Falco's Match-Up Chart thread

t3h Icy · Sep 17, 2010

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Falco's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

n1000 · Sep 17, 2010

Let's start this out in an organized fashion:

Falco's matchups
EDIT: taken from the current (9/17/2010) MU chart.

Fox: 50
Sheik: 55
Falco: 50
Marth: 50
Jiggs: 50
CF: 65
Peach: 45

To be refined:

Ganon: +1
ICs: =
Samus: =
Doc: +1
Mario: +1
Luigi: +2
DK: +2
Pikachu: +2
Young Link: +3
Link: +3
Zelda: +2
GnW: +2
Mewtwo: +3
Yoshi: +3
Roy: +2
Ness: +3
Kirby: +3
Bowser: +3
Pichu: +3

If the board agrees I think we should discuss any disagreement with the six match-ups which have been given precise (0-100) enumerations for a few days before refining Falco's advantages against the rest of the cast. What do you think?

TheGoat · Sep 17, 2010

n1000 said:
Let's start this out in an organized fashion:

Falco's matchups

CF: 65

60:40 tops.

Dr Peepee · Sep 17, 2010

Mmm hmm, if I had to pick one matchup to be against in the list of ratios up there, it'd be Falcon.
60/40 tops as well.

Falcon has good range(Nair/Bair/Uair in particular) where it counts and has responses to Falco's laser game(Nair over lower/raptor boost over higher lasers for example). He has powerful punishments on Falco and a variety of ways to edgeguard Falco.

I don't know what to argue here really but I guess I'll see how the discussion goes.

JPOBS · Sep 17, 2010

i personally dont think falco loses to peach

Mogwai · Sep 17, 2010

I still think Falco beats Peach, :laugh:

I also think Falco beats Marth and Fox though, so yea... I just have a very high opinion of my character.

X1-12 · Sep 17, 2010

all good, but make peach 50-50

G.L. · Sep 17, 2010

falco vs marth and falco vs fox is ever so slightly in falcos favor but i can see how it would be hard to say that

X1-12 · Sep 17, 2010

in the marth thread for this they are saying marth beats falco 60-40, we need to say falco beats marth 60-40 so that they even out at 50-50 k?

Mogwai · Sep 17, 2010

my position has always been that those numbers mean absolutely nothing and are stupid and I wish no one would use them ever, lol.

but seriously, I've felt like Falco beats Marth for a couple years now. Lasers are too good, and when you learn to combo Marth correctly he's really easy combo bait.

t3h Icy · Sep 17, 2010

Dr Peepee said:
Mmm hmm, if I had to pick one matchup to be against in the list of ratios up there, it'd be Falcon.
60/40 tops as well.

Falcon has good range(Nair/Bair/Uair in particular) where it counts and has responses to Falco's laser game(Nair over lower/raptor boost over higher lasers for example). He has powerful punishments on Falco and a variety of ways to edgeguard Falco.

I don't know what to argue here really but I guess I'll see how the discussion goes.

Well Mogwai and yourself have done the huge threads on Falco match-ups and general data. Do you have any numerical opinions on the match-ups, or do you not view them that way?

TheCrimsonBlur · Sep 17, 2010

X1-12 said:
in the marth thread for this they are saying marth beats falco 60-40, we need to say falco beats marth 60-40 so that they even out at 50-50 k?

We'll just say 70-30!

:o

unknown522 · Sep 17, 2010

IMO:

vs fox = 55
vs sheik = 50
vs peach = 55

Pretty much agree with the rest

Dark Hart · Sep 17, 2010

I kinda think that Peach is even...

Dr Peepee · Sep 18, 2010

Pretty confident in....

Fox: 50-50(I guess)

Falco: 50-50

Marth: 55-45

Falcon: 60-40

Less confident in....

Puff: 50-50

Peach: 55-45 Peach

No idea for Sheik.

I'm aight enough with the rest of the ratios.

t3h Icy · Sep 18, 2010

Falcon 60/40?
Fox 55/45-50/50?
Marth 55/45-45/55 (somewhere around there)
Jigglypuff 50/50?
Peach 55/45-45/55

Just gathering everything.

TheCrimsonBlur said:
We'll just say 70-30!

:o

XD

Kason Birdman · Sep 19, 2010

hmmm. ok i guess ill give my opinions.

fox - 55:45
peach - 50:50
jiggs... eh.. unsure on this one.. but i would put it at 50:50 or 45:55
sheik - 55:45
marth - 50:50
falcon - 60:40

Blistering Speed · Sep 19, 2010

t3h Icy said:
Falcon 60/40?
Fox 55/45-50/50?
Marth 55/45-45/55 (somewhere around there)
Jigglypuff 50/50?
Peach 55/45-45/55

Just gathering everything.

XD

Fox 50/50.
Marth 55/45.
Jiggs 50/50.
Peach 55-45.

People underrate Falco often in matchups. They look at their character's ability to combo and edgeguard him and think ****, that MUST be 50-50. In doing so, they partially ignore the absoloute lameness of some of Falco's strengths.

Dr Peepee · Sep 28, 2010

I see most people exaggerate Falco's strengths these days. They don't understand that lasers are only useful sometimes and using them in the first place is a big committment at a higher level. They also think Falco is going to get crazy 0-deaths every time he touches someone. While it happens sometimes, it's very unlikely that there will be matches(even vs FF'ers) where Falco will kill off of one opening the vast majority of the time. Sure he has some guaranteed stuff to a point(like vs Fox Dair shines to 40%~) but after that you have to start tricking people to DI a certain way or just drop the combo and look for another way in if you want to finish someone off/start something new.

Basically, I don't like how much people john about Falco lol. He's realllly good, and he's been developing a lot as a character lately. I just think other characters need to tighten up on their counters to some modern Falco strategies so that we see the full punishment Falco can receive for committing to a bad laser or some other mistake.

Mogwai, I know you disagree with me mad hard on this, and I'd be interesting in seeing/discussing with you your opinion on Falco.

Mogwai · Sep 28, 2010

I think Starbird is a pretty cool guy. Eh shoots lasers and doesn't afraid of anything.

ponylover123456789 · Sep 28, 2010

real talk PP. love you givin it to the people straight.
If you watch a lot of falcos and how they end up getting ***** (even super smart ones) its cause they use lasers. shl approach gets ***** too much these days.

Also when did falco peach suddenly become 50-50? I know falco supposedly got better at it but.. still peaches favor definitely. you guys have no options no good counterpicks. bf maybe..

Mogwai · Sep 28, 2010

ever see Falco vs. Peach on Rainbow Cruise? it's also good for Falco on Stadium.

but basically if you're not a tard, Peach has a really hard time getting in on you. She also sits in hitstun forever so if you're fast with combos you can really abuse her. I think it's better than even just because the ball is in peach's court the whole match. she has to bear the burden of making something happen and punishing extremely hard, whereas Falco dictates the pace of the match and chips away at her. Incidentally, this is pretty much why I think Falco beats everyone. No one matches Falco's camping and defensive options and thus everyone is pretty much reliant on Falco making a mistake and making him pay for it dearly.

ponylover123456789 · Sep 28, 2010

by camping and defensive options... you mean lasering and having one of the worst recoveries in the game? Or the fact that you get combo ***** by half the cast when you get touched???

And for peach to get past shl.. she float cancels so her feet are about two falco body lengths over the ground. Now falcos options include: uh, sh uair? yeah right..

And there's this thing called powershielding an approach which a lot of people (even scrubs) can do to get free grabs.

Lol oh yeah and his combos on peach: dair>dair and dair> bair. At low percents you get shine> whatever as well. Man falco is so good

Kason Birdman · Sep 28, 2010

@ Peepee.

Honestly, Falco is pree ****ing good.
I see what you are saying and I do agree he is quite overhyped and there are a lot of unnecessary johns about him. I think hes similar to jiggs in the way people should be adapting to the way they both play. and learning the matchup instead of *****ing.

Dr Peepee · Sep 29, 2010

Mogwai said:
ever see Falco vs. Peach on Rainbow Cruise? it's also good for Falco on Stadium.

but basically if you're not a tard, Peach has a really hard time getting in on you. She also sits in hitstun forever so if you're fast with combos you can really abuse her. I think it's better than even just because the ball is in peach's court the whole match. she has to bear the burden of making something happen and punishing extremely hard, whereas Falco dictates the pace of the match and chips away at her. Incidentally, this is pretty much why I think Falco beats everyone. No one matches Falco's camping and defensive options and thus everyone is pretty much reliant on Falco making a mistake and making him pay for it dearly.

So, it's stages that push the matchup in Falco's favor for you, or moreso the fact that you believe he controls the pace of the match?

Also, just because Falco forces someone to play the game differently doesn't inherently mean that he outright beats them to me. If Falco forces Peach to float over lasers, then he probably has to retreat under a platform to make sure she doesn't float on top of him and hit him(lasering is a bigger commitment than people think in my opinion, and that's part of why I think people aren't that good vs Falco yet: they haven't made him really question that commitment in any matchup except maybe Puff and Amsah's Sheik lol). Anyway, this means Falco loses stage control in order to be safe from Peach, but it's not like Peach has to immediately fall into him then or anything. Sure Falco has the gun, but he doesn't have total control because of it to me. If Peach can mix in FC aerial'ing in on Falco or just falling and shielding/Powershielding to keep Falco honest or use a turnip to keep Falco contained then I think she can take advantage of her positional advantage well.

I feel like other characters(at least the higher tiered ones) all have their own answers to Falco's lasers and his control as well as significant punishes on him(obviously) to keep the match free of worry about who is going to punish harder(what with him getting CG'd and gimped and comboed so much and all).

To not be taken out of context:

I don't think Falco is like terrible or trash or has a ton of bad matchups or anything(I know he's very good and his lasers are a crucial part of that) but I believe that people haven't learned to deal with all of his newer stuff so he seems a lot tougher than he should be. It also probably doesn't help that there are several Falcos pushing the metagame along right now so that people see him and don't see his new stuff being countered and thinking he's amazing.

Maybe that's just me though.

JPOBS · Sep 29, 2010

The thing about falco is, like PP is saying, there are several really top level falco's all playing currently that really show falco off, and to me, that speaks to the fact that he IS such a great character that you can have multiple people be completely bonkers withhim.

unlike puff who has like 2 players, kinda makes me think its just the players, but i look at falco and think he must be really good if so many people at seeing success with him.

PP what sorts of "newer stuff" are you referring to? you really think falco's metagame has overall improved recently? just curious.

Dr Peepee · Sep 29, 2010

JPOBS said:
The thing about falco is, like PP is saying, there are several really top level falco's all playing currently that really show falco off, and to me, that speaks to the fact that he IS such a great character that you can have multiple people be completely bonkers withhim.

unlike puff who has like 2 players, kinda makes me think its just the players, but i look at falco and think he must be really good if so many people at seeing success with him.

PP what sorts of "newer stuff" are you referring to? you really think falco's metagame has overall improved recently? just curious.

Nonono, I think Falco's popularity and creativity and speed and combos draw in more people so naturally he's gonna get pushed farther(he's gotten pushed farthest since Brawl came out since everyone wanted to be cool after that imo). I don't like basing any raising of Falco's potential on the fact that more people are good with him for that reason. Maybe if we had a bunch of good Marths and Peaches(for example) then I'd be more comfortable with that argument though.

It's not really recent improvement so much as everyone flocking to the characters that are cool now, with Falco leading the way in that department I guess. This seemed to start up after Brawl, and continued to pick up with Melee's revivial. Playing defensively and exploiting more glaring character flaws seem to be neglected for speed and all that, and I think that's part of why we don't see much Marth anymore, and why we haven't come up with a better straetgy vs Puff yet. Also, since Falco controls the bottom part of the stage so well, people don't like(or may be uncomfortable with) approaching the character differently(with means of powershielding or platform camping or shield camping or whatever).

I probably didn't say that as well as I wanted to, but just know that I don't these developments are recent(I just haven't thought about talking about them until today) and that people don't know how/don't want to take the time to fight Falco correctly. Oh, and I dislike representation arguments for Falco when we don't have a large player base to work from and Falco is a more popular character.

JPOBS · Sep 29, 2010

Hmm, i agree that Falco is hugely popular and leads to his game getting pushed farther, however, i have to disagree slightly with the notion that people dont know how to play against falco.

Falco has been one of the most popular characters for years, since about 04/05 when forward and Bombsoldier really popularized his game with flashy combos. and as such, people have had to learn to fight for more than half a decade, and it snot as if theres a lack of practice, there are falco's EVERYWHERE. I feel like people have had more than enough time to adjust to his matchup and learn to approach him differently than other matchups.

This seems especially true when i consider the downfall of sheik and marth in the metagame. They were dominant (both quantatatively and qualitatively) in competitive play from the very early days, from the ken/azen up throguh the m2k/KDJ era. They dominated for years but the last couple years, people have learned the matchups in and out and now, those two chars arent nearly as dominant.

But then look at falco, he's been prominent/dominant in the scene for almost just as long, so i cant accept the fact that people just flat out havent learn to fight him yet, especially when there are so many falco's around. It leads me to believe that he must really just be THAT good of a character.
Jiggs on the other hand, is qualitatively dominant (has been winning everything for ~3 years) but not quantitatively, there are almost no jiggs to practice against, so i can see why its reasonable that anti-jiggs measures havent been fully developed yet, but for falco, i cant imagine this being the case.

Mogwai · Sep 29, 2010

basically I believe Falco, moreso than any other character, is capable of dictating the pace of the match and playing a reactionary style. He poses a problem that the opponent must be proactive in dealing with. I understand that lasers aren't as safe as many would like to assume, but if you shoot from across the stage, you're putting the ball in their court. From there, you're the one who has control and they're the one who needs to do some fancy footwork to turn the situation to their favor. *shrugs* I just think this game favors the defender and I think Falco forces the opponent to be the aggressor.

Dr Peepee · Sep 29, 2010

JPOBS said:
Hmm, i agree that Falco is hugely popular and leads to his game getting pushed farther, however, i have to disagree slightly with the notion that people dont know how to play against falco.

Falco has been one of the most popular characters for years, since about 04/05 when forward and Bombsoldier really popularized his game with flashy combos. and as such, people have had to learn to fight for more than half a decade, and it snot as if theres a lack of practice, there are falco's EVERYWHERE. I feel like people have had more than enough time to adjust to his matchup and learn to approach him differently than other matchups.

This seems especially true when i consider the downfall of sheik and marth in the metagame. They were dominant (both quantatatively and qualitatively) in competitive play from the very early days, from the ken/azen up throguh the m2k/KDJ era. They dominated for years but the last couple years, people have learned the matchups in and out and now, those two chars arent nearly as dominant.

But then look at falco, he's been prominent/dominant in the scene for almost just as long, so i cant accept the fact that people just flat out havent learn to fight him yet, especially when there are so many falco's around. It leads me to believe that he must really just be THAT good of a character.
Jiggs on the other hand, is qualitatively dominant (has been winning everything for ~3 years) but not quantitatively, there are almost no jiggs to practice against, so i can see why its reasonable that anti-jiggs measures havent been fully developed yet, but for falco, i cant imagine this being the case.

I'm gonna start off by saying it's not NEARLY as bad as people not knowing how to fight Puff, but it's there(the inability to fight him, that is). I just feel like some concepts have yet to be worked out that can allow people to take better advantage of Falco's weaknesses. Now, there is some **** stuff already out vs Falco(like that **** aerial DI manipulation on Fox's FH/DJ Nair and stuff like that) but I think more basic things should be exploited as well(such as transitions from defense to offense).

I think Sheik and Marth fell because all of those people leading their metagame(save a very small few) quit or stopped caring as much after Brawl. No one really learned to push their character without those higher players to learn from, and everyone else was flocking to spacies then/now more than ever, which created this stigma that Marth and Sheik were too "gay" and not fun to play.

*Obviously this isn't universally true, but I see it a lot more now than when I started playing in 07.

Anyway, I think Marth and Sheik are both amazing characters, but they need some innovator(Marth more than sheik here) that will put a fresh/more up to date perspective on their character and show that each has the tools to fight in the modern metagame(Amsah ****** at pound shows Sheik still has it, but that's a rather minor thing overall in the span of a couple years I guess).

And for Jiggz, I see her being "mega gay" to the people, so they won't want to play her, especially since she's not fast(and therefore not "fun") to a lot of people. Just seems to follow that people aren't going to want to pick her up/stick with her if that's the case(puff players get a lot of crap, so that's why I say "stick with her.")

@Mogwai: Hmmm well I think the laser is only really useful(at least as far as forcing opponents to be aggressors) at long range like you said, and once they get close you have to be a lot more careful, and this is why it's tough to really camp someone/totally force their approach with Falco. I understand your opinion now though and I respect it. Thanks Mogwai.

everlasting yayuhzz · Sep 29, 2010

Dr Peepee said:
Pretty confident in....

Fox: 50-50(I guess)

Falco: 50-50

Marth: 55-45

Falcon: 60-40

Less confident in....

Puff: 50-50

Peach: 55-45 Peach

No idea for Sheik.

I'm aight enough with the rest of the ratios.

Holy **** kevin you are so wrong

Falco vs Falco is NOT even. It's definitely 90-10 Falco.

Mogwai · Sep 29, 2010

I mean, I'm clearly at least a tier below you in actual skill at this game so I might be missing some of the nuance of higher level pre-engagement push and pull, but I've always seen lasers as a tool that lets Falco pick his spots for engaging, which when coupled with a brutal defensive game (he's good great move speed, good hitboxes and priority and one of the best crouch cancel games in the game) and a brutal offensive game (2nd best shield pressure game in super theory brothers melee, probably the best shield pressure game in practice, also incredible anti-CC [dair] and relatively safe combo starters that lead to high reward combos on the entire cast). The thing that holds Falco back is that mistakes with him are particularly costly. When you stop making mistakes, I see absolutely nothing that should stop Falco from being the best character in the game.

Jiggs players don't get enough credit. I say this time and time again, but if all the spacies sitting in 5-32nd at nationals could pick Jiggs and win, they would, but that stupid character is hard to play vs. top level competition. Love them or hate them, the level of precision and tight decision making that Mang0 and HBox display time and time again is really admirable and people need to suck it the hell up about Jiggs being gay.

Dr Peepee · Sep 29, 2010

Mogwai said:
I mean, I'm clearly at least a tier below you in actual skill at this game so I might be missing some of the nuance of higher level pre-engagement push and pull, but I've always seen lasers as a tool that lets Falco pick his spots for engaging, which when coupled with a brutal defensive game (he's good great move speed, good hitboxes and priority and one of the best crouch cancel games in the game) and a brutal offensive game (2nd best shield pressure game in super theory brothers melee, probably the best shield pressure game in practice, also incredible anti-CC [dair] and relatively safe combo starters that lead to high reward combos on the entire cast). The thing that holds Falco back is that mistakes with him are particularly costly. When you stop making mistakes, I see absolutely nothing that should stop Falco from being the best character in the game.

Jiggs players don't get enough credit. I say this time and time again, but if all the spacies sitting in 5-32nd at nationals could pick Jiggs and win, they would, but that stupid character is hard to play vs. top level competition. Love them or hate them, the level of precision and tight decision making that Mang0 and HBox display time and time again is really admirable and people need to suck it the hell up about Jiggs being gay.

Do you mean move speed as in how quickly they come out or how fast Falco can move? Imo his slower mobility is what cripples his defensive game.

I have a hard time believing Falco can get away with better shield pressure than Fox at high level Melee. Mango has Nair shined perfectly(and could easily mix in shine JC grab I suppose) and forced rolls Fox can punish, whereas Falco gets that same shine JC grab option, only you could figure out when he's going to do it and get away beforehand/at least start the DI for the throw. I feel like Fox is harder to guess on when he's pressuring like that. I feel like that type of Fox pressure would put him above Falco by itself, aside from Fox having a better recovery/ground speed/upward killing potential(and for Usmash, killing potential that doesn't require a setup)/a gimping move.

Oh yeah I respect Jiggz mains for what they do and know it's really hard, but that doesn't keep me from not enjoying watching the character do well in tournaments lol. I agree with that Jiggz stuff you said.

Mogwai · Sep 29, 2010

yea, I just mean the speed with which his attacks come out. I agree that his dash mobility is his greatest defensive flaw and probably his largest flaw period. Perhaps I'm turning too much of a blind eye to the implications of a slow run speed, but I guess I've been playing Falco for so long that I don't even think about it much any more, lol.

Fox's biggest issue right now IMO is that he doesn't have a good answer to CC grab from a lot of character. You see a lot of high level **** where Marth/Peach/Sheik players CC Fox's approach and when he drills, then just SDI away and grab him anyway, which really limits him to DD camping and hoping he can make something happen on the ground. I dunno, Fox popularity is as high as ever yet I still think on the whole, top falcos > top foxes, albeit by a very very small margin.

otg · Sep 29, 2010

Mogwai said:
Fox's biggest issue right now IMO is that he doesn't have a good answer to CC grab from a lot of character. You see a lot of high level **** where Marth/Peach/Sheik players CC Fox's approach and when he drills, then just SDI away and grab him anyway, which really limits him to DD camping and hoping he can make something happen on the ground. I dunno, Fox popularity is as high as ever yet I still think on the whole, top falcos > top foxes, albeit by a very very small margin.

Really good post.

Dr Peepee · Sep 29, 2010

Mogwai said:
yea, I just mean the speed with which his attacks come out. I agree that his dash mobility is his greatest defensive flaw and probably his largest flaw period. Perhaps I'm turning too much of a blind eye to the implications of a slow run speed, but I guess I've been playing Falco for so long that I don't even think about it much any more, lol.

Fox's biggest issue right now IMO is that he doesn't have a good answer to CC grab from a lot of character. You see a lot of high level **** where Marth/Peach/Sheik players CC Fox's approach and when he drills, then just SDI away and grab him anyway, which really limits him to DD camping and hoping he can make something happen on the ground. I dunno, Fox popularity is as high as ever yet I still think on the whole, top falcos > top foxes, albeit by a very very small margin.

Hmm yeah, and I guess that's where our perceptions just disagree(the significance of the mobility). Either way, I'll try to look into what you said more because it's very well-founded.

I would think JC grabbing and delayed Nairs/spaced Bairs could beat out CC grabbing? Am I wrong to think that these mixups could at least make someone less prone to CC'ing so that Fox could go back to Nair'ing for a short time?

Mogwai · Sep 29, 2010

nair and bair both get ***** by CC as CCing at low %s gives the opponent a frame advantage and typically knocks them out of shine range.

Dr Peepee · Sep 29, 2010

Even delayed Nair/Bair? Wow.

I guess it comes down to grabs as a mixup then.

Mogwai · Sep 29, 2010

frame advantage = their grab comes out first after your aerial if that's what you're talking about.

Dr Peepee · Sep 29, 2010

Yeah I was just impressed that that still worked even if the aerials were pretty delayed.

I want to see more of that in action(vids or in person) at some point.

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