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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #36: Ganondorf
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TheTantalus
Smash Hero
Ganondorf, by far is the worst character or among the top 3 in worst (those in my mind being yoshi, himself, and bowser)
He's probably better than bowser though. He has tons of ground game options and power, but low priority and gets gimped by almost every character in this game, which practically makes him useless. No one has proven ganon can do well. At all. The best was us watching verm destroy a metaknight on the apex projector. But verm didn't even make it to bracket.
He's probably better than bowser though. He has tons of ground game options and power, but low priority and gets gimped by almost every character in this game, which practically makes him useless. No one has proven ganon can do well. At all. The best was us watching verm destroy a metaknight on the apex projector. But verm didn't even make it to bracket.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
@Tantalus:
Your post makes no sense.
"Ganondorf is by far the worst character, but he's better than Bowser."
Wut?
Your post makes no sense.
"Ganondorf is by far the worst character, but he's better than Bowser."
Wut?
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Poor Ganon. A good ganon can really wreck some players, and he has some decent tricks on various counterpicks (lol Norfair). He can rack up damage off tech chasing from many of his moves, but the character almost always has to rely on captilizing on big mistakes or reading the opponent to get kills. Playing smart can crush Ganondorf, making him clearly a contender for bottom tier right away. Add onto that a recovery that makes me want to cry. Most characters can gimp him so easily that it just isn't even funny at all. Side B gives him a little variation but is terribly unsafe when a not in the lead by stock since much like Ike's side B, you can just jump into it, though this will kill you as well. When he's on his last stock though and you're on your second, what's the harm? Free win. You know what would make Ganon awesome? A ****ing projectile so he doesn't have to approach. He's so unsafe on shield. I think it might have been Hylian who said counterpicking shield against Ganondorf is a viable strategy (at least he has side b, but it's slow enough to react to).
The best thing about Taker is having an awesome combo on Diddy with a banana (and a decent few options to gimp Diddy too). Sourspot Uair off the ledge is good for Ganon in several matches. I'm also told that using tilt stick opens up some more Dair options on the ledge by preventing fast falling with it automatically. Overall, I actually believe Ganon to not be the worst character in the game, and I think very few people agree with me on that. Bottom tier definitely, but probably second worst to me. He remains pretty popular despite his tier placement, and every region seems to have that one Ganon player that is actually pretty scare, if not exactly successful in tournament. At least he outplaces a few other low tiers, but it's heavily debatable if this is due entirely to his popularity or skill his ability to place well in some instances.
The best thing about Taker is having an awesome combo on Diddy with a banana (and a decent few options to gimp Diddy too). Sourspot Uair off the ledge is good for Ganon in several matches. I'm also told that using tilt stick opens up some more Dair options on the ledge by preventing fast falling with it automatically. Overall, I actually believe Ganon to not be the worst character in the game, and I think very few people agree with me on that. Bottom tier definitely, but probably second worst to me. He remains pretty popular despite his tier placement, and every region seems to have that one Ganon player that is actually pretty scare, if not exactly successful in tournament. At least he outplaces a few other low tiers, but it's heavily debatable if this is due entirely to his popularity or skill his ability to place well in some instances.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I'm a rebel:
What Inferno said sums pretty much up what Ganondorf is. I forgot who it was (Lee Harris, maybe?, but someone said that Ganondorf hits like a bus full of fat people.
He has a few interesting gimmicks, and theoretically has an infinite (so called Chain Choking, Side B-chain), but it relies on prediction of what the enemy does when getting up, and that can be difficult.
If there wasn't that coding error in Ganondorf's FAir, so it would make it autocancel, I think he'd even be far better than he is now, because with that, he'd have a solid approach. But alas, he doesn't have it.
To make things worse, his Up B is punishable on hit. So you can jump into his Up B, hit him, and thus kill him when he recovers. Side B adds to his recovery, but if he's on last stock, you just can jump into it and win anyway.
So yea. Worst character.
What Inferno said sums pretty much up what Ganondorf is. I forgot who it was (Lee Harris, maybe?, but someone said that Ganondorf hits like a bus full of fat people.
He has a few interesting gimmicks, and theoretically has an infinite (so called Chain Choking, Side B-chain), but it relies on prediction of what the enemy does when getting up, and that can be difficult.
If there wasn't that coding error in Ganondorf's FAir, so it would make it autocancel, I think he'd even be far better than he is now, because with that, he'd have a solid approach. But alas, he doesn't have it.
To make things worse, his Up B is punishable on hit. So you can jump into his Up B, hit him, and thus kill him when he recovers. Side B adds to his recovery, but if he's on last stock, you just can jump into it and win anyway.
So yea. Worst character.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Side B is only an infinite if Peach pulls out a Beam Sword and Ganon manages to get it. After the Choke, hitting them with the beam sword will force auto stand up. Otherwise, it's just a tech chase.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
As said: Theoretically, it could be an infinite, if the Ganon always predicts correctly what the opponent will do. Practically, that doesn't work.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Oh I forgot to mention. Ganon can Uair Ganon for getting caught in an UpB. He also gimps himself with the sourspot uair. Hilarious ditto.
Well, Ganondorf is currently placed better than some characters in Ankoku's characters rankings list thread. However, I guess this isn't enough for him not to be the worst in the game. Too many bad matchups against high tiers and some significant weakness. :X
There is very little to say about poor Ganondorf. He's just weak in early every area; it's almost like Ganondorf's metagame advancement is just discovering more reasons he's bad. From day one we knew the majority of his moveset was too slow to be practical and that his mobility was trash, but we later on discovered that he was subject to a bunch of devastating chaingrabs. That's really just scratching the surface, but we don't need to go deep to say he's probably the worst character in the game and definitely not tournament viable. At the very least, he's pretty cool, right?
Rajam
Smash Champion
Really bad movility plus slow moveset (jab coming out in frame 9 iirc which is his fastest move - or his forward tilt, please correct me), Ganondorf is a rewarding character only for players which are really good at reading and when the skill gap is big. In top play Ganondorf has no chance. He deserves bottom place. Being outcamped by perhaps the whole roster makes things worse too.
I really think the main reason why Ganondorf is the worst character is his movility. Just look at Wario, or even Jigglypuff in Melee. Movility is one of the most important atributes in Smash games.
I really think the main reason why Ganondorf is the worst character is his movility. Just look at Wario, or even Jigglypuff in Melee. Movility is one of the most important atributes in Smash games.
Ganondorf has no proper way to defend himself once a person gets inside (which is very easy to do because of the spotdodge/roll system, combined with Ganon's terrible mobility). Also, anyone with a projectile or the ability to move away from Ganondorf quickly makes life hell for him. I stopped playing Ganondorf ages ago when my older brother picked up Lucario.
That being said, he still has some neat/useful traits. I think his not being worst in the game is arguable.
That being said, he still has some neat/useful traits. I think his not being worst in the game is arguable.
Ganondorf's fastest move is his grab, IIRC.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
Not much to say here, unquestionably the worst character in the game. Does everyone know about how a single Ice Climber can 0-death Ganondorf? Hylian recently showed me that, so ridiculous, lol >_<
Going in to more detail, all you have to do is force him to approach, and he can do next to nothing. I think that there is a moderate amount of success to be had from choke-setups and tricking people into getting killed at like 70% from certain moves, but overall none of that is as solid as anything that any other character has.
I think that there are some players who are capable of doing good things with Ganon simply because they get good reads and he punishes big mistakes with early kills. I.e. DLA, Breezy, Twlight Prince, etc. are a few that I know of.
Mostly though, those are all solid/decent players who are doing well because of their ability to read, not because of Ganondorf. Most Ganon mains "secondary" Metaknight anyway, lol.
Bottom of the pack, unquestionably.
Going in to more detail, all you have to do is force him to approach, and he can do next to nothing. I think that there is a moderate amount of success to be had from choke-setups and tricking people into getting killed at like 70% from certain moves, but overall none of that is as solid as anything that any other character has.
I think that there are some players who are capable of doing good things with Ganon simply because they get good reads and he punishes big mistakes with early kills. I.e. DLA, Breezy, Twlight Prince, etc. are a few that I know of.
Mostly though, those are all solid/decent players who are doing well because of their ability to read, not because of Ganondorf. Most Ganon mains "secondary" Metaknight anyway, lol.
Bottom of the pack, unquestionably.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I agree with anything bad that has been said about Ganondorf.
I also love how his up-b has 0 hitstun, so you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT after he hits you with it.
That part makes him amazing(ly bad).
I also love how his up-b has 0 hitstun, so you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT after he hits you with it.
That part makes him amazing(ly bad).
What is there to say that hasn't already been said?
Poor Ganon. He has all of this tremendous power behind his attacks, and pretty much zero means of dishing it all out safely.
The terrible recovery doesn't help him either.
Definitely the bottom of the list.
Poor Ganon. He has all of this tremendous power behind his attacks, and pretty much zero means of dishing it all out safely.
The terrible recovery doesn't help him either.
Definitely the bottom of the list.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Rolling with Ganon is better than running because it's faster.
Ganon no can. He got too old.
Is it true if you mash down on the c stick with Falco when Ganon Up B grabs you Falco will immediately spike Ganon out of the move?
Ganon no can. He got too old.
Is it true if you mash down on the c stick with Falco when Ganon Up B grabs you Falco will immediately spike Ganon out of the move?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Yes, I believe its an instant spike.
I think Falcon can knee him too.
In anycase, not much canb e said that has not already been said about Ganon. He's just really bad.
Crow!
Smash Lord
Ganondorf is the go-to guy for case and point examples about the difference between theory and practice.
In theory, Ganon is in his own Epic Fail tier. See the rest of this thread for people tripping all over each other to talk about just how little Ganon can do if the opponent plays it safe.
In practice, the fact that Ganon only needs to get an opening like three times per stock means that, even if both players are being sloppy, Ganon wins. Also, being the worst character has its own advantages - players looking to challenge themselves have a clear winner there, so that more decent players dabble / show off with Ganon than a randomly selected low tier.
More importantly, though, losing to a Ganon is really embarassing, and beating a Ganon is totally unimpressive, such that players are more likely to start choking during a game versus a Ganon than against most characters. And when it only takes Ganon a few hits to score a kill, choking is not a good thing.
Whatever the cause, Ganon is NOT the rock bottom of tournament results. That dubious honor "rests" on Jiggles.
Data. Be warned, though, that for characters this bad, the data really cannot be considered very reliable, as gaining 10 points in Ankoku's data (more than ANY player with these characters has done) doesn't really require winning large / high profile tournaments, and certainly doesn't require doing well on a regular basis.
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
In theory, Ganon is in his own Epic Fail tier. See the rest of this thread for people tripping all over each other to talk about just how little Ganon can do if the opponent plays it safe.
In practice, the fact that Ganon only needs to get an opening like three times per stock means that, even if both players are being sloppy, Ganon wins. Also, being the worst character has its own advantages - players looking to challenge themselves have a clear winner there, so that more decent players dabble / show off with Ganon than a randomly selected low tier.
More importantly, though, losing to a Ganon is really embarassing, and beating a Ganon is totally unimpressive, such that players are more likely to start choking during a game versus a Ganon than against most characters. And when it only takes Ganon a few hits to score a kill, choking is not a good thing.
Whatever the cause, Ganon is NOT the rock bottom of tournament results. That dubious honor "rests" on Jiggles.
Data. Be warned, though, that for characters this bad, the data really cannot be considered very reliable, as gaining 10 points in Ankoku's data (more than ANY player with these characters has done) doesn't really require winning large / high profile tournaments, and certainly doesn't require doing well on a regular basis.
As usual, the following graph takes tournament results as compiled by Ankoku (current as of the end of May, 2010), groups the results by character and player name, and shows on the Y-Axis how well the N-th best player (arranged on the X-Axis) of characters A, B, C... has been doing in tournaments over the course of 6 months.
DORF OFF II: Revenge of the DORF
SINGLES (brawl)
1. seaDORF
2. rangaDORF
3. Arrow
4. oldmanDORF
5. Calibur
5. Sirias
7. J-Birds
7. Vyse
9. Scrubs
9. Yokai
9. Ethan
9. tigerDORF
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268108
:trollface:
(I realise it's not legit lolz)
But to be serious for a sec, I strongly agree with what Crow! says about theory vs. practice. I've seen seaDORF take as high as 5th with straight ganondorf. It's also especially true when trying to beat a ganondorf main after having more than a few drinks.
SINGLES (brawl)
1. seaDORF
2. rangaDORF
3. Arrow
4. oldmanDORF
5. Calibur
5. Sirias
7. J-Birds
7. Vyse
9. Scrubs
9. Yokai
9. Ethan
9. tigerDORF
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268108
:trollface:
(I realise it's not legit lolz)
But to be serious for a sec, I strongly agree with what Crow! says about theory vs. practice. I've seen seaDORF take as high as 5th with straight ganondorf. It's also especially true when trying to beat a ganondorf main after having more than a few drinks.
^Best tournament ever
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
That is the greatest thing I have ever seen ever.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Actually there are very few characters who can succesfully gimp Ganon by hitting him out of his Up b, though MK is one of them. That has never happened to me. Unfortunately MK is one of them. But with Falco Nairing out of Ganon's Up b is way easier than Dairing, which requires Falco be at like 70-100% and isn't easy to do at all. Falcon's Fair is too slow to hit Ganon out of Up b, the move can be like 7 frames at slowest to hit Ganon out of it, that's a 14 frame move, but I think he can still Uair out of it. Still, you don't need that to gimp Ganon, his recovery sucks anyway.
Ganon doesn't really need AC Fair, he needs a shield grab to punish opponents for hitting his shield with spaced moves, which alone would make him much better, or a 3 frame jab to punish after shield drops fast enough. And approaching Ganon from the air isn't that good idea, that's where he wants the opponent to be, his Uair is fast enough (fastest attack start-up-wise) has good enough range to compete with other aerials. Also air dodging to the ground is asking to get Wizard Kicked or Gerudo'd (last one is harder to do though).
Ganon doesn't really need AC Fair, he needs a shield grab to punish opponents for hitting his shield with spaced moves, which alone would make him much better, or a 3 frame jab to punish after shield drops fast enough. And approaching Ganon from the air isn't that good idea, that's where he wants the opponent to be, his Uair is fast enough (fastest attack start-up-wise) has good enough range to compete with other aerials. Also air dodging to the ground is asking to get Wizard Kicked or Gerudo'd (last one is harder to do though).
I didn't even enter.
Poltergust
Smash Master
W-what!? I can't comprehend how you can even begin to justify that.
So, what are Ganondorf's good match-ups? He has to have at least one... right?
EDIT: Awesome sig, Verm. XD
Anyway, I have a strong take on the subject. In my experience, Ganondorf is, bar-none, the worst character in the game. A lot of people who say "I think Ganondorf deserves to be higher than he is" don't know what they're talking about.
For starters, Ganon's one good trait is his power. But his power means next to nothing if he can never land hits. The primary flaw with Ganon's power is the fact that in any given MU, he only has a handful of moves he can use before they begin to stale--badly. Unfortunately, most of Ganon's main combat moves are also his kill moves. This makes it so he does not have nearly as easy a time killing as some may think. I personally don't finish mid-weights off until around 110%.
He has the potential to kill early. But only with an Fsmash (good luck landing one in high-level play), a fresh DAir (chyeah right) or a sweetspotted, fresh, FAir (more probable than the prior two, but sooo risky). Not to mention most of his moves are unsafe on shield and even HIT until higher percents (wizkick, for example)
The next issue is his frame data. Against any kind of quick character, Ganondorf is pretty much helpless and the player alone has to improvise ways to beat them. Having no shieldgrab options, save for rare occasions, and absolutely nothing lower than 8 frames OoS, his shield is almost more of a bane than a boon. Also, having no grab range to speak of makes beating out shields extremely difficult, unless you can repeatedly trick the opponent into not shieldgrabbing you when you're approaching their shield. His lack of shieldgrab makes him a rock, paper character with no scissors. It makes him very easy to pressure, combo and so forth.
Then we have his recovery--inarguably the worst aspect of Ganon. Not only is his distance second worst in the game, winning out only against Link's, he gets punished for landing up-bs due to the lack of hitstun, and upon grabbing the ledge and landing back on stage, he receives what I'd say is around 35-40 frames of recovery carry-over lag. He is, without a doubt, the easiest character in the game to gimp.
He has next-to-zero priority, mediocre range and as mentioned before, I horrible staling problem. Ganondorf got ****ed in every way a character can in this game, save for his strength. He obviously has no approach, considering with his speed and lack of projectile, anyone will see him coming from a mile away and will usually only be in any danger if they approach.
Ganondorf is, without doubt, the bottom of this game. Whenever you see a Ganon do well, it's not Ganon's strengths coming through; it's the player overcoming nigh insurmountable odds.
For starters, Ganon's one good trait is his power. But his power means next to nothing if he can never land hits. The primary flaw with Ganon's power is the fact that in any given MU, he only has a handful of moves he can use before they begin to stale--badly. Unfortunately, most of Ganon's main combat moves are also his kill moves. This makes it so he does not have nearly as easy a time killing as some may think. I personally don't finish mid-weights off until around 110%.
He has the potential to kill early. But only with an Fsmash (good luck landing one in high-level play), a fresh DAir (chyeah right) or a sweetspotted, fresh, FAir (more probable than the prior two, but sooo risky). Not to mention most of his moves are unsafe on shield and even HIT until higher percents (wizkick, for example)
The next issue is his frame data. Against any kind of quick character, Ganondorf is pretty much helpless and the player alone has to improvise ways to beat them. Having no shieldgrab options, save for rare occasions, and absolutely nothing lower than 8 frames OoS, his shield is almost more of a bane than a boon. Also, having no grab range to speak of makes beating out shields extremely difficult, unless you can repeatedly trick the opponent into not shieldgrabbing you when you're approaching their shield. His lack of shieldgrab makes him a rock, paper character with no scissors. It makes him very easy to pressure, combo and so forth.
Then we have his recovery--inarguably the worst aspect of Ganon. Not only is his distance second worst in the game, winning out only against Link's, he gets punished for landing up-bs due to the lack of hitstun, and upon grabbing the ledge and landing back on stage, he receives what I'd say is around 35-40 frames of recovery carry-over lag. He is, without a doubt, the easiest character in the game to gimp.
He has next-to-zero priority, mediocre range and as mentioned before, I horrible staling problem. Ganondorf got ****ed in every way a character can in this game, save for his strength. He obviously has no approach, considering with his speed and lack of projectile, anyone will see him coming from a mile away and will usually only be in any danger if they approach.
Ganondorf is, without doubt, the bottom of this game. Whenever you see a Ganon do well, it's not Ganon's strengths coming through; it's the player overcoming nigh insurmountable odds.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Ganon does well against most low tiers, like Falcon, Link, Bowser and Lucas as some. He does OK against Snakes who don't know the MU as well and thanks to his FH Nairs and Uairs he can actually somewhat wall Wario, making it not be too bad MU. His grab release options against Wario are also scary, including a regrab. And according to Fonz, Ganon does well vs Diddy, but I don't know what to say about that MU.
I'm curious to see the reasoning behind that one, too.W-what!? I can't comprehend how you can even begin to justify that.
So, what are Ganondorf's good match-ups? He has to have at least one... right?
EDIT: Awesome sig, Verm. XD
Also, nope. Ganondorf's best MU is probably Ivysaur, and it's 55:45 Ivy.And thanks, PG. xD
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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But we have a realistic infinite chainchoke on Charizard. I thought that was his best matchup.
That's based more on reaction. Charizard can put the hurt on Ganon, even if we do have some nasty tricks on him. Either way his best MU is 45:55 with someone awful.
Edit: Also, Ankoku's results thread is a good idea, broadly, but for nitpicking placements, it's not so good. The only reason Ganon places above some of the other bottom tiers is because the others are just under-represented.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Have I ever mentioned Verm has a sexy signature? I want to record that in better quality
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
What...the....****...are...you...smoking
smashkng
Smash Lord
It's not true at all that Ganon can't land hits. But I agree that he has more trouble doing it than anyone else.
Staling does gives problems at times, but not always. It depends on which moves you can land at the times you get the chance to hit.
Ganon doesn't really lack range in any moves other than his grab and Usmash, his Dtilt, DA, Wizard Kick and Gerudo all have awesome range, but all the 1st 3 are unsafe on shields and in the last one a person with a good reaction time can easily spot dodge it and punish it. He does have priority problems vs disjoints like MK, Ganon's Fsmash does actually beat Ganon and Falcon's GUA, because there is also a 8% damage priority. And the reason Wizard Kick has pretty bad priority is the lack of a hitbox in the foot part, which sucks for Ganon because it makes projectile characters even harder to deal with. About recovery, if you learn to buffer jump + AD from a ledge drop you can land offstage. It's very hard to master but it's worth to learn, and reduces the landing lag to 15 frames landing at most which is not bad. That landing lag glitch is 30 frames if you Up b and 20 frames if you Side b, though that's enough landing lag to easily punish his landings. And his recovery overall still sucks, I completely agree with that.
Other than that and your personal opinions, I agree with you in everything you said.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
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- 7,336
Personally, it really bothers me that there are no Ganon mains in the BBR.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
It bothers me that theres no good Bowser mains in the SBR afaik.
Bahamut777
Smash Ace
It really bothers me that most of the SBR are ROBs, whose are very negative people, MKs, whose are very positive people, and Marths, who are very gay people.
Exalted
Smash Lord
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B!squick
Smash Master
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