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Second Jump Recovery (WIP)

Luxor

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
2,155
Location
Frame data threads o.0
Lately I've been curious about SJR and how it works. Let me start by saying that ISJR (Infinite... SJR) is a silly term, since all it is is SJR'ing over and over thanks to the fact that the double jump + certain aerial combination seems to set up for SJR quite nicely.

Required viewing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmbLWN9NM-8&NR=1
Suggested reading: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173119&highlight=isjr

Basic facts about SJR if you don't know:
  • It refreshes and then uses your double jump
  • It can be done out of ANY aerial, as long as the aerial starts at a sufficient height
  • Looping SJR's (ISJR) only occurs with certain aerials that end quick enough out of the DJ to allow you to SJR again.
  • This thing is super weird.

Now onto my test method and findings. Credits to the King of Evil for making this possible.

Method: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269540&highlight=isjr
Ganon's SJR is (relatively) easy to perform, although as far as I can tell, you do only have one frame to do it. If you have your Wii handy, I would suggest trying this a few times. Just jump-->buffered DJ-->Uair-->mash jump buttons and get another jump. After that you can start linking that second DJ (the SJR) into another Uair and "ISJR."
still a stupid term
It's very doable, you'll likely succeed in under a minute. Doing it consistently is another story, but whatever.

It's when you do ^this^ in frame advance that stuff starts to get serious. I'm using one of Veril's input maps to describe this, since there's really no other way.

Code:
Ganon's Uair SJR
Frame:Millisecond timer _(space)_ Input/Effect
00:00 Input jump (FH or SH)
07:88 Input DJ
08:86 Airborne, DJ occurs. Input Uair.
42:30 FAF after Uair
51:15 Input DJ
52:13 SJR occurs
53:11 Input Uair to loop back to 8. If you didn't SJR, this is the landing frame.
What this implies right here:
  • SJR does not occur by DJ'ing during autocancel frames.
  • This tech is not boring.
  • Ganon has multiple methods of flight.

In all seriousness, there is one other mind-blowing effect that happens when you do this. Try it, but don't DJ Frame 51. Just wait and see what happens. Watch Frame 51... now advance to Frame 52...

Did you see that?

Nothing! That's right, Ganon does nothing! It kind of blows my mind even though it's so simple, but from Frame 51 to Frame 52 Ganon doesn't fall. News to me.

rPSI found out what's up with this strange 2-frame nonfall state. Turns out it is the key to SJR.
Alright so here are some fun things (BTW thanks for providing me the frame map Lux). Ganon's U-air has 44 frames of animation. It takes exactly 44 frames from Ganon's Double Jump to land. From there I made the conclusion that it was likely that the requirement animation end to falling state was included in the fighter.pac part. It indeed was. So I decided to investigate.

Code:
Subroutine@22BA0

-----------|START|--------------------------
!Controller-02! 07020000
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=Animation End, 
Subroutine - Offset=@B064, 
Subroutine - Offset=@B2CC, 
Change Action(Status) - StatusID=0x272C, ID=0x18, Requirement=On Ground, 
Additional Requirement - Requirement=Bit is Set, Variable=RA-Bit[30], 
Selective IASA - IASA=0x9, 
Concurrent Infinite Loop - 0x9, @22B70, 
----------------------------|END|-----------
Here is the subroutine in fighter.pac that contains the landing lag. It is called during an aerial while it is being performed. When the animation of the aerial is finished, it must abide by these rules. Since the aerial has finished its animation, it is forced to go into fall, since it comes before the actual landing coding. This means that if the animation ends right as you would hit the ground, you will go into fall state instead of landing. From in the falling state is when you would land. Now, the thing is, the game registers landing and hitting the stage differently. When you hit the stage, you get your jumps back, which is what happens at the end of the aerial, however, you are still in falling, so you can input another double jump.

Hurrah!
Quick rewording for those of you who don't speak PSA, it means that when an aerial's animation (not the aerial itself) ends, the game thinks you're falling, even though you'd normally be landing. Since the game wants to say you're landing but thinks you're falling, you get your second jump renewed by "landing" and can use it immediately since you're still airborne, more or less. This is an oversimplification but it explains it well enough.

So I looked at Bowser's side-b. It seems to be a coding error. lol
Code:
Action0x11D
@1B308
SpecialSAirCatch, 
-----------|START|--------------------------
!Posture-03! 05030000
!Posture-04! 05040000
!Character Specific-01! 0C010000
Change Subaction - SpecialSAirCatch
Edge Sticky - 0x5, 
Set Air/Ground - 0xA, 
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=On Ground, 
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=Animation End, 
----------------------------|END|-----------
See how when he's on the ground he goes into Falling (E). That let's him do the exact thing I described to you happen.
I can't really make this much clearer, you get the same thingy going on with Bowser's Koopa Klaw, this time as a result of the coding of the move itself rather than its animation. I think it's kosher to call this an SJR, since it does renew your second jump, even though the mechanic is a bit different.

The Way Forward
Now that we know you have to use an aerial with an animation X frames long X frames above the ground, it's a relatively simple matter to find combinations of Buffered DJ + Aerial that will result in an SJR. Any aerial can be timed frame perfectly to work, but for practical purposes we're looking for the *relatively* simple ones, like Ganon's Uair SJR used as an example in this thread. That one doesn't rely on timing at all, only quickness of inputs and buffering- it's easy to do, about as hard to master as some of Fox/Falco's laser techs (totally possible with a bit of practice) and has legit gameplay applications. It won't work as a brickwall, but it definitely has great mixup potential for some characters, if we find an easy combination of inputs for them to use.

Pending Questions and Investigations
  • What's up with that 2-frame non-fall state? Is this state the key to being able to SJR? Figured out by rPSI
  • We need more input maps for other characters SJR's. What we need now is every character's Buffered DJ data, since by combining that with animation duration for aerials we can quantitatively determine EASY ways to SJR.
  • What's the deal with Bowser's KK? Needs more looking into. I'm not convinced this and Klaw Hopping are the same mechanic anymore. Figured out by rPSI
  • Are there any easy ways/tricksies in the same vein as these to incorporate this in a real match? Any stages with platform layouts that make certain SJR's real easy?
    ^This is the most important part IMO, actual possible gameplay applications (I'm not super optimistic, but...) With every character's Buffered DJ data, it'll be simple to find SJR's that work on flat ground. I think Battlefield in particular has platforms that would be interesting to SJR around. Once again, we know it's possible to do it on plats with timing, but we want to eliminate the timing and just SJR by mashing buttons. Doesn't require frame perfection that way. Well it does, but in inputs rather than timing.

Major credit to rPSI for looking into this, whoever's Youtube video that was, Makkun for the old resource, and DLA for making public the easiest SJR I know of.

Updates to come!
 

Luxor

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
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Location
Frame data threads o.0
Publishing Copy

Lately one of our members has been curious about SJR and how it works. Let us start by saying that ISJR (Infinite... SJR) is a silly term, since all it is is SJR'ing over and over thanks to the fact that the double jump + certain aerial combination seems to set up for SJR quite nicely.

Required viewing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmbLWN9NM-8&NR=1
Suggested reading: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173119&highlight=isjr

Basic facts about SJR if you don't know:
  • It refreshes and then uses your double jump
  • It can be done out of ANY aerial, as long as the aerial starts at a sufficient height
  • Looping SJR's (ISJR) only occurs with certain aerials that end quick enough out of the DJ to allow you to SJR again.
  • This thing is a bug
"Luxor said:
Now onto the test method and findings. Credits to the King of Evil for making this possible.

Method: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269540&highlight=isjr
Ganon's SJR is (relatively) easy to perform can tell, albeit, the timing is frame perfect. If you have your Wii handy, I would suggest trying this a few times. Just jump-->buffered DJ-->Uair-->mash jump buttons and get another jump. After that you can start linking that second DJ (the SJR) into another Uair and "ISJR."
still a stupid term
It's very doable, you'll likely succeed in under a minute. Doing it consistently is another story, but whatever.

It's when you do ^this^ in frame advance that stuff starts to get serious. I'm using one of Veril's input maps to describe this, since there's really no other way.

Code:
Ganon's Uair SJR
Frame:Millisecond timer _(space)_ Input/Effect
00:00 Input jump (FH or SH)
07:88 Input DJ
08:86 Airborne, DJ occurs. Input Uair.
42:30 FAF after Uair
51:15 Input DJ
52:13 SJR occurs
53:11 Input Uair to loop back to 8. If you didn't SJR, this is the landing frame.
What this implies right here:
  • SJR does not occur by DJ'ing during autocancel frames.
  • This tech is not boring.
  • Ganon has multiple methods of flight.

In all seriousness, there is one other mind-blowing effect that happens when you do this. Try it, but don't DJ Frame 51. Just wait and see what happens. Watch Frame 51... now advance to Frame 52...

Did you see that?

Nothing! That's right, Ganon does nothing! It kind of blows my mind even though it's so simple, but from Frame 51 to Frame 52 Ganon doesn't fall. News to me.
rPSI found out what's up with this strange 2-frame nonfall state. Turns out it is the key to SJR.
Alright so here are some fun things (BTW thanks for providing me the frame map Lux). Ganon's U-air has 44 frames of animation. It takes exactly 44 frames from Ganon's Double Jump to land. From there I made the conclusion that it was likely that the requirement animation end to falling state was included in the fighter.pac part. It indeed was. So I decided to investigate.

Code:
Subroutine@22BA0

-----------|START|--------------------------
!Controller-02! 07020000
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=Animation End, 
Subroutine - Offset=@B064, 
Subroutine - Offset=@B2CC, 
Change Action(Status) - StatusID=0x272C, ID=0x18, Requirement=On Ground, 
Additional Requirement - Requirement=Bit is Set, Variable=RA-Bit[30], 
Selective IASA - IASA=0x9, 
Concurrent Infinite Loop - 0x9, @22B70, 
----------------------------|END|-----------
Here is the subroutine in fighter.pac that contains the landing lag. It is called during an aerial while it is being performed. When the animation of the aerial is finished, it must abide by these rules. Since the aerial has finished its animation, it is forced to go into fall, since it comes before the actual landing coding. This means that if the animation ends right as you would hit the ground, you will go into fall state instead of landing. From in the falling state is when you would land. Now, the thing is, the game registers landing and hitting the stage differently. When you hit the stage, you get your jumps back, which is what happens at the end of the aerial, however, you are still in falling, so you can input another double jump.

Hurrah!
Quick rewording for those of you who don't speak PSA, it means that when an aerial's animation (not the aerial itself) ends, the game thinks you're falling, even though you'd normally be landing. Since the game wants to say you're landing but thinks you're falling, you get your second jump renewed by "landing" and can use it immediately since you're still airborne, more or less. This is an oversimplification but it explains it well enough.

So I looked at Bowser's side-b. It seems to be a coding error. lol
Code:
Action0x11D
@1B308
SpecialSAirCatch, 
-----------|START|--------------------------
!Posture-03! 05030000
!Posture-04! 05040000
!Character Specific-01! 0C010000
Change Subaction - SpecialSAirCatch
Edge Sticky - 0x5, 
Set Air/Ground - 0xA, 
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=On Ground, 
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=Animation End, 
----------------------------|END|-----------
See how when he's on the ground he goes into Falling (E). That let's him do the exact thing I described to you happen.
I can't really make this much clearer, you get the same thingy going on with Bowser's Koopa Klaw, this time as a result of the coding of the move itself rather than its animation. I think it's kosher to call this an SJR, since it does renew your second jump, even though the mechanic is a bit different.

Credit for writing this article belongs to: Luxor
 

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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one pixel above the ground has some strange properties.. it's going to be hard to figure out why that (and few other things) works. It could be bad programing.
I know 3 things which don't work right a pixel above the ground.
- dead frame on jumps
- something with Yoshis double jump turnarround what I figured out
- Infinite Jump

and I don't know if they have anything in common, with the "no dead frame on jumps" code the other errors still occur.

and that 2-frame falling is weird as well and occur in the last frame before landing.
the 2 frame fall state is probably the key to this technique because it doesn't happen in normal cases.
perhaps the game things in the second fall frame "I touch the ground" and then you can double jump again.

In Melee debug mode you have something that shows a characters state like "falling" "jump" "stay" or something like that, perhaps if we had something like that in Brawl it would state "landing" on that second fall frame without being landed actually..
but we don't have the tools to figure that out yet right? :/
 

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
16,415
Alright so here are some fun things (BTW thanks for providing me the frame map Lux). Ganon's U-air has 44 frames of animation. It takes exactly 44 frames from Ganon's Double Jump to land. From there I made the conclusion that it was likely that the requirement animation end to falling state was included in the fighter.pac part. It indeed was. So I decided to investigate.

Code:
Subroutine@22BA0

-----------|START|--------------------------
!Controller-02! 07020000
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=Animation End, 
Subroutine - Offset=@B064, 
Subroutine - Offset=@B2CC, 
Change Action(Status) - StatusID=0x272C, ID=0x18, Requirement=On Ground, 
Additional Requirement - Requirement=Bit is Set, Variable=RA-Bit[30], 
Selective IASA - IASA=0x9, 
Concurrent Infinite Loop - 0x9, @22B70, 
----------------------------|END|-----------
Here is the subroutine in fighter.pac that contains the landing lag. It is called during an aerial while it is being performed. When the animation of the aerial is finished, it must abide by these rules. Since the aerial has finished its animation, it is forced to go into fall, since it comes before the actual landing coding. This means that if the animation ends right as you would hit the ground, you will go into fall state instead of landing. From in the falling state is when you would land. Now, the thing is, the game registers landing and hitting the stage differently. When you hit the stage, you get your jumps back, which is what happens at the end of the aerial, however, you are still in falling, so you can input another double jump.

Hurrah!
 

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
16,415
So I looked at Bowser's side-b. It seems to be a coding error. lol
Code:
Action0x11D
@1B308
SpecialSAirCatch, 
-----------|START|--------------------------
!Posture-03! 05030000
!Posture-04! 05040000
!Character Specific-01! 0C010000
Change Subaction - SpecialSAirCatch
Edge Sticky - 0x5, 
Set Air/Ground - 0xA, 
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=On Ground, 
Change Action - ID=0xE, Requirement=Animation End, 
----------------------------|END|-----------
See how when he's on the ground he goes into Falling (E). That let's him do the exact thing I described to you happen.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Messages
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Lux, do you think you could do a write up of that so we can publish it? Or do you not feel well enough versed in understanding that part of the code?
 

Luxor

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I think I understand it well enough, I'll edit it all up.

Also about that, will it become its own post in the Smash Lab Tactical thread, its own thread in Tactical, or part of Indigo's project-magazine?
 

rPSIvysaur

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The first one you listed off.

Make sure to edit the OP with the info so I can in turn do a proof of it.
 

Luxor

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What it needs now is every character's FH/SH/Buffered DJ data so we can run that by each character's aerials' animation durations to see what other "easy" SJR's exist. Those are the only ones that matter imo.

Oh yeah and updated, but half of me would rather find all the "easy" SJR's and then release a big useful post with actual gameplay implications.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Well, as for easy SJR's, there are two I know for G&W, one of them that A2ZOMG could definitely go into more detail about.

The first is Turtle out of G&W's upB (I think unbuffered, it's been a while since I checked it out), which gives an easy setup in timing towards a SJR.

The second is something A2ZOMG brought up recently, and I don't want to steal his thunder that much. It's pretty much G&W's fair ledgehopped, which gives just the right amount of timing into a SJR, cutting down his Fair's landing lag.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Lucas' DJ makes it stupidly impossible for him to have anything worth noting.

The only problem about this tech, is that it's not entirely practical in the fact that you're taking a risk by using your DJ on something that has extremely strict timing. Also, you can't buffer a double jump, on top of that, since you are double jumping, you also can't buffer the aerial. If you could buffer them, then things like Ganon's DJ>U-air would be a hell of a lot more practical. But still, some of them are worth noting and learning. Even if the timing is extremely arbitrary. (I did Ganon's Fullhop>DJ Dair>DJ Uair without frame advance earlier, so in some ways it may be practical) but the amount of mobility you giver yourself to work with is horrendous.

Anyways, there is not going to be anything that's clear cut and easy, rather than some stuff that may have to do with specials such as GaW's but even then they're bad.
 

A2ZOMG

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Mr Escalator, I thank you for reminding me of G&W's ledgehop autocanceled F-air. That is probably the most practical SJR in the game. Not only is it reasonably easy to pull off, it does increase G&W's options for getting up from the ledge in a very helpful way.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Aside from Bowser's klaw hop, it could very well be. rPSI is right about it being risky, though. If you mess up the timing you're gonna be forced to be in Fair landing lag.

Good thing the height is just right that it's easier to do the SJR than most aerials.
 

A2ZOMG

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The thing about G&W's F-air that helps its ability to SJR is I believe it lacks IASA frames before its animation end. So buffering something like a double jump airdodge after doing the SJR is pretty easy.

I don't have conclusive data for how much leniency you have to pull off the ledgehop autocancel F-air, but I would guess that G&W has approximately a 5 frame window after ledgedrop to initiate a frame perfect jump+F-air to get this perfect autocancel. The jump+F-air has to be frame perfect, but the ledgedrop beforehand does not.

I can personally pull it off consistently in real matches. I have matches against ViceGrip if you want to see good use of G&W's ledgehop F-air. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIphhtzD0g
 

rPSIvysaur

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There is no autocancel involved A2. Infact Gdubs has no late autocancel. nor does he have IASA (which actually does make the buffering easier). A lot of it has to do with positioning and where you start it at. =/
 

Luxor

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I've messed around with G&W's ledgehopped Fair before, actually, and the timing is not at all unreasonable to learn (not that I can do it consistently >.<).

And yes, G&W's Fair lacks true IASA/Allow interrupt, but that doesn't change how buffering things after it works unless I'm mistaken. I think it just means you have to wait for the animation to end rather than interrupt it yourself, correct?
 

A2ZOMG

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IASA frames evidently make a big difference. Since IASA frames bypass the rule of aerial move going into fall before you can do another action, you can't actually buffer an SJR for an aerial with IASA frames unless two conditions are met:

1. Your second jump is in fact already used (or you will jump when IASA frames permit it)
2. You aren't buffering an aerial attack, since the aerial attack will come out the first frame IASA allows it to, not when the animation actually ends.

So buffering an SJR + aerial attack on a move that has IASA before animation end is in fact a 1 frame window.
 

A2ZOMG

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Another thing that is very important to note.

When you are in normal fall state, you can hold down to drift through platforms without needing to land or platform drop. You cannot drift through platforms on autocancel frames. Your aerial animation has to have completed.

This is a very undocumented mechanic, but a very very important one especially since one of the most popular stages in the game is Battlefield.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Messing around, you know what's a really easy to do SJR? Ledge jumping G&W's Fair onto a platform. Easy as pie to hit the SJR window. For that matter, Bowser's Uair/Ike's Dair are also really easy to go into a SJR from ledge jumping onto battlefield's platforms.
 

A2ZOMG

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Personally I think ledgejumping slightly defeats the purpose of SJRing, since ledgejumps are significantly more telegraphed than ledgehops, and you maintain a midair jump regardless when ledgejumping. =S
 

Luxor

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Yeah Escalator (that's Mr. Escalator to me?), I think that since you retain your second jump those might just be DJs rather than SJRs. I'll look into them, though.
 

Veril

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the isjr only occurs during the first iasa frame of an aerial (landing frame = FAF = ISJR point). The only exceptions I'm aware of are Bowser's klaw and luigi's down-b

Known that **** like... since forever ago.

Posted about it too.

<.<
 

Yikarur

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but as you can see, the isjr doesn't occur in the first iasa frame, it occurs in the last animation frame.
 

Veril

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What it needs now is every character's FH/SH/Buffered DJ data so we can run that by each character's aerials' animation durations to see what other "easy" SJR's exist. Those are the only ones that matter imo.
http://www.mediafire.com/?wjgi5wavaqn that's the data you want except buffer DJ as it only actually matters for Bowser.

Another thing I already posted here but am reposting so you don't waste time redoing work.

but as you can see, the isjr doesn't occur in the first iasa frame, it occurs in the last animation frame.
If IASA < Animation end then the ISJR is completely pointless in that case.
 

A2ZOMG

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Veril, you can try doing Ganon's ISJR. It's RETARDEDLY hard to do because of the IASA frames on Ganon's U-air. If you're trying to buffer Jump+U-air SJR in the normal 10 frame window, you will get a U-air right before Ganon lands and your jump will not come out.
 

Mr. Escalator

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I'm fairly sure Bowser/Ike's weren't double jumps considering what moves I was using lol, but I was just eyeballing them, so feel free to take a thorough look into them if you'd like.

Veril, I heard from AA that kirby's side B also has a bigger window than a single frame.

Did anyone check out QA yet?
 
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