
[23:10] <Lux> her
[23:10] <Lux> because she's lagging it
[23:11] <RedRyu> doesn't this cause some problems though?
[23:11] <RedRyu> like, if she's lagging behind
[23:12] <RedRyu> wouldn't this mean Popo or Nana would be off key for a PS?
[23:12] <Lux> right
[23:12] <Lux> but you don't NEED to powershield things to grab
[23:12] <Lux> as long as you're in grab range
[23:13] <RedRyu> this is true
[23:14] <Lux> right
[23:14] <Lux> so if you're hitting nana with a move
[23:14] <Lux> it means popo is that much closer
[23:14] <Lux> aka in grab range
[23:15] <Lux> FORTUNATELY Lucario has the lowest solo dthrow cg
[23:15] <Lux> I'm think
[23:15] <RedRyu> he doesn't
[23:16] <Lux> who does?
[23:16] <RedRyu> jiggs is lower I think
[23:16] <RedRyu> 16% compared to 31%
[23:16] <Lux> oh
[23:16] <Lux> that would be right
[23:16] <Lux> but it's relatively low lol
[23:16] <Lux> let me fact check
[23:16] <RedRyu> he's tied with Samus with 31%
[23:16] <RedRyu> but yeah he's really low
[23:17] <RedRyu> poor Wolf
[23:17] <RedRyu> 98%
[23:17] <RedRyu> wtf he gets so much BS on him
[23:17] <phi1ny3> plus you can do dtilt on him, right?
[23:17] <phi1ny3> like afterward
[23:17] <RedRyu> yeah...
[23:17] <phi1ny3> ew
[23:18] <RedRyu> so solo Dthow CG isn;t too much of a worry
[23:19] <RedRyu> 31% is pretty low
[23:19] <RedRyu> King DDD goes to 103%...wow
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[23:20] <RedRyu> back to stages
[23:20] <RedRyu> Ban FD
[23:20] <RedRyu> every time
[23:21] <phi1ny3> lol
[23:21] <RedRyu> I heard it's possible to beat them there
[23:21] <RedRyu> but I wouldn't even try it
[23:22] <RedRyu> cause I can;t think of any other stage that they do better on
[23:22] <Lux> umm
[23:22] <Lux> yeah
[23:22] <Lux> ban FD
[23:23] <RedRyu> So in the air
[23:23] <Lux> you need platforms to safe land on
[23:24] <RedRyu> with Ice climbers, what purpose does each aerial surve?
[23:24] <RedRyu> like Uair is spacing
[23:24] <RedRyu> and or killing in some situations
[23:24] <RedRyu> but the others, I;m not sure
[23:26] <phi1ny3> bair is pretty good for following chars that kinda horizontally escaped uair's spacing
[23:27] <phi1ny3> nair's good for space control/ use in conjunction w/ desynch blizzard
[23:28] <phi1ny3> and sometimes good in some situations for reading since you can hit them on a weak low trajectory and read the getup if they don't tech, pretty rare though
[23:28] <phi1ny3> love doing that on a ledgehop though
[23:29] <RedRyu> and Dair sucks right?
[23:29] <phi1ny3> oh yeah and bair/uair can be used for landing lag desynchs
[23:29] <phi1ny3> so great for ending a juggle and getting quickly back to desynched stuff
[23:29] <phi1ny3> dair's pretty bad yeah
[23:30] <phi1ny3> although you can alter its horizontal movement a bit
[23:30] <phi1ny3> iirc
[23:30] <phi1ny3> fairs a bit more obvious
[23:30] <phi1ny3> only for reading the occasional air dodge or possible kill, and spiking purposes
[23:31] <phi1ny3> btw I hate playing ICs on wifi lol
[23:31] <phi1ny3> remember when I did some friendlies w/ you Red?
[23:31] <RedRyu> yeah
[23:31] <RedRyu> lol
[23:31] <phi1ny3> like I could NOT ever get a CG to work rofl
[23:32] <RedRyu> I wish my comp didn't screw up I had replays of it lol
[23:32] <phi1ny3> lol
[23:32] <RedRyu> Fino did the infinite on me on wifi on the AiB ladder
[23:32] <phi1ny3> too good
[23:32] <RedRyu> then he switched to Olimar and ***** me
[23:33] <RedRyu> but yeah
[23:33] <phi1ny3> Oh yeah the usmash hobble is really fun, and it changes everyone's opinion about how boring hobble is
[23:33] <phi1ny3> although it's still a terrible way to get damaged lol
[23:34] <RedRyu> From what I'm getting from what had been said thus far
[23:34] <RedRyu> on how this MU works
[23:34] <phi1ny3> Like I was showing Felix and some OR players how you can do bthrow -> footstool -> Ice block and charge a smash w/ nana as they getup, then regrab just after she smashes
[23:34] <phi1ny3> it's a lot of fair and dair and some weird hit and run play
[23:34] <RedRyu> Lucario needs to mix-up ground moves
[23:35] <RedRyu> like he can;t get read
[23:35] <RedRyu> air is better
[23:35] <phi1ny3> and try to cross up on shield if you can
[23:35] <phi1ny3> it'll be pretty rare since IC walls cover a loooot lol
[23:35] <RedRyu> Something I learned
[23:35] <RedRyu> like if they get really shield happy and your sure they won't spotdodge
[23:35] <RedRyu> ,just grab them and Fthrow
[23:36] <RedRyu> I'm careful about that
[23:36] <RedRyu> because it's something that can be baited and the risk for falling for it is pretty high
[23:37] <phi1ny3> yeah
[23:37] <phi1ny3> I wanted to hear what Zucco had to say about the MU
[23:37] <phi1ny3> aside from Cheese he's beaten a lot of ICs lol
[23:37] <RedRyu> Cheese never used ICs on me on the AiB ladder
[23:38] <RedRyu> he used random characters half of the time
[23:38] <RedRyu> except when he loses
[23:39] <Lux> haha oh Cheese
[23:39] <RedRyu> I even asked him who he mained because he seemed to be a raondom main on the ladder
[23:42] <Lux> So to summarize my thoughts, I think with some of the new stuff the IC's have been finding, the matchup is solidly in our favor. I think that none of your ground moves are safe if you aren't controlling the spacing of the match. In terms of aerials, Fair and Dair are your best bets, but even Dair is risky. Platform camping is your friend. Otherwise you are screwed
[23:42] <RedRyu> I think this is even from this dicussion this far
[23:43] <Lux> your guys opinion, not mine :\
[23:43] <RedRyu> I wish I could have seen moire Icies using that AT
[23:43] <Lux> a lot of them use it intuitively
[23:43] <RedRyu> that would influence me a lot depending on how often they could do it
[23:43] <Lux> they just haven't dissected it enough to know how to utilize it to the maximum
[23:43] <RedRyu> and reliably in a match
[23:43] <RedRyu> like
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Ok
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Been back
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> uh
[23:43] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Someone please get me a log of this :< if possible.
[23:44] <RedRyu> Still, your opinion is valid
[23:44] <RedRyu> since you gave good inputs
[23:44] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> mmmhmm
[23:44] <RedRyu> and showed you had a grap of what ICies can do
[23:44] <Lux> lol
[23:44] <Lux> what's good for you guys is that Lucario is a pretty weird match up for us
[23:45] <Lux> because it's not like "grab them if they are on the ground" "Uair them if they are in the air"
[23:45] <RedRyu> I wish people would stop dropping the CG
[23:45] <RedRyu> on Lucario
[23:45] <Lux> we lose the latter option because of your dair
[23:45] <RedRyu> but the ground one remains valid, in your opinion correct?
[23:45] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I wish
[23:45] <Lux> right
[23:45] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> More ICs
[23:46] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> played like kakera though :<
[23:46] <phi1ny3> if wishes were fishes
[23:46] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they'd be funner to watch
[23:46] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> IC matches are still hype though
[23:47] <RedRyu> I'll avoid a ratio on this mu
[23:47] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Same here
[23:47] <RedRyu> because I don't think I'm experiancing what this mu is truely like
[23:47] <RedRyu> and
[23:47] <RedRyu> something's aren;t set in astone
[23:48] <RedRyu> so anywhere from 4:6 - 6:4 or something I won't question until I truely learn this
[23:49] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I maintain the stance that its even or slight IC advantage, simply because we're human and whatnot.
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if we were perfect and ICs never ****ed up the CG ever it would be ICs advantage no doubt
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> but
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> they do
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> We can take advantage
[23:50] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> :>
[23:50] <RedRyu> yeah
[23:50] <phi1ny3> and lol CPs are win
[23:50] <RedRyu> oh yeah
[23:50] <RedRyu> I forgot
[23:51] <RedRyu> IC aren;t great on a lot of cps
[23:51] <RedRyu> they have good stages ans nuetral for them
[23:51] <RedRyu> but
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Doesn't matter.
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> GAME 1
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> WIN OR LOSE
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> welp theres the set
[23:51] <RedRyu> not quite
[23:51] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> just note
[23:52] <RedRyu> where can Icies take Lucario that would make this really bad for it
[23:52] <RedRyu> other than FD
[23:52] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> true true
[23:52] <RedRyu> Lucario
[23:52] <RedRyu> has a few toys
[23:52] <RedRyu> like Brinstar
[23:52] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I don't like brinstar
[23:52] <RedRyu> really?
[23:52] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ever since my friend learned the %s where to kill with upsmash early
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it evens out the Lava saving me sometimes
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> and even then
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> most ICs ban it
[23:53] <RedRyu> Ok, how about Cruise?
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> meh
[23:53] <D_Disciple> stalling for a split second in the lava on brinstar is hella fun
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I would rather
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Take them to Frigate
[23:53] <RedRyu> or that
[23:53] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> or Lylat
[23:53] <RedRyu> not sure on Lylat
[23:53] <D_Disciple> take ICs to frigate?
[23:54] <D_Disciple> that's really annoying
[23:54] <phi1ny3> what about PS1?
[23:54] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> I don't like PS1
[23:54] <phi1ny3> Or if it's allowed in your area, Japes?
[23:54] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> the layout isn't that great for plat camping
[23:54] <phi1ny3> Japes promotes lots of camping
[23:54] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Japes is good
[23:54] <phi1ny3> and iirc ICs get lol'd in the water
[23:55] <D_Disciple> if you fight them around where the stage transformation breaks up the cg, it makes it really annoying for them to play on that stage
[23:55] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> eh
[23:55] <phi1ny3> yeah the stage transformations always make them drop a CG
[23:55] <phi1ny3> on PS1
[23:55] <D_Disciple> the transformations help us out a lot too if you want to camp them.
[23:55] <phi1ny3> although I can see Ice blocks get really nasty
[23:55] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> maybe
[23:55] <D_Disciple> grass stage and water stage are awesome
[23:55] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> in like
[23:56] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Bo5+ matches
[23:56] <phi1ny3> imo halberds a really good CP for them and not just because of the ceiling
[23:56] <phi1ny3> like for ICs to use
[23:56] <RedRyu> Battlefield Yoshi's Island Smashville Lylat Cruise Pokémon Stadium Final Destination Castle Siege Delfino Plaza Halberd
[23:56] <phi1ny3> because on the transition part of the stage, Ice blocks can control really well
[23:57] <RedRyu> those are the 9 possible starters
[23:57] <RedRyu> so any stike people as good
[23:57] <RedRyu> or bad
[23:57] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Real Quick Question
[23:57] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Battlefield or Yoshis
[23:57] <RedRyu> BF personally
[23:57] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> if someone use the SV/BF/Yoshis spread
[23:58] <phi1ny3> hmmm
[23:58] <RedRyu> I'd strike SV on that list
[23:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Anyways
[23:58] <RedRyu> or Yoshi's
[23:58] <RedRyu> bdepnding
[23:58] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> when faced with something like MLG tier neutral striking.
[23:59] <phi1ny3> imo depends on how comfortable the ICs player is on the stages
[23:59] <phi1ny3> I've seen some **** stuff happen on BF
[23:59] <phi1ny3> I personally like this stage
[23:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Be an ******* and get rid of FD, SV,BF really quickly
[23:59] <RedRyu> siege seems alright until the 3rd transformation
[23:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> coz like
[23:59] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> ussually those are the 3 most ICs are comfortable on right?
[23:59] <phi1ny3> but I know a lot of ICs don't
[23:59] <phi1ny3> yeah
[00:00] <phi1ny3> and you can get some gimmicks coming off of stage tilts
[00:00] <RedRyu> So for Castle siege
[00:00] <phi1ny3> but some ICs are pretty smart w/ stage layout so it's eh
[00:00] <RedRyu> it's bad on the third part
[00:00] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Siege isn't good at all
[00:00] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> VS ICs
[00:00] <RedRyu> yeah like I thought
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> You're only REALLY advantegeus on 1st
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> 2nd is a toss-up
[00:01] <phi1ny3> hey guys whaddaya think about Delphino? seems like a wildcard
[00:01] <RedRyu> ICies CP'd me there
[00:01] <RedRyu> I dunno why
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Delf is nice
[00:01] <phi1ny3> yeah the stage kinda lends itself to either dumb or cool stuff imo
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> it benefits both parties kinda equally
[00:01] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> We can do pseudo sharking there
[00:02] <RedRyu> but then they get FD like areas
[00:02] <phi1ny3> and there's Ice block rebound areas that are dumb sometimes
[00:02] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> Ledge-drop -> Jump -> Uair -> ES -> choose which side you want to grab = lol
[00:02] <RedRyu> yeah that works
[00:03] <RedRyu> If norfair is legal I think it;s a good idea
[00:03] <phi1ny3> yeah you could play a very dumb sharking game
[00:03] <phi1ny3> norfair is lol
[00:04] <RedRyu> I hear mario bros is in ther favor heavily
[00:04] <RedRyu> two turtles wtf
[00:04] <RedRyu> lol
[00:04] <phi1ny3> lol
[00:04] <phi1ny3> imma go now
[00:04] <phi1ny3> good to see the productive discussion
[00:04] <phi1ny3> btw guys look into uthrow more, it's ****
[00:05] <RedRyu> ok
[00:05] <RedRyu> I'll work on getting this chat recorded
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> D
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> pass me the log later
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> or Ryu
[00:05] <FlameWaveK|HatesKita> either one
[00:05] <RedRyu> I'll PM it
[00:05] <phi1ny3> it's like I looked into this and in some MUs you get small to medium rewards for relatively little risk

enjoy.[/collapse]

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Linkshot said:

Gonna lurk this chat. Need a Luc community that isn't full-on fur******ry.

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Xaoz said:

Phil, I'm going to need you to change the ownership of this group from me to FlameWaveK. I'm not going to be reliable in updating and hosting discussions, as I've decided to drop Lucario.

Thank you.

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