Luigi's Match-Up Chart thread

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Luigi's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

You should've just posted in this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283735

Also there's about as many posters in these forums as there are in the Kirby boards. And Ka-master never posts...

~_~

I just got all 26 down quickly without looking around on each board.

If you want to use this thread, simply for dumping numbers, and keep discussion in the one already around, that'd be fine by me. :3

Time to post my opinions then

(format is Luigi - Other Character)
(this is what I think the matchups are if both sides know the matchup well. Almost nobody has Luigi experience though, so in practice Luigi's matchups are a lot better than this)

Fox: 40-60
Falco: 30-70
Jiggs: 50-50
Sheik: 30-70
Marth: 40-60
Falcon: 35-65

After this I don't really have solid opinions, but still:

Peach: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 55-45
Samus: 45-55
Ganon: 40-60
Doc: 45-55
Mario: 55-45

After that I have no clue

Man, now we need Falco discussion to see if Falco is really that bad or if Winston just sucks at the matchup

Whatever, numbers are stupid, I just have Falco as harder than Fox/Falcon/Marth/Ganon. Idk how difficult Falco is compared to Sheik. Those are Luigi's 2 worst matchups, I'm pretty sure.

Maybe if the Luigi player could powershield like Diakonos it wouldn't be so bad...

Do Pakman and Blea Gleo post here at all? I believe Ka-Master is inactive.

Luigi boards are godawful in terms of activity.

Pakman and Blea post occasionally though.

Vist doesn't like talking about matchups, haha

I could pull up some of Pakman's posts in the chart thread. Does anyone here have any contact with them?

falco and falcon arent that bad. a falcon it's harder to beat than a falco. sheik goes 25- 75. ka master is not inactive either, i think he's still playing. he has some gf videos recorded with silentwolf. i think it was after pound 4. but he does not posts here.

Those vids are pretty old

Man, that Sheik matchup being so terrible ...

I dunno about Falcon being harder to beat than Falco ~_~ Falco just has all the tools to be gay - Dair screws up CC, simple late Dair shine -> fading Nair is apparently really hard to get around, getting hit by shine sends you up and then you worry about being below Falco which is never a good thing, lasers stuff approach, Dair stuffs approach, Dair kills, the combos

With Falcon you just dance around and then he ***** you if you screw up haha, he can't force things nearly as well as Falco can in my experience

that depends a lot on the person who is using the character. remember luigi is not a fox, or falco, or anyhthingk like it. u have to really improvise. and use experience. so discussing luigi's matchups, has to be spoken a lot

Ka Master has been retired for almost 2 years. He came back for a few months to play 2 tourneys (won one and got 17th and Pound [same placing as Axe etc if you want comparison for the time]) then again not too long ago and did great again (but he's gone again). Still, he's oldschool and simply opened doors to what Luigi can do, but he never came close to the current metagame standard with Luigi in comparison to other characters.

He's a backbone of sorts, but Luigi has much more to offer and nobody has really brought what Ka did to the next level. Most of the other better Luigi's I'm aware of don't post often or at all (some probably even unheard of as far as the boards go) but there are a few active ones for sure, and yet nobody really has been able to match a Ka in the modern game.

Luigi is by FAR the MOST awkward/unsmashlike character in the game. It's more difficult to play Luigi and OTHER characters well than it is to play 2 of ANY OTHER couple together. This makes it difficult to go fluently from high level as another character TO high level as Luigi. It almost has to come from the ground up, Luigi all the way through. It can happen, but it's unlikely and hasn't been very close yet. I hope it will soon.

Any match up has to be discussed a lot. It's not a simple thing in this game by any means. It's even more difficult for a character that hasn't really taken hold of any high placing or any uprise of good players/a single good player in a LONG time. There are many that are good and show Luigi is good, but HOW good can't be determined unless really analysed.

With that...

ON TOPIC :

The only SIGNIFICANT DISADVANTAGES for Luigi are Peach, Shiek, Fox and Falcon. A few are MINOR but not even note worthy in any way (if at all).
PS again: Falco and Marth suck. lol
HA!

PS: There is no way that Luigi, Mario or Pikachu are worse than characters like Ganon.
Ganon is too easy to use, of COURSE people will be good with him ALL over the place a LOT.

Not even a chance.

Never came close to the current metagame standard? Isn't he the Luigi metagame standard? He's the only Luigi that's really made any progress in national tournaments as far as I can tell, and I don't think the Luigi metagame has really changed like, at all ... what exactly can you be doing at the "next level" of Luigi other than just playing better?

Also Falco ***** Luigi ~_~
I don't see why Peach is so bad, as far as I can tell it's just a dumb floaty matchup where you can't combo very well

Blea Gelo said:

falco and falcon arent that bad. a falcon it's harder to beat than a falco. sheik goes 25- 75. ka master is not inactive either, i think he's still playing. he has some gf videos recorded with silentwolf. i think it was after pound 4. but he does not posts here.

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hes been inactive since pound. he only play at that one tournament and was rusty

Ka is THE Luigi metagame, and Ka hasn't brought the metagame further for almost year because he DOES NOT play.
So yeah, he's the backbone, and there are limbs. But he's gone so gg, re or no?

Ka don lose to great Flacos. He eats them alive.
I now barely lose and sometimes win against the same Flacos.
And I suck, I'm not near that high level and yet this happens?
Flaco sucks.
edit: Otto knows. ^^^

Gustav Wind said:

Time to post my opinions then

(format is Luigi - Other Character)
(this is what I think the matchups are if both sides know the matchup well. Almost nobody has Luigi experience though, so in practice Luigi's matchups are a lot better than this)

Fox: 40-60
Falco: 30-70
Jiggs: 50-50
Sheik: 30-70
Marth: 40-60
Falcon: 35-65

After this I don't really have solid opinions, but still:

Peach: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 55-45
Samus: 45-55
Ganon: 40-60
Doc: 45-55
Mario: 55-45

After that I have no clue

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Luigi probably has better numbers against IC's. Luigi is at worst 50-50 with samus IMO. Just because falcon can actually combo Luigi, shouldn't drive him to be completely dominated by him. 35 is a bit too much. High level foxes are harder than high level falcons. If sheik is 30 Falco should be 35.

Didn't he lose to Silent Wolf in that set?
Anyways, if you're going to count your personal success vs Falco, I'll say that my crappy Falco that I hardly ever play does better against my roommate, who is a Luigi main, than any of my other characters.

~_~

Alright, so I have justifications for my opinions about Fox/Falcon, but I'm not confident enough in to argue strongly for them. Here they are anyway:

Falcon

I think Falcon can play really safe against Luigi (kind of like how he spaces and pressures vs Ice Climbers, but he gets to grab when the opportunity arises) and be able to get combo opportunities without putting himself at too much risk. Knee and bair, which are his safest moves, lead to potentially lethal combos. Even when Falcon drops a combo, as long as he doesn't overextend himself and get hit by nair Luigi is usually left in a disadvantaged position (floating in the air) and its likely that Falcon can get another hit and continue.

When Luigi actually hits Falcon, with good DI and teching Luigi has to really work for his combos. Uthrow at most percents if DIed backwards leads to either an unprofitable techchase situation or to nothing. Downsmashes can be DIed, approaching Usmashes often send them in the other direction that Luigi is moving, Luigi's coverage of platform teching options is incomplete usually, etc. Of course combos can and do happen, but I feel that if the Falcon is aware of Luigi's options and is used to reacting to them each hit is at best 50/50 to lead into another hit. Luigi also doesn't have many options to force Falcon to guess which way he should DI.

In practice I don't think there are any Falcons that play this matchup to the extent the character is capable of, since almost nobody has a lot of Luigi experience. It usually feels like only a slight disadvantage or even, and I'm never worried about playing vs. Falcon in tournament. I just think that it's very possible for Falcon to be played so that it's close to 35-65. I wouldn't really object to 40-60, though. If you guys have more reliable ways to combo Falcon that I don't know about it could be close to even.

Fox

As for Fox being 40-60, I always thought Fox was worse than this, but on I was just kind of deferring to Vist and Raynex's opinions on the matchup. (Raynex basing it on playing the Fox side of things vs Ka-master). It seems like Luigi has better defenses in this matchup due to a combination of crouch cancelling/ASDI down and DIing shines away to grab the edge of the stage and reset the position. I know it is very, very hard to hit a good Fox, but I feel like Falcon can achieve the same thing while getting a way higher reward off of any hits he does get.

Other stuff

About ICs, it's mostly based on discussion with people in the ICs board. Wobbles hates the matchup apparently but Fly, Nintendude, Kyu Puff and others think it's close to even. ICs have some pretty good tools to defend against Luigi's approach with (Ice Blocks and Blizzard), they have options against Luigi's attacks on shield if they are facing backwards, and reasonable punishment off of grab (some sort of grab attacks + blizzard into usmash into uair into chase Luigi from below).

About Samus, I have no idea.

About Sheik and Falco: I think these are Luigi's two hardest matchups, but I don't know the order between the two. Most Luigis would say Sheik so we'll go with that I guess.

It is about high level match ups. Ka VS SW isn't as noteworthy because they play each other all the time. It is the same reason I try not to let Cactuar, Scar, and the people I used to play often affect my decision on match ups because they know my play style.

Nationals are really good for match up stuff.

Ka-master playing people who don't know the Luigi matchup that well is pretty poor evidence too though.

If we want to go by tournament results and stuff Luigi players have usually done better vs Fox than vs Falcon...

Eddie Mexico beating Lucky and Colbol before, you almost beat Lucky at P4, Vist's matches at Apex, etc.

Peach Luigi is 60-40 or 55-45 for Peach favour I think.

Luigi is a lil' annoying.

Sheik could be 70-30 or 65-35. Probably the higher number though. Sheik is so gay to him.

Silent Wolf said:

hes been inactive since pound. he only play at that one tournament and was rusty

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that sucks :S.

btw. wenboular, falco matchup isnt that bad :S.

^ didn't you say Falco is 35:65 in the other thread? that's pretty bad

Pakman said:

Ka VS SW isn't as noteworthy

Click to expand...

Isn't as noteworthy compared to what?
hahaha

It's the Fox that knows how to play against a top level Luigi AS Fox more than anyone in the world, and the Luigi that knows how to play against a top level Fox AS Luigi more than anyone in the world.

Nationals are cute though.


Darkrain beating Ka twice and (both of them lol) losing to not-quite-as-good Shieks are 2 decent pointers.

Fox, Marth, Peach, Jiggs and Falco are a ***** to everyone.

Only Fox and Peach are 'decent' pains as far as I've seen. Marth, Jiggs and Falco aren't bad or good as far as I'm concerned.
Peach and Fox are the ? for me. I don't like either of them.
Still fun though.

Gustav Wind said:

^ didn't you say Falco is 35:65 in the other thread? that's pretty bad

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NA, its not as bad as you think, u got more than 30percent

Bamesy said:

Isn't as noteworthy compared to what?
hahaha

It's the Fox that knows how to play against a top level Luigi AS Fox more than anyone in the world, and the Luigi that knows how to play against a top level Fox AS Luigi more than anyone in the world.

Nationals are cute though.


Darkrain beating Ka twice and (both of them lol) losing to not-quite-as-good Shieks are 2 decent pointers.

Fox, Marth, Peach, Jiggs and Falco are a ***** to everyone.

Only Fox and Peach are 'decent' pains as far as I've seen. Marth, Jiggs and Falco aren't bad or good as far as I'm concerned.
Peach and Fox are the ? for me. I don't like either of them.
Still fun though.

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pakman is right, tho u have a good point. but you cant just let ur eyes to ka like if he were a god or something. that is making u to get quick and fast answers. eddie mexico did good vs lucky. like i said before, it's the player playstile. luigi isnt a top tier, so ther's no strict combors or something, u have to improvise a lot. fox isnt a bad match up. it's just hard to get. if ur good at grabbing, nairing, or taking fox to a combeable point. and also good at completing combos, ull do ok. thats whats the match up is about. also u gotta play deffensive vs fox. remember ur not giving urself to get owned, at least u do. i deffend myself.

srry for double posting, i just dont know how to quote, in an already made post

Falco is as easy for Luigi as Luigi is for Falco.

/endstorybro

\newstorybro

Luigi isn't low tier, that's for sure. LOL
I wouldn't count top out, especially not high, but that's not to be determined anytime soon. lol

1 Note: Luigi can move faster than almost any character in the game while SHIELDING. He can be the most defensively offensive character in the game (my LLL thread covers that I think)

2 Note: Every player and character has to improvise a lot to do well. It's the nature of this ridiculously flexible game and it's what makes it so open and always growing. Awesome!

Nothing about 'being good' should be mentioned in match up discussion.
Match ups at the HIGHEST LEVEL is what makes or breaks a match up.
I destroy Shieks with Falcon sometimes, but there's no way it's in Falcons favor as a Shiek at my level (/my Shiek) would wreck my Falcon.
The same would be said if the Axe destroyed bad Shieks. Shiek at his level would still beat his Pika.

Match up = Highest level + Equal level

Make sure that's on your mind when on this topic.

Does anyone want to actually argue some matchups? Some reason there's a bunch of posts here but it's mostly about unimportant stuff ~_~

Let's start on Falco because apparently Falco is so easy right

So, what are Luigi's answers / responses to ...

A. Spaced lasers
B. Dair in place in reaction to wavedashes forward
C. Low Dair on shield -> shine -> fading Nair
D. Getting shined

I don't really know what Luigi can feasibly do if Falco threatens out of immediate striking range but inside the range where Luigi can wavesmash. If you try to wavedash in you get a Dair, if you try to jump and attack Falco and just laser you.

I'd love to play some more Luigis with my janky Falco, I'll be at Pound 5 so hopefully I'll see some of you there

Kirby vs Luigi go

Kirby vs Luigi - Unwinnable : (100 - Unwinnable)

(I have no idea of course)

About the matchups that people are disagreeing about... why don't we decide on tiers/order of difficulty first before talking about numbers? Numbers are pretty silly, it's the relative order of difficulty that's important imo. We can assign numbers after we agree on the order.

Stuff within the tiers is supposed to be close in difficulty, but in order.

So compiling various peoples' opinions we have something like:

Worst
Sheik
Falco

Pretty Bad
Fox/Falcon (being debated)

Kinda Bad but not really
Ganon/Marth/Peach (?)

Pretty Much Even
Doc
Jiggs/Samus
ICs/Mario

Why are you laughing exactly

Bamesy if you want to be taken seriously about Falco/Luigi being even you should argue your case a bit better.

it seems u dont really have it bamesy. im not saying u dont have to improvise with any other character of the roster.. but there are centain hits, taht goes right after another with some characters with no mistake. wiith luigi u have to play like i say in spanish, al filo de la navaja. ''with the edge of the knife'' u may know what that means. be more open minded bro, and start thinking the possibilities the other peple is giving u. no offense dude. dont get angry. kiss* haha

well gustav, for me it is like this:

worst:
sheik

pretty bad:
fox
falcon

kiknda bad:
falco
ganon
marth
peach

maybe marth is above ganon for me beacuse i know how to space it better.. i dont really know. but i know they are one above other. but not for much

Wenbobular said:

Why are you laughing exactly

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Because it's funny how he has sheik is luigi's worst match-up. You can combo the hell out of sheik.

Clearly Luigi's worse Match is by Far Mario.

His Second worst is Zelda. You can't stop the power of the Fair/Bair.

O I see
Funny joke

Wenbobular said:

O I see
Funny joke

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nah i'm serious. you scrubs just need to learn how to fight Sheik and stop complaining. Same with us scrubby Marths. Same with those Scrubby Falcons. Same with those Scrubby Pikachu's, Same with those Scrubby Ganons.

Seriously though once you learn to fight Sheik it's actually not terrible at all. I've seen Luigi's play close with Sheiks on more than one occasion.

Yo dude you're taking this joke toooo far ¬.¬

But if you actually want to argue about Sheik, I'm sure you'll find that there's plenty of evidence supporting how Sheik ***** Luigi ~_~
~_~_~_~_~

Also I'd like to point out just how important matchup experience is in this matchup. Know how to DI everything Luigi does makes it very hard to combo as Luigi

Wenbobular said:

Yo dude you're taking this joke toooo far ¬.¬

But if you actually want to argue about Sheik, I'm sure you'll find that there's plenty of evidence supporting how Sheik ***** Luigi ~_~
~_~_~_~_~

Also I'd like to point out just how important matchup experience is in this matchup. Know how to DI everything Luigi does makes it very hard to combo as Luigi

Click to expand...

In all Seriousness I'll give u that. If you know what to do vs Luigi as a Sheik it changes alot. if you try to Dsmash luigi's Dsmash you'll get *****. however Luigi's with lots of Sheik experience may lose but the matches are always close losses. I think Luigi's game overall is underrated/underdeveloped. He's like Pikachu Pre-Axe Effect.