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Link's Match-Up Chart thread

t3h Icy

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As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Link's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.
 

Skler

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I think I've rated all of them before, but let's see if my opinion has changed!

10-90 vs Fox
10-90 vs Sheik
15-85 vs C Falcon
20-80 vs Falco
30-70 vs Marf
35-65 vs Peachykeen
40-60 vs Doctor Doom
40-60 vs Mario
40-60 vs The Dorf
40-60 vs Young Link
40-60 vs Luigi
45-55 vs Puff (controversy!)
45-55 vs GaW (controversy!)
50-50 vs Pika
50-50 vs Link!
50-50 vs ICs!
50-50 vs DK
55-45 vs Spamus
60-40 vs Roy
60-40 vs Ness
60-40 vs Zelda
65-45 vs Yoshi
70-30 vs M2
70-30 vs Pichu
70-30 vs Kirby
90-10 vs Boozer


I don't think I forgot anyone.
 

cjugs

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Link doesn't beat weegee? 70-30 vs marth? hmm ide disagree with some of those if i had been playing link half as long as skler has so nevermind then :)
 

t3h Icy

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Those are some really wide numbers for match-ups, but I have read all your stuff in the chart thread.

Is Bowser really that bad?

Any other Links for second opinions?
 

-tRiNiTy-

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I think that Link has a much better chance against Peach though, like at least 55-45 (Peach's favor), mainly because she's very vulnerable to projectile spamming and Link can kill Peach earlier than she kills him, if he wants to. But it does however depend on the stage sometimes... or maybe it's just me x)
 

Skler

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Those are some really wide numbers for match-ups, but I have read all your stuff in the chart thread.

Is Bowser really that bad?

Any other Links for second opinions?
If you camp Bowser will never win. If you play aggressively but still space even remotely correctly you'll still wipe the floor with him (you stay out of the powerful section of the fortress' range if you're spaced to the jab or so, just CC the weak part when he inevitably tries anyways and punish him). He honestly has no options against Link. It's pretty sad.

I may have widened a few (Marth, Bowser, CF?) because recent matches and trying things with characters have changed my mind.




I put Peach where she is because of her ******** good shield pressure game. Link can't shield against her and his default defense (guess what it is) doesn't phase her. Even his jab is beaten by a dash attack to clank and then using a faster move (dsmash, jab, almost anything). The more I play against a Peach who understands the matchup the more I'm convinced that Link has no good options for defense in the MU aside from "hold a bomb and threaten to throw it, like, really hard, at her face."

It doesn't help that Link's best combos on Peach are two or three hits long and are all very DI dependent. Nor does it help that Link can't edgeguard Peach effectively whereas she has the float, turnips and dsmashing/CCing to dsmash. All Link has going for him is a mobile projectile game and a slight increase in range that lacks the priority on the ground to matter very much anywhere but in the air. He's also heavier, but he generally won't be surviving longer since the turnip is an insanely effective tool for edgeguarding Link (if timed correctly it will ALWAYS hit you out of your hookshot/hookshot reel in).

Most Peach players don't know how easy it is to stop the hookshot with a turnip, the lowish priority of a lot of Link's ground moves and just how slow Link's fastest option out of shield is.
 

cjugs

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Um ok kirby kazes right but link has a sword and a bomb and a boomerang which he has mastered to return to him upon voice command.
 

-tRiNiTy-

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Whoa, guess I can't really contradict what you wrote, good points you mentioned there.

Well since Link's Number one rule is "Don't get yourself cought in your shield!" anyway, as long as you play a careful hit&run game and punish every one of her moves effectively, you should be alright as long as you don't get hit by her lol

(if timed correctly it will ALWAYS hit you out of your hookshot/hookshot reel in)
This is very true, people. They're doing it to me to lol
It will unfortunately ALWAYS... kill you if it hits...
But as long as your opponent doesn't know about this, the matchup should be arround 55-45 x) [/jk]
 

Skler

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It sucks so much once Peach gets used to that. It honestly isn't that terrible of a MU on the stage itself, it's just that without your recovery tricks you die so quickly!

Sometimes you can tech the edge if they didn't place it right or you miracle SDI it and manage to do a non-walljump tech. That hasn't happened to me yet though, I generally walljump tech if I SDI at all.
 

-tRiNiTy-

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Well I sometimes just keep the control stick up the moment I hookshot, that way you're already set up to WJ tech an incoming turnip or Dsmash, if you see it coming.

It's just too bad that you need to have at least some percents until the turnips get you to the animation that alows you to tech the hit (hope you get the point lol) instead of just poking you (unless its a stitchface haha), kinda unfair...
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Why does link have such a bad rating vs fox? I can understand fox has considerable disadvantage, but 10-90 is basically impossible to win.... I didn't realize link had any match-ups worse than 75:25...


link is so fun to play tho, i wont give em up
 

rhan

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Skler. YL v Link is **** near even to slightly in Link's favor lol

47 - 53 Link's favor.
 

HDL

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Usually I don't like these kinds of threads, but I just wanted to say:

Fox is not that bad for Link. Tough, yes, but not even close to some of the terrible matchups that exist in the game. I'd say it's about 40-60 Fox's favor, of course.

Falco's harder, maybe 35-65 or 30-70.

Sheik and Marth are Link's top two enemies. No other character has the matchup advantages these two have against him, and even those two are totally beatable if you master the matchups and develop the qualities of a top player with Link. Needless to say, that type of player is extremely rare. Most of the people who develop those qualities would have long since changed to a top tier to increase their odds of winning.

Accurate knowledge, top player qualities, and consistent execution rule the game. Without those, no player stands a hint of a chance in a major tournament, much less a Link player. Develop those correctly and then your Link will have what it takes.
 

dablackpacman

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wow, did not expect da great HDL to come thru n hate on link thru marth's eyes. only played m2k the one time n that was enough for me but marth is my fav match-up. he's easy to combo, edge guard n everything else. he causes u to change up ur play style a lil cuz of the "tipper" thing, but falcons that are far bettr than me that i've played have pulled out marth and sheik, and after i went to work on them went right back to capt
 

huMps

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hdl knows what he's talking about, but I'm confused about the marth thing. It would be cool if you explained why it is such a bad match up, I see that match up won alot more often than link vs. falco, fox, or captain. Same with me personally. I find marth to be a much better match up than the rest of the top tiers.
Glad to see someone else agrees with me about the fox/falco match ups too.
 

HDL

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Well, I don't want to get too deep into it. If I did, more people would come and probably post their (dis)agreements, and from there things would go downhill. There is also the fact that most people haven't attained any kind of mastery, despite some that truly believe they have, and so the information they give is likely, not always, but likely to be incorrect or inaccurate.

But I will say this: understanding a matchup to the highest degree possible cannot be done by considering the results of the majority of players. To get top quality understanding you must consider only top quality skill/knowledge. What happens when most Link players play most Marth players doesn't give any kind of accurate representation of what the matchup is on the currently highest level, which is the level that will best show the true nature of Link VS Marth (or any other matchup).
 

cjugs

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Link vs marth is bad he is easy to combo but good links won't try for grabs very often its to punishable and marth has more options he may be the only character that can edguard link with ease and he outspaces you completely. HDL i would absolutely love to hear how you fair against foxes and what your secret is because i have always thought it was heavily in foxes favor and falco i thought was easier he is slower his shield pressure isn't as good he can't camp as well and he's much easier to edge guard.
 

huMps

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I have always thought it is easier to space against fox. thats my biggest reasoning for why I find him to be a better match up. You can just approach, falco is going to put you in your shield theres nothing you can do about it, and link is just not good out of shield. If the falco doesn't put you in your shield he's a bad falco. But a good(one that knows how to play some effense too) campy fox will be very difficult to beat. Not just with link but in any match up. I'm still confused about the marth comment though. All his moves are so laggy that he is one of the easier charecters too grab, and you can put on some real good damage from a grab at almost any percentage. he is hard to edge guard and very good at edge guarding but I have always thought it to be a match up very close to 50/50. Falcomist, a good marth player, just got wrecked the germ in tourney. And then falcomist came back to win the 2 next matches with falco.
 

Skler

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Usually I don't like these kinds of threads, but I just wanted to say:

Fox is not that bad for Link. Tough, yes, but not even close to some of the terrible matchups that exist in the game. I'd say it's about 40-60 Fox's favor, of course.

Falco's harder, maybe 35-65 or 30-70.

Sheik and Marth are Link's top two enemies. No other character has the matchup advantages these two have against him, and even those two are totally beatable if you master the matchups and develop the qualities of a top player with Link. Needless to say, that type of player is extremely rare. Most of the people who develop those qualities would have long since changed to a top tier to increase their odds of winning.

Accurate knowledge, top player qualities, and consistent execution rule the game. Without those, no player stands a hint of a chance in a major tournament, much less a Link player. Develop those correctly and then your Link will have what it takes.

I have played against 3 circle camping Fox players in tournament (easily the most frustrating games I've ever played). It is literally an unwinnable matchup, assuming no grotesque errors on Fox's part, because they never need to actually get into range. Your projectiles are far too easily dodged and your approaches are too slow to catch him. They just need to wait for you to throw out a desperate approach or space a projectile poorly before they decide to nair, grab or do any number of things that Fox is really good at. Every time I think of how bad Sheik is I just remember "at least she can't circle camp me, I can actually attack her." Until you've taken over 200% in one game in lasers against a Fox you have not experienced true circle camping. Banning DL64 just results in them doing it on Battlefield, PS or even trying it on FD. They can do it on Kongo Jungle as a CP too, so they'll win at least one game.


On small stages they can't auto-win, but they'll still beat you into the ground just by virtue of being Fox. If they aren't wary of certain things Link can catch them in nasty little combos and the like, but there are no Fox players that play anywhere near the top-level that recklessly approach anymore.


Falco doesn't have the tools to circle camp Link and lacks the raw killing power of Fox. His control is better because he has the death laser, but that's just a nuisance when you survive to 150 on most stocks and are nearly impossible to edgeguard. What is your reasoning behind Falco being harder than Fox? Fox is faster, has superior shield pressure (primarily because shield DI to get away from his shines is almost impossible), survives longer and has infinitely better kill moves and ways to combo into those kill moves. Falco has the laser and a hilarious tech chase.


I wouldn't consider Marth to be one of Link's worst matchups, he's not comparable to Sheik, Fox or Falcon. His spacing is too thrown off by Link's grab game and his moves are too easy to force with projectiles. It also helps that link can begin comboing him effectively at 0% whereas he has to wait against Fox and Falcon. Once he gets his spacing against Link things get dicey, but it's not the almost routine **** that a Sheik, Fox or Falcon can give to poor old Link.


Link can actually use his tools semi-effectively against Marth and isn't forced to play out of his element.


@rhan- no way! Young Link totally wins. Ask THE DAZ(wa)! I actually haven't played a good YL in a while and really want to again.
 

cjugs

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I have always thought it is easier to space against fox. thats my biggest reasoning for why I find him to be a better match up. You can just approach, falco is going to put you in your shield theres nothing you can do about it, and link is just not good out of shield. If the falco doesn't put you in your shield he's a bad falco. But a good(one that knows how to play some effense too) campy fox will be very difficult to beat. Not just with link but in any match up. I'm still confused about the marth comment though. All his moves are so laggy that he is one of the easier charecters too grab, and you can put on some real good damage from a grab at almost any percentage. he is hard to edge guard and very good at edge guarding but I have always thought it to be a match up very close to 50/50. Falcomist, a good marth player, just got wrecked the germ in tourney. And then falcomist came back to win the 2 next matches with falco.
It is not easier to space against fox he is faster and smaller making him tougher to space against than falco, that being said he is also betterr out of shield throwing a upsmash if you screw up your spacing or a grab falcos upsmash is nothing to be worried about and neither is his grab game. Falco's lasers put you in shield not the character itself upb and upsmash are ways to get out of his shield pressure fox forget it hes keeping you in there, and if you get pined down by lasers is the reasoning for shielding not falcos moves, fox is to fast and smashes you around.

Marth is also not one of the easiest characters to grab he spends the majority of his time in the air and SHLL marth has some laggy moves and the only laggy ones he has are his smashes and he is only going to use his fsmash is he uses other ones he is a bad marth.

but suppose you do get a grab what would you do what is the end result? dthrow uptilt bair bair something like that adds damage but hard DI away from link makes it hard and you can't beat a character based on grab combos. Marth beats you on every stage except DL which he will ban and you will end up at ps or fod and FD you win on ps and he wins on the others tech chasing you to death and edguarding you with ease outspacing you so your srat is to use projectiles and marth can hit you while you pull them out it's hard to beat a good marth.
Germ beat falconists marth because Germ is a fantastic link but he lost his second and third matches because the matchup is still in falcos favor and i might add that germ should have won when he back threw he normally bairs and then nair or something and he didn't bair and he lost and there was other **** so he should have won.
 

HDL

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I called it, didn't I?

Me said:
Well, I don't want to get too deep into it. If I did, more people would come and probably post their (dis)agreements, and from there things would go downhill.
Skler, you are a good Link player from what I saw at Pound 4. But, with respect, in case you forgot, you only won around 1-2 matches against me out of many, and that was not simply due to Link ditto knowledge. I won't mention names out of respect (not trying to use them as stepping stones), but I've consistently beaten the best top/high tier character players. Enough insofar as to be considered a viable threat to them in tournaments. Sure I've lost too, they are excellent players who win often and using Link makes it even harder. But in any case, I've proven at least one thing: I can and have beaten most of the major top players with Link.

Now, don't misconstrue me. I don't mean to say that you don't have knowledge on Link or his matchups. What I'm saying is that, if there's any part of you that feels you know everything or almost everything there is to know, therein lies the main problem.

I was like that before, once. I felt I had completely exhausted Link, like there was nothing left to learn because I had fully mastered him. And so I moved on to my 2nd-in-command, which became my main tournament character. It wasn't until I wised up and realized that there's so much more to explore that I came back to Link. Since then I have learned many things about him, to this day I am still amazed at how much he has to offer.

Even after Pound 4, I still learned new things. Most of them are little, not anything spectacular alone, but everything counts when accumulated. Bits of knowledge here and there. The only reason I even got to this point is because I challenged what I already thought to be true and correct, making revisions and adjustments wherever necessary. That's why I never believe my opinions to be firmly rooted, because if they are then there is no room for improvement. Instead, I have taken a more dynamic approach.

I am not out to convince anyone of the heights I've reached with Link. I train for my personal benefit, not for any kind of recognition. But I wanted to post this because I was a little offended by Skler's insinuation that I do not have sound reasons for my thoughts on the matchups. Instead he just posted his opinions as if they were absolute truth. If you are still having such insane trouble with Fox (10-90?), it's because you have not mastered the matchup and you have not developed the qualities of a top player in general. The first step to improving is to discard the mistaken assertion that there is nothing left to learn.

huMps I'll answer your question about Marth. Projectiles do not keep him out. They can only serve as an impediment, but sooner or later he will get in the danger zone. He only needs to move forward and block, staying on the ground and not jumping. Once there, he has solid offensive options for staying out of your CC range, grabbing you, hitting you with safe attacks past your jab range, and avoiding your grab. He's not totally safe, else Link couldn't win at all. But the top Marth players will not fall for most of the bologna projectile usage that most Link players tend to think will keep him away. They will not be so easily interrupted by Link's defending sword strikes. His pressure is difficult to deal with because almost everything he can do is safely out of your range, and most of Link's reliable counter measures are risky.

On the other hand, Fox/Falco get interrupted quite easily by most of what Link does, including the safe attacks, which means Link doesn't need to take risks most of the time like against Marth. They cannot attack him from out of range other than lasers (which is not enough, it makes them a target). They always have to get within Link's range for a proper offense. If you know the matchup, you can take advantage and interrupt them at key moments in their offense. Link can also destroy them if he gets the opportunity to tech chase, combo, or otherwise mount an offense, and this is not even counting the edge guard. Shine pressure can be escaped/countered. Falco is harder because he has an easier time approaching due to lasers and his close-range pressure is harder to escape from than Fox's, it requires strict timing.

Sorry that was a bit long. Those of you who may doubt my credentials as a Link player are welcome to play me at *Pound* V. I'm proud of how far I've come and am willing to defend my merits against anyone.
 

Skler

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I called it, didn't I?
Obviously if I disagree I'll ask why you think a matchup is what it is. Cryptically saying "If you were good you'd know" isn't reasoning. A forum is for discussing opinions, not saying "This is what I think, no arguments!"

Skler, you are a good Link player from what I saw at Pound 4. But, with respect, in case you forgot, you only won around 1-2 matches against me out of many, and that was not simply due to Link ditto knowledge.
You beat me two times and I beat you once, we played Link ditto friendlies. Don't drop the "with respect" shenanigans on me though, you just brought up friendlies as a case for you being better than me. Friendly dittos, more importantly.

I won't mention names out of respect (not trying to use them as stepping stones), but I've consistently beaten the best top/high tier character players. Enough insofar as to be considered a viable threat to them in tournaments. Sure I've lost too, they are excellent players who win often and using Link makes it even harder. But in any case, I've proven at least one thing: I can and have beaten most of the major top players with Link.
Wait, you consistently beat the best top/high tier players and then didn't make it out of 3rd round pools? With all due respect, if you're consistently beating the best then why didn't you beat them in tournament? With respect, wasn't your round 3 pool (I watched because I wanted to see a Link get into brackets) a Doc, Peach, Pikachu/Falco and Sheik (there should be one more in there, I honestly don't remember if there was or not)? With all due respect those are winnable matchups. I'm not trying to say I'd of made it out either, but (and this is with all the respect in the cosmos) you can't make such a lofty claim when evidence says otherwise. Please do drop some names, respectfully of course. Who are these top level players that you consistently beat in tournament? Friendlies are good fun, but most people won't use their best tactics because it's generally more fun to approach and try new things.

In order to make name dropping kosher, I'll list some people I've beaten in tournament off the top of my head (some of these players have also beaten me in tournament, actually a lot of them have). These players are amazing, they're generally better than me (especially now) and I hate going up against them in tournament because I know they're good. If any of you guys happened to name search your way here, please read the entire post and see it in context. You can drop my name if you want since most of you have beaten me anyways (my name isn't worth much though!)

Korean DJ (in low tier tournaments, various characters)
Keitaro (no idea if he still plays)
Tec0 (probably no way I'd beat him now)
Reno (I don't think a single game was ever more than a stock difference, I hate playing him).
G$ (he's beaten me more recently)
Hax (he's beaten me more recently, they're on youTube!)
Mango (link ditto in pools, lol. He curbed me with Falco/Sheik at pound 3)
Azen (link ditto in pools)
Cort (again, he usually beats me and I think he quit)
Darc (I think he's beaten me close to 9 times though whereas I've only won once)
Plank (he's beaten me more recently, Pound 4)
Chu Dat (granted he played Pika for two rounds after beating me with ICs once and it was pools)
Mathos
Mogwai (he's beaten me in tournament since I won my match against him)
Husband
Sastopher (old school)
eighteenspikes (I know the doc matchup way too well)
Sliq
DJNintendo (different characters on different occasions, he's also beaten me before).

So Mr. HDL, drop some names as I have shamelessly done. Who are these top players you beat in tournament? More importantly, which ones do you beat consistently? Friendlies don't count or else I'd have a whole lot of names under my belt that I don't deserve.


For the record, I didn't make it into round 3 pools at Pound 4. My second pool featured a circle camping Fox, two Sheiks and two Falcons. The Falcons were people who I had played before with Link and thus knew the matchup (ironically they are both Falcons whom I had never lost to before in friendlies, but I lost when it counted and that's all that matters) the Sheik was the one in your round 3 pool, the one you lost to. I know these are johns, but hey, I had a second pool that might as well have been custom made for beating me. In addition to that, Pound 4 was home of the worst night of my life (it was entirely my fault though).

Now, don't misconstrue me. I don't mean to say that you don't have knowledge on Link or his matchups. What I'm saying is that, if there's any part of you that feels you know everything or almost everything there is to know, therein lies the main problem.
It's not misconstruing you, you said you're better than me (though you did so respectfully) and thus correct. You clearly are, you performed slightly better at Pound 4 AND beat me in a friendly ditto. In teams I think we went dead even in spite of the state of mind I was in that day. Too bad.

I don't know everything, but I do know a lot about the Fox matchup because I get stuck with it all the time against really good Fox players. No offense, but Pound 4 was the first time you actually came to the US for a tournament, wasn't it? I've been exposed to this level of Fox forever. If you get circle camped by a good Fox you'll lose. It's just what happens. I was going to talk about matchups, you decided to have none of that.

I was like that before, once. I felt I had completely exhausted Link, like there was nothing left to learn because I had fully mastered him. And so I moved on to my 2nd-in-command, which became my main tournament character. It wasn't until I wised up and realized that there's so much more to explore that I came back to Link. Since then I have learned many things about him, to this day I am still amazed at how much he has to offer.
I don't think I've completely exhausted Link. I do think he'll never beat top Foxes that know the matchup, but I certainly don't think he's worthless or all figured out. He's a viable character against Peach and, more importantly, Jigglypuff. He can deal with most of the high tiers at a disadvantage and even stands a chance against Marth and Falco. Is he going to win a tournament on his own? Balls no. Will that stop me from trying? Balls no, I have more fun with him.

Even after Pound 4, I still learned new things. Most of them are little, not anything spectacular alone, but everything counts when accumulated. Bits of knowledge here and there. The only reason I even got to this point is because I challenged what I already thought to be true and correct, making revisions and adjustments wherever necessary. That's why I never believe my opinions to be firmly rooted, because if they are then there is no room for improvement. Instead, I have taken a more dynamic approach.
The thing is Link will never actually get faster. No matter how hard you try Link won't suddenly get Captain Falcon's dash speed and his boomerang will always take the same amount of frames to toss. Some matchups (Fox) are dependent on static things. Fox is faster than you and has a projectile that doesn't force him to slow down. He can use it while retreating. Link can't catch him when he retreats. Nothing will make that change.

There's always room for improvement, that's going to be true forever. Opinions don't have to be fluid because of that. If a Link learns to powershield Fox double lasers then circle camping is no longer a problem. Until then Fox is Link's hardest matchup by virtue of him having no control over it. Fox decides if you get a chance to hit him. He doesn't need to ever give you a chance.

I am not out to convince anyone of the heights I've reached with Link. I train for my personal benefit, not for any kind of recognition. But I wanted to post this because I was a little offended by Skler's insinuation that I do not have sound reasons for my thoughts on the matchups. Instead he just posted his opinions as if they were absolute truth. If you are still having such insane trouble with Fox (10-90?), it's because you have not mastered the matchup and you have not developed the qualities of a top player in general. The first step to improving is to discard the mistaken assertion that there is nothing left to learn.
Of course I'm going to post like my opinions are the truth. If I don't believe them I've got some weak opinions, don't I? If I said "well, I think Fox is pretty hard I guess" it doesn't come off with the same authority as "Fox is a total ***** and I hate him. I secretly get happy whenever I see a dead Fox by the side of the road" (protip: I don't actually like seeing dead Foxes in anything but Smash Brothers).

I never claimed you had no reasons, just that you hadn't given any (there's obviously reasoning behind everyone's opinion). You still haven't given sound reasoning though. You're just like a certain unnamed person in the MBR who just says things, gives no reasoning and then explains "I'm great so I'm right." People like that are shunned because they can't form a coherent argument. I'm also amazed you took my post personally. When somebody disagrees with me I don't go at their throat. If somebody calls me out then I'm obligated to. Feel special to be one of the only people to receive one of these posts from me. You certainly deserve it!

huMps I'll answer your question about Marth. Projectiles do not keep him out. They can only serve as an impediment, but sooner or later he will get in the danger zone. He only needs to move forward and block, staying on the ground and not jumping. Once there, he has solid offensive options for staying out of your CC range, grabbing you, hitting you with safe attacks past your jab range, and avoiding your grab. He's not totally safe, else Link couldn't win at all. But the top Marth players will not fall for most of the bologna projectile usage that most Link players tend to think will keep him away. They will not be so easily interrupted by Link's defending sword strikes. His pressure is difficult to deal with because almost everything he can do is safely out of your range, and most of Link's reliable counter measures are risky.
You explained your thoughts on a matchup. That's all you needed to do in the first place. I'd say that a grounded Marth can't defend against bombs reliably at all (if he swings at it he's grab bait, if he doesn't he's forced to give ground or get hit) and that those aren't nearly as large of an issue as Fox's insane advantages, but that would have been pretty much all I had to say. Instead you had that opening.

If you know the matchup, you can take advantage and interrupt them at key moments in their offense.
Ah, this is your problem. You still think good Foxes approach for some reason instead of plinking away with the laser. Maybe that's a bit harsh, some good Fox players will approach because they don't understand the MU very well. Double laser does 4-2% each short hop against Link. You have to approach, they can sit there and pew pew pew.
 

HDL

I like pork chops.
BRoomer
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Amongst haters
All right, it seemed to me that some parts of your post were not presented as respectfully as I would've liked (maybe the interpretation was different, but that's what I gathered), so I'm only going to respond to certain things that warrant it.

Pound 4 was not my first tournament, not in the states or anywhere else. In fact, Melee (or the Smash series in general) is not even my first competitive game.

About the matches, we played a lot more than a simple 2/3. In teams, it was definitely not "even" but let's just forget about that, there are obviously extra factors at work there.

As for what I posted before about matchups, if you notice I'm not actually arguing/debating with anyone. I dropped in quickly to state what I thought without giving many reasons, and noted that I don't like these threads for exactly this sort of thing that we're doing right now. If I had intended to discuss details with people, I would have elaborated more on what I said.

It's unfortunate if you didn't think I was sincere when I said "with respect." I can only give you my word, but if that's not enough for you then I'm afraid I have no obligation to placate you.

Regarding the players, this is perhaps the worst topic one can speak of in a competitive scene, or at least one of the worst. I certainly would not want to be included in such a discussion if one were to take place elsewhere, so I'm not about to do the same thing. It doesn't matter if you talk about what happens in tournament or in casuals, things tend to get ugly easily with these kinds of "discussions." And I'm certain you might misinterpret this as a subtle way of saying that I've done nothing special and that I'm trying get out of speaking about it, but I assure you that's not the case. Still think I'm full of it? Quite sorry if that's the case, but then it's like I said before, I play for my own personal benefit and not to convince anyone of anything. If I were, I'd be in these threads all day trying to make people see things my way.

Why didn't I get out of round 3 pools? Well sure, there are reasons. There are usually reasons for everything, but getting into that would probably take another post's worth of info and I'm not looking to degenerate the thread any further. You're welcome to PM me if you want an answer.

That is all, I'm done here.
 

Skler

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
4,514
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On top of Milktea
All right, it seemed to me that some parts of your post were not presented as respectfully as I would've liked (maybe the interpretation was different, but that's what I gathered), so I'm only going to respond to certain things that warrant it.
Oh it wasn't made respectfully at all. Your post was exceptionally rude and pompous, I responded with vigor! Perhaps you didn't mean to be as rude as you came off, but it sure came off badly.

Pound 4 was not my first tournament, not in the states or anywhere else. In fact, Melee (or the Smash series in general) is not even my first competitive game.
I honestly didn't know you had come to the states before this, I thought PR hadn't been here before. What tournament(s)? I know you've been to a bunch of tournaments in PR.

About the matches, we played a lot more than a simple 2/3. In teams, it was definitely not "even" but let's just forget about that, there are obviously extra factors at work there.
We only played one set, I think sleepyk or somebody was watching it. Our singles set was 2/3.

I mean teams in tournament. I remember playing teams friendlies with you for a while with somebody who I'd never teamed with before though (which explains a lot about why you keep saying we played more, I totally forgot about those). Is that what you think I meant? Both our teams placed equally if I remember, granted I haven't bothered to look at the results since the tournament. I do remember losing to PP and LoZR and then losing to another **** double space animal team later. I also remember beating the newlyweds, and some Sheik/Fox team (for the love of god all I ever play against is space animals and Sheiks).

As for what I posted before about matchups, if you notice I'm not actually arguing/debating with anyone. I dropped in quickly to state what I thought without giving many reasons, and noted that I don't like these threads for exactly this sort of thing that we're doing right now. If I had intended to discuss details with people, I would have elaborated more on what I said.
Dropping in on a discussion and saying your piece without backing it up has no place on a forum. Especially when you say such high-handed stuff like "if you were a top player" or "only the best understand this." It's saying that anybody who doesn't see things your way is not as good as you, which is extremely insulting. If you want to give your opinions without many reasons you should give them respectfully.

It's unfortunate if you didn't think I was sincere when I said "with respect." I can only give you my word, but if that's not enough for you then I'm afraid I have no obligation to placate you.
Saying "with respect" followed by something disrespectful is a pet peeve of mine. It makes things extra offensive because it sounds like you're talking down to whoever you say it to. The phrase "with respect" does not make whatever you say after it respectful at all unless what you say after it is actually respectful (I'm not sure if that sentence makes a lot of sense).

Regarding the players, this is perhaps the worst topic one can speak of in a competitive scene, or at least one of the worst. I certainly would not want to be included in such a discussion if one were to take place elsewhere, so I'm not about to do the same thing. It doesn't matter if you talk about what happens in tournament or in casuals, things tend to get ugly easily with these kinds of "discussions." And I'm certain you might misinterpret this as a subtle way of saying that I've done nothing special and that I'm trying get out of speaking about it, but I assure you that's not the case. Still think I'm full of it? Quite sorry if that's the case, but then it's like I said before, I play for my own personal benefit and not to convince anyone of anything. If I were, I'd be in these threads all day trying to make people see things my way.
You implied (well, pretty much outright said) that you were better than me. The most clear way to measure that is tournament success in large tournaments and the people that you have beaten in those tournaments. It's worth mentioning that the difference between being eliminated in the last round of pools is hardly different than being eliminated from the first round of brackets. Seeding does all sorts of wonky things up to that point (for example my first round of pools was almost entirely Peach players. Had I been an IC player things would have been pretty difficult, but I am not an IC player).

Results probably matter less (unless in the money or extremely high) than the people beaten. Who cares if I beat two random people that got lucky enough to make it into my pool/bracket than it does that I beat m2k (bear with the example) and then ended up losing my next game? Am I better if I place higher or beat a known player?

It doesn't bother me at all if somebody says they beat me as long as they actually did it. They got the win, it's entirely theirs. If they bring it up to me often then yeah, they're being a **** about it, but I don't mind it if they say "I beat Skler" when talking about how good they are. It's actually quite a compliment that they consider it an achievement!


Why didn't I get out of round 3 pools? Well sure, there are reasons. There are usually reasons for everything, but getting into that would probably take another post's worth of info and I'm not looking to degenerate the thread any further. You're welcome to PM me if you want an answer.
It's the statement you made about consistently beating good players that made ask that. Your Pound 4 bracket was almost a god send for a Link as far as characters you had to play goes (only one Sheik! No "real" space animal mains) so it only followed that if you consistently beat the best top tier players then you would be more than capable of winning that pool. Again, you had said you were better than me; I wanted to see some qualifiers.

Do not make such claims if you don't want to get into the most serious argument in the world, an internet argument. All it takes is a condescending attitude.
 

rhan

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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SoVA 757
@rhan- no way! Young Link totally wins. Ask THE DAZ(wa)! I actually haven't played a good YL in a while and really want to again.
See you at Pound 5? I didn't get to play you at Pound 4 in the hotel rooms cuz I was balls tierd and was passed out on the floor when Shaeman/Dr.PP was hogging you. xD
 

dablackpacman

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
592
Location
centerline, MI
i need someone to speed me up to date, i dont have the attention span long enough to read the books that HDL n Skler are writing each other, so whats goin on? Far from what i've seen in videos, HDL is without the best Link out there (debatable of course so dont attack me, i know Germ is excellent too), the fair-jab-jab-turn around utillt is so rediculously quick

im deff a noob at this game, been trying to post vids so u guys can tell me where i need to improve and work on (havent gotten much feedback so i guess i really suck). i feel like a have a lil bit of knowledge on match-ups, but thats just bcuz i dont own the game, so to practice i just watch vids of u guys
 

cjugs

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
521
Location
Where amazing happens
Lol i read them and they were entertaining.
Hm i haven't really said alot due to my knowledge of teams lack of i mean.
You should read them btw, as far as where you are lacking ide say you are way to agressive and are sort of a button masher so try to be more precise and learn spacing before you go crazy.

I hate to start a debate but i'm not so sure HDL is the best link player and i don't think our skler gets enough credit for instance germ gets beat by SS scar and such, so does HDL and skler none of them get ***** it's hard to say who's best because of the amount they have all accomplished but i don't think any of them are far beyond the other level wise they do about the same in tourny i would say.
I will however go on saying GERM is more popular than the others and HDL looks better because skler's link is slower but is also verrrrrrrrrry precise which doesn't exactually make it better or worse. I think GERM is probably the most fun to watch but idk it's close i really enjoy watching sklers link too and hdl idk it's close i still Heart you though Skler <3 Hey what the **** is your name is skler like a tag made from your name or what?

EDit:
I do however think skler is the best at link dittos and Maybe the worst against fast fallers due to how he is very slow in how he moves buuuuuuuuuuut idk hard to say.
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
wtf, I'm subscribed here?

anyway.

comparing 3 different players from 3 different regions with very little tourney playing overlap within a reasonable time frame is completely ******** and I discourage the Link boards from turning it into a subjective e-peen contest.

unsubscribed. *poof*
 

Skler

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
4,514
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On top of Milktea
Lol i read them and they were entertaining.
Hm i haven't really said alot due to my knowledge of teams lack of i mean.
You should read them btw, as far as where you are lacking ide say you are way to agressive and are sort of a button masher so try to be more precise and learn spacing before you go crazy.

I hate to start a debate but i'm not so sure HDL is the best link player and i don't think our skler gets enough credit for instance germ gets beat by SS scar and such, so does HDL and skler none of them get ***** it's hard to say who's best because of the amount they have all accomplished but i don't think any of them are far beyond the other level wise they do about the same in tourny i would say.
I will however go on saying GERM is more popular than the others and HDL looks better because skler's link is slower but is also verrrrrrrrrry precise which doesn't exactually make it better or worse. I think GERM is probably the most fun to watch but idk it's close i really enjoy watching sklers link too and hdl idk it's close i still Heart you though Skler <3 Hey what the **** is your name is skler like a tag made from your name or what?

EDit:
I do however think skler is the best at link dittos and Maybe the worst against fast fallers due to how he is very slow in how he moves buuuuuuuuuuut idk hard to say.
I do really bad against Falcon, but I also feel like the only matches that get recorded when I'm against Falcon are the ones I lose. Then again the only matches that I get recorded against Falco are ones I win (except that 5 year old one against Th0rn, which is back when I was mad terrible, not that I've ever beaten him in singles). Ideally I'll get to kdj again this weekend, which will be super fun and enjoyable. It's been far too long since me and a tournament got to together.


Edit: My tag is my name minus one vowel.


Mogwai, your post didn't address your studliness enough.
 

rhan

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
6,107
Location
SoVA 757
EDit:
I do however think skler is the best at link dittos and Maybe the worst against fast fallers due to how he is very slow in how he moves buuuuuuuuuuut idk hard to say.
I think Skler and Shaeman are even on Link dittos.

Players I seen him beat:

Germ
Blazing
Spife
Skler's friend (I forgot his name.. But they played on the livestream at Pound 4.)
Me (LOL I main Young Link)
Skler(?) <- Can't remember if that happened or not.

 

dablackpacman

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
592
Location
centerline, MI
I dont like comparing smash players at all. Its like comparing rap artist. People have different styles and tactics and people react differently in different situations. I like to go based off the amount of precise timings and the level of difficulty in the combos. Because I have seen HDL use the bomb jump recovery effectively and repeatedly without fail, his degree of understanding with Link is incredible. To air dodge, fastfall and grapple battlefield's ledge is not something done simply nor is a turn around utilt in a combo.

I give Skler mad props all the time and I'm sure what we say doesnt effect any of the guys because they know the level of skill the play at and Germ was the one who got me back into the Hero of Time
 

cjugs

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
521
Location
Where amazing happens
I dont like comparing smash players at all. Its like comparing rap artist. People have different styles and tactics and people react differently in different situations. I like to go based off the amount of precise timings and the level of difficulty in the combos. Because I have seen HDL use the bomb jump recovery effectively and repeatedly without fail, his degree of understanding with Link is incredible. To air dodge, fastfall and grapple battlefield's ledge is not something done simply nor is a turn around utilt in a combo.

I give Skler mad props all the time and I'm sure what we say doesnt effect any of the guys because they know the level of skill the play at and Germ was the one who got me back into the Hero of Time
All i am hearing about this is you are impressed with HDL's technical style as am i and everyone can apprciate it, but most technical doesn't mean best overal character. Example silent wolf may not be the best fox although he is one of them as is HDL one of the best links but doesn't make them better.
 

dablackpacman

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
592
Location
centerline, MI
All i am hearing about this is you are impressed with HDL's technical style as am i and everyone can apprciate it, but most technical doesn't mean best overal character. Example silent wolf may not be the best fox although he is one of them as is HDL one of the best links but doesn't make them better.
not sure where ur point was in this unless u was just adding on to what i say. but whatever, why are we even arguing as to whos better then who. cant we all just get along? lol nah foreal though, we are suppose to be helping make each others links better. cjugs is prolly a better link then me, but that shouldnt mean he wuldnt want me to hit top 5 at Sweet II. id love to see HDL and Skler both make it to top 20 at Pound V
 

cjugs

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
521
Location
Where amazing happens
not sure where ur point was in this unless u was just adding on to what i say. but whatever, why are we even arguing as to whos better then who. cant we all just get along? lol nah foreal though, we are suppose to be helping make each others links better. cjugs is prolly a better link then me, but that shouldnt mean he wuldnt want me to hit top 5 at Sweet II. id love to see HDL and Skler both make it to top 20 at Pound V
My point was just because a player is technical doesn't make him better so i'm not convinced that HDL >>>skler.
I wasn't trying to argue i was just discussing,
I think my link was better over the summer it's harder to say now. pacman would prolly be better than me if he had better ppl to play with and didn't dj all the time.
 

dablackpacman

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2009
Messages
592
Location
centerline, MI
got ya. been working on my spacing so that i dont get shield grabbed as much n working to make my attacks more precise. love the up-b to grab the ledge thou, mad legit
 
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