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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #29: Yoshi
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Valdens
Smash Ace
Top of low tierish.
Yoshi has so many little gimmicks but I feel like he falls just short of being able to use them as well as someone like Ike does.
EDIT: Blah, I really need to make longer posts, heh. After reconsidering everything posted so far, I think I'd agree with him being around or just barely above Ike.
Yoshi has so many little gimmicks but I feel like he falls just short of being able to use them as well as someone like Ike does.
EDIT: Blah, I really need to make longer posts, heh. After reconsidering everything posted so far, I think I'd agree with him being around or just barely above Ike.
I'm not too well versed on Yoshi. Out of curiosity, what is it that bogs him down so hard?
Even though I don't have too much information on him, is it the lack of a proper KO option?
I would harp on his approaching game, but because he has a decent projectile in the form of his UpB, I'd think that would only apply to characters who have superior projectiles to Yoshi's eggs. Otherwise, Yoshi doesn't need to approach when he can harass a character from long distances.
I know his grab game is pretty beastly because of how long his grab reaches out. I would think it would give Yoshi a very decent pressure-game for opponents who are airborne and forced to land. The air-release chain grab helps with this not because of the damage output (because it's just not that amazing), but because it eventually puts the opponent in a terrible position (off level) that begs (I think) for UpB harassment, potential gimps/spikes in the forms of dair and fair, and for those with shoddy recoveries, regrabs should Yoshi edge hog and react in time.
The only KO options I know that Yoshi has are his USmash, Fsmash, and uair. How is the range/power on those moves?
I seriously wish I knew more about this character. He seems to have a bit of potential considering his decent ground speed (which is complemented by his grab game), air speed, recovery, and decent projectile.
Even though I don't have too much information on him, is it the lack of a proper KO option?
I would harp on his approaching game, but because he has a decent projectile in the form of his UpB, I'd think that would only apply to characters who have superior projectiles to Yoshi's eggs. Otherwise, Yoshi doesn't need to approach when he can harass a character from long distances.
I know his grab game is pretty beastly because of how long his grab reaches out. I would think it would give Yoshi a very decent pressure-game for opponents who are airborne and forced to land. The air-release chain grab helps with this not because of the damage output (because it's just not that amazing), but because it eventually puts the opponent in a terrible position (off level) that begs (I think) for UpB harassment, potential gimps/spikes in the forms of dair and fair, and for those with shoddy recoveries, regrabs should Yoshi edge hog and react in time.
The only KO options I know that Yoshi has are his USmash, Fsmash, and uair. How is the range/power on those moves?
I seriously wish I knew more about this character. He seems to have a bit of potential considering his decent ground speed (which is complemented by his grab game), air speed, recovery, and decent projectile.
The only characters which force Yoshi to approach through projectiles are Falco, Fox and Pit. Yoshi's Egg Toss is one of the best projectiles in the game. It has very good range, explodes a little before disapearing and does like what 9% fresh? Not much characters really "force" him to approach.
There are the three you mentioned but Yoshi also has Down B, Neutral Air and Fair(spike) as decent KO moves. The three you mentioned before are pretty good as they all have good range and KO ability and if I'm not mistaken Yoshi's Usmash also has some invincibility frames.
Overall I wouldn't say he has a huge problem killing.
Yoshi's pretty decent. We probably have the best one here in FL (Poltergust) so we get pretty good experience versus the character. He does struggle in some matchups like Falco, Marth and Dedede but overall his top tier matchups are decent. He doesn't outright beat anyone there but he doesn't really get ***** by anyone either.
Probably mid tier material and easily better than Ike.
gallax
Smash Hero
I hope texas is ready to get a taste of FL. Polt moved to texas i hear. Yoshi can be amazing. He NOT low tier.
T-block
B2B TST
Underrated char... I get ***** by Yoshi all day (hi Firefly when you read this)
From what I've seen, Egg Toss is a projectile that's difficult to powershield consistently, so he can force approaches from a lot of characters, and then approaching Yoshi can be tricky since he has a safe ranged pivot grab, fast tilts, and incredible aerial mobility (highest air speed in the game) with that b-air. He's one of the characters with a frame 3 n-air, and that n-air is pretty powerful too. His air game really is quite good, especially with an aerial grab which can be DJC'd. I wouldn't really say he has trouble killing either, although it can be tough for him to land his KO moves sometimes. Most kills I see are from u-air, n-air, and the occasional down-b. He also has one of the best recoveries in the game now that Egg Toss gives him height (unless you footstool him ^_^), and he's surprisingly heavy, having the same launch resistance as Wario.
One of his biggest weaknesses is his shield and lack of OoS options. Just dropping his shield takes some ridiculous number of frames that I can't remember, and you can't jump out of his shield. His roll is also terrible, so spotdodge is easily his best option OoS, which can be exploited.
From what I've seen, Egg Toss is a projectile that's difficult to powershield consistently, so he can force approaches from a lot of characters, and then approaching Yoshi can be tricky since he has a safe ranged pivot grab, fast tilts, and incredible aerial mobility (highest air speed in the game) with that b-air. He's one of the characters with a frame 3 n-air, and that n-air is pretty powerful too. His air game really is quite good, especially with an aerial grab which can be DJC'd. I wouldn't really say he has trouble killing either, although it can be tough for him to land his KO moves sometimes. Most kills I see are from u-air, n-air, and the occasional down-b. He also has one of the best recoveries in the game now that Egg Toss gives him height (unless you footstool him ^_^), and he's surprisingly heavy, having the same launch resistance as Wario.
One of his biggest weaknesses is his shield and lack of OoS options. Just dropping his shield takes some ridiculous number of frames that I can't remember, and you can't jump out of his shield. His roll is also terrible, so spotdodge is easily his best option OoS, which can be exploited.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
Future has a pretty good Yoshi (he plays a lot of characters), so I have a decent amount of experience against him.
I agree with the statements listed here about Yoshi being under-rated. I think he's definitely a mid-tier character who deserves to move up from low tier. Egg Toss is an awesome projectile and his pivot grab is AWESOME. He has fantastic damage racking and can be surprisingly difficult to approach.
His kill power is actually quite good, but he seems to have a hard time landing some of them. He has decent pressure when going for a kill with Egg Toss to up-air though, or he can wait for them to on landing and go for a Smash.
Also yeah, he's surprisingly heavy and not even easy to gimp at all if the Yoshi knows how to recovery properly.
I agree with the statements listed here about Yoshi being under-rated. I think he's definitely a mid-tier character who deserves to move up from low tier. Egg Toss is an awesome projectile and his pivot grab is AWESOME. He has fantastic damage racking and can be surprisingly difficult to approach.
His kill power is actually quite good, but he seems to have a hard time landing some of them. He has decent pressure when going for a kill with Egg Toss to up-air though, or he can wait for them to on landing and go for a Smash.
Also yeah, he's surprisingly heavy and not even easy to gimp at all if the Yoshi knows how to recovery properly.
gallax
Smash Hero
If you get eaten and turned into an egg and DI out of the egg incorrectly it sets up for a perfect uair kill. Sometimes its best just to stay in the egg and get hit to avoid dying. Also, triple pivot>fsmash is the coolest kill move ive ever seen by a yoshi.
I think yoshis head has invincibility on the top part if im not mistaken which is great for him sometimes when trying to kill. Force an enemy to land in front of u and fsmash that fool. Also usmash beat tornado i think. Combine that with grab release on mk to usmash is AMAZING for yoshi in the mk matchup. Poltergust ***** mk's with his yoshi.
I think yoshis head has invincibility on the top part if im not mistaken which is great for him sometimes when trying to kill. Force an enemy to land in front of u and fsmash that fool. Also usmash beat tornado i think. Combine that with grab release on mk to usmash is AMAZING for yoshi in the mk matchup. Poltergust ***** mk's with his yoshi.
Crow!
Smash Lord
There are two main items which hold Yoshi back. The first is that optimal play with him is so technical that nobody I have seen even tries it. More on this later.
The second, easier to understand and evaluate, is the positively terrible shield. Watch high profile matches between more normal characters, and notice how much "run, shield, run, shield" is going on whenever a player doesn't want to be in the air. Yoshi's viable OoS options are drop shield (which is unusually slow) and spot dodge. Standing grab is so ridiculously slow he can't do anything at all to punish most attacks against his shield, and Yoshi cannot jump. Instead he just has to settle for merely getting out of the situation with no damage... hopefully.
What Yoshi has to compensate for this is, IMO, one of the best approaches in the game, against most characters anyway.
In the air, Yoshi is the fastest character, horizontally. For example, he can catch a banana he throws horizontally from the air before he lands. He has an aireal grab which is different from (not worse than) Wario's, and when combined with his double jump, Yoshi can instantly set his aireal momentum to whatever speed he wants in any direction (not just horizontally!) as he uses it. NAir has minimal lag, a long lasting hitbox, either kills or sets up combos / attack strings, and can just as easily be used when facing the other way instead of BAir, which also sets Yoshi in a good position if it lands and is long range and all that good stuff.
Also, double jump super armor is amazing. Some characters' aireal games become almost irrelevant against Yoshi, as double jump through >> NAir/UAir winds up beating so many of the attacks. It's also useful when approaching, as double jump >> NAir/DownB can punish a number of attacks.
On the ground, Yoshi is quite fast, though not the fastest. More importantly, though, he can wavedash (called "dragonic reverse" for whatever reason), giving him arguably the most agility of any character and lets him fake out / mix up the motion of his dashing approaches better than anyone else. Unfortunately, doing this is very technical and most Yoshis (myself included) don't actually use this huge advantage we have; messing it up results in a double jump FAir or something equally dumb. Someone getting comfortable with using DR as many times as is necessary in a match rather than as many times as the player feels he can actually do it would be a huge boost to Yoshi's game.
Continuing with the ground game, once Yoshi does choose to attack, dashing grab, while very punishable if missed, against most characters it beats anything other than spotdodge / roll with its extremely long range. If they do one of those actions, punishing with either pivot grab or a smash (USmash is easy if they spotdodge or roll backward, DSmash will deal ~30% damage if they spotdodge at low percent and you can DR, if they forward roll, punishing with a smash will require DR, or you can just BAir / Egg Lay.) Or you can short hop and suddenly switch them to needing to deal with your abnormally good aireal approach game. Or you can use one of the best spotdodges in the game and follow up with jabs or whatever.
Anyway, once you land a hit, Yoshi's got quite the combo machine going. Here's one of Slice's combo videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoEk4ndFF3g.
Even though it's a combo video, it mostly shows stuff that happens with Yoshi all the time. (FAir combos.. not so much, but they happen too.) Notice how ridiculously good a position Yoshi is in after landing almost any hit whatsoever at low or mid percents.
Yoshi's also quite good when set up defensively, but this is pretty common among Brawl characters. I think the goodness of Yoshi's pivot grab is well enough known already, so I won't go into detail there. A nice detail that isn't obvious is how useful Yoshi's contorting his body when setting up for a smash can be - a well spaced attack versus Yoshi can unexpectedly turn into a narrow miss with a ~15% price tag just because Yoshi decided to smash. He can stutter step pretty well, too, to enhance the effect.
More on Yoshi's technical nature. Check out this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266444
In terms of matchups, where Yoshi suffers is against characters with enough fast, safe, long range, disjoint attacks with which to simultaneously shut down his approach and to be able to combo Yoshi without double jump or NAir being relevant escape options - Marth, Lucario, Meta Knight, maybe Samus. Lucario's particularly bad because his moveset is set up in such a way as to make scoring KOs quite a pain for Yoshi specifically, and we all know what happens when you fail to score a KO on Lucario. The Meta Knight issue is sort of mitigated so long as Yoshi is on the counterpick - FD and Halberd help make the grab release chaingrab / USmash actually relevant, however, during the typical tug and pull of the battle, MK shuts Yoshi down hard.
Other high and mid tier characters are totally manageable for Yoshi, and with enough practice with his very relevant list of ATs, I think he could find himself alongside Peach, etc. Heck, I'd get to work on that myself if my dexterity weren't so bad... also, I still need to work a lot more on the more fundamental predicting / baiting / etc parts of the game. For now, his tournament results look like that of someone in E tier rather than in F tier.
And now for the usual chart.
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
The second, easier to understand and evaluate, is the positively terrible shield. Watch high profile matches between more normal characters, and notice how much "run, shield, run, shield" is going on whenever a player doesn't want to be in the air. Yoshi's viable OoS options are drop shield (which is unusually slow) and spot dodge. Standing grab is so ridiculously slow he can't do anything at all to punish most attacks against his shield, and Yoshi cannot jump. Instead he just has to settle for merely getting out of the situation with no damage... hopefully.
What Yoshi has to compensate for this is, IMO, one of the best approaches in the game, against most characters anyway.
In the air, Yoshi is the fastest character, horizontally. For example, he can catch a banana he throws horizontally from the air before he lands. He has an aireal grab which is different from (not worse than) Wario's, and when combined with his double jump, Yoshi can instantly set his aireal momentum to whatever speed he wants in any direction (not just horizontally!) as he uses it. NAir has minimal lag, a long lasting hitbox, either kills or sets up combos / attack strings, and can just as easily be used when facing the other way instead of BAir, which also sets Yoshi in a good position if it lands and is long range and all that good stuff.
Also, double jump super armor is amazing. Some characters' aireal games become almost irrelevant against Yoshi, as double jump through >> NAir/UAir winds up beating so many of the attacks. It's also useful when approaching, as double jump >> NAir/DownB can punish a number of attacks.
On the ground, Yoshi is quite fast, though not the fastest. More importantly, though, he can wavedash (called "dragonic reverse" for whatever reason), giving him arguably the most agility of any character and lets him fake out / mix up the motion of his dashing approaches better than anyone else. Unfortunately, doing this is very technical and most Yoshis (myself included) don't actually use this huge advantage we have; messing it up results in a double jump FAir or something equally dumb. Someone getting comfortable with using DR as many times as is necessary in a match rather than as many times as the player feels he can actually do it would be a huge boost to Yoshi's game.
Continuing with the ground game, once Yoshi does choose to attack, dashing grab, while very punishable if missed, against most characters it beats anything other than spotdodge / roll with its extremely long range. If they do one of those actions, punishing with either pivot grab or a smash (USmash is easy if they spotdodge or roll backward, DSmash will deal ~30% damage if they spotdodge at low percent and you can DR, if they forward roll, punishing with a smash will require DR, or you can just BAir / Egg Lay.) Or you can short hop and suddenly switch them to needing to deal with your abnormally good aireal approach game. Or you can use one of the best spotdodges in the game and follow up with jabs or whatever.
Anyway, once you land a hit, Yoshi's got quite the combo machine going. Here's one of Slice's combo videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoEk4ndFF3g.
Even though it's a combo video, it mostly shows stuff that happens with Yoshi all the time. (FAir combos.. not so much, but they happen too.) Notice how ridiculously good a position Yoshi is in after landing almost any hit whatsoever at low or mid percents.
Yoshi's also quite good when set up defensively, but this is pretty common among Brawl characters. I think the goodness of Yoshi's pivot grab is well enough known already, so I won't go into detail there. A nice detail that isn't obvious is how useful Yoshi's contorting his body when setting up for a smash can be - a well spaced attack versus Yoshi can unexpectedly turn into a narrow miss with a ~15% price tag just because Yoshi decided to smash. He can stutter step pretty well, too, to enhance the effect.
More on Yoshi's technical nature. Check out this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266444
In terms of matchups, where Yoshi suffers is against characters with enough fast, safe, long range, disjoint attacks with which to simultaneously shut down his approach and to be able to combo Yoshi without double jump or NAir being relevant escape options - Marth, Lucario, Meta Knight, maybe Samus. Lucario's particularly bad because his moveset is set up in such a way as to make scoring KOs quite a pain for Yoshi specifically, and we all know what happens when you fail to score a KO on Lucario. The Meta Knight issue is sort of mitigated so long as Yoshi is on the counterpick - FD and Halberd help make the grab release chaingrab / USmash actually relevant, however, during the typical tug and pull of the battle, MK shuts Yoshi down hard.
Other high and mid tier characters are totally manageable for Yoshi, and with enough practice with his very relevant list of ATs, I think he could find himself alongside Peach, etc. Heck, I'd get to work on that myself if my dexterity weren't so bad... also, I still need to work a lot more on the more fundamental predicting / baiting / etc parts of the game. For now, his tournament results look like that of someone in E tier rather than in F tier.
And now for the usual chart.
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
One of Yoshi's weaknesses that nobody mentioned is his ability to get juggled in the air after he's lost his jumps. MK in particular can juggle him all day long once he's lost it. It's really important to keep it.
I think Yoshi is not low tier. He especially dominates low tier tournaments whenever there is a good Yoshi player present as well, since most of the characters he can chaingrab happen to be there. The chain grab is a nice bonus, but not a huge deal. It's just a good move, but it's not a bonus akin to real chaingrabs like DDD's, Falco's, Pikachu's, etc. It's good for refreshing moves, gaining positioning and momentum, and getting in a great position to edgeguard. It is not good for damage unless you can upsmash the character out of it, so in that case it is good. It is easy to get a grab with Yoshi with his incredible pivot grab though.
Yoshi doesn't really beat anybody in the high or top tier, but he has winnable matchups all around. I don't know why the boards thinks he does so bad against Lucario. I think his worst matchup is Snake, he just can't kill Snake for squat, and Snake builds up damage really fast on Yoshi. MK matchup is not close to even, people just think it is when they aren't experienced with Yoshi's.
Yoshi is a great character to punish people for mistakes. Forward smash punishes reads REALLY well, as does upsmash. When I play Yoshi, I use upsmash to rack up damage and up air to kill. A fresh up air is really strong but once you've used it once it's really compromised on kill ability. The reason I use Yoshi is because he ruins air dodgers and I have fun reading defensive moves and punishing accordingly, to me it's one of the most fun playstyles to have.
His eggs are solid - ETS is important for any Yoshi to master (Egg toss slide) it lets him retreat and approach with the eggs and space properly, making it much harder for people to punish them. Also makes him unpredictable because out of a dash he can just choose to do something that isn't an egg. Techniques like dragonic reversing are useful but nobody really masters them with Yoshi. As crow said very technical to do what all Yoshi can offer and nobody's really taken it upon themselves to master it, perhaps it's just too much.
And yes, his shielding is his biggest weakness, it is wise to focus one's game against Yoshi on this aspect, and this detriments him a ton. I wanted to go over details of Yoshi not really mentioned as much in this thread in my post. Overall I'd say he's near the bottom of mid tier, probably the bottom of E tier, but top of F tier at worst.
I think Yoshi is not low tier. He especially dominates low tier tournaments whenever there is a good Yoshi player present as well, since most of the characters he can chaingrab happen to be there. The chain grab is a nice bonus, but not a huge deal. It's just a good move, but it's not a bonus akin to real chaingrabs like DDD's, Falco's, Pikachu's, etc. It's good for refreshing moves, gaining positioning and momentum, and getting in a great position to edgeguard. It is not good for damage unless you can upsmash the character out of it, so in that case it is good. It is easy to get a grab with Yoshi with his incredible pivot grab though.
Yoshi doesn't really beat anybody in the high or top tier, but he has winnable matchups all around. I don't know why the boards thinks he does so bad against Lucario. I think his worst matchup is Snake, he just can't kill Snake for squat, and Snake builds up damage really fast on Yoshi. MK matchup is not close to even, people just think it is when they aren't experienced with Yoshi's.
Yoshi is a great character to punish people for mistakes. Forward smash punishes reads REALLY well, as does upsmash. When I play Yoshi, I use upsmash to rack up damage and up air to kill. A fresh up air is really strong but once you've used it once it's really compromised on kill ability. The reason I use Yoshi is because he ruins air dodgers and I have fun reading defensive moves and punishing accordingly, to me it's one of the most fun playstyles to have.
His eggs are solid - ETS is important for any Yoshi to master (Egg toss slide) it lets him retreat and approach with the eggs and space properly, making it much harder for people to punish them. Also makes him unpredictable because out of a dash he can just choose to do something that isn't an egg. Techniques like dragonic reversing are useful but nobody really masters them with Yoshi. As crow said very technical to do what all Yoshi can offer and nobody's really taken it upon themselves to master it, perhaps it's just too much.
And yes, his shielding is his biggest weakness, it is wise to focus one's game against Yoshi on this aspect, and this detriments him a ton. I wanted to go over details of Yoshi not really mentioned as much in this thread in my post. Overall I'd say he's near the bottom of mid tier, probably the bottom of E tier, but top of F tier at worst.
I play against Yoshi by abusing his OOS options. He's got a VERY good jab, but Peach does a very good job at shield pressuring and punishing spotdodge, which shuts down Yoshi once Peach gets in.
That said, I feel very uncomfortable with actually trying to get in to Yoshi. He's actually a very solid character until you put him in a position that forces him to shield.
That said, I feel very uncomfortable with actually trying to get in to Yoshi. He's actually a very solid character until you put him in a position that forces him to shield.
Crow!
Smash Lord
Yoshi has extremely fast combo breaking options in NAir and just simply Double Jump. Where he hits problems with being juggled is against characters whose UAirs are either disjoint enough to beat NAir, are strong enough slice through double jump's armor, or (shudder) both.
There's also the question of how you land once you're too high in the air (i.e. because you double jumped). If there are slopes on the stage, down-B makes this pretty easy (if you slide off a platform, it becomes lagless). Otherwise, you're just going to have to use the high horizontal air speed to weasel your way down.
There's also the question of how you land once you're too high in the air (i.e. because you double jumped). If there are slopes on the stage, down-B makes this pretty easy (if you slide off a platform, it becomes lagless). Otherwise, you're just going to have to use the high horizontal air speed to weasel your way down.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Just so you guys know, when he DJ's it isn't SUPER armor, it is HEAVY armor. If you do something like 17%+ you knock him out of it.
But yeah, Yoshi definitely isn't low tier. He is better than Ike.
For those of you saying that he gets juggled when he has no jumps/eggs, WHY WOULD THEY NOT HAVE JUMPS/EGGS?!? Only bad yoshi's use their egg/DJ early. Since he has the fastest mobility (And even faster when he AD's I believe) he can easily run away from an opponent in the air. If he is hit off the ledge, he will use his eggs for horizontal momentum, and only use his DJ if he needs to get vertical. It is really hard to edgeguard a Yoshi that knows what he is doing. If you are going for a footstool, he will DJ AD and get where he needs. If you attack, he will absorb the attack with the heavy armor and then nair or uair me (Poltergust has done that to me a lot). Even if they DJ too aggressively and they miss, his moves don't have that much lag so he can always land with a falling nair/bair (And with his air speed it makes it difficult to punish his landing).
His shield really isn't that bad. It has I think 1 frame more to drop, and combined with his jab it still makes very fast punishes (Like buffer jab out of sidestep). His shield is also the one shield in the game that can't be poked. It also has a little more shield health (OR whatever it is called). His sidestep is really good btw.
Yoshi is a hard punisher. He can punish with F-smash (Then edgeguarding), U-smash (Then juggling), Bair combos, and egg lay. Egg lay can sometimes give Yoshi a 30 frame advantage if caught either on a certain part of the tongue or a certain time frame on the attack (Not quite sure which). He can do silly things to people who are scared. A lot of combos are broken apart by his DJ. It gives him frame 1 heavy armor, so Yoshi can take the attack and then hit you afterwards out of a combo. It is irritating...
His egg toss is EXTREMELY good. Most people don't know this (I didn't until like...last week) but Yoshi's egg actually has 2 hitboxes: The egg itself and the explosion of the egg. That is why it will blow up snake's grenades in one hit (Which effectively stops his camping). The egg also bounces on shields (since it has 2 hitboxes) and can cause a lot of problems and score a lot of free hits. You will shield the egg, think that is it, and then the egg will hit you anyway. It is really irritating.
His MU's aren't that bad. MK Yoshi is probably 55:45 MK. Yoshi gets a lot of things. Pivot grab, egg, Down-b, and U-smash (Not sure about the last one) beat tornado. Yoshi has a CG against MK as well, and can get a U-smash free (So don't get grabbed at 110%). MK thrives on shield stabbing/poking with tilts and tornado, and MK can't shield stab Yoshi. I can't even really think of what a BAD position is in this MU for Yoshi. Long range he has eggs, close range he has jab, f-tilt, pivot grab, and quick Nairs. Mid range he has D-tilt and D-smash. If he catches anybody being too aggressive, pivot grab works wonders.
Example vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YTM0y0a4M
Snake is probably 55:45 or 60:40 snake. Grenades aren't in this MU because Eggs break them and come out faster (Unless its grenade shield drop grenade). Yoshi edgeguards snake like a beast and keeps him in the air really well. Snake doesn't have great shield pressure, so Yoshi doesn't suffer in that aspect. Yoshi lives for quite a while so the damage output effects Yoshi less than most other characters, and yoshi can rack damage on snake quickly (Egg + Grenade damage = 22% or something along those lines. One edge-guard string can give 50-60, + egg camping afterwards.
Example vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP5XqhBcv7E
IDK Diddy or Falco.
Yoshi beats IC probably 60:40. His eggs and bair are great for separating, and then yoshi destroys nana. He also has a fast throws which separate them hard, and then beats up the other one. It is a pretty easy to play that match.
More later.
But yeah, Yoshi definitely isn't low tier. He is better than Ike.
For those of you saying that he gets juggled when he has no jumps/eggs, WHY WOULD THEY NOT HAVE JUMPS/EGGS?!? Only bad yoshi's use their egg/DJ early. Since he has the fastest mobility (And even faster when he AD's I believe) he can easily run away from an opponent in the air. If he is hit off the ledge, he will use his eggs for horizontal momentum, and only use his DJ if he needs to get vertical. It is really hard to edgeguard a Yoshi that knows what he is doing. If you are going for a footstool, he will DJ AD and get where he needs. If you attack, he will absorb the attack with the heavy armor and then nair or uair me (Poltergust has done that to me a lot). Even if they DJ too aggressively and they miss, his moves don't have that much lag so he can always land with a falling nair/bair (And with his air speed it makes it difficult to punish his landing).
His shield really isn't that bad. It has I think 1 frame more to drop, and combined with his jab it still makes very fast punishes (Like buffer jab out of sidestep). His shield is also the one shield in the game that can't be poked. It also has a little more shield health (OR whatever it is called). His sidestep is really good btw.
Yoshi is a hard punisher. He can punish with F-smash (Then edgeguarding), U-smash (Then juggling), Bair combos, and egg lay. Egg lay can sometimes give Yoshi a 30 frame advantage if caught either on a certain part of the tongue or a certain time frame on the attack (Not quite sure which). He can do silly things to people who are scared. A lot of combos are broken apart by his DJ. It gives him frame 1 heavy armor, so Yoshi can take the attack and then hit you afterwards out of a combo. It is irritating...
His egg toss is EXTREMELY good. Most people don't know this (I didn't until like...last week) but Yoshi's egg actually has 2 hitboxes: The egg itself and the explosion of the egg. That is why it will blow up snake's grenades in one hit (Which effectively stops his camping). The egg also bounces on shields (since it has 2 hitboxes) and can cause a lot of problems and score a lot of free hits. You will shield the egg, think that is it, and then the egg will hit you anyway. It is really irritating.
His MU's aren't that bad. MK Yoshi is probably 55:45 MK. Yoshi gets a lot of things. Pivot grab, egg, Down-b, and U-smash (Not sure about the last one) beat tornado. Yoshi has a CG against MK as well, and can get a U-smash free (So don't get grabbed at 110%). MK thrives on shield stabbing/poking with tilts and tornado, and MK can't shield stab Yoshi. I can't even really think of what a BAD position is in this MU for Yoshi. Long range he has eggs, close range he has jab, f-tilt, pivot grab, and quick Nairs. Mid range he has D-tilt and D-smash. If he catches anybody being too aggressive, pivot grab works wonders.
Example vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YTM0y0a4M
Snake is probably 55:45 or 60:40 snake. Grenades aren't in this MU because Eggs break them and come out faster (Unless its grenade shield drop grenade). Yoshi edgeguards snake like a beast and keeps him in the air really well. Snake doesn't have great shield pressure, so Yoshi doesn't suffer in that aspect. Yoshi lives for quite a while so the damage output effects Yoshi less than most other characters, and yoshi can rack damage on snake quickly (Egg + Grenade damage = 22% or something along those lines. One edge-guard string can give 50-60, + egg camping afterwards.
Example vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP5XqhBcv7E
IDK Diddy or Falco.
Yoshi beats IC probably 60:40. His eggs and bair are great for separating, and then yoshi destroys nana. He also has a fast throws which separate them hard, and then beats up the other one. It is a pretty easy to play that match.
More later.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
To upset Shaky as much as possible: Yoshi has no OOS options and is therefore bad!
I like Yoshi and wish I could learn to play him. His grab game just seems so beastly in practice. People tell me DDD is bad for him, but I find as DDD it's difficult to get back down to the ground once Yoshi has you up there. He has so many good options, not the least of which is an amazing pivot grab to catch landing opponents. Trying to get down to the ground with anyone against Yoshi is freaking annoying. He has moves like Bair and Nair that last a while, have large hitboxes and put you back in a bad position, he can fake you out into his grabs or neutral B and you're right back where you started. Because of these threats it's easy to lure air dodged and hit his spike or uair for the bait.
I don't know many specifics about Yoshi, though we used to have a good Yoshi main around here. Bwett also switched to Diddy, so my upkeep on what the current Yoshi meta is would be pretty limited at this point.
@ESAM, my understanding has always been that his dj isn't percent dependent, but knockback dependent making it easier to knock him out of the higher in damage he is, but I guess it amounts to the same things really.
I like Yoshi and wish I could learn to play him. His grab game just seems so beastly in practice. People tell me DDD is bad for him, but I find as DDD it's difficult to get back down to the ground once Yoshi has you up there. He has so many good options, not the least of which is an amazing pivot grab to catch landing opponents. Trying to get down to the ground with anyone against Yoshi is freaking annoying. He has moves like Bair and Nair that last a while, have large hitboxes and put you back in a bad position, he can fake you out into his grabs or neutral B and you're right back where you started. Because of these threats it's easy to lure air dodged and hit his spike or uair for the bait.
I don't know many specifics about Yoshi, though we used to have a good Yoshi main around here. Bwett also switched to Diddy, so my upkeep on what the current Yoshi meta is would be pretty limited at this point.
@ESAM, my understanding has always been that his dj isn't percent dependent, but knockback dependent making it easier to knock him out of the higher in damage he is, but I guess it amounts to the same things really.
T-block
B2B TST
I looked it up... 17 frames to drop Yoshi's shield, as opposed to 7 for other shields. 1 frame would be barely noticeable lol. He does have a spotdodge that is tied for best in the game though, but when it's your ONLY option out of a shield, it doesn't really matter how good it is.
Crow!
Smash Lord
Recovering isn't something Yoshi looks forward to, and switching to recovery mode as a way to avoid juggling probably isn't a good idea in most matchups.
Yes, Yoshi can cover each option the opponent has, and he is actually pretty likely to return to the stage unscathed - compare to Snake who, when hit low, expects to take at least ~30% damage against many opponents before getting back. Unfortunately, unlike Snake and many other characters, getting read just once while offstage usually results in Yoshi losing a stock immediately - other characters generally just take extra damage and then get another opportunity to try again.
Yes, Yoshi can cover each option the opponent has, and he is actually pretty likely to return to the stage unscathed - compare to Snake who, when hit low, expects to take at least ~30% damage against many opponents before getting back. Unfortunately, unlike Snake and many other characters, getting read just once while offstage usually results in Yoshi losing a stock immediately - other characters generally just take extra damage and then get another opportunity to try again.
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2009
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Yoshi's pivot grab can be hard to deal with. Put that together with some of the combo strength that has been mentioned before, his heavy armor double jump (plus his aerial mobility), plus his eggs... and you've got someone that's reasonably hard to track down.
I've played the MK-Yoshi match up a bit, and have been hit with the GR to spike on a few occasions >.>;. His options to go through tornado are pretty impressive and I think his smash movements have been noted already: he moves a lot when smashing, so his move can double as a dodge (e.g. ridiculously good spacing).
Frame-data wise, there are a few things worth touching on:
Dsmash----------
Start up: 5
Hits: 6-7 and 22-23
Hit Lag: 6-9 both
Hit after Charging: 3,19
Ends: 49
That's one frame slower on start up than MK's. If you measure from the end of the second hit, MK's cool down is 22 frames and Yoshi's is 26 frames. Not too shabby. Yoshi's total move time is longer because the two hits are spaced farther apart.
Nair----------
Start up: 2
Strong Hit(12%): 3-5
Hit Lag: 6-8
Middle Hit(9%): 6-16
Hit Lag: 5-7
Weak Hit(6%): 16-31
Hit Lag: 5-6
Landing Lag: 9
Ends: 44
Hits on frame 3, and can be put together with his double jump heavy armor. Awesome.
Utilt----------
Start up: 6
Hits: 7-11
Hit lag: 5-8
Ends: 29
This move is awesome! It's right on par, frame wise, with Fox's (though it hits three frames later). I see this used out of various landings (yoshi landing or the opponent landing), and I'd need a Yoshi main to talk more on this... but does it have the ability to combo into itself?
---------
That and I've read about his up B yielding frame advantage if done right. Not many moves in the game grant that property, so I'd say that's a big plus.
I've played the MK-Yoshi match up a bit, and have been hit with the GR to spike on a few occasions >.>;. His options to go through tornado are pretty impressive and I think his smash movements have been noted already: he moves a lot when smashing, so his move can double as a dodge (e.g. ridiculously good spacing).
Frame-data wise, there are a few things worth touching on:
Dsmash----------
Start up: 5
Hits: 6-7 and 22-23
Hit Lag: 6-9 both
Hit after Charging: 3,19
Ends: 49
That's one frame slower on start up than MK's. If you measure from the end of the second hit, MK's cool down is 22 frames and Yoshi's is 26 frames. Not too shabby. Yoshi's total move time is longer because the two hits are spaced farther apart.
Nair----------
Start up: 2
Strong Hit(12%): 3-5
Hit Lag: 6-8
Middle Hit(9%): 6-16
Hit Lag: 5-7
Weak Hit(6%): 16-31
Hit Lag: 5-6
Landing Lag: 9
Ends: 44
Hits on frame 3, and can be put together with his double jump heavy armor. Awesome.
Utilt----------
Start up: 6
Hits: 7-11
Hit lag: 5-8
Ends: 29
This move is awesome! It's right on par, frame wise, with Fox's (though it hits three frames later). I see this used out of various landings (yoshi landing or the opponent landing), and I'd need a Yoshi main to talk more on this... but does it have the ability to combo into itself?
---------
That and I've read about his up B yielding frame advantage if done right. Not many moves in the game grant that property, so I'd say that's a big plus.
Everything I've seen done by Yoshi players tells me he's the campiest character in the game.
Yoshi's advantages revolve around Egg Toss to pressure far opponents and beat aerial approaches and a ridiculous pivot grab to punish people as they try to get close. If he ends up in their face, he just abuses his ridiculous jab to push them away and resume camping. This makes him pretty linear, but it's also a pretty effective strategy. A nice bonus is that it maximizes the impact of grab release in the match-ups in which it's relevant (Diddy Kong, Wario [infinite], Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Falco, Squirtle, Lucas, Sonic if I recall, though he can wall infinite Captain Falcon but not cg him otherwise). That hits up a lot of high tiers.
Yoshi has a few other good things about him. Egg Lay is a deceptively good move for annoyance and disruption purposes even if it doesn't do much damage or lead to much damage for that matter. Yoshi's bair is pretty decent and lets him compete in air to air wars to some extent and make jump-in approaches at need, but I don't think his goofy air physics really work out all that well, and it loses to aerials that are really good (like... all of G&W's). Most of his moveset has at least situational usefulness, and he has all sorts of goofy little super technical tricks for the enterprising Yoshi main.
His weaknesses are really huge though. His biggest weakness is that he has a really hard time killing anyone he can't combo into usmash out of grab release on. As G&W I know it's pretty hard to get an offense going on Yoshi, and it's pretty hard to avoid taking damage, but it doesn't really translate to a Yoshi advantage since he has to get me to nearly 200% every stock to actually finish me off as long as I keep playing carefully and don't ever let him get more than he deserves out of any exchange. That's as G&W; I shudder to imagine what Yoshi's plan for actually ending one of Snake's stocks is.
Not having a real shield really sucks a lot for Yoshi; his defensive game is so good otherwise, but he has to be actively working hard at defense always when other characters have easier answers, and there are so many things in this game that only are effective against Yoshi because every other character and easily block and punish while Yoshi can't. I think every character in the cast has Yoshi-exclusive pressure tactics just because of the myriad things that are unsafe on block in general but safe on block against Yoshi.
A third issue is that, while Yoshi has some great ways to deal damage, they're all slow damage rackers. His jab does a lot to keep him safe but little to lead into real big damage as long as the opponent realizes "if I get hit by this, I work to back off always". In match-ups in which he can't grab release chaingrab, all those pivot grabs he has such an easy time landing don't translate to nearly as much damage as he would like since he has the overall least damaging throws out of the entire cast, and none of them lead to anything. It just limits Yoshi's ability to run away with matches; he has to be earning his damage every step of the way in a series of countless exchanges. That's really not good at all even if he's pretty decent at those exchanges.
All of those issues I feel will always keep Yoshi in the low tier; it's kinda impossible to avoid being "bad" with that stacked against you. However, Yoshi has a solid game plan and a lot of tricks; I think he's one of the better low tiers. Among low tiers, I'd rank him below Jigglypuff but above all the others.
Yoshi's advantages revolve around Egg Toss to pressure far opponents and beat aerial approaches and a ridiculous pivot grab to punish people as they try to get close. If he ends up in their face, he just abuses his ridiculous jab to push them away and resume camping. This makes him pretty linear, but it's also a pretty effective strategy. A nice bonus is that it maximizes the impact of grab release in the match-ups in which it's relevant (Diddy Kong, Wario [infinite], Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Falco, Squirtle, Lucas, Sonic if I recall, though he can wall infinite Captain Falcon but not cg him otherwise). That hits up a lot of high tiers.
Yoshi has a few other good things about him. Egg Lay is a deceptively good move for annoyance and disruption purposes even if it doesn't do much damage or lead to much damage for that matter. Yoshi's bair is pretty decent and lets him compete in air to air wars to some extent and make jump-in approaches at need, but I don't think his goofy air physics really work out all that well, and it loses to aerials that are really good (like... all of G&W's). Most of his moveset has at least situational usefulness, and he has all sorts of goofy little super technical tricks for the enterprising Yoshi main.
His weaknesses are really huge though. His biggest weakness is that he has a really hard time killing anyone he can't combo into usmash out of grab release on. As G&W I know it's pretty hard to get an offense going on Yoshi, and it's pretty hard to avoid taking damage, but it doesn't really translate to a Yoshi advantage since he has to get me to nearly 200% every stock to actually finish me off as long as I keep playing carefully and don't ever let him get more than he deserves out of any exchange. That's as G&W; I shudder to imagine what Yoshi's plan for actually ending one of Snake's stocks is.
Not having a real shield really sucks a lot for Yoshi; his defensive game is so good otherwise, but he has to be actively working hard at defense always when other characters have easier answers, and there are so many things in this game that only are effective against Yoshi because every other character and easily block and punish while Yoshi can't. I think every character in the cast has Yoshi-exclusive pressure tactics just because of the myriad things that are unsafe on block in general but safe on block against Yoshi.
A third issue is that, while Yoshi has some great ways to deal damage, they're all slow damage rackers. His jab does a lot to keep him safe but little to lead into real big damage as long as the opponent realizes "if I get hit by this, I work to back off always". In match-ups in which he can't grab release chaingrab, all those pivot grabs he has such an easy time landing don't translate to nearly as much damage as he would like since he has the overall least damaging throws out of the entire cast, and none of them lead to anything. It just limits Yoshi's ability to run away with matches; he has to be earning his damage every step of the way in a series of countless exchanges. That's really not good at all even if he's pretty decent at those exchanges.
All of those issues I feel will always keep Yoshi in the low tier; it's kinda impossible to avoid being "bad" with that stacked against you. However, Yoshi has a solid game plan and a lot of tricks; I think he's one of the better low tiers. Among low tiers, I'd rank him below Jigglypuff but above all the others.
I find that it's useful to just pivot grab as Yoshi anytime you are tempted to shield. Most of the time it's a much better option. Yoshi doesn't have to shield TOO much because he has that pivot grab for defense purposes. If he's forced in that shielding position it's really bad, but he can avoid that situation a lot, and to me that's what keeps him from being low tier (having enough options to not have to shield in many situations)
Marcbri
Smash Lord
I really don't know much about the character, I try to exploit his terrible shield and when I play as him I tend to spam jab when the opponent comes close, mixing it up with retreating nairs, pivot grabs, or jab cancel to tilts. Still, just like AA said, there are many tactics most characters have that abuse yoshi's lack of shield to destroy him in close combat. And yes, yoshi's pivot grab is one of his best moves, it's really useful vs grounded approaches and even some air ones.
About match-ups I dunno much, so I'll just talk about Falco vs Yoshi:
Overall I think Falco wins this match-up 6:4 or 65:35, Yoshi is lucky to have his grab release tricks, it would be worse without that.
Falco outcamps yoshi easily, he can't shield them like most chars would so he's more limited to spotdodge/airdodging them or just jumping above them ( running yoshi can also go below lasers if falco's shooting too high). Egg throw can be annoying at first because of it being hard to power shield and spotdodge, but shine easily gets that move down, retreating jump while shining works pretty well on a camping yoshi.
He can't usmash us out of a grab release like he does with more characters, which greatly increases our chances to live to high %, but can still chaingrab us most of the times ( we only get to platforms in specific situations in yoshi's, halberd, castle siege and lylat). Thankfully the spike after that is really hard to do and kinda situational.
Yoshi has still a cool kill setup on falco not many people now, he can grab us ( mainly pivot grab) out of our sideb, then release us on the ledge and just grab the ledge, we're dead since we can only upb xD. It's situational but it makes falco be really careful about his recovery.
Besides that this match-up is pretty simple, Falco can either camp yoshi or try to beat him with his godlike jab mixup in close combat, but being risky of yoshi's grab. Falco still has to be careful about some of yoshi's trick like his dj super armor with uair that can kill him really early, but if the falco knows yoshi's gimmicks he should do pretty well vs him
That's pretty much what I know about him, although I'm pretty sure I'm missing some important points, it's not a character I really enjoy playing so I don't use him/know him as much as the rest of the cast, and no one uses to play him over here.
About match-ups I dunno much, so I'll just talk about Falco vs Yoshi:
Overall I think Falco wins this match-up 6:4 or 65:35, Yoshi is lucky to have his grab release tricks, it would be worse without that.
Falco outcamps yoshi easily, he can't shield them like most chars would so he's more limited to spotdodge/airdodging them or just jumping above them ( running yoshi can also go below lasers if falco's shooting too high). Egg throw can be annoying at first because of it being hard to power shield and spotdodge, but shine easily gets that move down, retreating jump while shining works pretty well on a camping yoshi.
He can't usmash us out of a grab release like he does with more characters, which greatly increases our chances to live to high %, but can still chaingrab us most of the times ( we only get to platforms in specific situations in yoshi's, halberd, castle siege and lylat). Thankfully the spike after that is really hard to do and kinda situational.
Yoshi has still a cool kill setup on falco not many people now, he can grab us ( mainly pivot grab) out of our sideb, then release us on the ledge and just grab the ledge, we're dead since we can only upb xD. It's situational but it makes falco be really careful about his recovery.
Besides that this match-up is pretty simple, Falco can either camp yoshi or try to beat him with his godlike jab mixup in close combat, but being risky of yoshi's grab. Falco still has to be careful about some of yoshi's trick like his dj super armor with uair that can kill him really early, but if the falco knows yoshi's gimmicks he should do pretty well vs him
That's pretty much what I know about him, although I'm pretty sure I'm missing some important points, it's not a character I really enjoy playing so I don't use him/know him as much as the rest of the cast, and no one uses to play him over here.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
How does Yoshi do against some of the more obscure high tiers, like Olimar and Pikachu?
Darkmusician
Smash Master
If Yoshi can get an egg lay he can wipe out most if not all of Olimars Pikmin by down smashing right after.
Count
Smash Champion
On the idk about Yoshi vs diddy by esam...
I think Yoshi is one of Diddy Kong's easier matchups. Diddy is extremely good at limiting options and when a characters shield is super terrible and limits his options anyway, Diddy can take advantage. Yoshi's shield also makes him particularly susceptible to diddy kong side b latches.
Yoshi's recovery is also easier for Diddy to punish then most with banana dribbles and what not to force slips etc, at least compared to characters that more often or more easily grab the ledge.
I think Yoshi is one of Diddy Kong's easier matchups. Diddy is extremely good at limiting options and when a characters shield is super terrible and limits his options anyway, Diddy can take advantage. Yoshi's shield also makes him particularly susceptible to diddy kong side b latches.
Yoshi's recovery is also easier for Diddy to punish then most with banana dribbles and what not to force slips etc, at least compared to characters that more often or more easily grab the ledge.
Yoshi and Pikachu is pretty close to even IMO, maybe slightly in Pika's favor. Yoshi can CG if buffered. Yoshi's up air actually beats Pika's down air as well. Yoshi's also pretty good at stopping Pika's QAC's with well timed and spacing bairs. Pika's priority can give Yoshi troubles, but Pika and Yoshi are close to even because they both have horrible range on their aerials, so they matchup closely there.
Yoshi and Olimar is a pretty close matchup too, as Olimar is champion of the ground Yoshi actually has some tools that takes that away with his long ranged grab and pivot grabs. It keeps Olimar from relying on his shield grabs and keeps him guessing. Yoshi also has the best air horizontal speed in the game, so approaching Olimar with bair's while he's throwing Pikmin doesn't cost Yoshi too much damage, and Yoshi has his ETS as well - ie Yoshi is a very hard character to camp. This might be even, I don't really know enough to decide
Yoshi and Olimar is a pretty close matchup too, as Olimar is champion of the ground Yoshi actually has some tools that takes that away with his long ranged grab and pivot grabs. It keeps Olimar from relying on his shield grabs and keeps him guessing. Yoshi also has the best air horizontal speed in the game, so approaching Olimar with bair's while he's throwing Pikmin doesn't cost Yoshi too much damage, and Yoshi has his ETS as well - ie Yoshi is a very hard character to camp. This might be even, I don't really know enough to decide
Darkmusician
Smash Master
How useful is Yoshi's bair and nair for beating things like up smash and forward smash and then hitting Olimar? Is there enough priority and or active frames to make it worth while?
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Yoshi Pika is 55:45 Pikachu. Pikachu can get a lot of damage when Yoshi is off the level and actually gimp him with jab. I get CG'd, but I can pressure him really well and T-jolt is still amazing.
Ugh...i summarized this on the yoshi boards and I don't feel like posting it again >_>
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221494
Ugh...i summarized this on the yoshi boards and I don't feel like posting it again >_>
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221494
Crow!
Smash Lord
Yoshi vs Diddy is not bad if the Yoshi has the technical game down. While not having a relevant shield is pretty annoying, Yoshi is the best character in the game at using and picking up items, and bananas let help Yoshi deal with his usual problem scoring kills. Double jump and Dragonic Reverse negate a lot of Diddy's usual options with bananas, too. And, while less of an issue, egg lay / dragonic egg lay mean that Diddy can't just shield an approach when there's a banana in front of him and know he's always safe like in most matchups.
Theorycraft:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb2K6Lo7l7s
Practice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yqBNo49ImU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYdU572oHw
Theorycraft:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb2K6Lo7l7s
Practice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yqBNo49ImU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYdU572oHw
T-block
B2B TST
I've played Yoshi vs Diddy from the Diddy side a bit, and it seems pretty even, maybe with a slight advantage to Diddy.
As Crow! said, an aerial grab makes shielding less effective, and we all know how good Diddy is in his shield. Yoshi works well with bananas, and his high aerial mobility makes them less effective when used against him as stage control - not to mention he does have a grab release chain if he manages to land a grab off one.
As Crow! said, an aerial grab makes shielding less effective, and we all know how good Diddy is in his shield. Yoshi works well with bananas, and his high aerial mobility makes them less effective when used against him as stage control - not to mention he does have a grab release chain if he manages to land a grab off one.
Count
Smash Champion
Those are all valid points-and maybe it isn't as large of advantage for Diddy as I thought-but I just don't see what Yoshi can do against a Diddy that camps and utilizes side b and fair. Yoshi's eggs are great but I don't think they can compete with Diddy's camp game, particularly if the Diddy player has powershielding eggs down.
Watched the videos though. That Yoshi is impressive.
Watched the videos though. That Yoshi is impressive.
I haven't played against a Yoshi in months, but just coming in with a quick explanation of Yoshi's double jump armor.
Armor in this game, as well as Melee and even 64, is not a strict negation of damage or knockback, but rather a reduction. Yoshi's "armor" can be seen as adding an absurd amount of "weight" to him as he's in his double jump. When knockback is reduced to 0 this way, hitstun is as well. However, if knockback is not reduced to 0...
Well, at low percents a tipper dair from Marth will cut Yoshi's double jump, but you'll notice he doesn't actually get spiked. At higher percents you might notice attacks that Yoshi could previously armor through breaking it. This is because knockback reduction is constant, and the knockback from your attack is based on his percent. So, yes, armor becomes gradually less effective as Yoshi takes more damage.
What does this mean? Basically it's a decent insurance against getting gimped by the usual fare at an early percentage, but it's likely not going to save you from things that are going to outright kill you, and attacks with particularly strong knockback will end up "accidentally" gimping you anyway.
Sorta.
Armor in this game, as well as Melee and even 64, is not a strict negation of damage or knockback, but rather a reduction. Yoshi's "armor" can be seen as adding an absurd amount of "weight" to him as he's in his double jump. When knockback is reduced to 0 this way, hitstun is as well. However, if knockback is not reduced to 0...
Well, at low percents a tipper dair from Marth will cut Yoshi's double jump, but you'll notice he doesn't actually get spiked. At higher percents you might notice attacks that Yoshi could previously armor through breaking it. This is because knockback reduction is constant, and the knockback from your attack is based on his percent. So, yes, armor becomes gradually less effective as Yoshi takes more damage.
What does this mean? Basically it's a decent insurance against getting gimped by the usual fare at an early percentage, but it's likely not going to save you from things that are going to outright kill you, and attacks with particularly strong knockback will end up "accidentally" gimping you anyway.
Not very good, back air doesn't have much priority. It's good for combating people who try to camp and approaching, but once you are close, it's not good to attack with it, Olimar's smashes will beat it out. It's good for hitting Pikmin he throws at you though as you make an approach.
I taught this to Dr. Robotnik like a year ago...the first time he landed it on Weruop, Weruop's WHATTHE- reaction was priceless.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
LOL Yeah! The Yoshi player should be like RAWR!!!
And ah I see Edreese thanks for the info.
T-block
B2B TST
First time I had it done to me my reaction was pretty much the same lol
Praxis - Dr Robotnik? Isn't that the best Yoshi of all time?
Yeah...remember those Yoshi tips I gave you last year before Genesis? Stuff I picked up from him.
Just wait till he can travel OOS, the tier list is screwed.
Just wait till he can travel OOS, the tier list is screwed.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
The egg lay on olimar sounds situation usually, which is what I get from a lot of players on it, but I find good Yoshi's are pretty much beasts at mixing up and it's far from just situational bull****.
I had a taste of Polter at Whobo 2. The problem, frankly, is that it's Yoshi. He's good, but I just abused his weaknesses as Wario and Diddy.
MK matchup against Yoshi isn't that great for Yoshi. The main problem Yoshi has is that he has NO reliable approach on MK. At all. Egg Toss simply is not enough. 6:4ish to 65:35 IMO. 55:45 is a BIG stretch I think.
Diddy is no fun for Yoshi. Yoshi has no real approaches for Diddy either. Even with the tricks and banana control he has, it doesn't change how safe Diddy is against him.
I've played against Yoshi too much. Yoshi is bad. Besides the obvious issues he has, the biggest thing I want to mention is this:
Stop doing the work for him.
ALL of Yoshi's best options are defensive, not offensive. By a LARGE margin. What does this mean? It means instead of trying to get inside close quarters with him when you have the lead, try standing midrange and have him come to you. Egg Toss is overrated in forcing an approach. Sit there and see what he can do. DJC Egglay real quick maybe? I mean really, Yoshi is pretty bad at successfully approaching. He has many options, but most of them are meh status.
So! Get lead, sit mid range or long range, Lol as he tosses Eggs and you avoid them (because most people forget that Yoshi is lagged for the egg toss, meaning even if you have to SH airdodge as Snake/someone sluggish that he can't punish it), and watch him have to play RPS with what option he will try to approach with. If your character is not someone who heavily frame traps him on Shield like Peach, Marth, MK, etc then maybe you don't need to be that close once you get some damage in. It's one thing if you are behind, by all means be cautious as you get closer to him, but dear lord I will cringe if I see another MK at like 80-90% start approaching when Yoshi has like 140% and ends up getting Pivot Grabbed into Usmash. Instead of, you know, waiting for Yoshi to come to him.
While I think Yoshi's approaches are decent on much of the cast, I agree that he has no approach against diddy or MK and that a lot of people do the work for Yoshi. However, I think that Yoshi's approaches (egg lay, baiting with pivot grabs, ETS) are pretty effective against mid tier characters and some good characters like IC.