Matchup Re-Discussion: Donkey Kong

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 57:43 in Pikachu's favor
Can we CG him?: Yes

- 0% - 67% + regrab
- Fthrow x 10 > grab

- 7% - 26% + regrab
- Dthrow x 2 > grab
*Can escape anytime with footstool.

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218987
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 55:45 in Pikachu's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273168&

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Donkey Kong Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202958

Summary:

In progress.

I still agree with 55:45 Pikachu.

Pikachu doesn't have a hard time getting in. With T-jolt approaches DK can't do much. His F-tilt won't hit the jolt and us, it will only hit one. If he shields it facing towards us, we can jump and T-jolt again. Once we get in we destroy obviously, with our pseudo combos and uair juggling. Don't forget the CG! Edgeguarding/perssuring will give DK a lot of %, so make sure you do it well.

On the other side, if DK is on the offensive...Pikachu runs for his life. T-jolts slow him down, but his bair is basically a platform with a hitbox. at like 15% it combos into itself and puts Pikachu in a bad position. Down-B will outrange anything you can try to do on the ground defensively (Including pivot F-smashes). However, DK is very predictable. If he is in the air facing away from you, shield. Watch for the FF landing to grab and the headbutt (Forward B). It can destroy shields.

Pikachu has actually a very little amount of pressure from DK compared to most characters. Most characters are forced to air-dodge when DK jumps at them when they are in the air, but Pikachu can QAC away. It alleviates a ton of pressure. Just don't do it too close or you will get hit and then have phantom lag.

Getting killed is obviously a big fear. We will die no later than 90% from any smash attack/punch. Fresh uair about halfway in the air on FD will kill at like...120-130%. Bair fresh will kill at 130% at the edge, and u-tilt will kill at 100%. It is stupidly strong for no reason...

Pikachu should get a lot of easy thunder kills. If we place it in the middle of him, he can't escape, he is too fat. U-smash thunder will kill at 120% before U-smash probably. U-tilt thunder at 140%. F-smash at the edge probably at like 130-140%. Remember...if he up-b breaks, free anything.

:D

His D-Tilt, U-Tilt, and BAir are unavoidable when I fight him >_<

Don't side step lol

I hate donkey punch

Match-up is still 55:45. I played Will and I was winning most of the times. It is pretty easy to stay away from the kill moves, and punches are always predictable and you have a lot of reaction time (Maybe because I play DK so its predictable...)

Match-up is really fun either way.

Even if DK does stuff to you, you laugh about it because it is so ridiculous.

ESAM said:

Even if DK does stuff to you, you laugh about it because it is so ridiculous.

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Nothing funny about getting donkey punched.

But you feel happy that they did it...or at least I do since I play DK.

You can grab any attacks that aren't disjointed at any time...just time it right to get the grab armor.

Bad stage for DK would be FD/SV. SV less so because when the platform is offstage he can jump on and get a punch. If you go after, he can grab b-throw for kills or he can just D-smash or something.

ESAM said:

You can grab any attacks that aren't disjointed at any time...just time it right to get the grab armor.

Bad stage for DK would be FD/SV. SV less so because when the platform is offstage he can jump on and get a punch. If you go after, he can grab b-throw for kills or he can just D-smash or something.

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Lol, yes. I play on both most of the time either way, with my DK. But just never let them counter pic Lylat Cruise. That imo is the perfect stage for him. The platforms are leveled right above his head, and it's VERY easy for him too set up kills with his U-smash.

So yeah, on stages to ban for Pikachu, ban brinstar. You will die stupid early, it messes up our CG, and its just...bad.

Don't take DK to picto, he has his little ledge hop UP-b invulnerability thingy. I mean, it isn't a huge deal, but ledge pressure for pika is a big part of the MU, and not having that can be really bad.

ESAM said:

So yeah, on stages to ban for Pikachu, ban brinstar. You will die stupid early, it messes up our CG, and its just...bad.

Don't take DK to picto, he has his little ledge hop UP-b invulnerability thingy. I mean, it isn't a huge deal, but ledge pressure for pika is a big part of the MU, and not having that can be really bad.

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Yeah, I forgot to mention that as well on Lylat. The stage seems to be built around DK. If anything, just make it flat stages to play him on. Smashville works well, as long as you don't get on the platform. If you like running space with Pika (which I think you would) then just stick to taking him to Final Destination. No platforms, more room to play with and the chance of DK getting caught under the corners of the stage.

FD and PS1 seem to be the best bets. BF is OK, just don't get caught on platforms.

ESAM said:

FD and PS1 seem to be the best bets. BF is OK, just don't get caught on platforms.

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That's why I wouldn't reccoment BF. The only one that's alright to be on is the center platfotm on the top. It's predictable if he's gonna jump and go for a U-air. Other than that, keep yourself completly grounded.

I'd give Pikachu the slight advantage because of the chain grabbing. Doesn't it go up to something like 50% if done right from the beginning of FD? Besides that, Pikachu has some little combos and stuff, but DK outranges Pikachu, can pull off a quicker kill, and lives longer. Most projectiles **** up DK but thunder jolts are easy to get round with ftils and other attacks.

/My 2 cents.

ESAM said:

Pikachu should get a lot of easy thunder kills. If we place it in the middle of him, he can't escape, he is too fat.

:D

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He's not FAT.

UGH!!

But yeah, I totally agree with the MU. I would also say it's 55/45