Fox's Match-Up Chart thread

t3h Icy · Sep 17, 2010

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Fox's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

n1000 · Sep 17, 2010

Fox's matchups
Copied from my post on the Falco board.

Fox: 50
Sheik: 55
Falco: 50
Marth: 50
Jiggs: 55
CF: 65
Peach: 65

To be refined:

Ganon: +2
ICs: 1
Samus: =
Doc: +1
Mario: +1
Luigi: +2
DK: +2
Pikachu: +2
Young Link: +2
Link: +3
Zelda: +3
GnW: +3
Mewtwo: +3
Yoshi: +3
Roy: +2
Ness: +3
Kirby: +3
Bowser: +3
Pichu: +3

Anyone disagree with the (0-100) numbers?

Lovage · Sep 17, 2010

i think peach and cf are 60 but that's JUST ME

Jim Morrison · Sep 17, 2010

Peach 60, Falcon is fine with 65

Fortress | Sveet · Sep 18, 2010

vs falco 50:50
vs puff 55:45
vs sheik 55:45
vs marth 50:50
vs peach 60:40
vs falcon 55:45
vs ICs 60:40
vs samus 55:45
vs ganon 60:40
vs doc 55:45
vs pikachu 60:40
vs mario 65:35
vs DK 65:35
vs luigi 60:40
vs link 60:40
vs zelda 70:30
vs mewtwo 75:25
vs roy 65:35
vs young link 65:35
vs g&w 70:30
vs yoshi 75:25
vs pichu 70:30
vs bowser 80:20
vs ness 80:20
vs kirby 80:20

RaynEX · Sep 18, 2010

Sveet said:
vs falco 50:50
vs puff 55:45
vs sheik 55:45
vs marth 50:50
vs peach 60:40
vs falcon 55:45
vs ICs 60:40
vs samus 55:45
vs ganon 60:40
vs doc 55:45
vs pikachu 60:40
vs mario 65:35
vs DK 65:35
vs luigi 60:40
vs link 60:40
vs zelda 70:30
vs mewtwo 75:25
vs roy 65:35
vs young link 65:35
vs g&w 70:30
vs yoshi 75:25
vs pichu 70:30
vs bowser 80:20
vs ness 80:20
vs kirby 80:20

This would look REALLY similar to my list.

Only one change..I'd make Falcon 6-4, or Peach 55-45. I can't see Falcon having an easier time with Fox. Sure Peach gets camped, but she has more tools to deal with spacies than Falcon does. As Fox, you can take huge liberties in how you approach the Falcon MU. His defensive game against spacies is ***

Vs. Peach its significantly harder to attempt to land a hit without getting hit yourself. She's constantly in her shield for her nairs or FCing things to produce the illusion of lag. The fact that Peach has to be camped in order for 6-4 to make sense, speaks to the fact that she gives Fox more problems. We only wish we could run straight at her and press buttons a la Falcon MU.

Fortress | Sveet · Sep 18, 2010

theres just so many things he can do with his speed in the match-up and they both **** each other up off a hit. i think falcon does better against fox than he does against sheik and falco, at least, and i dont think either of those match-ups are worse than 60:40.

SSSnake · Sep 18, 2010

Sveet said:
vs falco 50:50
vs puff 55:45
vs sheik 55:45
vs marth 50:50
vs peach 60:40
vs falcon 55:45
vs ICs 60:40
vs samus 55:45
vs ganon 60:40
vs doc 55:45
vs pikachu 60:40
vs mario 65:35
vs DK 65:35
vs luigi 60:40
vs link 60:40
vs zelda 70:30
vs mewtwo 75:25
vs roy 65:35
vs young link 65:35
vs g&w 70:30
vs yoshi 75:25
vs pichu 70:30
vs bowser 80:20
vs ness 80:20
vs kirby 80:20

i think thats pretty accurate... only thing i would change is probably falco. sure the mu has gotten better, but im personally not very comfortable with this mu. id say falco is 45:55 in falcos favor. otherwise no complaints ^^

RaynEX · Sep 18, 2010

The Falco / Fox argument could go on forever. I'm of the opinion that its even.

In my heart Falco wins, but that's probably because I'm a Fox main. 0 - death combos every hit start having an effect on your thinking eventually.

JPOBS · Sep 18, 2010

from sveets list, vs doc only 55:45?

i kno fox loses a lot of his stable stuff like upthrow uair and waveshine upsmash, but doc generally sucks lol

just curious

Lovage · Sep 18, 2010

RaynEX said:
The Falco / Fox argument could go on forever. I'm of the opinion that its even.

In my heart Falco wins, but that's probably because I'm a Fox main. 0 - death combos every hit start having an effect on your thinking eventually.

yea playing mango a lot depresses me vs. falco LOL

ill call it even tho

pika and doc are 60
samus is 50

Blistering Speed · Sep 18, 2010

Wow, people sipping Fox hateorade. Fox vs Falcon and Peach 60-40 or LESS? Puff 55-45? Naahhh bro.

t3h Icy · Sep 18, 2010

Falco 50/50
Jigglypuff 55/45?
Sheik 55/45
Marth 50/50
Peach 60/40
Samus 55/45-50/50?
Falcon 65/35-60/40?
Pikachu 60/40?

Something like that. Any second opinions on Sveet's lower tier match-ups? Raynex, you should know a lot about Pichu right?

mastermoo420 · Sep 19, 2010

I stick with LumpyCPU on the Fox/Falco match-up: 60-60

Also, I'm of the opinion that Fox/Falcon is 60-40. Fox messes with Falcon's already-horrible recovery, and Falcon being a FF'er sets him up for so many ****** stuff like chaining a jillion n-airs or a jillion u-tilts. The only time I really see Falcon having the advantage over Fox is if the Falcon is mad ****, but then that's just the player, not the character.

ALSO: Can anyone clarify why the Samus/Fox is so close? o_O Oddly floaty = no combos? Or wut

KirbyKaze · Sep 19, 2010

Fox beats Sheik 70-30

RaynEX · Sep 19, 2010

JPOBS said:
from sveets list, vs doc only 55:45?

i kno fox loses a lot of his stable stuff like upthrow uair and waveshine upsmash, but doc generally sucks lol

just curious

His edge-guarding is the most effective out of the characters in his tier, and arguably the tier above his (upper). Staple grab combo is now obsolete. Good priority on bair and solid CC game. I'd argue 60:40, but he can CG too. : /

I'm on the fence with this one.

Lovage said:
yea playing mango a lot depresses me vs. falco LOL

ill call it even tho

pika and doc are 60
samus is 50

Everytime I play Mango's Falco I get ***** so hard. That MU feels so hopeless if you're playing a high caliber opponent.

t3h Icy said:
Something like that. Any second opinions on Sveet's lower tier match-ups? Raynex, you should know a lot about Pichu right?

Why should I know alot about Fox / Pichu? Because of Unknown522?

mastermoo420 said:
ALSO: Can anyone clarify why the Samus/Fox is so close? o_O Oddly floaty = no combos? Or wut

-Uthrow doesn't combo into anything. Grab is obsolete for damage/killing and is now used more for positioning.
-CCs everything to extremely high percents
-Hitting her shield usually leaves you at a disadvantage. You hit it too high with nair, she gets free damage plus a knockdown. It also has the tendency to go through shields.
-Samus' body seems to slip out of dair often. I've heard its because its easier to SDI the dair as her. I hate hitting only two hits of dair then getting dsmashed.

So many options Foxes rely on randomly fail against Samus. On paper it doesn't seem like it would be difficult, but play the right Samus and you'll understand soon enough.

unknown522 · Sep 20, 2010

fox's matchups:

vs fox: 50
vs falco: 45
vs jiggs: 60

vs sheik: 50
vs marth: 50 (maybe 45)

vs falcon: 60
vs peach: 60
vs ganon: 65
vs ICs: 60 (50 with wobbling)

vs smaus: 50 (maybe 55)
vs doc: 65
vs mario: 65
vs pikachu: 60

vs luigi: 65
vs DK: 65
vs Link: 70
vs YL: 75
vs zelda: 80
vs G&W: 70
vs M2: 80 (90 maybe? I dunno, Taj said he's afraid to play me)

vs roy: 85
vs bowser: 90
vs yoshi: 85
vs pichu: 80
vs ness: 90
vs kirby: impossible for kirby

Wenbobular · Sep 20, 2010

Haha, impossible for Kirby
I lost to Chudat's Kirby as Fox when I was a noob ;__;

Samus is so weird when she gets drilled

Lovage · Sep 20, 2010

yea i'd prolly concede that fox samus is 55:45 but feels even enough to me

i'd put my money for fox ganon at 60:40 but who knows

zelda is not 80:20 lol

Winston · Sep 20, 2010

JPOBS said:
i kno fox loses a lot of his stable stuff like upthrow uair and waveshine upsmash

doesn't this still work fine?

KirbyKaze · Sep 20, 2010

lol this guy

Lovage · Sep 20, 2010

waveshine usmash works fine against samus you just have to do a long and clean wavedash and walk a tiny step after the wavedash so it connects (similar with marth)

KirbyKaze · Sep 21, 2010

Lovage is too good.

But yeah waveshine u-smash works.

unknown522 · Sep 21, 2010

Lovage said:
yea i'd prolly concede that fox samus is 55:45 but feels even enough to me

i'd put my money for fox ganon at 60:40 but who knows

zelda is not 80:20 lol

maybe I'm just good at the matchup?

JPOBS · Sep 21, 2010

waveshien upsmash works against samus yes, I was referring to Doc.

I thought it didnt combo vs doc unless you get a running shine into it and get that extra momentum. ( so more situational)

unknown522 · Sep 21, 2010

it works on doc/mario. You're just doing it slow.

If they SDI away, you have to run and JC u-smash

MarsFool! · Sep 21, 2010

Lucky does it a couple times in one match to hmw I'm pretty sure

Ill look for the video

MalwareDie · Sep 21, 2010

unknown522 said:
fox's matchups:

vs fox: 50
vs falco: 45
vs jiggs: 60

vs sheik: 50
vs marth: 50 (maybe 45)

vs falcon: 60
vs peach: 60
vs ganon: 65
vs ICs: 60 (50 with wobbling)

vs smaus: 50 (maybe 55)
vs doc: 65
vs mario: 65
vs pikachu: 60

vs luigi: 65
vs DK: 65
vs Link: 70
vs YL: 75
vs zelda: 80
vs G&W: 70
vs M2: 80 (90 maybe? I dunno, Taj said he's afraid to play me)

vs roy: 85
vs bowser: 90
vs yoshi: 85
vs pichu: 80
vs ness: 90
vs kirby: impossible for kirby

I love this.

Dart! · Sep 21, 2010

mastermoo420 said:
I stick with LumpyCPU on the Fox/Falco match-up: 60-60

Also, I'm of the opinion that Fox/Falcon is 60-40. Fox messes with Falcon's already-horrible recovery, and Falcon being a FF'er sets him up for so many ****** stuff like chaining a jillion n-airs or a jillion u-tilts. The only time I really see Falcon having the advantage over Fox is if the Falcon is mad ****, but then that's just the player, not the character.

ALSO: Can anyone clarify why the Samus/Fox is so close? o_O Oddly floaty = no combos? Or wut

matchups are now out of 120 nieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyoguhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

FoxLisk · Sep 21, 2010

Dart! said:
matchups are now out of 120 nieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyoguhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

man when i first read this and didnt know what that last word was supposed to be, i thought it was like Luanne from King of the Hill. which i cant find a video clip of. but that 'NEEEYOHHGHHHH' sound she makes.

RaynEX · Sep 22, 2010

Made some edits. Here's my list.

vs falco: 45
vs jiggs: 55

vs sheik: 55
vs marth: 50

vs falcon: 60
vs peach: 60
vs ganon: 65
vs ICs: 60 (50 with wobbling)

vs samus: 55
vs doc: 60
vs mario: 65
vs pikachu: 60

vs luigi: 65
vs DK: 65
vs Link: 70
vs YL: 75
vs zelda: 75
vs G&W: 70
vs M2: 75

vs roy: 70
vs bowser: 80
vs yoshi: 80
vs pichu: 70
vs ness: 80
vs kirby 85

everlasting yayuhzz · Sep 22, 2010

As Raynex said... as a Fox main... vs Falco in my heart is not even... but I suppose it is really close to even. Somewhere between 50-50 and 55-45.

Also Raynex we need to play more.

I didn't get enough at Apex.

Winston · Sep 22, 2010

RaynEX said:
vs luigi: 65

I remember a while back in the matchup thread you posted that Fox vs Luigi is 6-4; did you change your mind about the matchup or was it just rounding?

unknown522 · Sep 22, 2010

RaynEX said:
vs pichu: 70

looks like my pichu's too beast.

RaynEX · Sep 22, 2010

Gustav Wind said:
I remember a while back in the matchup thread you posted that Fox vs Luigi is 6-4; did you change your mind about the matchup or was it just rounding?

I've recently become a big fan of comparing match-ups for the same character. In the past it never occurred to me that it might be helpful.

Fox's other 6-4 match-ups are IMO Falcon/Peach/Doc/Pika/ICs. Luigi should NOT be included in that list. (Short answer: I changed my mind.)

unknown522 said:
looks like my pichu's too beast.

That and he actually has solid combos against Fox, unlike many of the other low tiers.

unknown522 · Sep 22, 2010

u-air -> cg.

all day son.

RaynEX said:
I've recently become a big fan of comparing match-ups for the same character. In the past it never occurred to me that it might be helpful.

I wish people would come to this realization.

Metà · Sep 28, 2010

I think Falco vs Fox is so close to even that it's tipped into one character's favour based on the stages. I'm not just talking about CP stages, but like, neutral stages. Fox needs room to move around, and definitely has the advantage on FD where he can CG, but Falco has the advantage on smaller stages like Yoshi's.

Does this have a tangible effect on the match-up chart? I know people have considered it, and it's not just Fox/Falco that this is true for, but I'd like to hear some input from others on this.

SKidd · Sep 29, 2010

Vs Falco:
Don't get hit
Grab Falco

60:40 in Falco's favor methinks

Tero. · Oct 1, 2010

Falco: 45 (might be 40 but no, not really)
Jiggs: 55
Sheik: 55 (might be 50)
Marth: 45 (might be 50)

Falcon: 60
Peach: 55
Ganon: 65 (might be 60)
Ice Climbers: 55 (might be anything from 10 to 90, ICs are lol)

Samus: 55
Doc: 55
Mario: 60 (might be 65)
Pikachu: 60

Luigi: 65
DK: 65
Link: 70
Y.Link: 70
Zelda: 75
G&W: 65
M2: 70

Roy: 65
Bowser: 75
Yoshi: 60 (might be 65)
Pichu: 65
Ness: 75
Kirby 75

G.L. · Oct 11, 2010

Falco: 50(i want to say falco had the advantage, but its too close for me to call)
Jiggs: 50 (could be in foxes favor by 5 or 10% but i'm gonna say even for now)
Sheik: 55 (mabey 60)
Marth: 55

Falcon: 60
Peach: 60
Ganon: 65
Ice Climbers: 60

Samus: 55
Doc: 60
Mario: 65
Pikachu: 60

*i really have no experience or clue on lower tiers so ill just leave those out

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