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Ganondorf's Match-Up Chart thread

t3h Icy

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As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Ganondorf's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.
 

-ACE-

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My opinion:

Overall disadvantage for Ganon
Sheik: 35/65
Fox: 35/65
Jiggs: 38/62
Falco: 40/60
Falcon: 42/58
Marth: 45/55
Peach: 45/55

Ganon Ditto: 100/0 The Dark Lord always wins

Overall advantage for Ganon
Samus: 55/45
Doc: 55/45
Link: 55/45
Pikachu: 55/45
Ice Climbers: 55/45
DK: 55/45
Mario: 57/43
Luigi: 60/40
Zelda: 60/40
Y. Link 60/40
Roy: 63/37
Bowser: 63/37
Yoshi: 65/35
G&W: 65/35
Ness: 65/35
Mewtwo: 65/35
Pichu: 65/35
Kirby: 65/35

I wasn't meaning to get crazy with exact numbers, and some of these are rough estimations. The only reason I strayed from multiples of 5 was to illustrate slight differences in overall difficulty between characters where I thought it may have been necessary. I also may have exaggerated how badly sheik and fox beat Ganon, but not by much. The bottom line is, Ganon doesn't **** many characters that badly as long as the player knows how to fight Ganon well (imo). I also tried to stay away from ties and/or "even" matchups, because there really isn't such a thing other than a ditto on a symmetrical stage where controller port advantages is non-existent.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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U ganons think marth isn't that bad... must be that brute force logic. if fox is 65-35, marth can't be any better than 85-15.
 

-ACE-

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U ganons think marth isn't that bad... must be that brute force logic. if fox is 65-35, marth can't be any better than 85-15.
85/15? Haha. Marth wins imo but that is insane. Many people see the matchup as even. It has nothing to do with brute force logic and more to do with the fact that Marth has a much harder time out spacing/out ranging Ganon than he does most other characters. Marth is forced to camp for grabs more often and choose his approaches wisely. Ganon gets a nice guaranteed followup from any grab and can edgeguard marth almost as well as marth can Ganon.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The fact of the matter is, marth has as much range on all of his moves as ganon has on his longest move, and all of his moves are disjointed. Marth also has significantly less lag on all his moves. While ganon can punish marth well, marth can punish ganon as well or better. Considering speed, ganon has as much chance catching marth as he does catching fox. Marth has significantly less risk when attempting a punish, as long as he spaces well he isn't at any risk from a grounded tilt or jab.

Played correctly, marth is ganon's worst match-up.

edit- i dont think marth is actually 85-15 on ganon loool
 

-ACE-

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The fact of the matter is, marth has as much range on all of his moves as ganon has on his longest move, and all of his moves are disjointed. Marth also has significantly less lag on all his moves. While ganon can punish marth well, marth can punish ganon as well or better. Considering speed, ganon has as much chance catching marth as he does catching fox. Marth has significantly less risk when attempting a punish, as long as he spaces well he isn't at any risk from a grounded tilt or jab.
This post is very comical.

Played correctly, marth is ganon's worst match-up.
:laugh:

How many good Ganons have you played against?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The moderator status must have got to your head. Lurking the ganon boards were good for something, huh?

I like how you crossed out half my post, seemingly at random, without making any sort of response. Pretty sure you can't refute anything I said. If you actually want to have a reasonable discussion without the trolling and flaming, I suggest you take your conceited red *** and make a real response instead of starting ****.
 

-ACE-

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The fact of the matter is, marth has as much range on all of his moves as ganon has on his longest move
Ganon's bair outranges ALL of marth's aerials. Fully spaced uair and fair also compete quite well with most of marth's moves, as does ftilt.

While ganon can punish marth well, marth can punish ganon as well or better.
In 2006, Marth combo'd the **** out of Ganon. Not anymore. Punishment from Ganon requires only 1 to 2 moves, which not only put ample damage on marth but also usually set him up in an awkward situation where he is in danger of losing a stock (at relatively low%). Ganon gets a nice guaranteed follow up from every grab and marth doesn't. Marth also has a good bit of trouble killing at high% in comparison to Ganon.

Considering speed, ganon has as much chance catching marth as he does catching fox.
How can you be serious? Fox is much faster and much more agile than marth. Fox also has an approach (nair) that is more effective vs Ganon than practically anything Marth has.

Marth has significantly less risk when attempting a punish
?? Punishing is seizing an opportunity that is granted to you when your opponent makes a mistake. There is very little risk involved. Marth has a tad less risk overall in approaching imo but you can't assume that Ganon is going to blindly attack and leave himself open.

Played correctly, marth is ganon's worst match-up.
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. All matchups are assumed to be played "correctly" when discussing average outcomes of such. And reading this just really makes me feel like you haven't played any good Ganons.

edit- i dont think marth is actually 85-15 on ganon loool
Well, that's good. My bad for sorta snapping at you, but you are notorious for backing up your opinions, regardless of how biased or misguided they may be, to the point of being a ****. You've done it with me before several times, but that's no excuse for me anything but friendly. My apologies.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Ganon's bair outranges ALL of marth's aerials. Fully spaced uair and fair also compete quite well with most of marth's moves, as does ftilt.
thats actually not true. my dolphin is ****ting all over my computer right now so i can't show you hitbox evidence, but the only reason those moves "seem" to out range marth's fair is becuase when marth RUNS AT GANNONDORF they plop him right in the head. In terms of actual range, if marth stood so that hit fair would tip and both characters jumped straight into the air and did their move, you would see that marth's fair would hit and ganon's bair would not. Similar story for uair whether from behind or from in front.


In 2006, Marth combo'd the **** out of Ganon. Not anymore.
why not?

Punishment from Ganon requires only 1 to 2 moves, which not only put ample damage on marth
42% from two unstaled dairs... go on.

but also usually set him up in an awkward situation where he is in danger of losing a stock (at relatively low%).
thats where you lost me. why is marth-the character- in an awkward position? the character has real options (not should i DI this way and get hit or the other way and get hit?) after those 1 or 2 hits.

Unless ur talking about ganon having stage control, then yes, he does. Again i refer back to the part where i said marth has better range than ganondorf, so he has many more options than fox in this situation.

Ganon gets a nice guaranteed follow up from every grab and marth doesn't.
1 hit, i usually perfer taking uair, though i really like when ganon dthrows facing forward at the edge cause i can just eat the backair and gain stage.

Though, i would hardly say marth's grabs arent guaranteed. Dthrow and fthrow tech chase are pretty simple with the huge grab, long dashdance and giant sword. you can tech chase on reaction against pretty much any character. Whats ganon gonna do, jump out? hahahahahahaha

Marth also has a good bit of trouble killing at high% in comparison to Ganon.
its pretty simple against ganon, a lot more than against fox falco or sheik who can usually grab edge before we get there at higher percents and thus avoid kill moves until like 200%. Ganon doesn't really have that luxury.

oh yeah, and the argument about how ganon should never make it back anyways since marth edge guards ganon better than anyone else (lol spike at 10%, ur dead dude hahahahahaha)



How can you be serious? Fox is much faster and much more agile than marth. Fox also has an approach (nair) that is more effective vs Ganon than practically anything Marth has.
Fox can run around better. But as we've seen from players of slower characters, hbox's puff in particular, slower characters with more range can choke out fox and beat or trade with the nair approach.



?? Punishing is seizing an opportunity that is granted to you when your opponent makes a mistake. There is very little risk involved. Marth has a tad less risk overall in approaching imo but you can't assume that Ganon is going to blindly attack and leave himself open.
exactly what im talking about. the risk of a bait, such as your opponent faking lag in order to make you attack (ganon players are some of the best at this, props). Fox has to jump into ganon's range in order actually attack him, so fox puts more risk into his punishments.


I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. All matchups are assumed to be played "correctly" when discussing average outcomes of such. And reading this just really makes me feel like you haven't played any good Ganons.
not sure if i have anything to say to this, didn't read what u were commenting on....


Well, that's good. My bad for sorta snapping at you, but you are notorious for backing up your opinions, regardless of how biased or misguided they may be, to the point of being a ****. You've done it with me before several times, but that's no excuse for me anything but friendly. My apologies.
yeah, i get a little intense when i argue (sometimes i call it debating, probably not right now). Its probably because of this simple argument here. I would love to play linguini and kage, but havent left MW yet. I seem to remember going even with rockcrock in the few friendlies we played when he came to POE3.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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yep, but funny thing is marth has to walk into the fist. marth can simply space his fair to hit ganon's fist, but that makes ganon cry.

also, bair happens to beat just about any move fox has too.
 

spider_sense

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lol true, but you have to remember Ganon can always go for a viable shield grab or he can uair the fair if he's quick enough. Also while it's true that Marth can combo the crap out of Ganon. Ganon needs like 6-7 hits on Marth to take him out. But to honest Marth doesn't have any legitimate combos on Ganon, he combos only if the Ganon decides to DI in. That's when all the **** starts. I can post up some old matches of Rockcrock vs QueenDVS to show you what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RORKImaoZFs

Even though Marth wins this set in a 2-0 it isn't a flat out **** like you said, Rockcrock simply got outplayed by Queen. But you can clearly see how this matchup is even. lol I think Rockcrock makes it through losers to play Queen again in Grand finals, but I'm not entirely sure. I'll look for it though.

Here's another set of Rockcrock vs Skrach (A central florida Marth who's very solid with his playstyle)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsu693I4Pg8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-gE5pWQHYk&feature=related <----ending is lulz worthy. xD

Also watch HBK vs Kage. Even Tipman says HBK DESTROYS Ganon, and still lost to Kage. I could post more, but you get the idea. This match up is definitely even. Both characters can flat out **** each other with their own little gimmicks and simplicity. I think positioning and aggressive spacing followed with structured and effective edge guarding is key for both characters in the match-up.
 

KirbyKaze

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Marth vs characters like Ganon is interesting because if Marth aims his move at their body and they do a move, the move will hit Marth.

But if Marth aims a move to counter their attack, and Ganon/whoever doesn't do anything, then Marth will whiff and be open.

It's vehwwwy intewesting.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Marth vs characters like Ganon is interesting because if Marth aims his move at their body and they do a move, the move will hit Marth.

But if Marth aims a move to counter their attack, and Ganon/whoever doesn't do anything, then Marth will whiff and be open.

It's vehwwwy intewesting.
quite true my sir, though how open marth is after the wiff is very relative by match-ups. Falcon and fox would be all over that. Ganon... not so much lol
 

-ACE-

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In terms of actual range, if marth stood so that hit fair would tip and both characters jumped straight into the air and did their move, you would see that marth's fair would hit and ganon's bair would not. Similar story for uair whether from behind or from in front.
If he's able to get in close enough, sure. If marth is expecting the bair and aims to space a tipper fair on the very tip of Ganon's fist (bair), he will lose much more than he wins.

1 hit, i usually perfer taking uair, though i really like when ganon dthrows facing forward at the edge cause i can just eat the backair and gain stage.
Sure, you can do that up until 110 (before the bair) or something, depending on the stage...

its pretty simple against ganon, a lot more than against fox falco or sheik who can usually grab edge before we get there at higher percents and thus avoid kill moves until like 200%. Ganon doesn't really have that luxury.
This makes ganon sound so helpless against marth lol

Fox can run around better. But as we've seen from players of slower characters, hbox's puff in particular, slower characters with more range can choke out fox and beat or trade with the nair approach.
True, I was more referring to how good fox's sh nair approach is in general against ganon (partially due to his run speed but also what it leads into).
 

Fortress | Sveet

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(mostly to spider sense) this is how i view the match-up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YEtJl8wChQ#t=56m20s m2k wouldn't have even lost a stock if he didnt miss his double jump sweetspot and then miss his upb sweetspot (both were available).

This match-up is definitely winable. Ganon has things he can do to marth to break spacing, espcially with his long range, but marth should be winning this match-up more often than not. If 60-40 means "****" to you guys, then idk. This match-up is definitely not as hard as fox or even peach for marth
 

A2ZOMG

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M2K said Marth vs Ganon is even a long time ago lol.

And anyhow from personal experience as a Mario main, Ganon beats Mario like....65/35. It's one of Mario's worst matchups. Ganon just never dies unless he gets F-smashed, Mario can't really combo him into killers reliably nor can he really easily gimp Ganon, while Ganon outspaces the hell out of Mario and kills him by just...landing hits lol. It's a really stupid matchup for Mario lol.
 

DippnDots

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against ganon
Fox- 65
Falco- 60
Sheik- 65
Marth- 55
Peach- 60
Falcon- 60
Jiggs- 55
Samus- 35
Mario- 42.5
Luigi- 40
Link- 40
DK- 40
Icies- 40
Doc- 45
Pikachu- 40
Zelda- 45

off the top of my head, and the only people i care about
 

Fortress | Sveet

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i didnt realize samus was such a strong match-up for ganon. I thought her speed could make up for her lack of meaty hitboxes if played very carefully.

But samus is one of those characters that has like 70-30 match-ups until hugs plays and its like 55-45 loool
 

A2ZOMG

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I want to ask, why such conservative matchup values for Mario vs Ganon?

Ganon I believe hard counters Mario. It's just really dumb how most of what Mario is good at just isn't good against Ganon. Yes he has damage combos and Ganon's recovery is kinda easy to punish, but it's retardedly hard for Mario to actually gimp Ganon or for that matter outright KO Ganon, while Ganon just automatically kills Mario playing a safe spacing game that Mario really can't punish without a hard read.

I personally think Mario vs Ganon is easily 65/35 Ganon's favor. I don't get why people think it's closer.
 

DippnDots

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Here's the thing, when it comes to a spacing battle, ganon has a huge huge advantage over mario. But you gotta keep in mind mario has both projectiles and a **** crazy combo game on ganon. In a neutral standpoint, ganon has an advantage. Both characters have a 1-move infallable edge guard, mario the cape, ganon the uair. But I believe that when mario has the momentum, from a grab or landing a hit, he has a much better advantage than the one ganon gets from having the momentum. And frankly I put 42.5 because I think Doc has an easier time against ganon than mario, just slightly, and mario JUST slightly has an easier time than luigi.

and the reason doc has an easier time is because his pills are better and his wavedash is seriously perfect for the stuntime/knockback on his moves. I also think his combos in fair are better than marios combos into fsmash
 

-ACE-

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I agree with Dots. Mario's speed allows him to almost run circles around Ganon and his combo game is pretty nuts. The knockback of Doc's bair on Ganon is just brutal near the edge. Once moment you think you're safe, then you're getting edgehogged lol. I learned that the hard way playing Boss a long time ago.
 

A2ZOMG

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Doc does great against Ganon and can actually kill and gimp Ganondorf very reliably (losing a few combos matters little as opposed to getting consistent gimps from edgeguarding in this matchup). Mario on the other hand only combos Ganon and struggles a lot to actually gimp or kill Ganon.

Yes Mario has good damage combos on Ganon, but they barely mean anything if Mario can't follow up with something that will ensure he can finish off Ganon. As long as Ganon DIs, his wizkick recovery will guarantee he can reach the stage.

For that matter, as a Mario main, to avoid playing the ditto, I counterpick Ganon against other Marios. I really don't see how Mario goes close with Ganon when I barely have to work at all to outspace and kill Mario, while he has to make tons of precise reads in order to ensure that I die when I go offstage.

And Mario doesn't just run circles around Ganon. His run speed and walk speed is certainly better (and I guess faster jump time can't be ignored), but every other difference between them in mobility is marginal, and Ganon abuses wavelanding much more efficiently than Mario does.

Mario's Cape is NOT an infallible edgeguard against Ganon either (especially if the Ganon has very good spacing for sweetspotting the ledge). Neither is Doc's cape actually as long as the Ganon leaves the option open of recovering high. Edgeguarding with B-air is much more reliable, and that clearly gives Doc the edge in this particular matchup.

As for Luigi vs Ganon...eh, I dunno. He doesn't have Mario's combo game which does kinda suck for him, but on the other hand he doesn't have nearly as much trouble killing Ganon thanks to his powerful F-air and D-air. Getting outspaced (and edgeguarded!) still sucks although he has a lengthy WD that always leaves him an unpredictable option.
 

Bl@ckChris

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as far as edgeguarding, you should bair until ganon has to grab the edge. then the infallible cape comes in.

as far as combos, can't those usual uair chains end in nair? a nair at medium% at the edge of the stage should be enough to at least get a few bairs and if we make it on stage, enough lag for an fsmash.

definitely not a hard counter. its not even, but at higher levels, mario has options to deal with ganons spacing. once he gets a grab its utilts to uairs to a nair or fsmash i guess. that becomes problematic for ganon quickly.
 

DippnDots

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Recovering high as ganon doesnt even need to be read by a mario or doc, its something you can react to easily. And even with DI, mario has combos into his fsmash and dsmash. While the dsmash wont usually outright kill ganon, it'll make him recover low. edge grab -> bair is a rinse and repeat in situations like this, and usually sets up for a cape or just a simple edge hog.

And this isnt even character dependent but if you know someones going to sweetspot, edge hog, if they land on the stage you could ledge hop a fair into something, waveland on and grab ganon, you just have to time it right, but you definitely have enough frames to deal with it. Not as wide a window as when you force sheik onto the stage but the principle is the same.

****projectile****

its definitely in ganon's favor, but it's not hopeless for mario
 

A2ZOMG

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Well I appreciate the advice anyway. Ganon frustrates my Mario more than any other character not named Falco. >.<
 

n0ne

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lool marth vs ganon es 50/50 hands down. simply because of ganon ability to steal marths jumps/ gimp / kill and long range and power, as does marth has his easy gay combos and grabs and range.

This became being so once players started incorperating wavelands/dashes to improve his speed so pretty much its not debatable. imo.

And also, imo, i dont really care for marths fsmash tipper or his dtilt, the move i think that ***** ganon a bit is his utilt its just beast against him.
For Ganon it would be
-his ftilt (and if marth likes to CC you can do a low angled ftilt and that will force a tech chase at mid high %
- BAIR, i repeat bair is too good and i cant believe its range
- fair duh
- uair if marths above
- down grab to bair, fair or uair is very safe if done quicky
Also i recommend low ftilt against ddilt 100% , its just better

Ganons worst matchup is and always will be against sheik.
Against spacies, at least their roll is short so this is good for tech chases, and their recovery can be ***** with ganons moves, also jab to grab at mid % goes into tech chase

Falcon is candidate for hard matchup too now a days obviously

and peach really isnt that much trouble if u space your recovery and use your ftilts well as well as your grabs oh and bairs

and idk why people say puff is hard? yeah she can kill you very ugly-ie lol but on stage she doesnt really have anything on him if he spaces well.
 

DippnDots

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Ftilt might be better than dtilt in terms of actually landing and playing safe but there's no way it's better in terms of getting damage done to the marth.

And puff is hard because you have to wait for her to fall into something more so than any other character as she's able to put on aggression while being completely safe in her approach, even more so than falco.

Patience in both match ups helps level the playing fields but the fact is, against most higher tiered characters, ganon can't just simply be on the offensive without a read or mistake on the opponents part.

joke edit: Unless you're kage, who in drephens words, puts hitboxes at the most random places and for some reason they work.
 

Bl@ckChris

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dippndots, whats the next event you think we'll both be at?

Tipped off 6?
ROM3?
Pound 5?

i wanna mm/friendly you some. i'm interested in your ganon.
 

-ACE-

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Also i recommend low ftilt against ddilt 100% , its just better

Ganons worst matchup is and always will be against sheik.
Against spacies, at least their roll is short so this is good for tech chases, and their recovery can be ***** with ganons moves, also jab to grab at mid % goes into tech chase

and idk why people say puff is hard? yeah she can kill you very ugly-ie lol but on stage she doesnt really have anything on him if he spaces well.
Dtilt has a little bit more range and usually leads to a free uair. It might not be quite as safe because it's a tad slower and has a tad more cooldown time, but to say low ftilt is better "hands down" is a stretch.

Sure, the mechanics of spacies pave the way for a lot of techchasing options, but even a great Ganon usually won't be getting a ton of techchasing opportunities against a killer fox or falco. Ganons that have learned to punish the few mistakes top level spacies make to the best of Ganon's ability may (at times) make the matchup look even-ish, but it's not. It takes a lot of patience and rock-solid defense. Fox and falco's recoveries are ***** by basically the entire cast, the hard part is dealing with their approaches and getting them offstage. Jab to grab is also very situational at mid%.

Puff doesn't have anything on Ganon onstage? Are you serious? Lol.
 
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