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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #33: Jigglypuff

DMG

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I've got a pretty good Jigglypuff, I use her a lot in Low Tier teams and sometimes in Singles. Low tier teams her biggest issues are Samus and Ike IMO. Ike is annoying to approach, and mistakes against him really hurt. Your DI better be spot on for the inevitable that you run into. Samus is, well just Samus. You can threaten her offstage, onstage she is pretty annoying as well. Everyone else in Low Tier teams either feels evenish or in her favor (including Bowser and Ness, Bowser mostly if you get him airborne he is screwed.)

In Singles, it's a different matter. Matches become a lot tighter as she doesn't get a partner that can setup for her. Being forced to approach more makes it harder for her to beat the opponent.

Regular singles, I rarely use her there, but she's obvious low tier material. The 1 exception is if there is no LGL against her. She can plank her way to somewhere in Mid Tier (probably near the bottom) I think.
 

TKD

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Jigglypuff has a fine recovery and great grab range for a low tier character. Aerial mobility is good too, and his aerial assault is fine as long as he's safe from harm. His weight, range and priority issues are noticeable (along with imbalance of start-up vs knock-back and other things). I don't have much experience with the character, but when played very carefully, I think he can work (in low tier).
 

Red Arremer

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Definitely low tier. Bottom tier - I'm not sure if she belongs in there, I think being on the border to it is fine.

Jigglypuff is the lightest character in the game again. Just like in all other games, she dies when its shield breaks. So yea, don't shield Marth's B. =P
I'd call Jigglypuff a poor man's Wario even more so than Falcon or Sonic, because Jigglypuff is literally the pink light version of Wario. She has an amazing aerial mobility and multiple jumps that help her keeping in the air. Her aerials are really good, and can be used to approach and juggle. Pound also is a surprisingly good move.
She also has one of the best ledge games and can scrooge on a few stages.
Her grab game is solid, and her UThrow (that's the one that sends the opponent straight up, right? I forgot XD) is a good set up for juggles.
Also, all chaingrabbers have huge trouble with her because of her floatiness, except for Bowser, for whom chaingrabbing Jigglypuff is ironically among the easiest.

Unlike Wario, though, her ground game sucks balls, and she has huge trouble KOing, while she herself gets knocked out immensely fast. Her Sing sucks, and Rest has become really hard to pull off and be rewarded properly - that was handled better in Melee. If Rest would be like in Melee, I'd even say she'd be Mid Tier or close to it. She also handles shield pressure badly.
 

MetalMusicMan

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I think Jiggs is slightly better than people give her credit for. She's definitely low tier, but I think her aerials and grabs are very solid and when combined with excellent spacing and pound she can be played fairly effectively.

Mostly I think this because I played against Thinkaman a LOT when he was active here in St. Louis. He generally had above average placings from early 2008 to mid 2009 at large tournaments with OOS attendance, and at locals it wasn't odd to see him in the finals (I personally both beat him and lost to him in finals a few times back in late 2008 / mid 2009 iirc).

Future also plays Jiggs from time to time (he plays a lot of characters) and is decent with her these days-- I think Jiggs has a lot of room to work due to her gimping, off-stage game, aerial mobility, grabs, and pound.

Oh, also, she can plank quite well. That's a strength that shouldn't be ignored due to an unwarranted ledge grab rule.

I mean, she's not "good" by any means, but I think she could be better than a few of the characters who are listed above her currently.

If she was only slightly heavier, I don't think she'd be bad at all. It's just really unfortunate that her kill power was nerfed in a game where people live to 200% while she still dies around 100%. That's her main hindrance as far as I see it.

She should definitely stay pretty darned low, but I think she could possibly stand to rise 1-2 spots just due to her aerials, aerial mobility, grabs, and pound. She could also end up staying about where she is depending on a few things, though.
 

EdreesesPieces

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MMM - Jiggly can scrooage against many of the low tier characters in the game, even with the LGL. Ganondorf -Jiggs is in Jiggs favor like 70-30 on smashville because she can go around the stage, LAND by the time he can get there. If he uses down B to speed it up he commits to the other side, and Jiggs has the option to switch directions and go back to the original side. If you play gay she can really abuse slow characters on scroogable stages. This works against Bowser and DK too. With no LGL it works on almost everyone though, but with it, it still works on heavy and slow characters (DDD is good enough to overcome it with his move set though)

Also Jiggs is female (=
 

MetalMusicMan

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I know about her scrooging too. I play matches against Future fairly frequently where all he does is try to plank / scrooge my Falco or my DeDeDe. It's quite fun (agonizing) :p
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I see Jigglypuff as the best low tier. I'd like to add that her fair is a really good move, in the sense that a move is good on a good character not just good by Jigglypuff standards. It can kill pretty effectively, has surprising range and priority, does good damage, is fast in every way, can gimp... The only real downside to fair is that it gets stale!

Jigglypuff can also jab lock and DACUS. Both seem useless at a glance, but she has really clever little tricks that make use of both. For additional tricks, she can make use of SDI and Rest in unison to punish some multi-hit moves that are normally quite safe, including Mach Tornado. There's some "advanced" stuff to find in Jigglypuff if you want to dig into her.

She's really resistant to general abuse. Her physics make her, as I recall, the only character Falco simply cannot cg at all. She flies out of everything like utilt chains even at low percentages, no chaingrabs at all work on her, she apparently has really hard timing to cg with ICs, she has no grab release problems in any sense even when odd stage geography gets involved, etc. She also has a really good recovery so she doesn't fear gimping at all. She dies early due to her weight, but there's absolutely nothing that is going to force Jigglypuff to take damage abnormally quickly or die any earlier than is usual for her.

Pound gives her a real option to circumvent nearly everything that would wall her. The move beats almost everything if timed and spaced right; she's never in a hopeless situation and can win every matchup just because this move exists.

I've also heard that Jigglypuff is a secret low tier counter to Diddy Kong. Intuitively, it makes sense seeing as if she plays like she always does, banana peels more or less lose their tripping properties, and she can afford to whiff Rest against him a surprising amount since he doesn't really do more damage with a huge window of opportunity as opposed to a small one.

Jigglypuff has a really good throw game. Her grab is quick with shockingly high range, and all of her throws do double digit damage (only character like that!). She also has a good roll that can be used to sneak in extra grabs. Landing grabs lets her refresh her fair (her pummel at max speed is slow enough to refresh a move per each hit but just barely) and puts the opponent in the air where Jigglypuff can be powerful.

And yes, she can abuse ledges and run away in general better than all the other low tiers. It only helps her.

She's low tier because she is somewhat short on basic options (she has way too many bad moves), she's super light, and things that don't care about her high priority are a really big pain for her (G&W as a whole, Wario's Bite, a few other things). Still though, I think if Jigglypuff were really pushed she would be pretty close to viable, probably just barely below the water mark.
 

T-block

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Agreeing with AA's sentiments... Jigglypuff is very underrated. I think she's better than Mario to be honest.

Her biggest weakness is the kill percent disparity she sees with most characters. She will die to KO moves very quickly, although she won't get gimped. And on the other hand, she often sees difficulty landing the kill herself. F-air is her best kill move, but it's just too good for spacing for Jiggs to be able to afford to keep it fresh. Dash attack can work... it's got decent power and a good angle, although her very slow dash speed makes it considerably less effective. Other kill moves are u-smash (DACUS), Rest, and u-tilt, but all of these are pretty hard to land.

Her aerial game is obviously very good - high mobility with good attacks. F-air is quick and powerful, and b-air has nice range as well. D-air is an amazing move as well that hits in front of her, although the hits can be SDI'd. If it trips, it combos into Rest. Her fall speed is really slow, although that isn't all bad. On one hand it gives her interesting aerial movement with that high horizontal speed. She can fit two b-airs, or a b-air n-air, in a single short hop. On the other hand, it doesn't allow her to move very well vertically, and it means her momentum cancelling isn't great.

She has a winnable, although still disadvantaged matchup against Diddy Kong. Bananas are less effective against her, and she can gimp him fairly easily. Marth, GaW, Snake, Dedede are all horrid matchups for her though.
 

Crow!

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Problem with Jiggles is that there's no reason to play her in an ordinary tournament. There is precious little (if any) Jigglypuff fanbase (honestly, fanboyism is the main reason most Link mains play Link...). In-game, Jiggly doesn't really do anything important that Kirby (who even looks about the same as Jiggly) doesn't do better. And she don't even get the "Z'omg, you're kicking butt with Falcon/Ganon/Link? That's awesome!" sort of reinforcement, either.

So, we never have and probably never will see good Jigglypuff rep, regardless of whether she's actually a bit better than the other low tiers. Jiggly is at the rock bottom in terms of actual tournament results, and unless someone good decides to pull an Ally (which I'm not sure I would consider strongly anyway...) I don't think she's going to move from there in that regard.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Jigglypuff isn't really all that similar to Kirby. Kirby just has completely different mobility, and it's totally character defining. The character she's most similar to is Wario, and even then, there are a lot of very significant differences. You are right that she has weak fandom and will likely never see a lot of play, but that shouldn't influence her spot on the tier list. With low tiers especially, we should be ranking them based on how well they could do if someone were stubborn and insisted on playing them. Luckily, we can throw out names using every character in this game, even the bad ones. Our scene is big enough!

Speaking of Thinkaman, he has gone on lengthy explanations privately about that fair and freshness and how one of the most defining things about a good Jigglypuff player is managing that and about what tools Jigglypuff has to refresh her moves and such. She can have her fair fresh when she needs it without crippling herself, but she has to actively work during her entire game to make sure that happens. In that way, she has to worry more about stale moves than any other character in the entire cast. T-Block, I'm not sure you're giving Jigglypuff players enough credit; they can and do rely on fair for kills. In terms of landing kills, I've also been informed that Jigglypuff has traps where perfectly timed dairs can set up for jab locks which combo into either Rest or DACUS. I'm kinda hazy on the exact details and don't think it's really been whipped out in tournament much, but it exists. She also is strong at gimping; I don't think Jigglypuff is especially poorly off in terms of scoring kills, especially among low tiers.
 

T-block

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I'm speaking from my own experience - in most matchups, f-air is the ideal move in too many situations for it to be fresh by the time your opponent is at kill percents. Of course, my Jigglypuff is pretty mediocre, although I do play her a lot. What Thinkaman is saying makes sense, and I'll try to think more about that next time I play. I hope he puts together a post when this discussion is released.
 

DMG

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Yeah you can do the regular Dair to rest regardless of whether it trips, and it combos. If it trips, you can do about anything.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I think she's really bad. Mobility is nice, but unless she's fighting someone with no range, she's just gonna get punished for doing anything. No KO options, and really nothing safe to poke shields with if the opponent is smart about position. I think she might be worse than Ganondorf on average, but without an LGL, I guess she's a little better.
 

EdreesesPieces

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Just as Reflex said, anyone who has more range than her (lots of people) and is heavier than her (everyone) can just play a hit trading game. take a jiggs hit, then hit right back with a longer ranged aerial. Just smash DI her attacks towards her (even if they are single hit attacks smash DIing DOES affect knockback) and you will be closer when hitstun ends and you can counter with one of your own. Her range is just too terrible. Fair is the only move with any sort of range.
 

T-block

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D-air is nice on shields... there's also the super slick option of pivot jump air dodge through them and grab when you land. I've never really had a problem with anyone shield camping my Jiggs.
 

T-block

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Oh yeah, Pound eats shields. It's one of those moves that does extra shield damage (it has a value of 20, compared to Shield Breaker's 40, using Michael Hey's scale). It's not safe on shield or anything, but it's not something your opponent wants to be shielding too often.
 

T-block

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I guess it'd be easy enough to run from Jigglypuff until your shield regens. It takes a pretty significant chunk out of your shield though.
 

Mikey Lenetia

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Well, that's just it. If Jigglypuff does use Pound on shield, she's in the move animation for so long that she'll trade half of their shield with taking a hit unless the person panics. This most commonly is NOT a good trade for her due to her light weight. Also, anyone with disjoint can give her fits, and only somewhat on projectiles due to her aerial mobility. It's somewhat likely, too, that someone can powershield it because of the notable start-up lag it has, and she doesn't have very many, if any, safe approaches on shield. Having an entire game based around how fresh one move is(fair) that also happens to be one of your best pokes doesn't bode well for her, either. Yes, she can refresh her moves, but that's if someone actually lets her in and can't do a thing about it.

How is her own OoS game, by the way? I'm not entirely sure on it, though something tells me it's most likely one of the better ones out of low-tier. There's obviously Rest, but would that be viable against attacks that are spaced well, or just ones that people got too greedy with?
 

T-block

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I think I was misunderstood - obviously you're not going to be using Pound on shields like it's Shield Breaker. All I'm saying is that with it's shield-eating properties, combined with d-air and grabs, your opponent isn't really encouraged to camp in his shield like they are against ZSS or Lucas.

Her OoS game is... not great. Rest OoS doesn't really work. U-smash doesn't hit in front of her until frame 18. OoS d-air is probably her best option.
 

The Real Inferno

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I use pound like shield breaker. I usually skim over shield with Dair as I pass by until I it's low enough to get a shield break out of it. You'd be surprised how often people fall for that.
 

Pierce7d

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Jiggs . . . lol.

I play a bit of Jiggs myself. I stopped playing her as much, because I started to prefer Zelda. Jiggs suffers from a ground game, but you basically spend the whole match waiting for whiffs/openings, and making hard reads.

Jiggs lives longer than Zelda because even though she's stupidly light, she recovers well. However, not really having reliable kills HURTS. With Zelda, I at least got rewarded for making hard reads. Once your opponent learns how to DI against Jiggs, it's HARD.

My Fair is always fresh. Between Nair, Bair, and Pound, I typically don't use Fair until I need it. Dash Attack is a godly move.

Typically, I go for rest as frequently as possible, because against skilled opponents, Jiggs doesn't win unless you make amazing reads and get a huge reward. Getting that rest on a read and killing at 70% is amazing, and almost necessary. However, looking for this hard read and executing is pretty difficult. It's not too bad with practice though.

Jiggs gets air-released straight up like Wario, but higher. Falco MIGHT have guaranteed Uair on her (I get it most of the time) and I'm pretty sure Fox does. LOL. Uthrow-Uair lives ON!!!!
 

A2ZOMG

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I think Jiggs gets the lead pretty easily against most characters since she's not that easy to wall, which imo makes her a worse matchup for Ganon than Wario (this is factoring the chaingrab. My point is that Ganon actually has tools to wall Wario's approach, but Jiggs in comparison is a much harder character to wall). She's very difficult to retreat against safely against due to her insane aerial speed, and after a lead, she's also very difficult to pin down due to said mobility being more than enough to legitimately bait most types of approaches. A Jigglypuff that doesn't feel the need to take unnecessary risks and has a good eye for staying in range to punish whiffs I believe can do well in most matchups. Well, she has too much trouble baiting and walling G&W as far as I know, but as I recall her matchup against Diddy Kong is quite good.

And if you're using Pound as shield pressure, you're using it wrong unless their shield is about ready to break. It's a GOOD move, not for shield pressure, but for breaking various forms of zoning/walls and option limiting defenses, especially spotdodge. Which as I recall, makes it similar in practical use to Marth's shieldbreaker LOL.
 

Laem

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Jiggs gets air-released straight up like Wario, but higher. Falco MIGHT have guaranteed Uair on her (I get it most of the time) and I'm pretty sure Fox does. LOL. Uthrow-Uair lives ON!!!!
not to mention bowser has GR upair lol
 

Poltergust

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Jiggs gets air-released straight up like Wario, but higher. Falco MIGHT have guaranteed Uair on her (I get it most of the time) and I'm pretty sure Fox does. LOL. Uthrow-Uair lives ON!!!!
Bowser and Yoshi also get free u-airs on her.

EDIT: Darn it, got ninja'd on Bowser. =(


:069:
 

Spelt

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Nobody has brought up utilt yet. :c i'm in love with jigglypuff's utilt.
 

*JuriHan*

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Nobody has brought up utilt yet. :c i'm in love with jigglypuff's utilt.
outclassed almost 100% by kirby's u-tilt. It can kill light character, but the range is such utter **** good luck landing it. Startup isnt anything special either =/
 

Mota

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Agreed Jiggs is definitely low tier. Great aerials but it's all Jiggs got, after a while it get very predictable.
Killing is difficult with only a perfectly landed Fair the best option.
 

Dre89

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I thought rising pound was supposed to be safe on a lot of shields.
 

T-block

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Yeah u-tilt needs more range. It's stupid hard to land.

Rising Pound is safer in that you probably won't get grabbed, but most characters will still be able to hit you with something OoS, with the amount of cooldown that Pound has. It might be safe on...Yoshi's shield.
 

A2ZOMG

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I think Falcon probably beats Jiggs, but that's just a really weird matchup, and doesn't really represent what Jiggs is able to do against most characters. As a matter of a fact, a number of people are saying Falcon beats Wario as well (including Wario mains).

But Jiggs otherwise >>> Falcon and most other low tiers imo. If people played a lot gayer with this character, I would expect her to make it to lower mid tier.
 

-LzR-

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Well Jiggly is also versatile, she does well on several stages which is a great advantage to other crappy characters.
 

rm88

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My Fair is always fresh. Between Nair, Bair, and Pound, I typically don't use Fair until I need it. Dash Attack is a godly move.
Same, I never use Fair unless I really have to. It's a surprisingly great move against Snake (not that you should use her against Snake...), since Jiggs doesn't have problems chasing him when he's recovering from above, it leads to relatively early kills. Same with her dash, it's better to keep it fresh and it becomes a pretty reliable KO move, even if it becomes predictable.

I personally love Jigglypuff. Sure, it's a bad character, but she has so many unique qualities that, in my opinion, make her better than several characters above her on the current tier list. I think she's not abysmal against DK and Toon Link, but it really depends on how much Jiggs experience the other player has.

(Carefully) spamming Dair is sometimes a good idea, it racks up damage decently and can lead to Dair>Rest. I must admit I practically never use rest, but it's an option nonetheless. Also, Nair is freaking awesome. Most people simply don't expect it to last that long, and it clashes with a lot of attacks.
 
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