In depth guide to matchups.

Seagull Joe · Aug 23, 2010

I have played brawl for about 2 years now competitively. It will be 2 years in September. I've used Wolf for so long and throughout my experiences I have formed a gradual consensus on matchups pertaining to him. I can explain any matchup for the most part in detail other then a few I don't know.

I give you my current matchup opinions:

45-55

45-55

55-45

40-60

55-45

50-50

40-60

40-60 except on Fd, which is 35-65

40-60

50-50

55-45

50-50

53-47

55-45

60-40

55-45

60-40

45-55

50-50

50-50
:shiek: 45-55 (Ban Fd, platform hop and laser camp, easy)

55-45 (We **** charizard and ivysaur, but squirtle has advantage slightly)

70-30

55-45

65-35

55-45

80-20

60-40

70-30

70-30 (Just Usmash Oos wins this matchup)

60-40

70-30

80-20

Count of matchups:

80-20's: 2
70-30's: 4
65-35's: 1
60-40's: 5
55-45's: 11
53-47's: 1
50-50's: 5
45-55's: 4
40-60's: 4

No matchup is worst then 40-60 in my opinion. Wolf has a very even amount of matchups. He has an advantage on most of the cast I believe.

Deleted member · Aug 23, 2010

I pretty much agree with this list, other than Falco, which I don't have much experience against but have heard Luminoth say it isn't bad at all. 40-60?? Is it just the chaingrab?

Also, can you explain the Marth matchup? I fought a couple at a tourney this weekend, and I had a pretty rough time...

Seagull Joe · Aug 23, 2010

Auspher said:
I pretty much agree with this list, other than Falco, which I don't have much experience against but have heard Luminoth say it isn't bad at all. 40-60?? Is it just the chaingrab?

Also, can you explain the Marth matchup? I fought a couple at a tourney this weekend, and I had a pretty rough time...

Well for one Falco isn't just the Cg. He has immense priority usually, which is why I put it at that ratio. Cg to spike guarantees a kill without chinese DI. Though it's just from my experience that Falco is a pain. Most Wolf's will argue 45-55, but it's either 45-55 or 40-60. I'm just going with my opinion on the matchup.

My experience vs Falco's are Shugo, Lie, and Stroumbert.

Marth vs Wolf is a campfest. Wolf can camp Marth with lasers, but not the reverse. Bair Marth and combo him in the air. It also isn't difficult to gimp Marth offstage. Just edgeguard. Marth can Fthrow 3 times into a Dair or Fsmash. My training partner is a Marth (My gf), so I play this matchup often. I don't like versing Marth to be honest cause Fair is annoying, but I give her problems with Bair.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 23, 2010

I think that DDD is 65-35, Diddy Kong is 50-50, G%W is 45-45 and snake is 60-40. There are to many MUs that are even (or that give wolf a slight advantage) that shouldn't be. If they were, Wolf would be higher on the tier list.

Deleted member · Aug 23, 2010

SaveMeJebus said:
I think that DDD is 65-35, Diddy Kong is 45-55, G%W is 50-50 and snake is 60-40. There are to many MUs that are even (or that give wolf a slight advantage) that shouldn't be. If they were, Wolf would be higher on the tier list.

Why would Diddy have an advantage? Also, D3 really isn't that bad. Rising fair on his shield and he can't grab you, and he destroys him in the air.

Also, the tier list is dumb. We'll see when v5 comes out.

KRDsonic · Aug 23, 2010

Wolf vs. Diddy is easier than Dedede vs. Diddy IMO, and people say D3 vs. Diddy is even.

We got dem banana tricks.

Ishiey · Aug 23, 2010

Seagull Man said:
I have played brawl for about 2 years now competitively. It will be 2 years in September. I've used Wolf for so long and throughout my experiences I have formed a gradual consensus on matchups pertaining to him. I can explain any matchup for the most part in detail other then a few I don't know.

I give you my current matchup opinions:

45-55
45-55
55-45
40-60 IMO 45:55, at worst :x
55-45
50-50
40-60 Supposedly learning how to SDI stuff properly makes it a lot harder for Wario to lead into his CG so... idk, might be a bit closer to even.
40-60 except on Fd, which is 35-65 Are you taking the smallstep CG and ledge infinite into account? :x
40-60
50-50
55-45
60-40
50-50
53-47
55-45
55-45
60-40
55-45
60-40
45-55 Just curious about this, why Fox's advantage? IMO it's the other way around...
50-50 Only if the Luigi is amazing at powershielding lol. What makes you say it's even?
50-50
:shiek: 45-55 (Ban Fd, platform hop and laser camp, easy)
55-45 (We **** charizard and ivysaur, but squirtle has advantage slightly)
70-30 There is no way we beat Sonic this bad. IMO it's around 55:45, what would make it this lopsided?
60-40
65-35
55-45 IMO Lucas is worse off against Wolf than Ness, I'd switch the two.
55-45
80-20 Come on, that's a bit harsh xD But it's definitely at least 65:35, Yoshi's lack of a normal shield...
60-40
60-40
70-30 Not that bad :/ although it's probably no better than 60:40 for Samus lol
70-30 (Just Usmash Oos wins this matchup) I suck against Jigglypuff lmao, but her light frame makes it easier to SDI out of usmash... Idk, can you explain this one too? Not that I think it's in her favor lol, I just don't think it's that extreme I suppose (or just suck against Jigglypuff xD)
60-40
70-30
80-20 This and Link are also a bit exaggerated I feel... but I'm starting to think we just have different "definitions" for the numbers.

No matchup is worst then 40-60 in my opinion. Wolf has a very even amount of matchups. He has an advantage on most of the cast I believe. Agreed, more or less :3

Responses/personal opinions in "deep sky blue" ;D

Yeah I should get started with the new MU thread lol... Probably will have to wait until the end of the week :<

Turbo Ether · Aug 23, 2010

6:4 advantage on G&W? I'm curious.

Also, Seagull, I saw you take a few friendlies off of M2K at Apex. I like your playstyle, but i'm comin' for dat *** and contesting your title, son!

Seagull Joe · Aug 23, 2010

Turbo Ether said:
6:4 advantage on G&W? I'm curious.

Also, Seagull, I saw you take a few friendlies off of M2K at Apex. I like your playstyle, but i'm comin' for dat *** and contesting your title, son!

Gonna change that one for GaW to 55-45 cause I re-thought and wonder why I put that. And Ness should be 55-45. Fixed for accuracy.

Also, bring it

KRDsonic · Aug 23, 2010

Hmm, after reading what Ishy read, I agree with some of what he said. I know that Wolf vs. Ganon isn't 20-80. I also believe Wolf has the matchup against Luigi. That's my 2nd most played matchup with Wolf, and Wolf seems to wreck Luigi from my experiences. Been a while since I've played it though, but I seem to recall our Bair messing him up quite a bit, and Luigi is also fairly easy to spike if we force him to use Down B to recover.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 23, 2010

Auspher said:
Why would Diddy have an advantage? Also, D3 really isn't that bad. Rising fair on his shield and he can't grab you, and he destroys him in the air.

Also, the tier list is dumb. We'll see when v5 comes out.

I messed up. It's 45-55 G%W and 50-50 Diddy

Seagull Joe · Aug 24, 2010

KRDsonic said:
Hmm, after reading what Ishy read, I agree with some of what he said. I know that Wolf vs. Ganon isn't 20-80. I also believe Wolf has the matchup against Luigi. That's my 2nd most played matchup with Wolf, and Wolf seems to wreck Luigi from my experiences. Been a while since I've played it though, but I seem to recall our Bair messing him up quite a bit, and Luigi is also fairly easy to spike if we force him to use Down B to recover.

Luigi named?

castorpollux · Aug 24, 2010

why is wolf vs wolf 50/50?

i destroy wolfs

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 24, 2010

I would love an explanation on Sonic. Please, tell me everything [and I mean everything] about the Kirby match-up you know. These are the things I'd like to know the most. Thanks

KRDsonic · Aug 24, 2010

Seagull Man said:
Luigi named?

jS, of course. He's alted Luigi about as long as he's mained DK since DK mains need someone to fight Dededes. Unfortunately I haven't run into any other Luigis though.

Seagull Joe · Aug 24, 2010

castorpollux said:
why is wolf vs wolf 50/50?

i destroy wolfs

Barracudadrifter makes the matchup very lopsided for the other Wolf.

Gheb_01 said:
I would love an explanation on Sonic. Please, tell me everything [and I mean everything] about the Kirby match-up you know. These are the things I'd like to know the most. Thanks

Wolf beats Kirby on stage. Just don't go offstage. When you go offstage you get kirbycided. It's a very risky matchup when Kirby is at the edge or when he is over the edge. The exception is when you're under him. If you're under Kirby then he can't kirbycide you and you can proceed to Uair, Fair, or whatever you want. When Kirby does his little Cg thing, he can only get as far as Fthrow>Uair because if you buffer a jab (Done this a lot), then it will clank with Kirby's Utilt and will slowly force you out of distance of Kirby's Utilt>Bair. Don't challenge Kirby's Bair. Use many retreating Fairs. Fairs beat Kirby a lot.

Sonic just sucks. He is awful. He loses to a shield. Fairs obliterate Sonic heavily. Not to mention his only approach is spindashes, which lose to laser. He should die most of the time from Fairs. Because Sonic's will always end up in the air. Wolf's silly Nair even beats spindash LOL. Wolf is heavy, which is problematic for Sonic to killing. Sonic kills with Bair and Fsmash. His only alternative is gimping Wolf, which is also a problem if you know how to recover. Jumpshine also beats Sonic. He cannot beat JS camping with anything.

KRDsonic said:
jS, of course. He's alted Luigi about as long as he's mained DK since DK mains need someone to fight Dededes. Unfortunately I haven't run into any other Luigis though.

My Luigi experience is Boss, SheikSSBM, and this guy named Ganonballer . Luigi can use jab to force true combos sometimes because it has such weird properties. Luigi is a combo king. Luigi kills very early. Wolf Dthrow's can be tech'd. Boss techs every single Dthrow. I cannot gimp him that way.

I'm also surprised none of you have asked for why I said Mk vs Wolf is only 45-55. I gave Pulse an entire matchup synopsis on Skype for that lol.

tekkie · Aug 24, 2010

KRDsonic said:
Wolf vs. Diddy is easier than Dedede vs. Diddy IMO, and people say D3 vs. Diddy is even. We got dem banana tricks.

what banana tricks? dacit? anything else? the only stuff i ever hear about this matchup is that it's wolf's favor because he can kill diddy early

if he DI's like a *****

.

as always the "wolf wins almost everything except MK ddd and pikachu" thing blows my mind but i don't care that much

thegreatkazoo · Aug 24, 2010

Wow, Yoshi and Ganon are 4:1s?

Too good mah d00d. :rolleyes:

Sonic is also not that bad, and Sheik should be a 6:4 in Sheik's favor. High level Sheik wins this hands down.

Deleted member · Aug 24, 2010

I posted your matchup synopsis in the Wolf BBR character thread, Seagull. I am well aware of why you say 45-55, and I agree completely with it.

Seagull Joe · Aug 24, 2010

thegreatkazoo said:
Wow, Yoshi and Ganon are 4:1s?

Too good mah d00d.

Sonic is also not that bad, and Sheik should be a 6:4 in Sheik's favor. High level Sheik wins this hands down.

In my opinion Sonic is that bad. The Yoshi boards will actually argue the matchup is even worst for them. Just ask Yes!'s opinion of the Yoshi matchup LOL. Ganon loses to shine, edgeguard, being dthrow'd, and laser limits his every option ever.

I have versed high level Sheik (Tutu) at Apex less then three weeks ago. He barely won matches. The tilt lock is good, but without it, Sheik has nothing on Wolf. Sheik can't camp Wolf as hard as he can camp her. Wolf hopping platform to platform limits Sheik's odds of getting Wolf. The tilt lock also needs to be staled to even work at higher percents. Wolf can gimp Sheik, but the reverse is much harder. Sheik only kills with Usmash. Only Usmash...You can also DI out of the tilt lock (Though I forget which way). This matchup isn't like Falco, because Falco has huge priority on moves along with a Cg spike at low percents and annoying lasers. Sheik just has a tilt lock, which can't exactly start at 0. Just play smart. Stay in the air and on platforms. Reflect needle storms as well.

I remember at Apex and Xanadu that Xzax beat Neo a bunch with Wolf vs Sheik. He told me the matchup isn't that bad and I denied it. Now I believe it after experiencing it better myself.

Auspher said:
I posted your matchup synopsis in the Wolf BBR character thread, Seagull. I am well aware of why you say 45-55, and I agree completely with it.

Thank you Auspher.

KRDsonic · Aug 24, 2010

Sheik has more than just the tilt lock against Wolf (And from my experiences, it's hard to get close enough to Wolf to tilt lock him at the right percentage, so I usually don't bother with it). You also forget that Sheik can transform into Zelda for the kill, and she can use Up B as a kill move. Yeah, it sounds like it'd be very gimicky and wouldn't work, yet it does work a good deal of the time. Sheik has ways of setting people up to get hit by her Up B, be it needle edgeguard to vanish glide, or or predicting an air dodge. I haven't played this matchup offline enough to say how much that affects the matchup, but I just figured I'd throw it out there since you didn't mention a couple of Sheik's tricks and assumed Up Smash was her only kill move. And while gimping Wolf may not be the easiest thing, she does have options for killing Wolf when he's trying to recover. Needle edgeguard to Bair or something if you try to recover from low (Which Wolf probably shouldn't do), or follow where Wolf will land if he does a flash cancel and hit with either DACUS or Vanish. Not sure how much this would change anything, but back when I alted Sheik people who were used to fighting pro Sheiks tended to have trouble with mine simply because it was different.

Xzax Kasrani · Aug 24, 2010

people always thought i wasn't good with wolf but seagull believes everything i say XD

Ishiey · Aug 24, 2010

That's because you're just a smart player in general ;D

Xzax Kasrani · Aug 24, 2010

yeah but my wolf was legit D:

tekkie · Aug 24, 2010

so how about that diddy matchup? why do all of wolf's matchups involve no discussion from the other end?

Ishiey · Aug 24, 2010

xzax1337 said:
yeah but my wolf is legit D:

Fixed :3

tekkie said:
so how about that diddy matchup? why do all of wolf's matchups involve no discussion from the other end?

Because Diddy can't speak ****ing English

Yeah idk. I still need to work on getting the matchup thread up. Last time around we didn't do a good enough job of asking other boards to participate, so I'm definitely going to work on fixing that. Also, Wolf:Diddy (or more like any character vs Diddy) is a LOT better if you know how to handle items properly. What do you think Diddy has over Wolf?

Deleted member · Aug 24, 2010

Reflect his bananas, shine-spike his recovery. Not too much of a problem MU if you ask me.

castorpollux · Aug 24, 2010

hey tekkie, pick up diddy and learn how to play as him.
then switch back to wolf and things will be a lot easier

Also, SEAGULL describe the wolf vs wolf matchup for me plox

tekkie · Aug 24, 2010

castorpollux said:
hey tekkie, pick up diddy and learn how to play as him.
then switch back to wolf and things will be a lot easier

ive already done that. now what?

Xzax Kasrani · Aug 24, 2010

Match-Ups

40-60

40-60

45-55

40-60

45-55

40-60

30-70

35-65

55-45

45-55

50-50

45-55

40-60

55-45

50-50

45-55

50-50

45-55

50-50
:shiek: 45-55

55-45

70-30

65-35

60-40

55-45

60-50

60-40

70-30

60-40

55-45

60-40

70-30

my opinions

tekkie · Aug 24, 2010

xzax1337 said:
Match-Ups

50-50, maybe 45-55
35-65, maybe 40-60
35-65
50-50
50-50
50-50
55-45
50-50
50-50
50-50
60-40
60-40
60-40
65-35

the ones i would change in xzax's list

.AC. · Aug 24, 2010

kirby is 50:50 , i play mogx quite frequently and it doesn't seem to be worse than that.

Seagull Joe · Aug 25, 2010

xzax1337 said:
people always thought i wasn't good with wolf but seagull believes everything i say XD

I do not believe everything you say. I have listened to you about certain things like the Sheik matchup and decided to test what you said myself. Sure enough, I was inclined to agree with you after experiencing it.

castorpollux said:
hey tekkie, pick up diddy and learn how to play as him.
then switch back to wolf and things will be a lot easier

Also, SEAGULL describe the wolf vs wolf matchup for me plox

True combo with Bairs, Jabs, Fsmash's, and Shine gimping like crazy.

Also lots of TWC makes this matchup lopsided.

.AC. said:
kirby is 50:50 , i play mogx quite frequently and it doesn't seem to be worse than that.

The 50-50 matchups are still up for grabs in my opinion. In my opinion 55-45 and 50-50 and 45-55 are so close most of the time that the ratios don't mean much. I just have an opinion of characters having slight advantages/disadvantages.

Mogx is quite good too.

Gah777 · Aug 25, 2010

xzax1337 said:
60-50

wait, what?

KRDsonic · Aug 25, 2010

60-50 matchups mean they stole 10 from the venue. I knew Ikes were cheaters.

Ishiey · Aug 25, 2010

^ lmfao

I'm still waiting for the "In depth guide" part to all these numbers :3

Laem · Aug 25, 2010

^ word

regarding MU's, take xzax's list and then tekkies changes and you have my exact current opinion.
kudos to you tekkie!

tekkie · Aug 25, 2010

Seagull Man said:
True combo with Bairs, Jabs, Fsmash's, and Shine gimping like crazy.

Also lots of TWC makes this matchup lopsided.

sweet jesus if youve ever shine gimped diddy they fudged up baaaaaaaaaaaaaad. i agree with the combos and all but for every combo wolf can do diddy has much better options. also, wolf's throw animations are super long. i don't know why people don't take this into account. wolf with a banana versus diddy with a banana is already lopsided in diddy's favor. in addition, a good diddy will never die early from dsmash (DI up) or fsmash (DI through the second hit iirc) and usmash doesn't kill early enough.

Laem said:
regarding MU's, take xzax's list and then tekkies changes and you have my exact current opinion.
kudos to you tekkie!

woot

Seagull Joe · Aug 25, 2010

Ishieymoro said:
^ lmfao

I'm still waiting for the "In depth guide" part to all these numbers :3

I only do that when people ask me for characters. In depth per matchup when people ask me the matchup.

Laem said:
^ word

regarding MU's, take xzax's list and then tekkies changes and you have my exact current opinion.
kudos to you tekkie!

Wolf vs Peach 50-50 even? Wolf ***** Peach hard....

castorpollux · Aug 25, 2010

what's the best thing to do as wolf when you play against a wolf perfectly spacing his bair against your shield?

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