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Bowser's Match-Up Chart thread

t3h Icy

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As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Bowser's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.
 

Magik0722

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,088
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My opinions
Bowser 50-50
Captain Falcon 15-85
Doc 35-65
DK 2-8
Falco 1-9
Fox 1-9
Ganondorf 2-8
Jigglypuff 2-8
Kirby 6-4
Link 4-6
Marth 2-8
Mewtwo 5-5
Peach 1-9
Pichu 6-4
Samus 4-6
Sheik 1-99
Yoshi 5-5
 

t3h Icy

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DJN, what are your thoughts? I know you've gone over them a few times in the main thread, but has your opinions changed since?
 

Seikend

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Messages
415
In an attempt to get something going here I'll throw in my half baked opinions.

10-90 Falco, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Ylink, Link
20-80 Fox, Marth, Jiggs, CF, Peach, Ganon

And honestly not played enough of any other character to say anything remotely relevant.
 

DJ Nintendo

Smash Champion
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DJN, what are your thoughts? I know you've gone over them a few times in the main thread, but has your opinions changed since?
I totally forgot what I said in the main thread lol. To start some things off, I suck at numbering matchups so I'll just do this. Bowser's worst matchup is Peach, followed by Sheik, then Marth.

In case you or anyone else hasn't seen it yet, here's my Bowser set against Lambchops. Bowser vs. Falco is not that bad for Bowser, especially if you know how to get around lasers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSJE17bQAwA&feature=related

What makes Peach super hard?

Not challenging it. Just curious.
Peach is Bowser's worst matchup. Yes, its worse than Sheik. Bowser at least has some good setups, combos, and gimps against Sheik. Bowser can't combo Peach for ****. If Peach turnip camps him, especially if she's using a platform right above her for extra protection, its mad hard for Bowser to reach her. Her down smash destroys him and if she hits Bowser with a down smash at 0% or very low percent, he can get grabbed to continue getting combo'ed. She can float cancel combo him hard since he's such a fat ***. Since Bowser's recovery sucks, she can easily edgeguard him with either turnips or float cancel nairs. Bowser has mad trouble edgeguarding her and thats one of Bowser's main strengths. Bowser's two main kill moves on her are his up-tilt and his forward smash. Peach is the #1 character in the game that gets caught by Bowser's forward smash lol. One example is Peach approaching with a float to fair. Bowser backs up, with good spacing and timing avoids the fair and hits Peach lol.
 

KevinM

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I would say that Falcon is arguably Bowser's worst matchup.

I always listed it as

Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Fox
Falco

i mean in reality all of those characters **** him super hard, but Falcon has literally every tool needed to make bowser cry all the way back to a game he's good in.. ie none :\
 

Magik0722

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I would say that Falcon is arguably Bowser's worst matchup.

I always listed it as

Falcon
Peach
Sheik
Fox
Falco

i mean in reality all of those characters **** him super hard, but Falcon has literally every tool needed to make bowser cry all the way back to a game he's good in.. ie none :\
I think everyone would agree that those are bowsers worst matchups but they arent that much interchangable

Sheik / Peach for worst
Fox / Falco / Falcon for the next worst

Falcon is a matchup i have alot of experience in, so i dont think its as unwinnable as the other matchups. But i hate how EVERYTHING leads to knee
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Spiral Mountain
All these low tier characters telling me Sheik isn't their worst matchup

Mannnnnnnnn

Really makes me wonder if she'd even be considered the best if we did the tier list by matchups LOL
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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Messages
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i have a pretty solid bowser

i think sheik is totally his worst matchup

she can win almost by just repeatedly dsmashing, i flame canceled on a sheik once and they still got a dsmash off on me in the middle of the fire

not to mention standing still and ftilting after camping with needles for as long as they feel like

and lastly, cg to death

on another note, young link seems borderline unwinnable on like, any stage but yoshis story
 

DJ Nintendo

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i have a pretty solid bowser

i think sheik is totally his worst matchup

she can win almost by just repeatedly dsmashing, i flame canceled on a sheik once and they still got a dsmash off on me in the middle of the fire

not to mention standing still and ftilting after camping with needles for as long as they feel like

and lastly, cg to death

on another note, young link seems borderline unwinnable on like, any stage but yoshis story
Maybe for you but trust me, Sheik is not his worst matchup lol. Young Link is nowhere near unwinnable for Bowser. I know Bowser is a big character and Young Link can give him mad problems with items thrown everywhere. Although if you know how to maneuver around his projectiles well to get inside, then Bowser loves him lol. Fighting Young Link is an annoying matchup like almost any other matchup because you're using Bowser, but its not hard.

By the way, at high level play, Yoshi's Story is not that good for Bowser. He gets ****ed up there and can't live long since its a small stage with a small ceiling. Yoshi's Story just makes him look fast because a person doesn't have to worry about fortressing towards the ledge and fall. Also, of course jumping from the ledge makes you land on the platform with no lag. Bowser's best stages are Battlefield and Dream Land.
 

Laijin

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Young Link vs Bowser is like 80-20 or 90-10 in YL's favor
To me..thats pretty unwinnable.

I would really honestly like to understand how its possible for bowser to "maneuver" around his projectiles cause quite frankly, thats almost impossible for him to do since hes so huge and slow. Unlike most of characters, Bowser can't really get "inside" of Young Link unless Young Link actually approaches him. Otherwise, he can just camp all day and Bowser can't do much about it. His only hope is to counter pick a small stage cause bigger stages like Pokemon or Dreamland and it literally becomes unwinnable against a good Young Link player. Also Bowser kinda gets ***** on recovery. He can't really do anything about Young Link's bomb drop d-tilt(or d-air if he is high enough for the kill) for edge gaurding since his recovery just doesn't allow for good meteor canceling.
Overall, I honestly don't see how this is not an unwinnable match up for him. lol.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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i dunno man, dealing with needle camping just to get up close and deal with ftilts and cg's and a good wd backwards is pretty bleak

i'd have to see it to believe it, and i couldnt find any videos of you vs sheik
 

Seikend

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Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
415
This is why I don't say anything anymore. Forget it.
I hope this isn't just because people are questioning what you say :/. We all have our own beliefs and just you saying what you think is won't be enough to convert us to your opinion. We need a little information.

If I've completely misunderstood the situation, my apologies.


Aaaanyway. In order to get something going, I'll throw in my completely misinformed opinion on everything and we can all point out all it's ridiculous flaws. Sound good?


10-90 Falco, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Ylink, Link
20-80 Fox, Marth, Jiggs, CF, Peach, Ganon
30-70 Samus, DK, Dr. Mario, Mario, Luigi, Pika, G&W, Zelda, Roy, Ness
40-60 Mewtwo, Kirby Yoshi
Even Pichu
 

DJ Nintendo

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I posted before on why Peach is the worst matchup for Bowser so I'll post it again and also add some things about Sheik.

Peach is Bowser's worst matchup. Yes, its worse than Sheik. Bowser can't combo Peach for ****. If Peach turnip camps him, especially if she's using a platform right above her for extra protection, its mad hard for Bowser to reach her. If the Bowser tries to use the strategy of grabbing the turnips and throwing them back to her to help approach, it will barely help or no help at all. Bowser throws mad slow. Her down smash destroys him and if she hits Bowser with a down smash at 0% or very low percent, he can get grabbed to continue getting combo'ed. Bowser can't tech chase her since she's a super floaty. He also can't do anything out of forward throw claw because it pops her up too high. Bowser regular shield sucks and Peach's down smash can suck you in, so he ends up getting clipped alot. She can float cancel combo him hard since he's such a fat ***. Its tough sometimes to even land an up-B outta shield since she's can be mad homo approaching from the air all the time. I know this happens with other characters but it happens alot with Peach. When you manage to get an up-B outta shield on her, it'll do the initial hit but then clip her with another part of his up-B. Since Bowser's recovery sucks, she can easily edgeguard him with either turnips, float cancel nairs or pretty much whatever. Bowser has mad trouble edgeguarding her and thats one of Bowser's main strengths. Bowser's main kill moves on her are his up-tilt, down smash, and forward smash. Peach is the #1 character in the game that gets caught by Bowser's forward smash. One example is Peach approaching with a float to fair. Bowser backs up, with good spacing and timing avoids the fair and hits Peach.

As for Sheik, we all know how you can get chain grabbed like crazy. Although if the Sheik messes up the next down throw chain grab by even the slightest frame, the Bowser can jump out. I've played plenty of Sheiks, including M2K's to verify this. The best way of getting out is of course DI'ing directly above Sheik and trying to time your jump perfectly. I know its hard to approach Sheik since Sheik can just f-tilt and fair all day. Although its not as bad as Peach. Bowser getting edgeguarded by Sheik is pretty gay too because of needles and such. Now Bowser at least has some good combos and setups against Sheik. Bowser can tech chase Sheik, which is pretty convenient. If Bowser gets Sheik with a claw, does the forward throw and the Sheik has a good amount of percent (lets say about 60% on Yoshi's Story before the claw grab), Bowser can get an up-air kill after the forward throw claw pops Sheik up if double jumped after the forward throw claw at perfect frames. Sheik cannot get out in time if done correctly. This combo setup also works on Marth. Bowser can also gimp Sheik in even two moves if done correctly and it also depends on Sheiks recovery. If Bowser claw grabs Sheik from the ledge at 0% to very low percent, the Bowser does the back throw then proceeds to take Sheiks second jump (one way is jumping off stage and fairing Sheik's second jump), then grab ledge again and Sheik won't make it. We all know Sheik's recovery isn't that good when you force her to up-B back into the stage while you're grabbing ledge. Since Bowser's main strength is edgeguarding and he hits mad hard, edgeguarding Sheik is definitely helpful for him. A couple options is just grabbing ledge and either bairing or claw grabbing Sheik and doing the back throw immediately so they probably won't DI. Back throwing immediately after getting a claw grab and they don't DI because its so fast is the main reason WarriorKnight and I don't bite most of the time when getting the claw grab.

Sorry I don't have videos of me playing Sheiks or Peachs in singles. I rarely ever end up getting recorded. Although this is my feedback on why Peach is Bowser's worst matchup and not Sheik. Sheik is still and will always be an extremely horrible matchup though. As a quick thing for the Young Link matchup, its possible to maneuver around the million projectiles and end up getting through to Young Link. I've played many Young Link players over the years that range from really aggressive to extremely patient and campy to just plain "I'm never going to approach you and just throw projectiles this whole match". Trust me, its possible and its not as bad as you think. You just have to know the matchup and have good maneuvering capabilities with Bowser.

So thats my input. WarriorKnight and I talk all the time and play once in a while and we agree on everything since we've been playing the highest level of Bowser for years and have vast knowledge with the game and matchups, especially me since I know more than he does. I was even thinking about bringing back Bowser when I return to playing in tournament again. Who knows? I hope this helps.
 

Seikend

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Messages
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Thanks very much. In my head I've always thought of the matchups from a perspective as if both players were playing perfectly, which I guess is silly and unrealistic. So basically, while playing against either it's extremely hard to get an opportunity to punish onstage, but when punishing, Sheik gets hit a lot harder than peach. And edgeguarding is super easy against shiek, super hard against peach.

Yeah, I'm perfectly happy to accept that.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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i actually did play a bit of bowser vs young link last night, and it wasnt as bad as i remembered, despite being very difficult

and yeah i can see what youre saying now, i didnt know the klaw to uair worked on sheik and really didnt expect it to, i guess i just imagined peach's slightly slower mobility made it a little easier to just hit her with fairs, but turnips would really make that difficult
 

KevinM

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So again to return to what I said.

I would group it like

Falcon/Peach
Sheik/Fox/Falco

in descending order for top tiers.

Me and DJ tend to disagree because on the first two but there ya go.
 
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