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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #22: Sheik
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I refuse to say Sheik is not a man. Look at it!
Lucky me, I've taken to playing a lot of Sheik lately and really am working on getting it up to snuff. I think Sheik is still a little underrated and deserves to move up some, there's just not enough people utilizing Sheik to HIS maximum effectiveness. The character can be pretty one dimensional but luckily Sheik is capable of drawing a great deal of opponents into operating within the proper range to secure tilt locks and jab setups. Needles have a rather interesting hit box, really work over shields and can go quite a large amount of damage for how easy they are to hit with. Ftilt to Utilt and Ftilt locks to Usmash are absolutely amazing. Sheik can get about 50 free damage on Snake when he grenades out of a tilt lock, which is pretty nice to have (though killing is....another matter).
I find kill power to be the only thing holding Sheik back at this point. Players are forced to treat matchups much like Sonic mains do and just keep on racking damage until a kill opportunity presents itself, because just going for one usually ends up getting punished. It's not uncommon to see characters living past 180-200 against Sheik, which is not good in matchups against characters like Snake who will kill you at far less than that. Zelda can help make up for this, but we already know Zelda's issues with safely attacking as well, which can be just as bad at times. I know the Japanese tend to rank them as one character and have a much higher opinion of Zelda/Sheik than we do here, though I've always been curious as to why.
Lucky me, I've taken to playing a lot of Sheik lately and really am working on getting it up to snuff. I think Sheik is still a little underrated and deserves to move up some, there's just not enough people utilizing Sheik to HIS maximum effectiveness. The character can be pretty one dimensional but luckily Sheik is capable of drawing a great deal of opponents into operating within the proper range to secure tilt locks and jab setups. Needles have a rather interesting hit box, really work over shields and can go quite a large amount of damage for how easy they are to hit with. Ftilt to Utilt and Ftilt locks to Usmash are absolutely amazing. Sheik can get about 50 free damage on Snake when he grenades out of a tilt lock, which is pretty nice to have (though killing is....another matter).
I find kill power to be the only thing holding Sheik back at this point. Players are forced to treat matchups much like Sonic mains do and just keep on racking damage until a kill opportunity presents itself, because just going for one usually ends up getting punished. It's not uncommon to see characters living past 180-200 against Sheik, which is not good in matchups against characters like Snake who will kill you at far less than that. Zelda can help make up for this, but we already know Zelda's issues with safely attacking as well, which can be just as bad at times. I know the Japanese tend to rank them as one character and have a much higher opinion of Zelda/Sheik than we do here, though I've always been curious as to why.
Sheik has a lot of really favorable matchups even when it comes to top/high tiers, but a lot of really disfavorable ones too (IC, Diddy, Marth) She's a decent character and used excellent as a counterpick. She's also way better with combined use of Zelda to kill. Lots of good tilt combos and damage rackers, but w/o switching to Zelda even tougher time killing than characters like Sonic. I prefer to rank Zelda and Sheik as one character too because for all practical purposes that's what the matchup is when facing them, anyone who bans them from pressing down b is a scrub. I say we got her at a good spot already on the last list.
Also, Sheik is female because Zelda is female and Sheik is just Zelda under disguise. It's just a really good disguise. It's like saying a crossdresser switches gender, when they don't. They are just good at making a costume.
Also, Sheik is female because Zelda is female and Sheik is just Zelda under disguise. It's just a really good disguise. It's like saying a crossdresser switches gender, when they don't. They are just good at making a costume.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
It's a magical guise, not a costume, therefore gender change is easily possible, considering eye color also changes and "breast size" is dramatically decreased and outlined as male pectorals as clearly indicated in the above artwork. Also, it is the official opinion of Nintendo that the disguise changes Zelda's body magically (lol don't ask why I know this, but I read it in Nintendo Power many years ago). Also, Sheik has only ever been referred to in-game as a man. >.>
Also, I agree that Zelda may be absolutely necessary to getting kills, but I've seen whole matches turned around when Zelda just got destroyed by the other player who was losing, and her recovery gimped, giving the losing player the sudden lead. Are there any good Sheik mains who have been able to make Zelda work for them well in this capacity? I think the worst thing about Zelda/Sheik is that the game doesn't automatically load both characters when you start a match, making the transformation take so long while it loads the other character each time. Poor planning.
Also, I agree that Zelda may be absolutely necessary to getting kills, but I've seen whole matches turned around when Zelda just got destroyed by the other player who was losing, and her recovery gimped, giving the losing player the sudden lead. Are there any good Sheik mains who have been able to make Zelda work for them well in this capacity? I think the worst thing about Zelda/Sheik is that the game doesn't automatically load both characters when you start a match, making the transformation take so long while it loads the other character each time. Poor planning.
T-block
B2B TST
I also feel she's got a lot more potential than she's showing at the moment. Lightning fast moves and quick movement make her one of the best punishers in the game imo. The fact that she doesn't get ***** by MK is pretty cool too.
Killing is clearly her biggest issue, and it doesn't help that she's really light herself with a recovery that isn't the best at getting back onto the stage safely. It would have been really cool if Zelda weren't complete garbage - this character might be a lot better. As it stands, it looks like most Sheik players don't consider the increased kill power worth the cost of having to play Zelda, and understandably so.
Killing is clearly her biggest issue, and it doesn't help that she's really light herself with a recovery that isn't the best at getting back onto the stage safely. It would have been really cool if Zelda weren't complete garbage - this character might be a lot better. As it stands, it looks like most Sheik players don't consider the increased kill power worth the cost of having to play Zelda, and understandably so.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
I think we could rank sheik/zelda as one character as well.
Her worst match-up is prolly Ice Climbers althought I've heard zelda does kinda well vs them, so maybe she can work it out changing.
What the real inferno says about loading time is really true and it changes between wiis. Edu, a sheik/zelda player from spain, is really sensitive to lag and sometimes has even quit the game in tourneys because he wasn't allowed to play in other wiis. There are wiis ( I saw a lot at BBI, where he did that) that don't work very well and it could take like a minute to load the match from the stage selection screen ( crazy, I even had to wait 2 mins for the game to start in one tourney match). This affects sheik's transformation to insane's amount of times while other things like usb loaders make it faster. There's also pausing so the game loads the other char faster, all of this because of not loading both chars at the start of the match lol. I've seen him kill someone from the top, transform and still get a full charged fsmash, so stupid xD.
Anyways, changing to zelda is not always a good idea, one can get destroyed in a matter of seconds in some match-ups if the other player knows how to camp zelda properly. in this cases its better to try to get a nair at 180% or something xD.
Besides this his recovery is pretty bad, upb isn't as good as in melee where it was directed way better and this makes sheik's recovery pretty predictable. It's usally grab the ledge and punish upb .
I also see Marth as one of her worst match-ups, outranges her in everything, gimps her easily, escapes of mosts combos with Upb / not much smash DI to fair and juggles her to death.
I feel Sheik should stay in mid tiers, I see her a better character than sonic, bowser and characters of the like.
Her worst match-up is prolly Ice Climbers althought I've heard zelda does kinda well vs them, so maybe she can work it out changing.
What the real inferno says about loading time is really true and it changes between wiis. Edu, a sheik/zelda player from spain, is really sensitive to lag and sometimes has even quit the game in tourneys because he wasn't allowed to play in other wiis. There are wiis ( I saw a lot at BBI, where he did that) that don't work very well and it could take like a minute to load the match from the stage selection screen ( crazy, I even had to wait 2 mins for the game to start in one tourney match). This affects sheik's transformation to insane's amount of times while other things like usb loaders make it faster. There's also pausing so the game loads the other char faster, all of this because of not loading both chars at the start of the match lol. I've seen him kill someone from the top, transform and still get a full charged fsmash, so stupid xD.
Anyways, changing to zelda is not always a good idea, one can get destroyed in a matter of seconds in some match-ups if the other player knows how to camp zelda properly. in this cases its better to try to get a nair at 180% or something xD.
Besides this his recovery is pretty bad, upb isn't as good as in melee where it was directed way better and this makes sheik's recovery pretty predictable. It's usally grab the ledge and punish upb .
I also see Marth as one of her worst match-ups, outranges her in everything, gimps her easily, escapes of mosts combos with Upb / not much smash DI to fair and juggles her to death.
I feel Sheik should stay in mid tiers, I see her a better character than sonic, bowser and characters of the like.
While the Vanish is easier to predict due to its lack of ability to do things like sweetspot a ledge, it's got significantly less landing lag than the Melee version.
Sheik can be played in a few ways. One involves her ftilt and its capability to rack up damage quickly (around 15% each confirm, for ftilt ftilt aerial) along with proper decay allowing it to combo into usmash at KO percentages on any character in the game. While I'm constantly being told it's rather simple and just a matter of paying attention, I still find it tricky to accomplish this. :< However, allowing guaranteed combos for decent damage on each successful hit of a frame-5 attack and having a true setup into a KO is pretty good.
The other successful style I've seen is moving really fast and taking full advantage of her moveset's low cooldown and bair's decent range. Her fair can auto-cancel (I think... I haven't checked in a while, but there's a lagless landing timing regardless), allowing her to go right into jabs in a manner somewhat similar to Peach, and her jabs and tilts work together rather well. Playing this way tends to put more need to transform for the KO, though.
For some other minor silly things, Sheik crouches low enough to avoid a lot of common projectiles, including Falco's and Fox's lasers. Her crouch also avoids Snake's first and second jab hits as well as his maximum range grab. If you throw needles immediately after a full-hop, you can land laglessly - rather unfortunate that they added like half a second of landing lag to aerial needles. At lower percents, landing a fair leads right into a grab or a dash attack, and at higher percents, a weak nair can lead into a dash attack or even a running upsmash. Sheik's DACUS is the hardest to pull off timing-window-wise, but also covers an insane distance at a ridiculous speed, allowing for surprise attacks (not recommended) and grab release setups on characters you wouldn't expect.
Sheik has a lot of trouble with Ice Climbers, sorta. There are some people who will insist she has enough tricks and safe attacks to pull her through, but it's nowhere near the level of characters that actually do well against ICs.
Peach and Luigi are also troublesome matchups, as those are the two that involve long-lasting attacks that beat out just about anything Sheik does. It's very annoying. Improper decay will lead to a lot of your "combos" getting mashed out of by nair.
Marth is... not as difficult a matchup as Meta Knight, honestly. His tipper and maneuverability are nice, but his moveset also leaves him much more vulnerable after missing attacks or reads. Marth's recovery is also much safer to edgeguard against.
As for high-tier matchups that are not bad, Snake is often seen as a very even matchup. Though it's hell to get a KO on him early, and you die at 90% (before the hit) to utilt, Snake has tons of trouble making it back to the ground for more than a second against Sheik, and ends up taking somewhere in the range of the 50's in damage every time she lands a clean hit on Snake.
Wario is also a decent matchup, due to Sheik's quick movement, access to needles to break up persistent camping, and a grab release setup that guarantees a walking upsmash setup as long as there's no platform above them, which KOs at 100% before the hit on a standard-sized stage (ceiling height of most starters is the same) regardless of DI.
Sheik can be played in a few ways. One involves her ftilt and its capability to rack up damage quickly (around 15% each confirm, for ftilt ftilt aerial) along with proper decay allowing it to combo into usmash at KO percentages on any character in the game. While I'm constantly being told it's rather simple and just a matter of paying attention, I still find it tricky to accomplish this. :< However, allowing guaranteed combos for decent damage on each successful hit of a frame-5 attack and having a true setup into a KO is pretty good.
The other successful style I've seen is moving really fast and taking full advantage of her moveset's low cooldown and bair's decent range. Her fair can auto-cancel (I think... I haven't checked in a while, but there's a lagless landing timing regardless), allowing her to go right into jabs in a manner somewhat similar to Peach, and her jabs and tilts work together rather well. Playing this way tends to put more need to transform for the KO, though.
For some other minor silly things, Sheik crouches low enough to avoid a lot of common projectiles, including Falco's and Fox's lasers. Her crouch also avoids Snake's first and second jab hits as well as his maximum range grab. If you throw needles immediately after a full-hop, you can land laglessly - rather unfortunate that they added like half a second of landing lag to aerial needles. At lower percents, landing a fair leads right into a grab or a dash attack, and at higher percents, a weak nair can lead into a dash attack or even a running upsmash. Sheik's DACUS is the hardest to pull off timing-window-wise, but also covers an insane distance at a ridiculous speed, allowing for surprise attacks (not recommended) and grab release setups on characters you wouldn't expect.
Sheik has a lot of trouble with Ice Climbers, sorta. There are some people who will insist she has enough tricks and safe attacks to pull her through, but it's nowhere near the level of characters that actually do well against ICs.
Peach and Luigi are also troublesome matchups, as those are the two that involve long-lasting attacks that beat out just about anything Sheik does. It's very annoying. Improper decay will lead to a lot of your "combos" getting mashed out of by nair.
Marth is... not as difficult a matchup as Meta Knight, honestly. His tipper and maneuverability are nice, but his moveset also leaves him much more vulnerable after missing attacks or reads. Marth's recovery is also much safer to edgeguard against.
As for high-tier matchups that are not bad, Snake is often seen as a very even matchup. Though it's hell to get a KO on him early, and you die at 90% (before the hit) to utilt, Snake has tons of trouble making it back to the ground for more than a second against Sheik, and ends up taking somewhere in the range of the 50's in damage every time she lands a clean hit on Snake.
Wario is also a decent matchup, due to Sheik's quick movement, access to needles to break up persistent camping, and a grab release setup that guarantees a walking upsmash setup as long as there's no platform above them, which KOs at 100% before the hit on a standard-sized stage (ceiling height of most starters is the same) regardless of DI.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Sheik struggles to kill. She has up smash but it has to be used at the right percent and fresh to be able to kill early. It also has to be the first hit of the upsmash because the second hit does significantly less damage and knockback. Also the knockback of the second hit sends the target at a 45 degree angle as opposed to the first part sending the target straight up. Both hits combined do to a lot of damage though. Move decay is very important regarding killing with Sheik. In my opinion it's just as important to get the forward tilt to the right staleness as much as it is keeping the upsmash fresh.
Off stage Sheik is very vulnerable. Her air moves lose to characters like DDD, Marth etc. Once the side B comes out you can buffer the pull in to the ledge, but it doesn't come out right away and can be hit before. Also if Sheik can connect with the explosion part of her up b and then the reappearing wind it results in a lot of hit stun so it can be used to punish over zealous edge guards. Not the easiest thing to pull off though since the target has to be offstage and Sheik goes into special fall after.
Zelda vs ICs is pretty doable. I'd say it's even or at best slight advantage Zelda. F-Smash keeps them away and their hurt box makes them easier to sweet spot fair/bair. Once she gets grabbed though it's bad news because she's tall but light. Very easy to b-throw to f-throw. I just try to take it slow space F-smash and get Nana out of there.
Off stage Sheik is very vulnerable. Her air moves lose to characters like DDD, Marth etc. Once the side B comes out you can buffer the pull in to the ledge, but it doesn't come out right away and can be hit before. Also if Sheik can connect with the explosion part of her up b and then the reappearing wind it results in a lot of hit stun so it can be used to punish over zealous edge guards. Not the easiest thing to pull off though since the target has to be offstage and Sheik goes into special fall after.
Zelda vs ICs is pretty doable. I'd say it's even or at best slight advantage Zelda. F-Smash keeps them away and their hurt box makes them easier to sweet spot fair/bair. Once she gets grabbed though it's bad news because she's tall but light. Very easy to b-throw to f-throw. I just try to take it slow space F-smash and get Nana out of there.
LOL, that is so true it's funny. I even rely on this as a kill move against Sheik. if I notice her nair is stale enough, I will take the hit and respond with my own nair as a counter kill. The staleness definitely hurts her against characters like that.
Sheik is very underrated IMO. Good matchups on the high tiers (Falco especially notable), doesn't really get ***** by anyone, has grab release to DACUS kill on Metaknight that players mess up far too often due to the difficulty...
She doesn't really **** anyone though.
She doesn't really **** anyone though.
Yes she does.
The problem is that she's got that same "mess up a couple times and you're dead" deal as Fox.
The problem is that she's got that same "mess up a couple times and you're dead" deal as Fox.
hey Ankoku, how dare you say the marth match up is easier than MK.
Were all those lies about the power of the chain all just lies?
BLAST IT.
Were all those lies about the power of the chain all just lies?
BLAST IT.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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Sheik is better than I originally thought. I'm unsure what to say about her at the moment though... I've been surprised by several shiek mains I've seen videos of, and Judo (KY Sheik) actually almost beat me in a few games across a couple tournaments. I was ignorant of the matchup and he took full advantage of it and did some ridiculous stuff.
Sheik seems held back by the fine-tuned openings she has though. You really have to pay attention to her decay.
Sheik seems held back by the fine-tuned openings she has though. You really have to pay attention to her decay.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Are all you guys forgetting about the Pikachu match-up? That's probably one of her worst and Zelda definitely doesn't help.
One of the best Sheiks is Ed from Florida, as well as Billy from...either Alabama or Georgia. Ed beat Candy recently at CEO.
One of the best Sheiks is Ed from Florida, as well as Billy from...either Alabama or Georgia. Ed beat Candy recently at CEO.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I'm really unsure what to think about Sheik. On paper she seems really good, but I haven't seen many Sheiks doing extremely stellar in American tournaments.
That being said, we have a few Sheiks here in Europe who do surprisingly good usually, such as Biggad from Germany or Armada whenever he plays Brawl.
That being said, we have a few Sheiks here in Europe who do surprisingly good usually, such as Biggad from Germany or Armada whenever he plays Brawl.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Considering the fact that the Sheik is most likely wearing Leather armor over her chest piece to add to the guise of a male, you could be wrong.
Furthermore, the game will obviously refer to Sheik as a male because it would have spoiled the storyline to refer to Sheik as she.
This, one of the main issues with Zelda is that...while she can kill, she sucks overall and is risky to use. Hence even if Zelda is being used for her kill power, it can quickly result in things being reversed.
I do think Sheik is a decent mid tier character due to her good matchups against high/top tier characters, but when she has a problematic map it tends to become very problematic.
lack of killing options as mentioned against most of the cast becomes an incredible hindrance, and characters like Marth zone her all day.
What exactly is a problematic "map"?
No seriously, Marth can zone but he has to do it up-close and carefully, 'cause a falling fair on shield can be punished with dash attack and just throwing out aerials from out of range is punishable with needles. I mean, you can throw out up+Bs to catch the shield punishes, but too many of those and you'll just get read and hit hard for something that has you in the air for like two whole seconds.
No seriously, Marth can zone but he has to do it up-close and carefully, 'cause a falling fair on shield can be punished with dash attack and just throwing out aerials from out of range is punishable with needles. I mean, you can throw out up+Bs to catch the shield punishes, but too many of those and you'll just get read and hit hard for something that has you in the air for like two whole seconds.
Armada hasn't played Brawl in ages and his last couple of performances weren't that great.
Sheik lost her edge game and the knockback on her fair since the Melee days, effectively removing her ability to get low percentage kills or well... any kills at all. That came out more negatively than I intended, but her killing potential really did go from amazingly good to laughable. Offstage bairs coupled with prediction still seem solid, but other than that it's all about the upsmash. It's never good for a character to rely on a few moves to kill, because they get predictable and you kind of have to save them to avoid staling. When Brawl just came out switching to Zelda seemed like a decent idea, but Zelda got a lot worse since and inconsistent loading times are a huge problem. She still racks up the damage easily and is worth considering as a counterpick for some matchups, but the fact remains she has to outplay your opponent by a significant margin to win in most matchups.
Sheik lost her edge game and the knockback on her fair since the Melee days, effectively removing her ability to get low percentage kills or well... any kills at all. That came out more negatively than I intended, but her killing potential really did go from amazingly good to laughable. Offstage bairs coupled with prediction still seem solid, but other than that it's all about the upsmash. It's never good for a character to rely on a few moves to kill, because they get predictable and you kind of have to save them to avoid staling. When Brawl just came out switching to Zelda seemed like a decent idea, but Zelda got a lot worse since and inconsistent loading times are a huge problem. She still racks up the damage easily and is worth considering as a counterpick for some matchups, but the fact remains she has to outplay your opponent by a significant margin to win in most matchups.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Sheik doesn't really have a problematic map IIRC.
Maybe Rainbow cruise when facing someone like MK and Marth?
One should never ever ever spam the dolphin slash OOS. Becomes far too easy to read. yes Sheik can punish with needles if Marth makes an error, the thing is that he stands to gain more than he stands to lose.
Considering he also has more disjointed hitboxes, he still doesn't suffer much risk.
Its a hard matchup, but nothing she can't reasonably win.
Unlike Sonic who cant win anything.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
Same. Sometimes I think Sheik is underrated, othertimes I think she's placed pretty much where she should be. I think she could stand to move up, but it's really a hard call since there are so few Sheik mains.
In the midwest somewhat near me, we have Zash. He's extremely good with her whole arsenal, but he also knows precisely how and when he can use his f-tilt combos and is consistent with them. It's actually quite scary and he consistently places well / causes upsets. Not top of the pack or anything, but well above the norm.
She's definitely a capable character who makes a great pocket secondary for certain matchups, and I don't think she really has too many difficult matchups, though the few that she has may warrant a counterpick.
Using Zelda to aid in killing is generally a good thing, but it's somewhat character specific / situational. Overall, having the ability to transform into Zelda is at worst a net-neutral, since you aren't forced to, but you can do it whenever it benefits you.
Overall a solid lower-mid tier character who could move up but probably not by much if at all. I don't see a reason for her to go down.
gallax
Smash Hero
I love sheik. The only matchup that is really not in her favor is pikachu and snake. Ive seen really good meta-knights get taken down by a fl sheik(lessthanthree and ed aka scarylb5) as well as chaz losing to lessthanthree's sheik. Snake is so freaking heavy that its RIDICULOUS trying to kill him. Pikachu has a cg on her and can manipulate around her aerial mindgames cuz hes so small. Btw, i really dont like her ftilt. Drive me up the wall that a she can get like 30%+ because she lands a ftilt on someone.
And if people didn't know this, her bair auto-crossovers sheik when used properly. Jump and land on top of any character with a bair and sheik will land behind them and combo>ftilt or grab or jab or w/e!!!!!
And if people didn't know this, her bair auto-crossovers sheik when used properly. Jump and land on top of any character with a bair and sheik will land behind them and combo>ftilt or grab or jab or w/e!!!!!
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Whenever I play Shiek, I feel like it's such a good character until I make a mistake, then it's gay.
I'd definitely use this character a lot more if I could use the DACUS.
I'd definitely use this character a lot more if I could use the DACUS.
That sums up like... my personal feelings as well...
If only her bair was a better aerial zoner against shorter characters -..-
gallax
Smash Hero
Yes, this. Playing smaller chars can be so annoying sometimes. But the thing is changin to zelda helps kill them so much earlier, especially with having dtilt and SHAD'ing for a crossover.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Sheik's MUs with the high tier are interesting. Some people (including myself) thinks that Sheik has a close MU vs. MK. I feel Sheik has to play too perfect to really beat Snake, since she can't gimp him, and needs a lot of percent to kill with Usmash or Vanish. I agree with Ankoku that Marth isn't that bad.
I think Sheik beats Wario, probably Diddy, and goes even with Falco. I feel D3 is the same as Snake but to a lesser degree. I'm unsure about how Sheik stands up to Olimar, and I hear Pikachu is bad because of the Chaingrab. Considering all these reasonably good high tier match-ups, what are some of the reasons you guys think Sheik is viewed so poorly for? Also, what do you all think about these MUs?
I think Sheik beats Wario, probably Diddy, and goes even with Falco. I feel D3 is the same as Snake but to a lesser degree. I'm unsure about how Sheik stands up to Olimar, and I hear Pikachu is bad because of the Chaingrab. Considering all these reasonably good high tier match-ups, what are some of the reasons you guys think Sheik is viewed so poorly for? Also, what do you all think about these MUs?
Tournament representation maybe.
Sheik indeed has good matchups against some high tiers. I heard she gets destroyed by Ice Climbers though, and doesn't counter important characters besides Fox.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Pika vs Sheik is just as bad as Pika vs Falco. The CG is to about the same %, and Sheik has a really punishable recovery that Pika can just edgeguard easily. Not sure if Pikachu can duck under needles, but they are easily shieldable. Yeah...its just bad. Pikachu is too small to hit with Rising bairs I think. Don't know much about this character. Every time I've played Ed he goes straight up Zelda...and that isn't a good MU for Zelda so I can only assume Sheik is worse.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Okay. Let's talk about Sheik vs. Snake a bit more. A popular strategy is to time out Snake. Sheik is good at consistently punishing, good at juggling, and good at staying safe if she has platforms to navigate. Snake is mediocre at approaching. Do you think Sheik might win this MU if the player attempts to time out the Snake?
Sheik, like a lot of characters, can destroy snake given the opportunity to.
She can wrack up a crap ton of damage from juggling reads, etc etc.
and once she has a good lead, either in percent or stock she can effectively manoeuvre herself quite a bit to avoid snake's stuff.
It's even at best. Snake only has to hit sheik with about 4 ftilts and a dthrow each stock to kill her. She doesn't have the disjoints to safely avoid grenades with near perfection (though she can avoid them quite well either way)... but sheik can do a lot of damage to that guy due to needles, juggles, ftilt still does really well against him, back air hits him quite well (god bless him being tall) etc etc.
Sheik theoretically does well against high tiers over all... but like no better than how sonic theoretically does, or fox.
She can wrack up a crap ton of damage from juggling reads, etc etc.
and once she has a good lead, either in percent or stock she can effectively manoeuvre herself quite a bit to avoid snake's stuff.
It's even at best. Snake only has to hit sheik with about 4 ftilts and a dthrow each stock to kill her. She doesn't have the disjoints to safely avoid grenades with near perfection (though she can avoid them quite well either way)... but sheik can do a lot of damage to that guy due to needles, juggles, ftilt still does really well against him, back air hits him quite well (god bless him being tall) etc etc.
Sheik theoretically does well against high tiers over all... but like no better than how sonic theoretically does, or fox.
I think outcamping Snake to go to time is difficult in general, considering his nades, damage output and kill potential. Sheik's offensive game isn't lacking against him either, but after early (pretty much guaranteed) damage racking she might be better off playing defense and build damage up further with needles and well-spaced aerials (hard as long as Snake stays grounded though), until she can go in for the kill. I took the question as more black and white than you might have intended it, but I think there are very few matchups where a mixture of offense and defense isn't better than one of the two.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Hmm. I could probably time a snake out on Japes or Weegee's pretty easily (never tired it, but might be able to on Distant Planet too. Seems logical, but I don't know how easy it would be to circle camp with her there). Maybe Rainbow Cruise. It's easy to time out Snake on Rainbow Cruise with a crap load of characters. But timing him out somewhere like Battlefield or Smashville? I probably couldn't do it with Sheik there. She has worse matchup though than Snake, it's just getting the kill that's crazy hard. You basically are forced to lure him into making a mistake. I think any matchup that hinges entirely on the opponent making mistakes for you to win, isn't a good one. I believe she could easily camp him out on some CPs, but winning a set with it doesn't seem viable. Without an LGL, she could theoretically camp the edge all day, but she doesn't have perfect planking and would be vulnerable to a multitude of things from Snake, from his explosives to his arials. She'd have to camp tether then and hope to lure him off stage, because once she's at the ledge, he has a zone she has to get through that looks pretty vicious to get back on. I'd be scared as hell to eat a Snake Uair, Nair, or Utilt for making the wrong choice.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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You don't think Sheik can avoid a kill move from Snake on Battlefield with a stock lead and high percent?
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
She probably could. If she was ever going to have that big of a lead. Which she isn't (let's be honest, if you have that big of a lead on Snake as Sheik, you probably could have already won this match). Also, jumping around feels pretty great until there are explosives on most of the platforms, and Snake is mortar sliding under you every time you try to land. Gets a little hard to keep avoiding that after a while. I've tried this before with some of the faster characters and it's not as easy as it sounds on paper to avoid damage from Snake, since even though he doesn't move as quickly, all of his projectiles are all over the **** place like trash.
Sheik's needles are really great at stopping Snake's usual grenade camping game. The usual strategy I go for in the matchup is throwing needles until they realize they can't outcamp me (and with good mixed timing, blowing up the grenades that Snake pulls), then scoring setups for decent-to-good damage.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
You know, I've never met a Snake that actually likes throwing grenades at things that blow them up though. I mean, why on earth would anyone do that? I'm kind of a pessimist about this kind of thing if you can't tell.
The trick isn't to hit them out of the air, but rather to hit Snake as he pulls a grenade, and bank on the chance of dropping the grenade from getting hit and chain-reacting on another needle.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Yeah I get that. But, knowing Sheik. Why would I pull a grenade? It's exactly like pulling one on ROB, since laser passes through shields. You'd have to want to grenade yourself for no reason to do that, or just not know the matchup at all.
gallax
Smash Hero
If the snake stands far enough away the needles arent effective. The snake has to be really bad at camping or not paying attention to get hit by needles if hes standing and pulling nades from a distance. The other time needles are good is when a snake b-reversals away from sheik. If you throw needles before he lands and puts up his shield the needles will hit and doo good damage. And plus they are gonna blow the nade up then.
And snake CAN outcamp sheik.
And snake CAN outcamp sheik.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I can't imagine Sheik being close vs. MK.
gallax
Smash Hero
The best thing mk has against sheik is edgeguarding. Thats where he wins. Its a close fight when on the stage.