Doc's Match-Up Chart thread

t3h Icy · Sep 17, 2010

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Doc's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

otg · Sep 17, 2010

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents here.

Realistically all of these matchups could be +/- 5, I'm just listing my current opinion.

Fox: 40/60
Falco: 40/60
Jiggs: 40/60
Marth: 35/65
Sheik: 35/65
Peach: 40/60
Falcon: 40/60
Icies: 45/55

After that I don't really know or care to comment. I've never played a **** Ganon (tipman doesn't do **** nowadays) and I have a hard time gauging the Samus matchup because DJN is kinda janky with everyone, so I don't know if thats Samus practice or just him.

Now that I look at it, a lot of those 40/60's could easily be argued to 35/65, and the Jiggs matchup could be argued closer to even (and I know certain people woudl love to say it's 60/40 in docs favor, but I just don't buy that nowadays). Icies could be even, idk who cares really?

Also, I think the Spacies matchups might need some analysis. I could easily see either one of them being argued for 35/65. With laser/platform/bair camping it's pretty hard to deal with, Fox in particular with guaranteed Waveshine -> usmash. I know Dogy claims that he hasn't seen anyone do that consistently besides chopz iirc... well you need to move to tristate. Not to say Doc doesn't have gimmicks against them, its just another big uphill battle like vs. the other top tiers if they decide to play gay.

DJ Nintendo · Sep 17, 2010

*Bowser subscribes

eighteenspikes · Sep 18, 2010

otg said:
Fox: 40/60
Falco: 40/60
Jiggs: 40/60
Marth: 35/65
Sheik: 35/65
Peach: 40/60
Falcon: 40/60
Icies: 45/55

i know i have some controversial mu opinions (0/100 luigi) but imma be for real here. I kinda agree with this, only tweaking I would do is move space pets down to 35, marth and peach up to 45/55, and samus is DEAD ****ING 50/50. I will argue doc/samus being even to the death so just agree with me here.

Strong Badam · Sep 18, 2010

I can see Peach up to 45, however I can't see Marth any better than 40/60, personally.

eighteenspikes · Sep 18, 2010

With good DI and spacing (aka dont jump into tippers or get above marth) he has a really hard time killing doc. Marth also has no projectiles, is relatively easy for doc to combo and has the least recovery options out of the top two tiers (ledgedrop bairs own him for free). Granted that sword is ****all hard to get past but if he had less range or no disjointed hitboxes i'd tell you with a straight face it's docs advantage.

VGmasta · Sep 18, 2010

Doc vs Marth: 30:70

Doc's ENTIRE offense (except the projectile) just gets shieldgrabbed because Marth's grab outranges even Doc's f-tilt (Doc's longest ranged move in the game). Marth's grabs lead to gimps at early percents if you don't have the reflexes to DI out of the throws. It's like trying to avoid upthrow -> Rest from Jiggs as a spacie. Even if Marth doesn't gimp off the grab at early percents, the grab -> upthrow at later percents lead to Doc getting up-aired all night long helplessly since he falls like a feather.

If Doc gets grabbed by the edge, Marth throwing Doc off the edge is perfectly viable. Now doesn't Marth have AMAZING edgeguarding vs Doc?! Doc can't really side-B illusion to or above the edge really fast like the spacies to try to sneak past Marth (Not that that's all that fast either). But Doc's only options for recovery is to waste his air jump to get on the stage (RISKY), air jump to sweetspot ledgegrab (covered easily by Marth's d-tilt), or recover really low and attempt to Up-B to the ledge (Can be d-tilted/or f-smashed by Marth).

Now if Marth covered any of those options just once or twice, isn't Doc dead? Sounds like amazing edgeguarding to me. Marth didn't even need to leave the stage, and two of her attacks covered all of Doc's options of recovery. And to top it all off, Marth doesn't even get punished directly for missing the edgeguard. So its a win-win for Marth, and a tie or loss for Doc.

EDITED:
^^ F THAT, MARTH IS BROKEN
70:30 Marth advantage!!

otg · Sep 19, 2010

Whenever I play the Doc v. Marth matchup I don't ever really try to edgeguard doc. I just zone him out with like 5 moves (dtilt, ftilt, fair, nair, jab) and then whenever I get a chance for a grab I uthrow cause it's not like Doc can realistically defend himself on the way down. Pretty ****ing effective.

Don't be recklessly aggressive with your combos and stay reactive to the Doc and yeah, Marth ***** the pants off him.

KirbyKaze · Sep 19, 2010

Marth can hit Doc with moves when Doc is offstage and Doc can't do much because apparently swords > pills in this game.

This game makes no sense.

Siglemic · Sep 20, 2010

sooooo doc's worst matchup is fox or sheik ?

otg · Sep 20, 2010

It's probably Sheik, tho any of them could realistically be argued as his worst.

unknown522 · Sep 20, 2010

doc matchups:

fox: 35
falco: 35
jiggs: 35

sheik: 35
marth: 35

falcon: 35
peach: 45
Ganon: 50
ICs: 35

Samus: 50
doc: 50
mario: 50
pikachu: 55
luigi: 45
DK: 55 (or 60)

link: 60
YL: 60
zelda: 60
G&W: 60
m2: 65

roy: 80
bowser: 80
yoshi: 70
pichu: 85
ness: 80
kirby: 80

eighteenspikes · Sep 20, 2010

i could get behind that list, esp the luigi 45, but icies 35?? other changes but not too crazy: id put zelda at 50, yl/link might need more investigation (ive heard they counter doc, and i got **** on by lee's YL at FC6), id lower roy to 60, ness and kirby to 75, move pichu and keep bowser at 80 cause imo theyre docs easiest matchups. if you heartily disagree w/these then lets discuss

otg · Sep 20, 2010

Yeah as much as I want to disagree with Unknowns list, it is pretty good/perfect. I can't comment on a lot of the low tier matchups tho I do think that Doc v. Pika is probably closer to like 65:35 or maybe 60:40. I'm also not so sure that Jiggs and Icies are 35:65, I would argue both closer to 40:60.

This list is pretty good, I think we'll be one of the only character boards with realistic matchup values. Y. Link is apparently only 40-60 vs. Sheik now, guess he needs to move above Doc on the tier list now.

I have to comment how interesting it is that Unknown feels Fox v. Doc is 35-65 while Raynex claims on the Fox boards its 45-55. Maybe meet in the middle here?

KirbyKaze · Sep 20, 2010

Young Link poops on Sheik.

True story.

I just can't do anything when he decides to camp. It's like, his bombs beat my moves. And I have no combo game.

RaynEX sucks vs bad characters.

Dogysamich · Sep 20, 2010

did it really get that bad in the main thread?

t3h Icy · Sep 20, 2010

Yep. Have any of your thoughts changed or would you rather step out of this project?

RaynEX · Sep 21, 2010

otg said:
Yeah as much as I want to disagree with Unknowns list, it is pretty good/perfect. I can't comment on a lot of the low tier matchups tho I do think that Doc v. Pika is probably closer to like 65:35 or maybe 60:40. I'm also not so sure that Jiggs and Icies are 35:65, I would argue both closer to 40:60.

This list is pretty good, I think we'll be one of the only character boards with realistic matchup values. Y. Link is apparently only 40-60 vs. Sheik now, guess he needs to move above Doc on the tier list now.

I have to comment how interesting it is that Unknown feels Fox v. Doc is 35-65 while Raynex claims on the Fox boards its 45-55. Maybe meet in the middle here?

6-4 seems reasonable. I think that was one part of Sveet's list I should have edited too. Fox's advantage in this MU can't be justified as 55-45.

KirbyKaze said:
RaynEX sucks vs bad characters.

oh whatever

unknown522 · Sep 21, 2010

otg said:
I have to comment how interesting it is that Unknown feels Fox v. Doc is 35-65 while Raynex claims on the Fox boards its 45-55. Maybe meet in the middle here?

It's cuz my doc is beast son

But anyways, doc has a lot of terrible matchups. People just suck vs doc.

Or maybe I'm just good at the matchup?

otg · Sep 21, 2010

unknown522 said:
But anyways, doc has a lot of terrible matchups. People just suck vs doc.

Or maybe I'm just good at the matchup?

It's probably both. I like to think I"m pretty good at the matchup too (surprisingly a lot of people play Doc in tristate atm).

His matchups are bad but then all I see is shroomed ****** face and I'm skeptical.

unknown522 · Sep 21, 2010

yeah, he's pretty good.

KirbyKaze · Sep 21, 2010

shroomed beat ss

get ready for a wave of falcon doc is even

probably from the falcons

KirbyKaze · Sep 21, 2010

unknown522 said:
Or maybe I'm just good at the matchup?

You play Doc now? Since when?

VGmasta · Sep 21, 2010

KirbyKaze said:
shroomed beat ss

get ready for a wave of falcon doc is even

probably from the falcons

I know right, lol. And get ready for another wave about how Doc beats Marth because Shroomed beasted a Marth player that almost beat DaShizWiz at an earlier tournament. LOL at "player A beats player B with these characters" matchup logic.

KirbyKaze said:
You play Doc now? Since when?

I saw Unknown use Doc like two years ago I think.

KirbyKaze · Sep 21, 2010

CHARACTER BEATS CHARACTER WITH MOVE

I know Unknown uses Doc I'm just teasing him

Winston · Sep 21, 2010

So Doc is like 35 vs every character? ****.

Also I think Doc/Luigi is slight slight doc or even if anyone wants to argue about that

otg · Sep 21, 2010

Doc is 35 vs. every character because unlike the other character boards we are realistic about what our matchups are like at TOP level play. Realistically, a lot of luigi's matchups are probably 35-65 vs. many characters as well, but people dont go by top level play, they go by what they see.

RaynEX · Sep 21, 2010

Gustav Wind said:
So Doc is like 35 vs every character? ****.

Also I think Doc/Luigi is slight slight doc or even if anyone wants to argue about that

They can't ALL be 35. We're talking about mainly the top tiers v Doc right?

KirbyKaze · Sep 21, 2010

Kirby beats Doc 65-35, it's true.

otg · Sep 21, 2010

KirbyKaze said:
Kirby beats Doc 65-35, it's true.

Worst ****ing matchup in the game.

VGmasta · Sep 21, 2010

unknown522 said:
doc matchups:
jiggs: 35
sheik: 35
marth: 35
falcon: 35
Ganon: 50
roy: 80

I'll never understand how Jiggs would have a 35:65 advantage on Doc. Jiggs might beat Doc, but I don't think it's an outrageous advantage. it's gotta be 40:60 at worst.

vs Sheik is 35:65 Sheik advantage. She's gay.

vs Marth is 30:70 Marth advantage. Probably gayer than Sheik.

vs Falcon is at least 40:60 Falcon advantage. (Might be 35:65) Falcon's just too fast for slow fatass Dr. Mario to even do anything to keep Falcon under pressure until you can close enough to space b-airs at Falcon on the ground. Other than that, all Doc can really do is bait Falcon since he has to approach eventually to ever get anything done.

At least the pills actually control a lot of how Jiggs has to fight Dr. Mario. Sheik, Marth, and Falcon can almost neglect Doc's projectile. Can't imagine Jiggs being more advantaged than 40:60.

vs Ganon: I still argue that to be 55:45 Ganon's advantage. Ganon can't neglect the pills, but Doc can't neglect Ganon's abilities to get around his pills and get punished for it. Doc and Ganon are both gimmicky characters in my opinion. But doc can't afford to fall for more than 4 of Ganon's gimmicks before Doc loses a stock.

vs Roy: c'mon 80:20?! I don't think Roy's that bad. he's got the same attack range and grab range as MARTH. Actually his attack speed seems faster than Marth's (I'll research the frame data and clarify it for myself later). Roy combos Doc and actually gimps Doc with the gimmicks of his own.

So,
Sheik advantage---35:65
Marth advantage---30:70
Falcon advantage--40:60 (maybe 35:65)
Jiggs advantage----40:60
Ganon advantage--45:55 (RockCrock's Ganon 25:75 lol)
Roy advantage------NOT AS EXXAGERATED AS 80:20, hell naw! (y'all need some harriettheguy experience)

EDIT:
I MADE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE ABOUT THE MARTH MATCHUP

DJ Nintendo · Sep 21, 2010

This thread lol.

RaynEX · Sep 22, 2010

DJ Nintendo said:
This thread lol.

iuno

i kind of think discussion involving a character's match-ups and how they affect said character's progression and potential is kind of useful. Maybe not to most people, but to some.

:dizzy:

anyways. Kirby's hammer > Doc

Dogysamich · Sep 22, 2010

DJ Nintendo said:
This thread lol.

unknown522 · Sep 22, 2010

alright, MM.

All my characters vs your docs.

I'll show you why those matchups are bad. And how useless camping pills are vs good characters.

VGmasta · Sep 22, 2010

Dogy, Mario's advantaged? And Fox is even? Why?

otg · Sep 22, 2010

unknown522 said:
alright, MM.

All my characters vs your docs.

I'll show you why those matchups are bad. And how useless camping pills are vs good characters.

****, I wanna see this recorded. You guys are literally on polar opposites in terms of how you think Doc's matchups go. Sadly, my $'s on unknown as much as I want Dogy to win.

eighteenspikes · Sep 23, 2010

vgmastaricky said:
And Fox is even? Why?

chaingrabs brah! 0-d err stock!

GeoBound · Sep 23, 2010

Chaingrabbing solves all problems, dohoho

VGmasta · Sep 23, 2010

eighteenspikes said:
chaingrabs brah! 0-d err stock!

Yeah, but isn't that only great on Final D that everyone bans vs Doc anyway?! I can see it halfway working on Dreamland 64 and Poke Stadium standard formation. Everywhere else platform interrupts the chaingrabs.

Doc's Match-Up Chart thread

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