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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #35: Link

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
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Vienna


Link's better than I thought.
He's definitely Bottom 5. I'm also rather sure he's right on the spot currently. But I learned a lot of stuff about him since the last tier list, and he definitely is better than I thought he was.

Link's biggest merit is his sword. He also has a ZAir and projectiles, but they're nowhere as good as Samus'.
Link can put out damage rather well and has quite a few kill moves. And he can approach and force approaches, hell, if he uses his stuff right, he literally can pull his opponent towards himself with the gale boomerang.

That said, he struggles in pretty much everything else. Especially in the air. I usually jokingly say that Link doesn't need aerials because he can't jump and that they would not help him at all offstage. This pretty much still is true. His aerials are okay when they hit, but they are all delayed and have awkward hitboxes. The only useful one is the one which momentum cancels well... uh, BAir I think it was? I'm not sure, sorry. Haven't played Link in a while.

His recovery sucks despite the momentum cancelling. It's a bit better than Ganondorf's (ZAir, Up B is not as easy to gimp), but it's still one of the worst in the game. He even has trouble against edgeguarding despite his arsenal of projectiles, because his fallspeed is so high that when he finishes tossing his projectile, he's already almost dead. Same goes pretty much for his aerials, lol.
He also has pretty much no mobility, it's almost as bad as Zelda's. And his moves are pretty slow to hit, as well. So yea. You can get into him, smack him, run away, and he can't do **** about it. Hell, I bet almost everyone can aircamp Link (okay, I'm sarcastic here <.<).

Just like pretty much every user of a tether grab, Link's grab game sucks, his throws are garbage. :<
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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Link is underrated. Here in Midwest-West, we all have Link experience thanks to Legan. The guy is obviously low tier, but I think he's one of the somewhat better low tiers and generally has his problems exaggerated.

Yes, his recovery is really, really bad. He's pretty much dead if you get him off-stage and not right next to the ledge. I don't think that's really that crippling of a weakness; it's a very fair trade for being effective on-stage.

Link has a projectile game that is all around as good as Toon Link's and clearly way better than Samus's. Samus has a very slow Charge Shot, very situational Morph Ball bombs, and missiles which are pretty good but more or less limited to being the only projectile out when used since Samus just can't get multiple projectiles out quickly. I can very easily dodge Samus's projectiles indefinitely on the defense since she can never put out real parallel threats; the closest she can do is shoot a homing missile and then go to zair me. I can also navigate her "projectile wall" really easily because of the fact that there's never much stuff out. Most of the time, it's about as easy as jumping over it. Link can juggle a few bombs at once if he wants to, can use the Gale Boomerang returning simultaneous with another projectile, and arrows are just about as good at controlling space as missiles. His projectiles cover huge varieties of angles and can be used together in huge numbers of ways. If most of the cast tries to just sit back from Link and not do anything, Link can and will set up projectile traps that are very hard to avoid unscathed. Getting near a defensive Link is a pain because his projectile can easily hit just about anywhere without Link having to put himself in compromising positions to do it. I'm really confused at his projectile game being compared to Samus's as anything but a massive advantage to Link in comparison.

Link's normal attacks are all very disjointed with pretty good range. If Link predicts what the other guy is going to do, it's pretty likely he can flat out beat their attack just with his disjoints. His most notable normal moves IMO are ftilt, uair, and dair. Ftilt is all around a pretty great move that he primarily likes because it can finish stocks reasonably, but the way it sweeps over and hits so much space is really nice too. Uair beats almost everything, hits hard, and making coming down on Link just not work, something that really helps him out. Dair is a high risk high reward juggle escape. It plays out well when combined with his high fall speed and further potential to throw bombs downward; Link does not get juggled very often at all which is much different from most other low tiers. Dair can also be used as a punish for early kills which is again risky, but I'd prefer having risky options to not having options. Most of his normal moves are at least passable though and do work for Link.

I should also point out that Link can jab lock and has a few tricks to set up for it. Actually his jab is pretty respectable all around, not super notable but not bad either (the range is pretty nice!). It's a really nice tool. He also has a pretty big and practical DACUS which helps him out quite a bit.

Link's tether attack isn't quite as good as Samus's, but it's better than Toon Link's and still overall a very good tool. It's a pretty big deal.

I think tether grabs are generally misunderstood. For fast utility, Link's grab offers him nothing. For punishing spaced attacks on shield, it's pretty good. If you attack Link's shield and are relying on shield pushback and spacing to make it safe, you have to ensure way more space than against most of the cast. It's a shame all three of his grabs are more or less guaranteed to be punished if he whiffs them, but I still don't think his grab is really "bad" so much as "good for different things".

I'm not trying to say Link is "good"; his exploitabiity both off-stage and in some chaingrab/"combo" situations is pretty terrible, and his overall moveset has a mediocre at best speed to power ratio. Still though, he seems intuitively to be one of the better low tiers; he has some legitimately really good stuff about him to offset his weaknesses. He has several things he can do that are threats and force the opposing high tier to respond specifically and play around it; I value that very highly.
 

ShadowLink84

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Link's biggest merit is his sword. He also has a ZAir and projectiles, but they're nowhere as good as Samus'.
False.
Samus' projectiles<Link's projectiles.
Bombs, boomerang and arrows are faster and can be used one after the other.
He can als smash while holding a bomb and even has a pseudo glide toss via usmash cancel.

Samus' missiles can be hit out of the air with NO harm to the attacker even if there is no disjoint to the attack.
Bombs are situational.
Charge shot is slow and doesnt kill as early as it used to.
Zair is the only thing she has that outdoes Link, and Link's puts the opponent in a bad position for a Fsmash.
That said, he struggles in pretty much everything else. Especially in the air. I usually jokingly say that Link doesn't need aerials because he can't jump and that they would not help him at all offstage. This pretty much still is true. His aerials are okay when they hit, but they are all delayed and have awkward hitboxes. The only useful one is the one which momentum cancels well... uh, BAir I think it was? I'm not sure, sorry. Haven't played Link in a while.
Bair is the best one to start the momentum canceling.
His aerials are somewhat decent in speed.
Nair is 6 frames I believe and Bair is 5.
Uair 10 frames
Dair 9 frames
All of them have rather good priority

Problem is as you mentioned, his jumping ability SUCKS, and he takes a long time to jump from the ground.
His recovery sucks despite the momentum cancelling. It's a bit better than Ganondorf's (ZAir, Up B is not as easy to gimp), but it's still one of the worst in the game. He even has trouble against edgeguarding despite his arsenal of projectiles, because his fallspeed is so high that when he finishes tossing his projectile, he's already almost dead. Same goes pretty much for his aerials, lol.
Ugh I think he has top 5 for fall speed and is in the bottom 5 for horizontal aerial speed. He sucks int he air.

He also has pretty much no mobility, it's almost as bad as Zelda's. And his moves are pretty slow to hit, as well. So yea. You can get into him, smack him, run away, and he can't do **** about it. Hell, I bet almost everyone can aircamp Link (okay, I'm sarcastic here <.<).

Just like pretty much every user of a tether grab, Link's grab game sucks, his throws are garbage. :<
Uair is the only feasible one truth be told.
his fastest ground attack his his Utilt, while his jab is 6.
Of course when Link lands a hit it is pretty decent damage, but he just does so poorly when the opponent is close that much of his damage stems from projectiles and Zair.
Killing is also an issue because he has almost NO strings, he has NO guaranteed setups.

Its rather depressing.

He is a low tier character, he is not as bad as Zelda nor Ganon, and I certainly believe him to be a better character than Captain Falcon as well.
 

Red Arremer

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big paragraph essentially saying Link's projectiles > Samus' projectiles
Honestly, I've played both characters, and while Links projectiles are good, I found Samus' more useful. Maybe it's just because I know Samus way better than Link, but to me it seemed much easier to me to create a wall of spam with Samus' missiles and charge shot with added ZAirs, than it did with Link.
Granted, her bombs don't have the item status and power Link's have, but her bomb jump works before almost kill %, and they definitely aren't as situational as you make them out to be.

That said, that is all just my personal experience with playing these 2 characters, and I might be wrong.
 

The Real Inferno

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Samus makes a bigger wall (you can get 2 missiles and a zair on the screen at once from the ledge, it's pretty intimidating to look at....until you know what you're doing,), but Link's is much more effective (boomerang and arrows are less of a size threat, but more useful in application concerning their speed and other applications) in the long run than Samus' is. He gets more out of it than she does. Bomb combos can set up for many things, not the least of which is a footstool to jab lock to Fsmash, which is always nice to have. Link doesn't have an amazing camp game due to the simple fact that he doesn't have the mobility to abuse it unlike Toon Link who can hop all around the **** stage all day. His camp is effective in forcing approaches which is exactly what he needs with his moveset as he has a moveset specifically GEARED toward punishing poor approach choices and making critical reads. Being exceedingly aggressive with Link isn't exactly recommended unless you know you can get away with it on the character/player.

Just gonna go over some random stuff as it occurs to me, so forgive the terrible structure.

Link really wants to play it safe in the beginning of the match as he is likely to either die VERY early due to his terrible recovery or live FOREVER due to his weight. A Link's main goal in this regard is to protect themselves from low knockback at the ledge at all costs until their percent is high enough to start recovering much higher. He doesn't have the worst ledge options ever, but they aren't exactly stellar. His tether is really the best thing about him here. Link has some deceptively large hitboxes and a pretty good shield pressure game (especially for someone in low tier). Link tends to lean toward a slow and patient style of gameplay that drags matches out, which leaves him naturally susceptible to characters that can outcamp/run away from everything he has. some characters' planking is absolutely bull**** against him and can be a game winner. His projectiles can help some in this regard, but the more frame specific plankers/characters capable of scrooging don't really care about it at all. What is Link supposed to do when Pit or ROB are on the ledge? If he tries to go offstage it could be suicide. projectiles get reflected by Pit and both can just fly under the stage is he plans to try and catch them there with a bomb.

I don't feel like he's the second worst in the game anymore (I don't think he ever should have been). He has so many good tools for a low tier, it feels almost criminal to have him down there. Maybe move up two spots, switch places with whoever would be shunted down in his place. Most of the good Links have left the character/quit the game though and the character has fallen into disrepair because of it. Legan is the only Link I can recall right off the top of my head right now. I miss ArkiveZero. I guess you could say with his current metagame, he really is deserving of his current tier spot, but if you ask me he's just waiting for a little life to be injected back into him.
 

MetalMusicMan

Sleepwalk our lives away.
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Link is underrated. Here in Midwest-West, we all have Link experience thanks to Legan. The guy is obviously low tier, but I think he's one of the somewhat better low tiers and generally has his problems exaggerated.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Of course, Legan is the kind of person who will say that "Link is terrible, but I succeed because I'm Legan and I need to handicap myself to keep from ****** people too hard" lmfao <3 I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's Legan for you and it's of course hilarious.

I team with Legan quite frequently and I Smash with him and the rest of the STL crew once a week at my apartment. I would say that I know Link about as well as I possibly could without actually venturing to main him myself.

Link is unquestionably under-rated. He's "bad" and should remain low tier, but he is probably one of the better TRUE low tiers. The problem is that he has a ridiculously high learning curve and since he's a low tier, there's really no incentive to learn it. Learning all of Link's nuances will make your skills with the character improve immensely, but you could spend far less time learning a mid or high tier character and get better results.

Assuming we look at Link "at the top of his game" though, he's one of the better low-tiers. He has so many tools and projectiles and numerous ways to setup foot stools, jab locks, etc. and many of those foot stool setups can end in a d-air which has great kill power.

He's extremely difficult to kill (minus gimping) due to being very heavy and having wonderful momentum canceling along with the second fastest fast-fall in the game.

He's really good at mid-range to long range and can play a fair camp game with his projectiles and hookshot. He's actually surprisingly hard to grab if played correctly; he's sort of like Snake in that he can bomb-hold to avoid being chain grabbed by Falco, actually.


The obvious weaknesses are his terrible recovery and lack of "out of the box" quick/good moves. He's just too slow out of the box-- learning his advanced tactics really speeds him up, but if you put him in the right situations, you will be able to punish him and keep him from moving around too much anyway.



He's unquestionably low tier and near the very bottom, but when played correctly he's definitely better than Bowser, Captain Falcon and possibly Mario and or Jiggs, in my opinion. The problem is just that almost no one has any reason to take the time to actually play him correctly.
 

Crow!

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The top tournament performer right now, according to Ankoku's data, is Scabe, who Shaya probably knows better than I do. Blubba_Pinecone is probably the in truth tournament king, but his tournaments' results don't get reported - he doesn't care too much, either, citing "lolregion" as the primary reason for his success.

In theory, if you are playing against a Link, and you get hit with a bomb while at low-mid to mid-high percents while Link is above you, or if you get footstooled when Link has a bomb in hand, you should be taking ~40-60% damage, last hit of which is a sweet-timed DAir. In practice, Legan's pretty much the only player to do this with any sort of regularity, and even he definitely doesn't do it all the time.

Link's moveset is set up to give you many ways to outplay your opponent - boomerang and bomb hang around and set up traps, ZAir and grab are typically longer range than anything your opponent has, many disjoint attacks, even some unique ways to slide (I'm a fan of using either smooth boots or pivot boosting slide with a shield - up-B OoS is legit when a slide throws off their spacing). The problem, though, is that the reward for outplaying the opponent is so much smaller, underutilized jab locks aside. Compare invincibombing / bomb shielding with a Snake grenade drop. Compare throwing into a bomb to hitting with a banana and then grabbing. Compare getting hit by a Boomerang to getting hit by an Aura sphere. Unless there's a sword involved, Link just is not going to be dishing out that much damage per successful exchange.


Blubba's well known among Link mains for being good at recovering. Link's recovery is indeed weak and will probably consistently get him dead early in a few matchups. But only a few. For the rest, between boomerang, airdodge >> ZAir, bomb tricks if one was pulled previously, a Link recovering high has the ability to get back to stage provided he doesn't get read consistently - and if you're getting outplayed that hard, you're going to be losing on the stage, too, so who cares about the offstage game?

The real problem is when Link is forced to recover low, and doesn't have to extra space to screw around. But in theory, this should rarely happen - only if you hit with a very horizontal or semi-spike attack while high in the air. If on the ground, almost any attack able to hit you at a low enough angle to force you to recover low be should instead be whiplashed (SDI/DI into the ground, ZAir the ledge as you fly by it). But again, too few Link mains do this in practice. Anonano was presumably unusually good at this, but I never saw vids of it.


As for the regular tug and pull of battle, Link can keep up with the jonses as long as his opponent doesn't get inside his comfort zone - Link's attacks are all quite reasonable given their disjointedness and power, he just doesn't have any particularly good GTFO options, given his slow jump and frame 7 jab / frame 12 grab. Link has one of the great spotdodges frame-wise, but he doesn't have the sorts of moves which are the best to use immediately out of one.

Also bad news for Link is if he must do the approaching. Low mobility does not a good offensive character make, so that Sasook (currently heading the Link community in Deva's absence) has gone so far as to say that the Falco matchup might be 0-100 if Falco plays 100% gay and ever gets a lead. (Oddly enough, Link mains get excited if we see Falco looking for the chaingrab - we know how to deal with that.)


So, as long as Link's opponent isn't:
Too good at gimping (MK, D3)
Too fast given his/her size (for instance, Marth is much less of a problem than Pikachu here)
Too good at projectile spam

Link will do fine. Famously, Snake doesn't fit any of those categories at all and is among Link's "easiest" matchups.


Where does this leave Link? He's a character who very often has an uphill battle in front of him. He has what it takes to let you consistently win most matchups if you outplay your opponent, which is more than can be said of more linear low / bottom tier characters, who generally depend on the opponent blundering in some embarassingly foolish way. But when faced with a superior or equally skilled opponent, Link's weakness will usually do more to influence the outcome of the fight than will his strengths.
 

Pierce7d

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Well, Link suffers similarly to Mario here, in that hitting his shield is unfairly safe. He's not as bad as Mario in this aspect, because Link can grab things from quite the range, and Zair OOS. Additionally, Usmash and UpB OOS are not bad options in most cases. Unfortunately, shield drop jab is a whopping 14 frames, shield grab is 12, and I'm pretty sure Link's jump start is slow, as are his aerials sans Zair, so that limits his response options tremendously. Marth can do a perfect Fair (untippered) to Dtilt and it's safe on Link's shield, where as most characters could Usmash, Grab, or even drop Jab before a Dtilt.

Additionally, despite Link's massive range, the start-up on his moves is not your friend. Characters that also have range that outspeed him are a problem. Dair is an excellent response option, but it's horrible punishable, and link is very weak horizontally when compared to most of the cast, if he's on the defensive. His Spot-dodge helps his defensive game a lot, but it would be far superior if he actually had fast options to capitalize.

Link isn't exactly bad at killing, but for the force of his attacks, you'd be surprised at how lightly they hit you. Link can capitalize well off of a read though, and shouldn't have real issues killing, especially if Dair is fresh. His Dacus also helps him travel quite a distance, and can K.O. lighter characters around 140 if it's fresh.
 

quirkynature

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His Dacus also helps him travel quite a distance, and can K.O. lighter characters around 140 if it's fresh.
I haven't been to any official tourneys, I ain't a BBRM, I play with a Wiimote and I'm not that great a Link but I'll still like to point this out:

DACUS helps approaches, given, but it's fairly easy to DI out of. Not to mention the ending lag is horrendous. To be quite honest, there are only a few matches I've seen that have Link using DACUS. Most just Z-air to approach. Although, since a lot of Links don't use U-smash all that much, it's killing power stays fresh, so that's not an issue.
 

Huggles828

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DACUS can be nice and unpredictable but it's a fairly unsafe option if it fails and often Link can't afford to play unsafe.

Link's OoS options are pretty awful; his fastest option is Usmash OoS (10 frames) which isn't a great move anyway, and grounded B up, which is laggy. I find his best option when the opponent is up close and I'm shielding is to try to reset the spacing rather than try to punish.

Link does have a guaranteed setup to both a jablock, which can lead to a lot of things, and to a guaranteed dair, in the bombstool (not sure if anyone mentioned this but someone mentioned he had no guaranteed setups?) Throw a bomb down at opponent, footstool, either dair them or FFnair > jabcancel. Outside of this, Link doesn't have many guaranteed setups though.

Link's nair, bair, and even his fair autocancel out of a short hop. Uair autocancels out of a full hop. Dair will even autocancel if it's fullhopped off a platform or if you full hop it and bounce off someone's shield; most people don't see an autocanceled dair coming.

Some of the top Links I'd recommend watching if y'all are interested are Legan, KirinBlaze, Blubba Pinecone, Scabe, and Deva (Deva's really good but good luck finding many videos of him).
 

A2ZOMG

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U-smash out of shield is very underused imo. It covers both sides and starts up reasonably fast and does good damage.
 

Huggles828

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U-smash out of shield is very underused imo. It covers both sides and starts up reasonably fast and does good damage.
It's definitely a useful option, but its range is not as great horizontally as you might think, and it won't hit shorter characters like Squirtle, Kirby, or MK if they're next to you. Also, if you miss, you're giving an opponent a great setup due to the long duration of the move and ending lag. Definitely useful, especially against taller or slower characters, but it can be dangerous.


Pictures stolen from the great Crow himself, haha.
 

A2ZOMG

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At the very least I would U-smash out of shield if I believe my opponent is attempting an aerial crossover. And generally I would use it in place of shieldgrabbing in close range especially if my opponent likes to spotdodge.
 

Luxor

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Frame data threads o.0
FH Nair OoS is frame 14 and is hard to punish. I'd try that or frame 11 Spin Attack, which is actually fast enough to punish most tilts/jabs/almost all smashes OoS. Although that's just coming from a researcher's perspective, take it with a grain of salt since I'm no Link main.

Oh copypaste OoS options
[collapse=OoS Options]Remember, shield drop is 7 frames. Taking that and 7 frames of jump lag into account, we have Link's OoS options:

Frames_Move
8 Bomb Throw (well, technically 7, but the bomb starts behind Link and only hits someone right in front of him frame 8. For someone farther away it could be frame 9 or 10)
10 Usmash
11 Spin Attack
12 Grab
13 Bair
14 Nair
14 Jab
15 Utilt
15 Dash Attack
16 Dsmash
18 Uair
18 DACUS
20 Dtilt
21 Buffered Dash Grab
21 Fair
21 Dair
22 Ftilt
22 Fsmash

Using these is easy as pie; however, first you need the frame advantage of something hitting your shield. Since we have Link's own frame advantages here in this thread, let’s use him as an example. Other character’s frame advantage can be found in their respective frame data threads.

What if a ditto Link Dtilted your shield? Looking in this thread, you see Dtilt has an advantage of -15 on block. That negative number is for the hitter- for you, the hittee/hitted, that's 15 frames to do anything! You can do anything on this chart with a number less than or equal to 15. If he doesn't buffer shield, you could even Dsmash him! Obviously, not all OoS options work just because of the frame data- if he Dtilted you from behind, obviously you couldn't grab him. Go forth and punish OoS!
[/collapse]
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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AA doesnt know much about Samus. I just wanna get that out there so others dont start to think he knows what hes sayin when it comes to her
 

AfroTwist ShadowPie

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Unlike the youtube scrubs you regurarly play, a Link main that knows what he/she's doing isn't going to use both the jumps and fly right into your gimp move after being knocked offstage.

YES YOU.
 

Rizen

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What is this thread? Another forum's discussion?

A few things:
Link's projectiles>Samus'
Samus uses projectiles more as attacks, Link uses them as spacing tools. There's a big difference, you can't judge Link's range game in the same way you judge Samus'. Link needs projectiles for defense and letting him land a hit because he's so easy to shield and can't fight up close. Samus is better because she doesn't get gimped.

Link's OoS is terrible. Usmash and the opponent dodge left or right or shields and they get a free hit, Utilt is better even if it can't technically be done OoS. Spin attacks punish spot dodges but if they're shielded/avoided Link will be punished. Jumping to an attack/escape or Dsmash are usually the best options. Anything Link does has a frame disadvantage. His roll dodges are bad too and grab is super easy to dodge and laggy. Link's OoS anything<most grabs; prevention is Link's best bet.

Link IS underrated. A big reason is practically nobody plays him. Link's extremely hard to learn, it takes at least 8 months, and he has 1 good MU vs Ganon. Most people don't care that much.
Another reason is gimping Link's abysmal recovery. It's true that Link's recovery is bad so Link players use other methods like DI, spamming, and claw shot mind games. Link's made to be punished; I've lived well over 200%. The Link player must have great momentum canceling and recovery strategy because a tap from peach's turnip off stage=death even at low %s.
Link's biggest flaw is his lag. Most of the time Link can't simply land a power hit because easy shielding. Link has to be creative with close attacks and range attacks.
Bottom line is Link has to work very hard to do simple things and always be aware of spacing. Having weaknesses of lag, bad OoS, bad grab, easy to CG and juggle, and a short momentum driven recovery make him difficult to use. Link is under represented and great for a low tier but he won't climb much higher.
 

Scabe

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I've started using Usmash OoS, it's so good.

And when I have a bomb in hand, I'd throw the bomb down to the ground OoS which is really good for clearing up space. I'll get some vids up soon.
 

lordhelmet

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I think Link is good where he is lol, I don't see him better than anyone other than Ganon. Just my opinion don't hate on my plz.

Also, SDI up smash and punish Link. It's sooo slow.
 

IYM!

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this &quot;!&quot; is part of my nick (Chile)
Link is a good, character, his only big weakness is his recovery.

he have a very good range, have 3 diferent types of projecties
1) the boomerang: this item have a huge hit box, and his usefull for keep away our oponent, and the wind properties give us interesting options

2) arrows: have many diferents angles, and his full charge shoot is realy fast, is good for spacing and sometimes, good for gimp

3) Bombs: the best projectile than Link have, this item have infinites uses, like, damage rating, defencive move, for spacing, for kill, for mind tricks, etc.

*Bonus*) Zair: this isnt a projectile, but combine perfectly with our projectiles. we must be proud of have one of the two best Zair of the game, our Zair have better priority tham Samus Zair, is faster and is esier hit small characters with it. a i forgot,this move have 2 hits

Link have balanced moves, in kill power and DPS terms, maybe this can be some slow, but his priority and range can conpence this weakness

our priority is good, Nair eat a lot of moves, is fast, and hve a good kill power. the rest of our air moves are usefull for spacing and kill.

Link have bad recovery, but his exelent DI compence that weakness, a good Link always will live until the 200%.

Link, isnt a bottom tier Character, but sadly isnt a medium tier character, i think than, he must be in a better place in the next tier list
 
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