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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #25: Ness
- Thread starter Marc
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The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Shaky!
Ness hits hard. Ness can hit really **** hard. Strongest Dair in the game at lower percentages means Ness can turn a match around in a moments notice with some smart playing and clever setups. Shaky is pretty much living proof of this kind of playstyle. You only need to look up his tournament record or watch his famous match with Judge to see this. I feel like Ness is around where he needs to be, but could easily move up a little more (probably never down, I feel he's almost unquestionably better than the characters beneath him). This would b interesting as he would be out of Low Tier tournaments. I love Ness' tools and he has a great surprise factor to him, much like the rest of the characters in his current tier. Unfortunately for Ness, he has a terrible grab release. This is essentially the only thing that keeps him doing so bad in tournament. Grab release shenanigans by characters are just terrible. DK's cargo carry is just depressing.
Ness hits hard. Ness can hit really **** hard. Strongest Dair in the game at lower percentages means Ness can turn a match around in a moments notice with some smart playing and clever setups. Shaky is pretty much living proof of this kind of playstyle. You only need to look up his tournament record or watch his famous match with Judge to see this. I feel like Ness is around where he needs to be, but could easily move up a little more (probably never down, I feel he's almost unquestionably better than the characters beneath him). This would b interesting as he would be out of Low Tier tournaments. I love Ness' tools and he has a great surprise factor to him, much like the rest of the characters in his current tier. Unfortunately for Ness, he has a terrible grab release. This is essentially the only thing that keeps him doing so bad in tournament. Grab release shenanigans by characters are just terrible. DK's cargo carry is just depressing.
People need to abuse Ness's grab release more. Metaknight can short step chaingrab him- no one ever does it with a short step. I showed Edrees this a year ago; I watched Rain do it to AvariceX at Apex, and was satisfied to have finally seen someone abusing it.
Ness' recovery isn't as bad as it seems, but worse than Ness players might think; I also watched Rain's MK Dair through Ness's PKT2, which I didn't know was possible 0.0
Ness has good spacing tools, powerful kill moves, but is unfortunately hobbled by a few key weaknesses (offstage game being limited due to his recovery and his grab release).
Ness' recovery isn't as bad as it seems, but worse than Ness players might think; I also watched Rain's MK Dair through Ness's PKT2, which I didn't know was possible 0.0
Ness has good spacing tools, powerful kill moves, but is unfortunately hobbled by a few key weaknesses (offstage game being limited due to his recovery and his grab release).
Yeah ness' up b doesn't have invincibility for too long IIRC.
Marth can dash off stage counter to lay some hurt on the poor guy.
A solid step above low tier.
But over all too many extremely troublesome match ups to ever be wario style.
MK has grab release dsmash on him.
Snake has grab release utilt
Marth just auto regrabs him with little technical effort and has dsmash on him.
Wario has fsmash (poorrrrrrrrrrrr ness)
etc etc..
In other words, just about every character who grabs ness gets a free kill move on him if they have one under 10 frames.
He has the tools to avoid getting grabbed though.
I consider ness a character who when being better than the opponent can easily take on just about every match up. But using ness against someone of similar skill/knowing the match up has significantly different results.
This is because Ness is not a bad character at all, but A LOT of characters destroy him in punishments. If you're playing someone worse than you, you can out play to avoid getting grabbed... but.... he's not as good as wario at avoiding it... and he can't punish whiffs of the grab like wario can (fsmash, stupidly bad positioning from grabs, wafts).
On the plus side Ness has the strongest back throw in the game (keikaku doori), a nice damage fthrow that ness can read from for further damage with fair/nair/uair (it has near constant knock back), one of the game's best dash grabs (like he's probably top 5 in that regard) and a down air that will pretty much always kill if you don't have floor beneath you with great disjoint (I'm pretty sure it outranges marth/mks uair, but the horizontal reach of both uairs can ensure you avoid the hitbox though [maybe with MK?]).
His jump mechanics are both good and bad for him... they're pretty much match up specific.
Whilst the jump is good against the likes of ICs, Falco, Pikachu... it's just really bad against Meta Knight/Marth/etc
Marth can dash off stage counter to lay some hurt on the poor guy.
A solid step above low tier.
But over all too many extremely troublesome match ups to ever be wario style.
MK has grab release dsmash on him.
Snake has grab release utilt
Marth just auto regrabs him with little technical effort and has dsmash on him.
Wario has fsmash (poorrrrrrrrrrrr ness)
etc etc..
In other words, just about every character who grabs ness gets a free kill move on him if they have one under 10 frames.
He has the tools to avoid getting grabbed though.
I consider ness a character who when being better than the opponent can easily take on just about every match up. But using ness against someone of similar skill/knowing the match up has significantly different results.
This is because Ness is not a bad character at all, but A LOT of characters destroy him in punishments. If you're playing someone worse than you, you can out play to avoid getting grabbed... but.... he's not as good as wario at avoiding it... and he can't punish whiffs of the grab like wario can (fsmash, stupidly bad positioning from grabs, wafts).
On the plus side Ness has the strongest back throw in the game (keikaku doori), a nice damage fthrow that ness can read from for further damage with fair/nair/uair (it has near constant knock back), one of the game's best dash grabs (like he's probably top 5 in that regard) and a down air that will pretty much always kill if you don't have floor beneath you with great disjoint (I'm pretty sure it outranges marth/mks uair, but the horizontal reach of both uairs can ensure you avoid the hitbox though [maybe with MK?]).
His jump mechanics are both good and bad for him... they're pretty much match up specific.
Whilst the jump is good against the likes of ICs, Falco, Pikachu... it's just really bad against Meta Knight/Marth/etc
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
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If you really don't think you can react fast enough via an attack, you can always gimp him WITH YOUR BODY. Put yourself in front of PK thunder to win the game. Other than that and his unfortunate grab release situation, he's got some good things going for him. The funny PK thunder tricks can force people into air dodges (which lead to Ness hitting himself into them) if they're not paying enough attention.
Nair is really good out of shield, his jab is bigger than it looks and is 2 frames, and someone else said something about his damage output (pretty good). If he didn't get gayed so hard on his recovery and via grab releases, I could've seen him being higher.
Nair is really good out of shield, his jab is bigger than it looks and is 2 frames, and someone else said something about his damage output (pretty good). If he didn't get gayed so hard on his recovery and via grab releases, I could've seen him being higher.
Ness has an underrated recovery gimmick though. He maintains full air control while in helpless fall state, unlike most characters who have radically inferior air control while in helpless fall state (Wolf being just hilarious). The only other characters like this by my observation are Lucas and Yoshi, and I'm not sure about Yoshi (it's fairly irrelevant for him in either case). That's not particularly likely to get him back to the stage safely in most situations, but if things are looking grim, he can exploit it oftentimes to turn being gimped into just taking some extra damage by just aiming really high and using air control to go to center stage.
Grab release is pretty bad, but IMO it's better to have a solid moveset that's exploitable by gimmicks than to have a weaker overall moveset. Ness has strong tools but has to avoid gimmicks. I'd much rather use a character like that than a character who just isn't very threatening regardless of abuse. It's kinda the same reason DK is still pretty alright despite having a virtual 100-0 match-up.
In terms of where Ness needs to go, he definitely needs to go up about a full tier. He's better than everyone around him right now and, along with Ike, is one of the most underrated characters right now.
Grab release is pretty bad, but IMO it's better to have a solid moveset that's exploitable by gimmicks than to have a weaker overall moveset. Ness has strong tools but has to avoid gimmicks. I'd much rather use a character like that than a character who just isn't very threatening regardless of abuse. It's kinda the same reason DK is still pretty alright despite having a virtual 100-0 match-up.
In terms of where Ness needs to go, he definitely needs to go up about a full tier. He's better than everyone around him right now and, along with Ike, is one of the most underrated characters right now.
Wario has full air control after his up b as well.
Or something very close to.
Or something very close to.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Ness is like the opposite of bowser. Bowser deserves to go down a lot, while Ness definitely deserves to go up.
His fair is extremely disjointed and can keep people without very long range out (Like Pikachu and Luigi), has a magnet to stop projectile camping from lots of characters (And he can jump, roll, or sidestep from it) His B-throw will kill EVERY CHARACTER from the middle of SV at like...150%.
His PK Fire can rack damage up very quick (Multiple PK Fires, PK FIre to D-throw, PK Fire to Dair to jab lock [Ouch]) and then has good kill options. His uair is serious as hell, killing midweights at like 130 from the ground. His bair will kill off the level at 100% easily, and, of course, PKT2 will kill at <50%. It catches air-dodges like a pro and the actual PKT can set up into it because of its electric properties (They tend to have slightly more hitstun).
His true weakness is him being susceptible to grab release. Ness doesn't slide nearly as far as Lucas, so many characters can get a regrab. That leads to him being taken all the way across the level and put in a bad position. However, being off the level isn't as bad as people thing. DJ Fair can shut down a lot of edgeguarding, as well as DJ Nair (I think nair comes out in like...3-5 frames. Not sure exactly). His PKT moves extremely fast so it is hard to catch it and bump into it, gimping Ness. The fear of missing and getting PKT2'd also wards off many edgeguarding attempts.
Ness should definitely be above where he is. I think he is better than Sheik at least.
His fair is extremely disjointed and can keep people without very long range out (Like Pikachu and Luigi), has a magnet to stop projectile camping from lots of characters (And he can jump, roll, or sidestep from it) His B-throw will kill EVERY CHARACTER from the middle of SV at like...150%.
His PK Fire can rack damage up very quick (Multiple PK Fires, PK FIre to D-throw, PK Fire to Dair to jab lock [Ouch]) and then has good kill options. His uair is serious as hell, killing midweights at like 130 from the ground. His bair will kill off the level at 100% easily, and, of course, PKT2 will kill at <50%. It catches air-dodges like a pro and the actual PKT can set up into it because of its electric properties (They tend to have slightly more hitstun).
His true weakness is him being susceptible to grab release. Ness doesn't slide nearly as far as Lucas, so many characters can get a regrab. That leads to him being taken all the way across the level and put in a bad position. However, being off the level isn't as bad as people thing. DJ Fair can shut down a lot of edgeguarding, as well as DJ Nair (I think nair comes out in like...3-5 frames. Not sure exactly). His PKT moves extremely fast so it is hard to catch it and bump into it, gimping Ness. The fear of missing and getting PKT2'd also wards off many edgeguarding attempts.
Ness should definitely be above where he is. I think he is better than Sheik at least.
T-block
B2B TST
Definitely a character that's been outperforming his tier list position - I think he's pretty solid.
He's beast in the air... pretty average air speed, but good acceleration to that speed, combined with a disjointed f-air, fast n-air (frame 5 btw) and a double jump that allows for some interesting movement. U-air, d-air and b-air are all solid, powerful moves as well.
Most characters can't gimp Ness as easily as people tend to think. You're not going to gimp him unless you can force him to use PKT offstage (dj f-air, dj airdodge) and even then, if he's able to use it high he still has options. Forcing him to use PKT offstage isn't easy and usually happens when he's at higher percents anyways.
Grab release etc. Marth, Squirtle and Charizard can regrab without dashing while forcing ground breaks most of the time. I'm sure other characters can too, but Ness has a good chance of air releasing against them.
He's beast in the air... pretty average air speed, but good acceleration to that speed, combined with a disjointed f-air, fast n-air (frame 5 btw) and a double jump that allows for some interesting movement. U-air, d-air and b-air are all solid, powerful moves as well.
Most characters can't gimp Ness as easily as people tend to think. You're not going to gimp him unless you can force him to use PKT offstage (dj f-air, dj airdodge) and even then, if he's able to use it high he still has options. Forcing him to use PKT offstage isn't easy and usually happens when he's at higher percents anyways.
Grab release etc. Marth, Squirtle and Charizard can regrab without dashing while forcing ground breaks most of the time. I'm sure other characters can too, but Ness has a good chance of air releasing against them.
Anybody can attack Ness's PKT2 on its HEAD. The TAIL has NO HITBOX. This means if you angle PKT2 correctly to react to how your opponent is approaching you, there is no way the opponent can attack it. They will be tailwhipped. It's risky for both characters, so it's not a dealbreaker in the matchup. For example if MK goes for the down air, he can gimp ness. But at the same time he can be tailwhipped for a PKT2 kill. It's not wise of MK to do this when he can simply gimp Ness in so many other ways, trying to attack the PKT2 is the worst possible option for him, so it's not a big deal in the matchup.
Grab release does suck, but Ness has so such great combos and kill potential. He can have a lot of trouble approaching, and his defenses are decent, recovery sucks. He does need to go up. Overall I'd call him completely average, center f the cast.
One of Ness's biggest weaknesses is opponents trying to gimp him while they are at low percentage. They can simply TAKE the PKT2 missile hit, which causes ness to less his PKT2 recovery momentum and likely plummet to death. I hate when this happens. The opponent can do it at low percentages where they know they won't get KO'd from it.
Trying to absorb it by jumping on him is hard. A smart ness will recovery from pretty far away and from at an angle that makes it tough to get on top of him. There's a decent chance you will get tail whipped in a lot of these scenarios. Characters like MK can avoid this easily, but a ton of characters without multiple jumps or horizontal speed won't have much of a chance to gimp.
The best way to gimp ness is to hit HIM while he's trying to PKT2. Then hit him again. With low knockback attacks so he's forced to recovery lower, and likely miss or get edgehogged. Trying to absorb PKT2 or trying to hit it are not reliable and are extremely risky methods of gimping him, and is a significant reason why Ness does well in tournment - people lose random stocks off these misconceptions
I'm gonna steal ESAM's style here:
Fun fact: ness's F-throw has constant knockback no matter what percentage an opponent is at. Hence it is a good move to gimp people at low percentage on walk off edges. Comes in handy.
T-block
B2B TST
I'm pretty sure the knockback isn't constant - it just has very low growth.
Hmm I'll take your word for it. It seems constant because whether they are at 0% or 100% it seems to send them the same, but low growth makes sense too. Either way, the move can be used to gimp unspuspecting players near walk offs (=
Ness outperforms his entire tier and should move up. He has a solid moveset which reliably gets him kills (strongest spike and throw in the game >_>). I think he's good enough at not getting grabbed to not be completely demolished by grab release shenanigans except the really bad ones (Marth, Squirtle/Charizard, DK). Not every character can easily gimp him offstage either, it often seems risky. Basically I think we've put too much weight on his bad matchups, outside of those I think he does relatively fine against several top and high tier characters not named Dedede.
It's not a standard, but when the (small step) infinites on him are banned he really is viable. That suggests to me that even when they are in play we should give him more credit than low tier.
It's not a standard, but when the (small step) infinites on him are banned he really is viable. That suggests to me that even when they are in play we should give him more credit than low tier.
T-block
B2B TST
Squirtle's grab release isn't even that big a deal imo... according to the current air release theory (which I'm not convinced is correct btw, but whatever), Squirtle cannot force a ground release. His pummel doesn't do that much damage, and the best thing he can do out of it is d-throw, which won't kill until 130% or so. Charizard's is slightly scarier, because supposedly he can force a ground release and gets a d-tilt out of it. I often opt to dash grab release him to the edge and then Flamethrower as soon as I ground release off the edge. If you double jumps into the fire he's forced to PKT and you can d-air or jump into the head. If he double jumps away from the fire you can gimp his PKT with f-air, so there's a high chance of taking the stock.
What is current air release theory? Has it changed since a year ago?
T-block
B2B TST
That there's a window during the pummel rhythm (most claim this window corresponds to when the victim is not in "hitstun" from the pummel) where you will air release if you input a jump during your mashing. Some character's pummels give enough hitstun to keep the victim always in hitstun, so they can force a ground release.
It definitely models reality fairly well, but I think there's more to it than that.
It definitely models reality fairly well, but I think there's more to it than that.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
This is true.
If the Ness', in this example, feet are touching the ground.
If the Ness's feet are in the air, he will always be air-released unless in pummel stun. (whatever happens with the pummel and all that)
T-block
B2B TST
I ran tests where Squirtle pummelled Ness at perfect rhythm (every 19 frames for Squirtle). I made Ness air release on frame 2 of the last pummel every time, and I saw both air releases and ground releases.
I'm gonna do more tests as soon as I get home (in a few weeks) and I'll make a video of it or something... maybe I'm testing wrong.
I'm gonna do more tests as soon as I get home (in a few weeks) and I'll make a video of it or something... maybe I'm testing wrong.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
I'm not going to say a lot here because I'm sure the Florida people and their experience with Shaky will have more and better things to say than I.
What I will say is that Ness is a very good solid character who is capable of winning most matchups, despite his glaring issues with being grab-released. He can avoid grabs and has fantastic spacing with f-air, combined with amazing kill power from b-air, u-air, and OH YEAH, BACK THROW LOLOLOLOL.
As Edreeses pointed out, his F-Throw is a set knock back, which makes it great at low percents since it flings them pretty far. It can setup great mind games to go for early d-air or PKT2 kills, or at the very least a good opportunity to rack damage from ledge guarding.
His recovery is bad. PK-Thunder disappearing when it hits someone is terrible for him. Anyone can just jump over him and eat the damage from the PKT ball, causing it to disappear and Ness to fall helplessly to his doom. Additionally, his flying distance is shortened if he connects with anyone on PKT2, which is another part of his recovery that is just really unfortunately terrible.
He's a very viable character who needs a secondary for a few select matchups, but can do surprisingly well on his own.
I will say, however, that I think Lucas is better than Ness. Lucas doesn't have a "real" grab, but the hitboxes on his aerials combined with his aerial momentum and psi-magnet/zap-jump makes him extremely difficult to predict or punish. He also has a better recovery and still maintains superb damage wracking and killpower.
Both characters are good though, I don't think either of them are "bad" like so many people seem to say.
What I will say is that Ness is a very good solid character who is capable of winning most matchups, despite his glaring issues with being grab-released. He can avoid grabs and has fantastic spacing with f-air, combined with amazing kill power from b-air, u-air, and OH YEAH, BACK THROW LOLOLOLOL.
As Edreeses pointed out, his F-Throw is a set knock back, which makes it great at low percents since it flings them pretty far. It can setup great mind games to go for early d-air or PKT2 kills, or at the very least a good opportunity to rack damage from ledge guarding.
His recovery is bad. PK-Thunder disappearing when it hits someone is terrible for him. Anyone can just jump over him and eat the damage from the PKT ball, causing it to disappear and Ness to fall helplessly to his doom. Additionally, his flying distance is shortened if he connects with anyone on PKT2, which is another part of his recovery that is just really unfortunately terrible.
He's a very viable character who needs a secondary for a few select matchups, but can do surprisingly well on his own.
I will say, however, that I think Lucas is better than Ness. Lucas doesn't have a "real" grab, but the hitboxes on his aerials combined with his aerial momentum and psi-magnet/zap-jump makes him extremely difficult to predict or punish. He also has a better recovery and still maintains superb damage wracking and killpower.
Both characters are good though, I don't think either of them are "bad" like so many people seem to say.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Lucas definitely isn't better than Ness.
He doesn't have many disjoints, he is overall weaker with only 2 real kill moves (F-smash and D-smash, both can be reacted to). His recovery is about the same because even though the head of his PKT can't be stopped, it travels much slower so it is actually MUCH easier to get a hit in (I have been able to edgeguard Galeon many times. I rarely can edgeguard Shaky). Sure it goes farther, but characters can hit him away much easier and just grab the ledge which = dead lucas.
Ness, you mess up on his edgeguarding and you die. You die fast.
Both nairs are good, but Ness's is better since it can be used as a combo breaker and SH nair hits small characters (Unlike Lucas's) Ness's fair is obviously better. Ness's bair is obviously better. Ness's dair is obviously better. Ness's uair is tons better (Stronger and it is less DI-able).
Both PK Fire's have their uses. Ness's PKT is better for camping than Lucas's. Both neutral specials are useless. Lucas's magnet is better.
Lucas's Smash attacks are better. D-smash is significantly better and U-smash is much better for punishing than Ness's. Ness's F-smash does more damage than Lucas's, but Lucas's has more knockback and is faster.
Overall, since most of the match won't be spamming smash attacks, Ness is an overall better character. He is scarier and you have to worry about him on the ground, in the air, off the level, and across the level.
He doesn't have many disjoints, he is overall weaker with only 2 real kill moves (F-smash and D-smash, both can be reacted to). His recovery is about the same because even though the head of his PKT can't be stopped, it travels much slower so it is actually MUCH easier to get a hit in (I have been able to edgeguard Galeon many times. I rarely can edgeguard Shaky). Sure it goes farther, but characters can hit him away much easier and just grab the ledge which = dead lucas.
Ness, you mess up on his edgeguarding and you die. You die fast.
Both nairs are good, but Ness's is better since it can be used as a combo breaker and SH nair hits small characters (Unlike Lucas's) Ness's fair is obviously better. Ness's bair is obviously better. Ness's dair is obviously better. Ness's uair is tons better (Stronger and it is less DI-able).
Both PK Fire's have their uses. Ness's PKT is better for camping than Lucas's. Both neutral specials are useless. Lucas's magnet is better.
Lucas's Smash attacks are better. D-smash is significantly better and U-smash is much better for punishing than Ness's. Ness's F-smash does more damage than Lucas's, but Lucas's has more knockback and is faster.
Overall, since most of the match won't be spamming smash attacks, Ness is an overall better character. He is scarier and you have to worry about him on the ground, in the air, off the level, and across the level.
i dont think ness can ever be better than low-mid tier because of his strong counters (once any novelty ness has wears off)
i dont see how a ness can ever beat a DK, and Marth and MK are probably worse.
Before even going into the infinite, f.tilt and b.air beat his f.air, ness still has to put considerable damage on DK before killing, ness is light enough to get gimped by smash attacks (~100% d.smash), downB counters pivot PK fires, giant punch is too good, DK should be able to survive all edgeguard attempts, and is among the characters that can edgeguard ness.
Cargo Infinite Guide
grab, cargo(forward), release(6%), grab, repeat as desired..., release - d.smash (130% should more than guarantee a KO in all possible conditions)
the ness/lucas can DI away, may requiring DK to take a baby step forward before grabbing, of if somehow falls behind - there is ample time to react from any visual cue
Naturally, the oponent will always fall on the horizontal side of DK from which they were originally grabbed from. (so if you're on the left, them on right, you grab, cargo, turn around and walk left - they predisposed to fall on the right)
DK's initial pummel is pretty strong, and they'll be plenty opportunity to use it between resets. Use it to refresh all his moves.
what you gonna do ness? lol
i dont see how a ness can ever beat a DK, and Marth and MK are probably worse.
Before even going into the infinite, f.tilt and b.air beat his f.air, ness still has to put considerable damage on DK before killing, ness is light enough to get gimped by smash attacks (~100% d.smash), downB counters pivot PK fires, giant punch is too good, DK should be able to survive all edgeguard attempts, and is among the characters that can edgeguard ness.
Cargo Infinite Guide
grab, cargo(forward), release(6%), grab, repeat as desired..., release - d.smash (130% should more than guarantee a KO in all possible conditions)
the ness/lucas can DI away, may requiring DK to take a baby step forward before grabbing, of if somehow falls behind - there is ample time to react from any visual cue
Naturally, the oponent will always fall on the horizontal side of DK from which they were originally grabbed from. (so if you're on the left, them on right, you grab, cargo, turn around and walk left - they predisposed to fall on the right)
DK's initial pummel is pretty strong, and they'll be plenty opportunity to use it between resets. Use it to refresh all his moves.
what you gonna do ness? lol
Ness having good match ups with high/top tiers is a bit silly.
He seems to do okay against Falco,
maybe ice climbers, maybe pikachu, maybe lucario.
Characters in the tier above him have similar "okay match ups" splashed about.
He seems to do okay against Falco,
maybe ice climbers, maybe pikachu, maybe lucario.
Characters in the tier above him have similar "okay match ups" splashed about.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
According to Shaky, MK isn't that hard. Marth and DK are much harder. Seibrik has to go D3 on him because Shaky beats his MK.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
I think he should rise some spots, he's overall a really good character, hisrecovery totally sucks, falco can dair spike pkt2 with good timing xD if he can't make it to the stage with double jump he's prolly dead or will get loads of damage. Then, as DMG says, Ness is easily trapped in the stage, only stages like brinstar, halberd etc. give him some more choices to get out of there. He has pkthunder stall in the ledge but it's easily edgehogged and falling down and double jumping to the edge to wait for an opening is also very risky because of how slow ness' jump is.
The grab release tricks hurt him badly in some match-ups like marth and DK ( srsly release to dsmash, wtf xD) and then gives a guaranteed KO move for most of the cast if they land a grab.
Besides this problems, he's an overall solid character I'd say, better than sonic or sheik imo, and should stay around mid tier. He shouldn't be allowed in LT I guess ( although he's my main there T_T) even if there are some characters that beat him. ( Ike, who shouldn't be low either and C.Falcon which imo has an advantage over ness because of all the grab releases, easy gimps and survability he has.
The grab release tricks hurt him badly in some match-ups like marth and DK ( srsly release to dsmash, wtf xD) and then gives a guaranteed KO move for most of the cast if they land a grab.
Besides this problems, he's an overall solid character I'd say, better than sonic or sheik imo, and should stay around mid tier. He shouldn't be allowed in LT I guess ( although he's my main there T_T) even if there are some characters that beat him. ( Ike, who shouldn't be low either and C.Falcon which imo has an advantage over ness because of all the grab releases, easy gimps and survability he has.
Ness does pretty alright against MK, all things considered.
Having a dair that lasts forever and outprios all of his b moves, and will most likely trade/clash with all his aerials, plus a forward air that out ranges MK's aerials + a backthrow of death + a jump that naturally has him pushed out of grounded shuttle loop range...
What MK mainly has in the match up is grab release kill move, dtilt, and that whole 5 jumps giving him more leeway to bait.
Having a dair that lasts forever and outprios all of his b moves, and will most likely trade/clash with all his aerials, plus a forward air that out ranges MK's aerials + a backthrow of death + a jump that naturally has him pushed out of grounded shuttle loop range...
What MK mainly has in the match up is grab release kill move, dtilt, and that whole 5 jumps giving him more leeway to bait.
Ness doesn't do too shabby against MK and Snake IMO, although everyone and his mother does okay vs Snake at this point. The Ness boards have a topic where they compile tournament results for Ness mains and there are definitely more breakout performances than his tier placing suggests. I'm kind of curious as to what Crow's data makes of this, but that also depends on the extent to which Ankoku collected those results.
Snake destroys ness ;\
Maybe I just don't know the matchup well, but for a low tier he really does better than I'd expect.
What makes you say Snake destroys Ness then? Ness beats him in the air and is one of few characters who can reliably kill Snake early.
What makes you say Snake destroys Ness then? Ness beats him in the air and is one of few characters who can reliably kill Snake early.
reliably kill early?
back throw isn't early.
Ness' dair gets people below him, not above him (hurr durr), so I don't see how Snake is getting owned off stage to lose stocks. Ness' lack of aerial momentum doesn't make him a pro snake juggler either. However, he can generally at least get at least a back air somewhat reliably (as a trade off for snake avoiding uair)
Snake's grab is very high; he has more ability to shield grabbed ness' fair than most characters (No i'm not saying well spaced fair gets shield grabbed, jesus christ).
Utilt out of grab release.
Grab release to jab to oh, more damage (plus ness has terrible rolls, loldthrow).
Ness' rising fair, even with the disjoint, because of the nature of ness' jump (curves in before curving out) when considering Snake's height and where his nade will be make him prone to explosions. Every other move ness has is grenade countered too... Even though good ol pk fire can have hilarious results... maybe once or twice.
Oh yeah.. whilst ness' fair is long range and his jump is nice, it isn't "lagless".
Dash attack.
Also... Utilt also can beat out ness' fair...
back throw isn't early.
Ness' dair gets people below him, not above him (hurr durr), so I don't see how Snake is getting owned off stage to lose stocks. Ness' lack of aerial momentum doesn't make him a pro snake juggler either. However, he can generally at least get at least a back air somewhat reliably (as a trade off for snake avoiding uair)
Snake's grab is very high; he has more ability to shield grabbed ness' fair than most characters (No i'm not saying well spaced fair gets shield grabbed, jesus christ).
Utilt out of grab release.
Grab release to jab to oh, more damage (plus ness has terrible rolls, loldthrow).
Ness' rising fair, even with the disjoint, because of the nature of ness' jump (curves in before curving out) when considering Snake's height and where his nade will be make him prone to explosions. Every other move ness has is grenade countered too... Even though good ol pk fire can have hilarious results... maybe once or twice.
Oh yeah.. whilst ness' fair is long range and his jump is nice, it isn't "lagless".
Dash attack.
Also... Utilt also can beat out ness' fair...
Seibrik doesn't play that well versus Ness at all. I think MK beats Ness pretty badly tbh.
Shaya, can you name me other characters outside of S tier who can reliably kill Snake early and with what moves - at an earlier percentage than Ness's back throw? All ness needs a grab and he can kill snake at 150%. This is very reliable and much earlier than tooooons of characters.
gallax
Smash Hero
Zelda bair/fair all day!!!!!
Edit:
Gaw- fsmash/usmash/dsmash/9hammer
Olimars- purple smash
kirby- fsmash/hammer
dkong- smash/superpunch
fox -usmash
luigi- upb/fsmash
wolf- dsmash(sweetspot)
Pt- rocksmash/squirtle dthrow(not fatigued)/ivy usmash
Ike- uair/fsmash/usmash/bair/ftilt
yoshi- uair
falcon- knee
Reliable but not so useful:
falcon- falcon pawnch!!!
ganondorf- warlock punch!!!
Edit:
Gaw- fsmash/usmash/dsmash/9hammer
Olimars- purple smash
kirby- fsmash/hammer
dkong- smash/superpunch
fox -usmash
luigi- upb/fsmash
wolf- dsmash(sweetspot)
Pt- rocksmash/squirtle dthrow(not fatigued)/ivy usmash
Ike- uair/fsmash/usmash/bair/ftilt
yoshi- uair
falcon- knee
Reliable but not so useful:
falcon- falcon pawnch!!!
ganondorf- warlock punch!!!
Shaya: Wario gets grab released into tons of stuff as well and he's top tier. I don't think Ness is as good at avoiding grabs as he is, but grab release into uptilt seems like a minor aspect of the matchup as pretty much everything Snake does can kill anyway and if the Ness spaces well he shouldn't get grabbed in the first place. This might seem like a cop-out, but considering there's often a hitbox between you and the actual character it really is feasibile for him to stay clear of grabs for a long time, which is why I only really consider the infinites to death crippling. Snake has a better camping game, but I'm not arguing that Snake isn't the better character. I'm arguing Ness is a bigger threat for Snake than his low tier brethren and I refuse to believe Snake is a hard counter for him.
T-block
B2B TST
Squirtle's d-throw won't kill Snake until like... 180%, or 200+% if he's fatigued, and Ivysaur's u-smash can hardly be called reliable.
gallax
Smash Hero
Its reliable in that it WILL kill if hit. Talkin about ivy usmash.
T-block
B2B TST
lol you have some weird definition of reliable.
Warlock Punch reliable kill move then? @.@
Warlock Punch reliable kill move then? @.@
gallax
Smash Hero
Yessir. Reliable= if hit, it will kill. Ivys usmash can kill snake if you predict a b-reversal. Ive seen it happen many times. Or if u roll into someone then charge an usmash while they spotdodge. Seen it happen many times.
I do agree that im being a little political with my words but im just sayin, snake can be killed lol.
I do agree that im being a little political with my words but im just sayin, snake can be killed lol.
Reliable to me also encompasses reasonable to expect to hit with. 
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