Excellence
Smash Champion
He shoots lasers, he jabs, he chaingrabs, he BDACUSs and he runs away. Let's discuss the match-up.
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Falco is not going to be trying to jump over anything Olimar does because he'll get pivot grabbed or UAir'd into a combo which he will never want. Combos probably won't happen unless Falco is already behind since he won't be approaching unless he's down a stock anyway. DAir is okay on Olimar's shield but you should always be powershielding when you know what's coming anyway. That being said you just jab him away and force him to come back by camping him some more.olimar outcamps falco if done right so falco will be approaching, hilt already told how to outcamp falco, it can be difficult without training though
brood is better than rain, and nietono is supposed to be better than brood, and they both loses to rain lol
whenever u space with fsmash or grabs falco will just jump over them (falco's short hop is so stupid) and get in ur face with a dair, ull most likely shield, so hell follow with a jab to beat all our oos options and then a grab to chaingrab or whatever. we gotta powershield the dair. chaingrab will sometimes kill us getting a 0-death kill that easy if falco doesn't mess up, if not well usually get like 60% from the followups after the dair because of our awesome techroll
we have no consistent ways to stop the side b.
falco is pretty good at gimping us and his fsmash is really troublesome when were on the ledge
bair will just beat everything we have in the air even though we can whistle and punish with nair most times
we have no chaingrab at falco and hes not that easy to combo out of a dthrow when hes at 10% or more
if the falco doesnt know the matchup its obviously difficult for him, olimar is always difficult if u dont know how to play him
its difficult to kill falco, his jab beats out most of our kill moves except spaced grab and fair (not sure about fair though) and its **** fast.
falco has a solid advantage against olimar, put the ratio u feel like to. i dont know about low seed play though
falco will jump when he expects a spaced fsmash or a grab, landing on our face. grab and fsmash have delay and u cant do any pivot grab during its delay.Excellence said:Falco is not going to be trying to jump over anything Olimar does because he'll get pivot grabbed or UAir'd into a combo which he will never want. Combos probably won't happen unless Falco is already behind since he won't be approaching unless he's down a stock anyway. DAir is okay on Olimar's shield but you should always be powershielding when you know what's coming anyway. That being said you just jab him away and force him to come back by camping him some more.
Falco's chaingrab won't be a death grab unless you're bad at SDI into the stage or meteor canceling his spike. Again, this isn't likely to happen because neither of you is going to approach one another until you're way out of combo percentges. Olimar's main deal is to camp Falco until he's out of combo percentage then go in and kick his ***.
The consistent way to beat Side B is to know the range of it, learn where Falco uses it, and punish it with a OOS option after powershielding it. You'll probably be using FSmash or DSmash depending on where Falco lands. I can only see this being a problem if he's using it just outside of Olimar's grab range but even then, I'd rather be trying to FSmash Falco offstage than grab him.
Dair is safe on Olimar's shield if the Falco spaces it, bair probably is as well.None of falco's aerials are safe on shield, but you have 3-5 frames of error to pull off that usmash oos
I remember talking with Shugo about it a week or so ago, the timing is strict but you can usmash oos before falco can jab or anything. It's like a 3 or 5 frame window for input, so it's not like Olimar is going to be nailing it frequently.Dair is safe on Olimar's shield if the Falco spaces it, bair probably is as well.
I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I can hint at it. First, Peach and Ike are not great characters anyways, so once we figure out how to avoid their up close game they go back to being the relatively bad characters they naturally are (not to mention Peach can't really kill well). Snake is top tier partially because of his nades and mines, and Oli is great at defeating those, so then we force Snake to approach Oli, something he's not particularly good at. Falco, as someone else mentioned, has a much better time adapting, plus unlike Peach and Ike he's already a good character with lots of positive features, which just makes him that much harder to deal withBut really why do you guys think the matchup is so bad? Yes he ***** us at close range but so does Snake, Peach, Ike etc. A character dominating us in close range is pretty common lol. The chaingrabbed can be avoided by platform camping so you don't have to worry about that too much.
It might be a bad matchup but it's not horrible lol. And please don't just cite tourney results. Since when have those been the end all be all of determining matchups?
Okay, first let me say this. Falco probably won't be approaching Olimar. When they get close it will probably be because Olimar is trying to punish Phantasm. The Falco could get desperate but there are exceptions to every general situation so please don't go into the rare times he will approach. Second, if Falco is going to jump over Olimar's FSmash or standing grab then he's going to either Short Hop or Full Hop. If he short hops, even SHDL, he gets hit at his feet by FSmash. If he full hops, Olimar has time to runaway and possibly pivot grab. You would have to make the mistake of attacking first or standing in the same spot for Falco to SH anything at you.what about rain, bob saget? japan exists, and in olimar's metagame theyre the best
falco will jump when he expects a spaced fsmash or a grab, landing on our face. grab and fsmash have delay and u cant do any pivot grab during its delay.
dair to jab was just an example, he can fall with laser to jab instead or just airododge to jab and whatever he wants. anyways if ur able to powershield everything i dont know how u still arent the best player in the world.
falco can shield ur second jab. not reliable.
u cant tech the spike always, and even if u meteor cancel ur still gimpable (% dependant though). so ur thinking that falco will just keep throwing lasers even if he sees they arent working. no falcos who know the matchup should try to go for the camp, they are really good at approaching olimar.
of course falcos will finish their side b in ur face (irony). in addition, the side b has not much landing lag if done right. we can stop it with tilts and nair consistently. usmash, fsmash and fair sometimes works but i think it depends on the pikmin and where we hit falco.
that combo is ok but when falco have some % its dodgeable. falco is still light and not as much fast faller like fox so hes not as easy to combo.
of course olimar is the best at killing in the matchup
Well said however in addition to that, I'd like you to think about why these characters beat us at close range. The answer, of course, is there speed over our close range attacks, range & priority, and in Peach's case Float. Falco has speed, priority, and canceling on us which to me makes him a little more difficult. As you said.I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I can hint at it. First, Peach and Ike are not great characters anyways, so once we figure out how to avoid their up close game they go back to being the relatively bad characters they naturally are (not to mention Peach can't really kill well). Snake is top tier partially because of his nades and mines, and Oli is great at defeating those, so then we force Snake to approach Oli, something he's not particularly good at. Falco, as someone else mentioned, has a much better time adapting, plus unlike Peach and Ike he's already a good character with lots of positive features, which just makes him that much harder to deal with
ur right, im sorry xD btw excelence if u say that falco is worse than peach why u say its 45-55?You're failing the thread right now because you're aruging with me with the intention to disprove what I'm saying, which not only have you not done because the facts are in your favor, instead of proving that Olimar has an easier or more difficult time in this match-up.
falcos like to throw lazorzuhh @ excellence
why would falco NOT want to approach?
I just don't agree with a lot of what you're saying. Perhaps I am wrong, in which case someone should explain it to me more. However, this is not theory, these are easily testable and can be reproduced over and over to show consistency enough to become fact. If Falco short hops, I'm pretty sure he should get hit in the foot.falco's short hop is high enough to not get hit by a fsmash. maybe yellow will, but i dont think so.
i disagree with u noa. i think real gaming should be more important to decide matchup ratios than only theory.
i dont think that a falco who see hes not able to outcamp us will continue throwing lasers and shines and hope he gets the lead in the camping game. i thinked that falco was good at approaching us because i thinked we had no oos options, so if fino is right it probably is better for us. he can beat our pivot grabs if he lands with a laser probly.
ur right, im sorry xD btw excelence if u say that falco is worse than peach why u say its 45-55?
@fino: are u sure u take care of the shieldstun frames we get from being hit? if u did, then i suck hahah
btw
dthrow fsmash regrab works
we can di out of his multihit jab and fair in his face
and falcos dash attack is also great against olimar. it usually beats out our fsmash and it can beat a bad spaced grab too.
we should be able to whistle most of falco's jab cancel stuff and punish him, even though if he knows it he can charge a usmash or whatever
Ugh, so much fail. Correcting everything in here would just be an utter waste of my time.Okay, first let me say this. Falco probably won't be approaching Olimar. When they get close it will probably be because Olimar is trying to punish Phantasm. The Falco could get desperate but there are exceptions to every general situation so please don't go into the rare times he will approach. Second, if Falco is going to jump over Olimar's FSmash or standing grab then he's going to either Short Hop or Full Hop. If he short hops, even SHDL, he gets hit at his feet by FSmash. If he full hops, Olimar has time to runaway and possibly pivot grab. You would have to make the mistake of attacking first or standing in the same spot for Falco to SH anything at you.
Falco is not good at approaching Olimar. No one is good at approaching Olimar except for Wario, Peach, Meta Knight, and Luigi. I would like to know when all of Falco's lasers are going to stop failing him and his running away strategies will begin to suck because from what I've learned they don't. Eventually Olimar will have to go for the kill or try to punish something with an Usmash, Dsmash, or throw and when he tries to he should be taking damage.
The combos I mentioned are to be done at the appropriate percentages, this is a given and supposed to be self-evident. Don't tell me there are no combos then tell me "okay at certain percents." Just tell me I'm right and move on.
You're failing the thread right now because you're aruging with me with the intention to disprove what I'm saying, which not only have you not done because the facts are in your favor, instead of proving that Olimar has an easier or more difficult time in this match-up.
Well said however in addition to that, I'd like you to think about why these characters beat us at close range. The answer, of course, is there speed over our close range attacks, range & priority, and in Peach's case Float. Falco has speed, priority, and canceling on us which to me makes him a little more difficult. As you said.
There's videos of Nietono vs RAIN (grand finals) in the video thread ;o Nietono being the best Japan Oli btw, lol.I know little of Japanese Oli's set score against Falco and the same with European Olis.
I was only speaking in respect to Olimar.Also Excellence btw Peach's float doesn't improve Peach's close range game much at all. But it still ***** us lol.
You know, I actually have all of your posts set to ignore becuase you are completely devoid of any level of intelligence, logical reasoning, or instinct beyond survival. Somehow, I felt like you were going to comment on something I said and I was right about you, as always. More to the point, you're wrong, you know you're wrong and you couldn't hold a candle to me in putting together a feasible explination so even if by some chance you were right, you'd still fail. Disappear.
Ugh, so much fail. Correcting everything in here would just be an utter waste of my time.
I think 45:55 is fine but no one is really giving a complete layout and explaining it.Yeah I know Rain has beaten Nietono and presumably Brood but I was saying that I how many times they played before that and win:loss ratio etc.
What of KOing?starting to think this MU is 60-40 in falco's favor, after playing enough falcos irl, i can safely say that we go pretty even in camping (falco's reflector makes camping him for anything more than minor damage pretty hard) and his range, priority, and ways to get close to us and in the air make this matchup a little difficult, we still have spacing, beat him slightly in camping, or a lot if he does it wrong, and can stop his approach, but not efficiently enough IMHO
he has DACUS, which is very long length and can be used to punish a mere jump, landing, roll, ect.What of KOing?
You know, I actually have all of your posts set to ignore becuase you are completely devoid of any level of intelligence, logical reasoning, or instinct beyond survival. Somehow, I felt like you were going to comment on something I said and I was right about you, as always. More to the point, you're wrong, you know you're wrong and you couldn't hold a candle to me in putting together a feasible explination so even if by some chance you were right, you'd still fail. Disappear.
Probably is such a poor word when trying to discuss something logical. You should play larry sometime. He approaches with falco and doesn't give a flying **** about olimar's fortress, lol.Okay, first let me say this. Falco probably won't be approaching Olimar.
This was the part that really got me mad.When they get close it will probably be because Olimar is trying to punish Phantasm.
If Falco is going to jump, it's going to be a short hop... or a full hop... does he have any other choices? No **** he's going to do one of those two if he's jumping.... those are the ONLY TWO JUMPS HE CAN DO.Second, if Falco is going to jump over Olimar's FSmash or standing grab then he's going to either Short Hop or Full Hop. If he short hops, even SHDL, he gets hit at his feet by FSmash. If he full hops, Olimar has time to runaway and possibly pivot grab. You would have to make the mistake of attacking first or standing in the same spot for Falco to SH anything at you.
So, me being the irrational creature you claim me to be... I ask... what kind of circular logic are you trying to throw at us?You would have to make the mistake of attacking first or standing in the same spot for Falco to SH anything at you.
Minus moves like Jab and down air.Falco is not good at approaching Olimar.
Really? I thought all those characters had a hard time approaching olimar as wellNo one is good at approaching Olimar except for Wario, Peach, Meta Knight, and Luigi.
I don't even understand what this means. From what it sounds like... I see lots of tears and johns. I would like to know when all of Ice Climbers CGs are going to stop failing them. Here's the thing, we're two years into the game, and those strategies still work relatively well. Chance are they won't.I would like to know when all of Falco's lasers are going to stop failing him and his running away strategies will begin to suck because from what I've learned they don't.
Falco can get caught in the same trap. You kind of don't have any follow-up information... so I don't understand what you're trying to say again. Very bad explaining. Perhaps you're trying to say "instead of going for the kill olimar should take damage" ??Eventually Olimar will have to go for the kill or try to punish something with an Usmash, Dsmash, or throw and when he tries to he should be taking damage.
Quite a big ego you have there for no results...Just tell me I'm right and move on.
Is this your first time playing a fighter game... ever...? at all? I thought this was ****ing common sense. LMAO, this ego is soooooo hilarious. Why don't you just feed all us bottom dwellers the basics to fighter games. Fighting triangles and everything. I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear about it. Perhaps you can go more in depth on different types of jumps (other than SHs and FHs).think about why these characters beat us at close range. The answer, of course, is there speed over our close range attacks, range & priority,
If Falco is going to jump, it's going to be a short hop... or a full hop... does he have any other choices? No **** he's going to do one of those two if he's jumping.... those are the ONLY TWO JUMPS HE CAN DO.
Perhaps you can go more in depth on different types of jumps (other than SHs and FHs).