Ness vs. MetaKnight

Yink · Aug 26, 2010

Ness Match-Up Rediscussion #5

MetaKnight vs. Ness

Absorbable Projectiles: No
Normal Projectiles: No
Grab Release on Ness: Yes

d-tilt, f-tilt, d-smash.

The MetaKnight Board Match-Up Discussion: Click Me!
MetaKnight's Frame Data: Click Me!

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Terminology:

PKF = PK Fire
PKFL (PKFl) = PK Flash
PKT = PK Thunder (as the ball and tail itself)
PKT2 = PK Thunder 2 (where the ball has hit Ness, sending him flying)
PSIM - PSI Magnet
DAS = Double Aerial Shuffle...a technique used by Ness
AC = Auto-Cancel
SHAD = Short Hop Air Dodge
SH = Short Hop
FS = Footstool

Any other ones, like nair (Neutral Air) will not be explained, seeing as most people know what they mean. If you however don't know, just ask.

Summary:

Jigglypuff:

Ness:

Old: 60:40 MetaKnight

New: Discussing

*NOTE*: The purpose of this is to get a ratio as an approximation. The discussion for this thread is for the purpose of learning the match-up and what both sides can do or can't...it is not a thread for arguing if a ratio is 5 off or anything trivial.

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Please keep yourselves on track and do not flame or troll. Be civil and let's have a good discussion men (and women).

Omni · Aug 26, 2010

- space f-airs
- abuse your aerial mobility
- upb when mk is recovering is decent, but mk's glide attack can cancel it and leave you open. glide attack is the only move that ties with it
- overb sparingly. very sparingly. unless it's brinstar
- brinstar is a good stage to take mk
- retreating pivot grab eats dash attack. offensive pivot grabs are good if MK sidesteps alot.
- dont play near the edges of the stage. control the center and keep MK on the outside

that's all i can think of at the moment

Eagleye893 · Aug 26, 2010

Pkjump beats nado. Great improvement. Allows assured followup with uair. MK almost can use nado unless he's right on top of you, and even then he can get hit by a perfectly placed pk jump every time if you shield the entire attack. It involves skill, but it works. I'm almost 70% certain. xD such a low percent to say I'm sure about it.

Yes w/ aerial mobility. Sadly, we can only abuse two attacks with that due to how fast mk's are.

Fair is a bit meh. It is significantly better against mk, but I don't like it for some reason.

Agreed with pkt being awesome. Don't use it when he's above you unless you've got uber skills and can find an opening to hit him: mk has a quick ff and quick aerials, so it is basically suicide.

Pkfire is only good if you are perfect in placing it... So get to perfection!

I say brinstar is a double-edged sword: sure you get the advatage of breakable stuff on the stage, as well as an easy time recovering, but mk can camp under the stage with aerials on you and has an easy time gimping/killing. My personal preference is not that stage... The bad thing is that I don't know what stage is better. Delfino helps mk. Castle siege is meh. Sv is just even for both of us. Pirate ship is banned. Luigis is def in mk's favor (and almost universally banned). Maybe ps1, but that's similar to sv. Pictochat... Is my Kirby stage. Frigate doesn't help our recovery on the right side of the 1st part. RC... Yeah, take mk there if you want. ... I don't remember the other cps.

I'll keep that pivot grab in mind. I often forget it.

Great advice. I normally like to keep near edges and bait an mk out, which isn't very good of an idea. Keeping center and spacing better is the best idea, because mk has to work harder to get you offstage, where he prevails.

Thebest1pj · Aug 26, 2010

mk is a projectile

milesg2g · Aug 26, 2010

When you think of this MU you have to stop to think of what Ness can follow up on. Fair leads on to a lot of combo's but a good MK will DI the right way. Same w/ a barrage of Nairs it's just how you follow up w/ MK imo.

_clinton · Aug 26, 2010

MK has a good Dsmash.

milesg2g · Aug 26, 2010

_clinton said:
MK has a good Dsmash.

Was not aware.

BIG~L · Aug 26, 2010

lol miles at ur pic

milesg2g · Aug 26, 2010

BIG~L said:
lol miles at ur pic

Lol I know I love it.

_clinton · Aug 27, 2010

MK has a good up special as well.

StarLight · Aug 27, 2010

On topic: nair oos does wonders for me in this matchup

Off topic: Kilik is god. There is no other way.

MeekSpeedy · Aug 27, 2010

Eagleye893 said:
Pictochat... Is my Kirby stage.

Pictochat is a great CP against MK with most characters, especially ground strong characters. Why? The stage hazards keep aerial-bound characters out of the air. Shuttle loop can't KO you on the ground on this stage if you DI up-left/up-right, too, the ceiling is just too high. The thing is, this stage can work against Ness too because he's reliable upon his aerials too. As far as CP's go, Brinstar, if it's banned then Picto would be my suggestion.

milesg2g · Aug 27, 2010

StarLight said:
On topic: nair oos does wonders for me in this matchup

Off topic: Kilik is god. There is no other way.

ikr? he's just too good in that game but I don't main him I main Xianghua <3

On topic though. Doing stuff out of shield is critical in this MU, mainly because 1 grab will lead to a GR ****** from mk. It'd be wise to get the grab first out of shield but not to make it obvious or to even charge an upsmash to stop his approach. Nairing out of shield is just too good in this predicament. I don't advise spot dodging or shielding too long against mk he's just too fast.

Placebo Effect · Aug 27, 2010

milesg2g said:
Lol I know I love it.

Flapjack's too professional.

I'm not too good with the MK matchup, and what has worked for me in the past is pretty unorthodox from all I've heard except for the ghey grab release bs and gimping and use f-airs and whatnot. Outmindgame, outsmart, and out*****. Be careful and don't die.

I'm rather clueless about this one unfortunately. x_x

Ayoub · Aug 27, 2010

I think this matchup is even. Ness has great aerials, a combo breaker, can kill fast with PKt2 mindgames etc. MK might have more priortiy then Ness in the air, but Ness' fair still outranges whatever MK has. If you just retreat your fairs, you should be able to beat MK in the air. His nair is a great tool to use out of sheild. Can punish a lot of things MK does on sheild. 55-45 Ness favour in the air.

Groundgame. MK outranges Ness at this. But ness doesn't do too bad. And since Ness is in the air most of the time, this shouldnt be really hard to deal with anyway, but still in MKs favour. Ness obviously kills mk faster then MK kills Ness. Strong fsmash, bthrow wich kills MK kinda early due to his weight, PKT2 wich would kill MK at around 50%. MK has, dsmash and fsmash, nair. And gimp Ness. But if a Ness uses good DI, he shouldnt be gimped that easy at all. This is pretty even aswell.

This matchups is all about players skills. The better player wins the match, obviously. MK is overrated in this MU, Ness is underrated. O, and MK wouldnt go offstage a lot to try and gimp you anyway, since he risks a kill on 50-60% for that. =)

So, this all is totally true. Open your eyes.

milesg2g · Aug 27, 2010

Max Falcon said:
Flapjack's too professional.

I'm not too good with the MK matchup, and what has worked for me in the past is pretty unorthodox from all I've heard except for the ghey grab release bs and gimping and use f-airs and whatnot. Outmindgame, outsmart, and out*****. Be careful and don't die.

I'm rather clueless about this one unfortunately. x_x

Lol I know what you mean. You can always tell when someone doesn't want to give you advice or don't really know any advice to give when they say "More spacing" from their advice lol. That's basically like telling someone "Don't get hit but hit them, and yeah" lol.

_clinton · Aug 27, 2010

I've fought some pretty good MKs myself (INB4 lolwifi, AiB has good people on it ^_^), I don't really think the match is flat even but it isn't 7-3 or so MK at least.

Ayoub · Aug 27, 2010

Then what is it, it's obviously even I mean, just spam fair.

milesg2g · Aug 27, 2010

lol no it's not even because of that lol.

I've played some good MK's online as well. They don't just **** me I just wait for them to get aggro and try to out prioritize them.

Bartolon · Aug 27, 2010

He's trolling ya all lolz

Ayoub · Aug 27, 2010

milesg2g said:
lol no it's not even because of that lol.

I've played some good MK's online as well. They don't just **** me I just wait for them to get aggro and try to out prioritize them.

Online doesn't count.

And you can't wait to outprioritize someone. Maybe you mean outrange, wich is possible with Ness' awesome and disjointed Fair.

milesg2g · Aug 27, 2010

Ayoub said:
Online doesn't count.

And you can't wait to outprioritize someone. Maybe you mean outrange, wich is possible with Ness' awesome and disjointed Fair.

Sure whatever you wanna call it lol. It's all about your approach on MK w/ Fair imo. Fair is the key to this MU.

Ayoub · Aug 27, 2010

Bartolon said:
He's trolling ya all lolz

I would never troll people about a serious MU like MK, especially if it's a really underrated character.

Miles - Thats what I've been saying all the time. x)

Chuee · Aug 27, 2010

Ayoub please tell me your trolling LOL.

Ayoub · Aug 28, 2010

<_< Sorry for sharing my opinion full of facts.

milesg2g · Aug 28, 2010

It's ok you're just a pit main.

Jk jk jk.

I can agree w/ you on some points but it's not Ness' MU. lol

Chuee · Aug 28, 2010

Just because you can outrange MK in the air doesn't mean you go even with him <.<

milesg2g · Aug 28, 2010

Exactly.
Take it from me I play Ness and MK I can fully understand what MK's approaches are now that I second MK. You can't just beat him in the air, it's just not that easy.

Man of Popsicle · Aug 28, 2010

Ness does better vs. MK than a lot/a ton of the characters in brawl.
srsly, they don't expect anyone to be fighting them in the air.

PK Fire when you predict a dsmash, but not when/after he uses it.

And no one knows about his dash regrab on Ness :V

Chuee · Aug 28, 2010

I do.
10characters

Ayoub · Aug 28, 2010

It does.

"Its not that easy," so it can be easy. If you just play the MU right, it is even. Stay in the air a lot, where you have the advantage and abuse that advantage, you should be fine.

That you 2nd MK doesn't make you know the MU so well from both sides.
Don't worry about GR, you shouldn't be grabbed that often to actually worry about it.

Unless you fail.

Chuee · Aug 28, 2010

lol your argument is terrible.

Ayoub · Aug 28, 2010

Chuee said:
lol your argument is Chuee.

I totally agree.

Eagleye893 · Aug 28, 2010

^okay... Ayoub... you obviously don't have a lot of knowledge about ness... or MK for that matter. If you don't have anything new to add to discussion, because we've already heard of or seen what you are suggesting, then just state your main points for a reasoning as to what you would have the MU ratio as and state/list different things that ness can have over mk and what MK has over ness that makes it so.

Judging an MU as "if you play well, you win" is probably the stupidest argument ever, because the same can be said of nearly any character in the game.... except Gdorf. Give more concrete reasons rather than "because i say so."

If you keep inputting nothing, just get out.

Also, based off of my last post with tons of MU info, I say about 55:45 MK, but it could also be 60:40. the 55:45 is because of my discovery of PKjump's usage. MK has quick everything, which annoys us in some instances.

Ayoub · Aug 28, 2010

Yes, and ur argument of making the MU better because of that useless AT where you must put your fingers like a handicap or have to change controlls makes GREAT sense.

This MU is 55-45 Ness favour because apperantly PK jumps makes the MU a lot better, cool didn't know that.

MKs speed annoys you in "some" instances, then stay away from that kind of instances, eezeepeezee.

You obviously don't have a lot of knowledge about Ness.

Lord Chair · Aug 28, 2010

Don't mess with Ayoub, he has the best Ness in Europe and seconds MK so he knows the MU really well.

Oh and he doesn't eat pork so yeah, where you @. Really, if you have nothing to contribute to this discussion aside of supposedly proving superior players wrong, you're really just degrading the quality of this thread. All in all, you're ruining it for others by making them read posts which are, clearly, not worthwhile. You're supplying new players with false information, and are technically withholding them the RIGHT information by bashing Ayoub, who's been right all along.

To be frank, you're fighting a losing battle by regurgitating the same nonsense over and over again. It's clear that Ness wins this MU, he kills MK at 10% by spiking him and at 50% with bthrow (it often goes so fast due to MK's weight that your opponent doesn't have the time to react and DI the move properly, so it's safe to assume it kills earlier than the usual 70% across the stage, with good DI). There's little MK can do, once he's offstage you only need to get him to commit to uair and proceed to punish it's blatant cooldown lag. Just get the timing down it's easy.

Chuee · Aug 28, 2010

w/e might as well reply to this.

Ayoub said:
It does.

"Its not that easy," so it can be easy. If you just play the MU right, it is even.
No, it's nowhere near even.
Stay in the air a lot, where you have the advantage and abuse that advantage, you should be fine.
Ness only beats MK when mk is in the air. Staying in the air is going to get you juggled hard by MK.

That you 2nd MK doesn't make you know the MU so well from both sides.
Don't worry about GR, you shouldn't be grabbed that often to actually worry about it.
Great argument. Ness isn't Wario. Dunno how many times I have to say this <.< Also the GR sets up really well for gimps.

Unless you fail.
Like you.

Ayoub, you overrate Ness' strengths in the MU and don't even list anything MK has on Ness.
Ness kills mk earlier? Yeah, maybe if you can get a grab, which mk can avoid really well, at like 115-120% before he Dsmashs you or gimps you.
Avoiding gimps with good DI? lol every character in the cast can avoid gimps with good DI <.< Also try DIing a grab release.
"can kill fast with PKt2 mindgames" LOL
"His nair is a great tool to use out of sheild. Can punish a lot of things MK does on sheild." Yeah, if mk leaves his spacing at home.
"Groundgame. MK outranges Ness at this. But ness doesn't do too bad." Not too bad? What does Ness have, a jab and a grab? MKs dtilt and ftilt outrange both by a lot and are prety safe on your shield.
"MK wouldnt go offstage a lot to try and gimp you anyway, since he risks a kill on 50-60% for that. =)" Yeah, mk can force a PKT onstage hes that good.

Uffe · Aug 28, 2010

Meta Knight is better than Ness. It may not be 60:40, MK, after all the remarkable things we've seen Ness mains do against great MK mains, but it doesn't change the fact that MK still has an advantage. Even if it is a slight advantage. Grab releases aren't something I'd truly be concerned about since just about every character has one on Ness. You'll want to avoid getting grabbed, but it's nothing extreme like Marth or Charizard vs Ness.

This isn't directed agaisnt Ayoub, but I don't care if you're the best character in your country or state and seconds Meta Knight. Just because one person goes to a tournament and the other doesn't, doesn't mean that the one who goes to them knows everything. Match-up discussions are basically theories of what-ifs and can-happen. Until you get down to the game, that's where things matter the most.

Since Ness really relies on aerials, the best way for an MK to prevent taking the hits would be to block and counter. It's a great method for SHFFLers, and I'm sure it could do just the same in Brawl.

Meta Knight has a grab release on Ness. Duh. He's quicker than Ness, has better priority, can come back to the stage in more ways than one, and is just overall better. Ness has good aerials, doesn't have to get close to MK since he has no projectile, runs the risk of losing a stock early if not playing smart to avoid this, and whatever else. Again, after all the things I've seen with Ness vs Meta Knight, I'd have to say it's 55:45, MK. Especially after getting three stocked against a good MK the first match, two stocked the second match and one stocked the last match. I was starting to pick things up.

Chuee · Aug 28, 2010

No, just becuase some Ness mains have beaten top MKs doesn't mean the MU is better than 60-40.
There's plenty of characters that have terrible MU's against MK that have beaten top MKs.
Stingers beat Tearbear with ROB which is supposedly a 70-30 MU.
San beat Judge with Ike and that MU is really bad for Ike.
X beat Tyrant with Sonic and that MU isn't very good for Sonic.
You can't just say the MU is better because one player outplayed the other and had more knowledge of the MU than the other.

Ayoub · Aug 28, 2010

Chuee said:
w/e might as well reply to this.

Ayoub, you overrate Ness' strengths in the MU and don't even list anything MK has on Ness.
Ness kills mk earlier? Yeah, maybe if you can get a grab, which mk can avoid really well, at like 115-120% before he Dsmashs you or gimps you.
Avoiding gimps with good DI? lol every character in the cast can avoid gimps with good DI <.< Also try DIing a grab release.
"can kill fast with PKt2 mindgames" LOL
"His nair is a great tool to use out of sheild. Can punish a lot of things MK does on sheild." Yeah, if mk leaves his spacing at home.
"Groundgame. MK outranges Ness at this. But ness doesn't do too bad." Not too bad? What does Ness have, a jab and a grab? MKs dtilt and ftilt outrange both by a lot and are prety safe on your shield.
"MK wouldnt go offstage a lot to try and gimp you anyway, since he risks a kill on 50-60% for that. =)" Yeah, mk can force a PKT onstage hes that good.

Since you can't be serious and you being sarcastic this whole post like I child, I won't even bother discuss all the dumb mistakes you just made, lmao.

Only this: I'm sorry that you totally fail with mindgames.

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