MaskedAvnger
Smash Journeyman
Matchup Rediscussion: Marf
Go for it, He rocks us more than we thought originally maybe.
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion: Marth
- Thread starter MaskedAvnger
- Start date
Go for it, He rocks us more than we thought originally maybe.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
I'm still in the opinion that this matchup is around 55-45 in Marth's favor.
It's a pretty simple matchup on paper.
Marth wants to: Get through projectiles as quickly as possible, and set himself up just inside zair's max range. From there he pressures TL and racks up damage. The goal is to basically get him off stage where you can easily take 30-40% in a lot of scenarios, and sometimes you can get the kill.
TL wants to: Setup from long range, boomerang is great for setting up traps and bombs are vital. Bombs are far more difficult to PS than arrows and boomerangs, and having a bomb bounce off Marth's shield is a great position for TL. It limits Marth a lot and forces him to either retreat or try and grab the bomb. Arrow canceling after aerials and bomb pulls are extremely important, as they force Marth to shield on almost all of TLs landings and make a lot more difficult for him to punish your whiffs. Zair obviously outranges everything we have (though shieldbreaker is close) and it is extremely useful in this matchup. Marth can usually take advantage of TL's landings with zair though unless it's spaced perfectly. Offstage TL can edgeguard decently, zair is great for edgeguarding as well as projectiles.
Marth has a slightly easier time killing TL than vice versa, though it is a problem for both characters.
All in all, it's a close matchup, but the fact that Marth really WRECKS TL when he puts him in a bad position makes me think that Marth has the advantage.
I can elaborate more if anybody wants, this is my most experienced matchup.
It's a pretty simple matchup on paper.
Marth wants to: Get through projectiles as quickly as possible, and set himself up just inside zair's max range. From there he pressures TL and racks up damage. The goal is to basically get him off stage where you can easily take 30-40% in a lot of scenarios, and sometimes you can get the kill.
TL wants to: Setup from long range, boomerang is great for setting up traps and bombs are vital. Bombs are far more difficult to PS than arrows and boomerangs, and having a bomb bounce off Marth's shield is a great position for TL. It limits Marth a lot and forces him to either retreat or try and grab the bomb. Arrow canceling after aerials and bomb pulls are extremely important, as they force Marth to shield on almost all of TLs landings and make a lot more difficult for him to punish your whiffs. Zair obviously outranges everything we have (though shieldbreaker is close) and it is extremely useful in this matchup. Marth can usually take advantage of TL's landings with zair though unless it's spaced perfectly. Offstage TL can edgeguard decently, zair is great for edgeguarding as well as projectiles.
Marth has a slightly easier time killing TL than vice versa, though it is a problem for both characters.
All in all, it's a close matchup, but the fact that Marth really WRECKS TL when he puts him in a bad position makes me think that Marth has the advantage.
I can elaborate more if anybody wants, this is my most experienced matchup.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
i heard marth has a harder time killing then tl
Chsal
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
- Messages
- 214
I feel this is a pretty bad matchup for TL actually...
Marth can approach with SH double Fairs which cancel all our projectiles but bombs.
Zair isn't all that great because if it isn't perfectly spaced we are right in tipper range...
He also has that Grab -> Tipper combo on 0%.
And I think he has an easier time killing too. Especially if he knows how to tipper Nair.
However, I feel we can edgeguard Marth pretty well. His recovery is almost always going to be from below the ledge, so I usually run off and Dair, regardless of whether it will spike him or not, as he is forced to :
A) Airdodge, we both die. (Rarely happens though.)
B) UpB. Hits are traded, he may be spiked from the spike hitbox, or he gets stagespiked.
Or, if I'm not really feeling all that confident, I just ledgehog as usual and exploit tether regrab invincibility frames.
Of course, this is only if you can get him off...
Marth can approach with SH double Fairs which cancel all our projectiles but bombs.
Zair isn't all that great because if it isn't perfectly spaced we are right in tipper range...
He also has that Grab -> Tipper combo on 0%.
And I think he has an easier time killing too. Especially if he knows how to tipper Nair.
However, I feel we can edgeguard Marth pretty well. His recovery is almost always going to be from below the ledge, so I usually run off and Dair, regardless of whether it will spike him or not, as he is forced to :
A) Airdodge, we both die. (Rarely happens though.)
B) UpB. Hits are traded, he may be spiked from the spike hitbox, or he gets stagespiked.
Or, if I'm not really feeling all that confident, I just ledgehog as usual and exploit tether regrab invincibility frames.
Of course, this is only if you can get him off...
mmm
1. We edge guard toon link hard core.
2. We gimp toon link better than most characters (lag of his up b is instant ledge grab bait, invincibility + transcended priority of up b beats out his up b, our fair, nair whack everything tl has off stage... our back air will beat zair if we're in that position.
3. Killing... mmm... yeah we can have a hard time killing TL traditionally.
4. Getting past projectiles isn't easy, but we have the tools to do so.
Marth can dolphin slash from below the stage and ledge snap from a noticeable horizontal distance.
Your down air does not cover that.
Tether regrab is TL's best/only gimping strategy against Marth bar some really good reads on zair, boomerang and some nair/fair (and I mean..> REALLY GOOD READS)
1. We edge guard toon link hard core.
2. We gimp toon link better than most characters (lag of his up b is instant ledge grab bait, invincibility + transcended priority of up b beats out his up b, our fair, nair whack everything tl has off stage... our back air will beat zair if we're in that position.
3. Killing... mmm... yeah we can have a hard time killing TL traditionally.
4. Getting past projectiles isn't easy, but we have the tools to do so.
Marth can dolphin slash from below the stage and ledge snap from a noticeable horizontal distance.
Your down air does not cover that.
Tether regrab is TL's best/only gimping strategy against Marth bar some really good reads on zair, boomerang and some nair/fair (and I mean..> REALLY GOOD READS)
MJG
Smash Hero
Edge Guarding is the biggest issue for me in this match up.
I got some better insight in the MU after playing mikehaze this weekend but it is still hard IMO...not too bad though.
I got some better insight in the MU after playing mikehaze this weekend but it is still hard IMO...not too bad though.
QUIVO
Smash Master
Handle marth with one projectile at a time. If you do too much, you get *****. If you follow up, be intelligent about it since his fair comes out fast with that little hit stun.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
TL will gets ***** if marth gets momentum. Don't let him grab you.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I beat MikeHAZE in a friendly in the dumbest way possible. Vids soon to come.
I don't care how much he was sandbagging, how significantly better he is then me, how hard he ***** me most other games, ***** got down smashed.
I don't care how much he was sandbagging, how significantly better he is then me, how hard he ***** me most other games, ***** got down smashed.
Here are my thoughts on the MU.
Pros
~Spaced Z-Air outranges all of Marth's moves, except Shield Breaker.
~Toon Link has a D-Smash gimp.
~Toon Link has Z-Air and can exploit invincibility frames on the ledge.
~Toon Link can camp Marth and build up damage incredibly fast. Marth is light!
~Toon Link does well against generally all characters at not getting grabbed. IMO.
~Toon Link's D-Air beats Marth's U-Tilt - almost always.
~U-Air is incredibly good. I'm not sure if you have to space it but Counter doesn't work against it and as we all know Marth doesn't like being on top of people.
Cons
~Marth outranges all your moves, especially when you don't space Z-Air.
~Marth almost always beats Toon Link off stage.
~Marth's Counter is incredibly good in this MU (IMO) especially against projectiles.
~Marth has more killers plus tipper.
~Marth's D-Air doesn't always spell death when missed.
~Tippered N-Airs or F-Airs can lead to quick kills or gimps off stage.
~Marth can steal Toon Link's Bombs and use them for himself. (easy use items unlike Grenades y'know?)
~Marth cheats and ***** when he has momentum. Combination of speed and pressure make it extremely difficult to camp is possible at all.
I am indecisive as to what the ratio would be but I feel Marth has the advantage here. When I play Toon Link or watch Marth vs Tink games I (with all do respect) have more confidence that the Marth will win. Although its not a complete **** advantage like what I feel Marth has against GaW or something its definitely an advantage.
50:50 at best and 60:40 at worst. So I guess 55:45 to Marth?
Pros
~Spaced Z-Air outranges all of Marth's moves, except Shield Breaker.
~Toon Link has a D-Smash gimp.
~Toon Link has Z-Air and can exploit invincibility frames on the ledge.
~Toon Link can camp Marth and build up damage incredibly fast. Marth is light!
~Toon Link does well against generally all characters at not getting grabbed. IMO.
~Toon Link's D-Air beats Marth's U-Tilt - almost always.
~U-Air is incredibly good. I'm not sure if you have to space it but Counter doesn't work against it and as we all know Marth doesn't like being on top of people.
Cons
~Marth outranges all your moves, especially when you don't space Z-Air.
~Marth almost always beats Toon Link off stage.
~Marth's Counter is incredibly good in this MU (IMO) especially against projectiles.
~Marth has more killers plus tipper.
~Marth's D-Air doesn't always spell death when missed.
~Tippered N-Airs or F-Airs can lead to quick kills or gimps off stage.
~Marth can steal Toon Link's Bombs and use them for himself. (easy use items unlike Grenades y'know?)
~Marth cheats and ***** when he has momentum. Combination of speed and pressure make it extremely difficult to camp is possible at all.
I am indecisive as to what the ratio would be but I feel Marth has the advantage here. When I play Toon Link or watch Marth vs Tink games I (with all do respect) have more confidence that the Marth will win. Although its not a complete **** advantage like what I feel Marth has against GaW or something its definitely an advantage.
50:50 at best and 60:40 at worst. So I guess 55:45 to Marth?
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
Haha thanks? xD
Its just my opinion. Maybe 60:40 then but I definitely don't think 65:35.
You need to use Captain Falcon because he's OP. Its like 100:0 Falcon-Marth.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Marth's Neutral B outranges our Zair.
Woah! I never knew that. I guess its because I hardly ever use normal B because I always feel I have "better" options.
Thanks for that. ^^
#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2010
- Messages
- 3,739
MK doesn't have a zair.
Anyways, this matchup's definitely in Marth's favor. 60-40? 55-45?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
This is the first time I like a darkhorse post lol. Good shie.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
To be honest...I really respect that post.
In fact, I just want all you Toon Link mains to know I respect you. I don't want to admit that I'm too weak, but I couldn't do it anymore. I didn't want to always feel like I'm at a disadvantage when Snake's at 180% and I'm at 50%. I didn't want to get gimped again. I didn't want ****ing Wario to run away from me for seven minutes until I get impatient and he farts on me. I don't want to have to maintain the level of patience it takes to play Tink. I don't even like spamming. Why the **** did I name myself Demonic Toon Link??!?!?
Really, even you Dark Horse. I respect you guys. I actually have a lot of Toon Link knowledge that I just couldn't put into practice that I want to share with you guys. Hit me up.
Actually, they do that now. At least Mike did against me. And Havok. And Tyrant. Alright, they all do. It's hard to get in cuz you MIGHT get upB'd.
Yeah.
But really, it's not something that gets too much attention.
In fact, I just want all you Toon Link mains to know I respect you. I don't want to admit that I'm too weak, but I couldn't do it anymore. I didn't want to always feel like I'm at a disadvantage when Snake's at 180% and I'm at 50%. I didn't want to get gimped again. I didn't want ****ing Wario to run away from me for seven minutes until I get impatient and he farts on me. I don't want to have to maintain the level of patience it takes to play Tink. I don't even like spamming. Why the **** did I name myself Demonic Toon Link??!?!?
Really, even you Dark Horse. I respect you guys. I actually have a lot of Toon Link knowledge that I just couldn't put into practice that I want to share with you guys. Hit me up.
Oh yeah, this. Sorry for posting like a **** and thanks for you positive attitude. And it's completely practical for you not to know that. Why would Marth be spacing with Neutral B?
Actually, they do that now. At least Mike did against me. And Havok. And Tyrant. Alright, they all do. It's hard to get in cuz you MIGHT get upB'd.
Yeah.
But really, it's not something that gets too much attention.
#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2010
- Messages
- 3,739
By our, I was thinking you meant your main, which is MK.
Please, don't try and deny that.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
What? No, I main MK and I openly admit that...See:
Do you see how it shows an MK after my name? And THEN a Toon Link? That means I still use him in tournament and win with him. But I main MK. For instance, if I'm fighting a Snake on FD, I'd go Tink. Ice Climber's, too.
Do you see how it shows an MK after my name? And THEN a Toon Link? That means I still use him in tournament and win with him. But I main MK. For instance, if I'm fighting a Snake on FD, I'd go Tink. Ice Climber's, too.
#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2010
- Messages
- 3,739
Good. At least you're not ALL mk.
And I was thinking you might go "No, he's my secondary who I use more than my main!"
And I was thinking you might go "No, he's my secondary who I use more than my main!"
NH Cody
Smash Champion
I think it's 50-50
based on my experience of playing a Marth at my last tourney
seems straightforward/even to me...
based on my experience of playing a Marth at my last tourney
seems straightforward/even to me...
I personally think it's 45-55
Marth's fair out prioritizes everything except bombs which makes it hard for us. Also we're heavily gimpable off stage due to our recovery. Though for me personally I haven't had much trouble with marth mains. I seem to do fine against them if I space well enough.
Marth's fair out prioritizes everything except bombs which makes it hard for us. Also we're heavily gimpable off stage due to our recovery. Though for me personally I haven't had much trouble with marth mains. I seem to do fine against them if I space well enough.
KT Kasrani
Smash Champion
marth vs tink is 50-50. i have no trouble with marths at all you just have to kno the MU. im really good at it.
something i tell everyone who plays a marth. when he jumps he will always da a fair. he might not do it as soon as he jumps but it will come out. jus shield and nair.
something i tell everyone who plays a marth. when he jumps he will always da a fair. he might not do it as soon as he jumps but it will come out. jus shield and nair.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
FINALLY someone who agrees with me and Jerm lol
thank you KT
thank you KT
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
no just..............no
Azuraith
Smash Apprentice
IMO its 55-45 for marth, maybe even 60-40
basicly everyone already said it but 1. if marth gets you pressured its very ahrd to camp him and catch up in percents.
2. marth has better aerials since they tend to come out faster and have greater range. only Z-air can outspace his aerials and only if done properly.
3. toonlink can be ledge guarded fairly easily by marth his Fsmash and Fair are great for edge guards since his Fsmash is so god**** fast and Fair is annoying we cant do much once on the ledge.
4. toonlink can camp for a while but can only be held up for so long, and in early percents its more difficult to camp since we cant hit marth away so marth gets good early leads.
5. marth is just overall faster and has better killing moves Fsmash vs Fsmash marth wins its super fast and Tl's can be DI'ed. Upsmash is really Tl's only good killing move since his Fair can easily be counterd or outspace by Fair on marth.
6. imo gimping potential is even on both sides simply because of projectiles.
yea... tahts all i can think ofXD
basicly everyone already said it but 1. if marth gets you pressured its very ahrd to camp him and catch up in percents.
2. marth has better aerials since they tend to come out faster and have greater range. only Z-air can outspace his aerials and only if done properly.
3. toonlink can be ledge guarded fairly easily by marth his Fsmash and Fair are great for edge guards since his Fsmash is so god**** fast and Fair is annoying we cant do much once on the ledge.
4. toonlink can camp for a while but can only be held up for so long, and in early percents its more difficult to camp since we cant hit marth away so marth gets good early leads.
5. marth is just overall faster and has better killing moves Fsmash vs Fsmash marth wins its super fast and Tl's can be DI'ed. Upsmash is really Tl's only good killing move since his Fair can easily be counterd or outspace by Fair on marth.
6. imo gimping potential is even on both sides simply because of projectiles.
yea... tahts all i can think ofXD
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
ya know what good marths beat any good tls?
KT Kasrani
Smash Champion
I jus beat pierce in tourny today. Soooooooo.
KT Kasrani
Smash Champion
i usually jus invincibomb onto the stage. i also jus started to use the demonic zair in my game. that ish is so good.
but the basic marth MU is zair outranges everything he has. dont roll against him. invinvibomb in to him. and never fight him
but the basic marth MU is zair outranges everything he has. dont roll against him. invinvibomb in to him. and never fight him
NH Cody
Smash Champion
It's this ^
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Just wanna say I didn't come up with that insanely gay name for it.
KT Kasrani
Smash Champion
u did. it is ur name