DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,302
One of the problems and complaints our character has is that we play super campy. Much of the metagame is designed for us to capitalize on mistakes an opponent makes on approach. However, because of the infinite punishing power a cg has, realistically speaking, once an opponent has the lead, they will often never approach. This tactic that I've been developing shall be what I hope is part one of a two part series.
A few premises that need to be taken into account:
1. Out of dash, the options a player has at their disposal are fairly limited. They are to continue on to running, dash back in a dash dance, stop, ([reverse] boost/pivot) grab, dash attack, up smash, side special, jumping, and to a more limited extent the neutral and down specials as well as shield can be done out of a run.
2. The Ice Climbers have one of the highest, if not the highest, sliding effects. On shield stun, they slide a considerable amount. At the same time, they also have one of the highest, if not the highest (I think Luigi is higher), momentum sliding/low friction rates. For the most part, this has always been perceived as a negative effect because the slide is caused by shielding an opponent’s attack causing shieldstun and moderate knockback. In particular, this effect makes it difficult to grab directly out of shield.
3. Shield dropping takes a total of 7 frames of cool down time. However, when done out of a run, these frames can be spent while moving in a sliding motion that carries the momentum of the direction of the dash.
4. A standing grab has both 2 frames faster hitboxes as well as 10 frames shorter cool down than a dash grab or pivot grab. At the same time, a dash grab is triggered by how much player the momentum the player is carrying under their own control, regardless of what move came before. That means that for up to two frames after initiating a shield, it is possible to dash grab. However at the third frame, the standard standing grab is initiated instead of a dash grab out of dash cancelling shield.
5. Because of timing and spacing, the range difference between a dash grab and a standing grab is fairly negligible. To explain, by doing a dash grab, one must commit earlier to a grab than a normal standing grab. However, with a standing grab, that same distance could be covered by DI, prior to a grab being executed.
6. Momentum can also be carried into other moves out of dash cancelled shield including smash attacks at they charge.
What all of this means:
1. This creates the DSG (Dash Shield Grab or Dash Cancel Shield Grab) - Essentially, it simply means that out of a run, a player flashes their shield for as few frames as they can and then initiates a grab. In terms of spacing, outside of a few exceptions, any grounded attack is able to be grabbed if an Ice Climber is given enough time to run. The pros of shielding prior to grabbing are twofold. First, a player would power shield many possible attacks that would interrupt a traditional dash grab. If a move is powershielded, or just shielded for that matter, if a player initiates grab on IASA frame 1 or 2, they would dash grab out of shield. More interesting, if a player grabs out of shield on IASA frame 3, they would perform a standing grab. Therefore, with correct timing, a player trades 1 frame of starting move time against 10 frames of cool down. I’ll let you all determine what 10 frames mean to you, but it’s not going to save you from a particular 5 frame dsmash hit box, but it might save you from some 14 frame fsmash hitbox. Meaning that an opponent’s punishing power is reduced drastically off a missed grab.
Video evidence: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11219504&postcount=25
2. As a mixup, an Ice Climber can elect to simply not drop shield in order to bait a spot dodge. The opponent counter to that would obviously be to grab the lead climber. However, if one does not shield drop, Nana is now in a position to not get hit by a pummel of fthrow by an opponent. Thus making an opponent grab game either cancelled or executed at a positive trade for the climber if a counter is executed correctly.
3. The other option is to use a tilt or jab out of the Dash Cancel Shield. For example, if your opponent is getting spot dodge happy, it’s possible at low percents to Dash Cancel Utilt, followed by a footstool, into a grab. Dtilt while sliding has incredible range.
4. This also allows for other desyncs to occur while moving. In particualr, the pivot desync can be exceuted while still sliding, although the time window is noticably decreased. However, it allows a player to execute a pivot desync, regardless of when the player's initial dash occurs, meaning it allows for pivot desyncs out of run. If it's a forward dash which is traditional for the pivot, it has a VERY narrow time window.
IUseful stuff: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11401039&postcount=4592
5. It’s possible to use this technique as an extension of the Reverse Initial Dash Desync. In particular, it sets up nicely into an unexpected Nana grab. I’ve personally been using this technique in a lot of friendlies and it works. Suprisingly, single climber squall sets up particularly well, even more so than blizzard chasing if spaced correctly.
Edit: It's been confirmed that this actually works as a moving Dash Bounce Desync if done correctly. Although this was kind of a given since the Dash bounce and the Reverse Initial Dash desyncs are very related.
Video found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11203351&postcount=13
6. Although already noted, using the DSC is useful when combined with the SND. A sliding supergrab is a nice mixup. There are other uses that I'll list as I come up with them. For now, it appears to have similar properties to pivoting out of DSC, except the separation between the two climbers is significantly larger. If timed correctly, it's possible to do a retreating Nana IB chaser that spans the distance of about 1/3rd of FD.
7. The uses are also not limited to approaching. Using this as an OoS option combined with a charged reverse fsmash seems useful. In particular, I’ve been using it against tornado. Specifically, shield drop, dash away, dash shield cancel, charge reverse fsmash. When the metaknight gets close, use the fsmash. It has a safer range than a pivot grab, and is less baitable because one simply has to hold the charge if the MK elects not to approach.
8. Using the sliding pivot at a ledge with an IB results in a quick latch guard with "extended" edge invinicbility. If the player hits IB again, the climbers will trade spots with Nana falling to the ledge as popo stands up with an attack.
9. Allows for an additional new desync option when an item is in play. If combined with holding an attack input, if a player does a DSC, the climber not holding the item will perform a dash grab while the other holding the item will perform a shield slide. Allows for almost instant special chasing while holding items.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11248225&postcount=34
Addtional Credit:
Ealert - Frame Data on the Dash grab vs standing grab out of shield
Enda - For thinking of the tilt mixup
00-Zero - For testing things with me and making the videos
Joon - For letting me test all of these techs on him for hours and forcing me to break the Lucario matchup.
A few premises that need to be taken into account:
1. Out of dash, the options a player has at their disposal are fairly limited. They are to continue on to running, dash back in a dash dance, stop, ([reverse] boost/pivot) grab, dash attack, up smash, side special, jumping, and to a more limited extent the neutral and down specials as well as shield can be done out of a run.
2. The Ice Climbers have one of the highest, if not the highest, sliding effects. On shield stun, they slide a considerable amount. At the same time, they also have one of the highest, if not the highest (I think Luigi is higher), momentum sliding/low friction rates. For the most part, this has always been perceived as a negative effect because the slide is caused by shielding an opponent’s attack causing shieldstun and moderate knockback. In particular, this effect makes it difficult to grab directly out of shield.
3. Shield dropping takes a total of 7 frames of cool down time. However, when done out of a run, these frames can be spent while moving in a sliding motion that carries the momentum of the direction of the dash.
4. A standing grab has both 2 frames faster hitboxes as well as 10 frames shorter cool down than a dash grab or pivot grab. At the same time, a dash grab is triggered by how much player the momentum the player is carrying under their own control, regardless of what move came before. That means that for up to two frames after initiating a shield, it is possible to dash grab. However at the third frame, the standard standing grab is initiated instead of a dash grab out of dash cancelling shield.
5. Because of timing and spacing, the range difference between a dash grab and a standing grab is fairly negligible. To explain, by doing a dash grab, one must commit earlier to a grab than a normal standing grab. However, with a standing grab, that same distance could be covered by DI, prior to a grab being executed.
6. Momentum can also be carried into other moves out of dash cancelled shield including smash attacks at they charge.
What all of this means:
1. This creates the DSG (Dash Shield Grab or Dash Cancel Shield Grab) - Essentially, it simply means that out of a run, a player flashes their shield for as few frames as they can and then initiates a grab. In terms of spacing, outside of a few exceptions, any grounded attack is able to be grabbed if an Ice Climber is given enough time to run. The pros of shielding prior to grabbing are twofold. First, a player would power shield many possible attacks that would interrupt a traditional dash grab. If a move is powershielded, or just shielded for that matter, if a player initiates grab on IASA frame 1 or 2, they would dash grab out of shield. More interesting, if a player grabs out of shield on IASA frame 3, they would perform a standing grab. Therefore, with correct timing, a player trades 1 frame of starting move time against 10 frames of cool down. I’ll let you all determine what 10 frames mean to you, but it’s not going to save you from a particular 5 frame dsmash hit box, but it might save you from some 14 frame fsmash hitbox. Meaning that an opponent’s punishing power is reduced drastically off a missed grab.
Video evidence: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11219504&postcount=25
2. As a mixup, an Ice Climber can elect to simply not drop shield in order to bait a spot dodge. The opponent counter to that would obviously be to grab the lead climber. However, if one does not shield drop, Nana is now in a position to not get hit by a pummel of fthrow by an opponent. Thus making an opponent grab game either cancelled or executed at a positive trade for the climber if a counter is executed correctly.
3. The other option is to use a tilt or jab out of the Dash Cancel Shield. For example, if your opponent is getting spot dodge happy, it’s possible at low percents to Dash Cancel Utilt, followed by a footstool, into a grab. Dtilt while sliding has incredible range.
4. This also allows for other desyncs to occur while moving. In particualr, the pivot desync can be exceuted while still sliding, although the time window is noticably decreased. However, it allows a player to execute a pivot desync, regardless of when the player's initial dash occurs, meaning it allows for pivot desyncs out of run. If it's a forward dash which is traditional for the pivot, it has a VERY narrow time window.
IUseful stuff: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11401039&postcount=4592
5. It’s possible to use this technique as an extension of the Reverse Initial Dash Desync. In particular, it sets up nicely into an unexpected Nana grab. I’ve personally been using this technique in a lot of friendlies and it works. Suprisingly, single climber squall sets up particularly well, even more so than blizzard chasing if spaced correctly.
Edit: It's been confirmed that this actually works as a moving Dash Bounce Desync if done correctly. Although this was kind of a given since the Dash bounce and the Reverse Initial Dash desyncs are very related.
Video found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11203351&postcount=13
6. Although already noted, using the DSC is useful when combined with the SND. A sliding supergrab is a nice mixup. There are other uses that I'll list as I come up with them. For now, it appears to have similar properties to pivoting out of DSC, except the separation between the two climbers is significantly larger. If timed correctly, it's possible to do a retreating Nana IB chaser that spans the distance of about 1/3rd of FD.
7. The uses are also not limited to approaching. Using this as an OoS option combined with a charged reverse fsmash seems useful. In particular, I’ve been using it against tornado. Specifically, shield drop, dash away, dash shield cancel, charge reverse fsmash. When the metaknight gets close, use the fsmash. It has a safer range than a pivot grab, and is less baitable because one simply has to hold the charge if the MK elects not to approach.
8. Using the sliding pivot at a ledge with an IB results in a quick latch guard with "extended" edge invinicbility. If the player hits IB again, the climbers will trade spots with Nana falling to the ledge as popo stands up with an attack.
9. Allows for an additional new desync option when an item is in play. If combined with holding an attack input, if a player does a DSC, the climber not holding the item will perform a dash grab while the other holding the item will perform a shield slide. Allows for almost instant special chasing while holding items.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11248225&postcount=34
Addtional Credit:
Ealert - Frame Data on the Dash grab vs standing grab out of shield
Enda - For thinking of the tilt mixup
00-Zero - For testing things with me and making the videos
Joon - For letting me test all of these techs on him for hours and forcing me to break the Lucario matchup.
