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US OOS Experimentation

Weruop

Weruop

Smash Ace
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Sections:

1 - Up Smashing THROUGH opponents moves
This section has to do with US-ing OoS after the first part of an opponents multi-hit/long-duration move hits ur shield. An example of this is Up Smashing OoS immediately after the first part of a descending Pikachus Fair hits your shield. THIS SECTION HAS TO DO WITH 'PRIORITY' (whats the correct term? lol)

2 - Up Smashing BETWEEN opponents moves
This section has to do with US-ing OoS after an opponents move hits ur shield and finishes. An example of this is Up Smashing OoS immediately after a descending Pikachus Fair hits the ground after having hit your shield.THIS SECTION HAS TO DO WITH HOW FAST UP SMASH COMES VS HOW FAST THE OPPONENTS NEXT MOVE COMES OUT.

Key:
***** Level of importance imo, on a scale of 1-5 is placed before the '-' mark
***** "-" = tested.
***** "--" = needs to be tested

IF YOU GIVE ME information, please tell me if you are talking about section 1 or section 2. (Before the period at the end of the sentence, you can just insert "(S1)" or "(S2)")

Firstly, here is some frame data on different OutofShield options:
F-air OoS: Hits on frame ...........8..................... if you Fair RIGHT after you jump
Up Smash OoS: Hits on frame ......9,10,11,or 12, depending on how quickly you input the upsmash after the jump
Shield Grab: Hits on frame ..................11.........


<<<<<Section 1: Up Smashing THROUGH opponents moves>>>>>​

METAKNIGHT
2-You cannot US OoS with any pikmin during tornado


DIDDY KONG
3-When Diddy Kong side-bs and then does the kick, you can not US OoS IMMEDIATELY with any pikmin OTHER THAN the yellow.
--Need to test if its possible to charge US OoS vs this move
2-You can US OoS with any pikmin AS Diddy's Dash attack is finishing
2-You can US OoS with any pikmin AS Diddy's F-smash is finishing


WARIO
1-You cannot US OoS during Warios Dair with any pikmin
--I need to test Nair still
--I need to test his side-b still

ICECLIMBERS
2-You cannot US OoS during ICs side-b with any pikmin(! I will be need to retest this !)

PIKACHU
2-You cannot US OoS during Pikachu's fair unless you use a yellow pikmin and it sweetspots (if pikachu is descending as he's fairing, then the sweetspot is pretty easy to hit with)


LUIGI
3-If Luigi is close enough to you during his cyclone, you can US OoS during it with any pikmin but white pikmin
3-You can US OoS Luigis Nair with red and yellow pikmin if it sweet spots (It is icnredibly difficult to sweetspot it unless u wait for the nair to hit ur shield first, and if Luigi is descending.)

PEACH
4-If Peach is up high enough as she is Dairing ur shield, you can US OoS with a yellow pikmin

FOX
2-It is possible to US OoS against the Dair, but it is inconsistent. It'd be best to just wait for him to land and then do the US.


<<<<<Section 2: Up Smashing BETWEEN opponents moves>>>>>​

METAKNIGHT
4-Usmash OoS to beat MK's dair camping
--We need to test US OoS against MKs dtilts

SNAKE
4-We can usmash OoS between jab1 and jab2 of Snake
4-We can also usmash oos in between ftilt1 to ftilt1
4-We can usmash oos in between ftilt1 to ftilt2.


MARTH
--US OoS may work against marth's shdfair
--US OoS may work against his dtilt spamming

PIKACHU
3-You can always US OoS after a nairing Pikachu lands (if in range)

MR. GAME AND WATCH
--Need to do Dair spacing testing


LUIGI
4-You can US OoS after Luigi's Fair/Bair/Dair hits your shield
4-You can US OoS a landing, Nairing Luigi

Id also like to do some testing sometime to find out which moves Yellow/Red F smash beat. If you could help me out on wifi with this, let me know :)

Self Note: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954
 
Noa.

Noa.

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Can we put other findings into the OP?

Hilt said that we can usmash OoS between jab1 and jab2 of Snake. We can also usmash oos in between ftilt1 to ftilt1, and after ftilt1 to ftilt2.

Usmash OoS to beat MK's dair camping. Usmash ooS may also work against dtilt spam.

Usmash OoS may work against marth's shdfair. The same against his dtilt spamming.

These are the ones I just thought up of what usmash oos may beat.
 
Weruop

Weruop

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ya ill update it.

hmm actually idk. now that i think about, this thread was sort of started to see what moves up smash goes through.
hmmmm maybe ill split it into 2 sections..
 
-Vocal-

-Vocal-

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Draconoa44 said:
Can we put other findings into the OP?

Hilt said that we can usmash OoS between jab1 and jab2 of Snake. We can also usmash oos in between ftilt1 to ftilt1, and after ftilt1 to ftilt2.

Usmash OoS to beat MK's dair camping. Usmash ooS may also work against dtilt spam.

Usmash OoS may work against marth's shdfair. The same against his dtilt spamming.

These are the ones I just thought up of what usmash oos may beat.
Click to expand...
He's right about the Marth dtilt spam, I saw Brood do it.

I'm glad someone got the thread up; now we just need results :) Eventually it'd be nice to have information on everyone (lol Ganondorf, sure)
 
DanGR

DanGR

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There's no need to test every single move.

There's a distinct pattern.


Just list the different types of moves and what works and what doesn't.
 
Weruop

Weruop

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DanGR said:
There's no need to test every single move.

There's a distinct pattern.


Just list the different types of moves and what works and what doesn't.
Click to expand...
Well there are some similarities in some moves but others are different. For example, you would think that Luigi's Sideb and ICs Sideb would be similar, but u can US OoS vs Luigi if hes near, but uc ant against ICs at all.
Then u have some moves which US OoS can only go through using certain pikmin. etc
i was kind of thinking what u were at first but it is sort of complicated

the 2nd section atleast shouldnt 'seem' pattern-like, since its more about timing and frame data
 
DanGR

DanGR

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Luigi's side-b isn't multihit and has a lot of cooldown.
IC's side-b IS multihit and has a moderately low amount of cooldown.
They're totally different.

By categories I meant multihit or not, the different levels of disjointedness on attacks (there are different levels), transcendent priority or not, ground attack, aerial attack, the different types of projectiles, all the different angles of attacks, all of these relative to the different pikmins' upsmash hitboxes, the pikmins' weight, property, hurtboxes...

All of these categories (and likely some more that I missed) relative to combinations of all of the above.


They have their own distinct properties.

It'd take less time and you'd learn a lot more by doing it this way, imo. It's like learning Spanish by looking at the grammatical formulas rather than memorizing every little thing.
 
-Vocal-

-Vocal-

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DanGR said:
Luigi's side-b isn't multihit and has a lot of cooldown.
IC's side-b IS multihit and has a moderately low amount of cooldown.
They're totally different.

By categories I meant multihit or not, the different levels of disjointedness on attacks (there are different levels), transcendent priority or not, ground attack, aerial attack, the different types of projectiles, all the different angles of attacks, all of these relative to the different pikmins' upsmash hitboxes, the pikmins' weight, property, hurtboxes...

All of these categories (and likely some more that I missed) relative to combinations of all of the above.


They have their own distinct properties.

It'd take less time and you'd learn a lot more by doing it this way, imo. It's like learning Spanish by looking at the grammatical formulas rather than memorizing every little thing.
Click to expand...
Don't forget sex kicks, and damage output, and the point at which a move becomes usoosable if it's damage output changes, and individual character's followup options.

I think this thread will still be a useful reference on not only what moves can be usoosed but also how to usoos them and whether or not it's always safe to usoos them.
 
Noa.

Noa.

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Also I think that there is too much variation with different moves to effectively clump them together.

Obviously we're also not going to list the obvious things that can be punished, like Marth's fmsash or Peach's dsmash.
 
Weruop

Weruop

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i can't really think of any more things to test for section 1 other than the things in it with two dashes

however, i think that section 2 can have quite a lot of things in the near future

tonight ill also prolly update this this thread with the frame data of US OoS (US) compared to shield grab and fair OoS

ALSO, has any1 else ever landed an upair OoS on a grounded opponent using a yelloww pikmin?xD i swear ive done this before lol.
 
DanGR

DanGR

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Weruop said:
ALSO, has any1 else ever landed an upair OoS on a grounded opponent using a yelloww pikmin?xD i swear ive done this before lol.
Click to expand...
I've fallen off stage to avoid an attack and punish an opponent with an upair as he landed on the edge of the stage. It gives you the option to use a lagless upb as you land back on stage (while they're in the air still), and basically net you a free upb, or grab/fsmash/etc. if they airdodge.

Can't say I've ever jumped up to upair a grounded opponent in any other situation, though. Does that even work? lol
 
-Vocal-

-Vocal-

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Weruop said:
Vocal ur post is confusing
DanGR i dont understand the situation u explained >.<
thx echo
Click to expand...
Well shield stun is usually correlated with the amount of damage a move does. Higher damage output = longer shield stun (not always, but usually). Lucario's Aura, of course, makes him more powerful as time goes by, so I wonder if we are able to usoos his jab at lower percents but not higher ones. It could use looking into
 
*_Echo_*

*_Echo_*

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u can also usmashoos lucarios fair and dair and dtilt and ftilt and uptilt, but they have to be in range of course. U can pretty much use usmashoos on any of lucas attacks and it should hit him lol but those are the ones iv acctuly tested and done. And i tested theses at low and high % on luca since i had to keep hitting him with upsmash and it worked everytime he was in range
 
Weruop

Weruop

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Why did u test those? they seem kinda of obvious unless u were seeing if the aura fter the attack would beat out the pikmin or something..
 
*_Echo_*

*_Echo_*

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Weruop said:
Why did u test those? they seem kinda of obvious unless u were seeing if the aura fter the attack would beat out the pikmin or something..
Click to expand...
i originaly just wanted to test against lucas jabs and then i just said screw it lets test a few other moves just to make absoulutely sure that'll work
 
Tin Man

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For MK's Dtilts, I believe if they are perfectly spaced, we can't do anything to him. Otherwise yes u probably can Usoos him. How many frames are there between the 1st hitbox of Snake's jab and the 2nd hitbox (ASAP) of Snake's jab (Hilt, for u :p)?

The purpose would be to use this frame data as a basis for several moves in the game. If we can get it down to the frames where we know which moves it is physically impossible to Usoos, then we can move on a lot faster from there (but that also requires taking moves that push the shield far enough away (like Ganon's or Falcon's Pawnch), if they can space the attacks far enough that they are safe on shield (MK Dtilts (conceptually they seem unpublishable if spaced, did not actually test)), etc). Of course this would all require some intense reaction time :laugh:, thank Sakurai for hit lag lol, makes life a lil easier despite the epic fail that is tripping
 
Weruop

Weruop

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Tin Man said:
For MK's Dtilts, I believe if they are perfectly spaced, we can't do anything to him. Otherwise yes u probably can Usoos him. How many frames are there between the 1st hitbox of Snake's jab and the 2nd hitbox (ASAP) of Snake's jab (Hilt, for u :p)?

The purpose would be to use this frame data as a basis for several moves in the game. If we can get it down to the frames where we know which moves it is physically impossible to Usoos, then we can move on a lot faster from there (but that also requires taking moves that push the shield far enough away (like Ganon's or Falcon's Pawnch), if they can space the attacks far enough that they are safe on shield (MK Dtilts (conceptually they seem unpublishable if spaced, did not actually test)), etc). Of course this would all require some intense reaction time :laugh:, thank Sakurai for hit lag lol, makes life a lil easier despite the epic fail that is tripping
Click to expand...
I think we might be able to fair OOS MK dtilts. if he dtilts to shield though, idk if it will hit. would be good to test :).
 
Weruop

Weruop

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hilt and i tested things and those all seemed to be correct >.<. would u be able to test them urself (video footage would really help, so i could make sure we are viewing these the same way)?

also, which part of their write ups are u saying is incorrect?
 
DtJ Hilt

DtJ Hilt

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Yeah, I think testing them offline would be more accurate. I wouldn't be surprised if some things were wrong.
 
Pyronic_Star

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can't do vids sorry

but you can usoos diddy's dash atk as he finishes it, he can't stop it (you can do it the same way to his f-smash also)

you can do it to ices side b while they are still spinning and hitting your shield

and pika's fair and wigi's nair you have to usoos as they hit the ground and it works (the rest of wigi's aerials you usoos immediately after they hit your shield)
 
DtJ Hilt

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Most of what Weruop was testing was whether you can interrupt a move mid-attack, and didn't list moves that you could counter after the hitbox of the move ended. Which I think is also important.
 
Pyronic_Star

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then just ices and diddy ate wrong lolz (frame perfect you can interrupt the dash atk, its just easier as it finishes)

and add wigi's dair, bair, and fair to the list
 
Weruop

Weruop

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thanks PS :)
and hilt, the info for up smashing out of shield after a move IS in the original post. its section two lol. i just need more info for it. eventually it should be bigger than section 1.

ill update the OP right now, and in a few minutes add frame data for Fair OOS and shield grab

So PS, ur saying uc an only US OoS diddy DA and ICs side-b if its towards the very end of the move?
and for the second part of ur last post, r u reffering to section 2?

also, G&W dair and bair would be good to test :) maybe my friend hector can help me out with it tonight.
 
DtJ Hilt

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You can up smash both out of shield. Turtle is really easy, but you need to be close to the GW. Key is a bit trickier to time, but it works just as well. You can actually up smash between the first and second hit of the key, but like I said, it's tricky.
 
Weruop

Weruop

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k, thats what i was wonderin. and if they dair retreating and barely hit ur shield, if its possible to US OoS once he lands/ after the first hit.

er hold on. for ur post, which parts of it were u talking about section 1 with and which were section 2?
 
Pyronic_Star

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you can hit diddy's dash atk and ices side b while they are still doing the move its easy to do to ices and a very difficult timing for the diddy's dash atk... however due to the timing difficulties it better to just hit diddy as he finishes the dash atk because the timing is way easier

pika's fair and wigi's nair are section 2
 
-Vocal-

-Vocal-

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I just asked this elsewhere but it's more relevant to this thread: can we usoos DK's bair? I know he wouldn't be able to act faster than us, but I'm more questioning whether his hurtbox would still be in range by the time the Usmash came out; idk how quickly his foot retreats, and if it retreats far enough to be out of reach.
 
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