Ness's Match-Up Chart thread

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Ness's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

I suppose people don't really play Ness, but no one can help out? =(

At least three people in the world play Ness to some degree, by which I mean that at least three people ever post on the Ness boards.

See, the problem with my opinion is that it doesn't really count for anything; though I definitely know my stuff when it comes to melee, I'm still really bad. For what it's worth, I do beat my friends, who are of roughly equal skill as me, when I use Ness; I'll give you my unimportant opinion.

First of all, people give Ness too much crap because of his recovery. I'm not denying that it's garbage, but many people think that knocking Ness off the stage equals a free kill, when it really doesn't. That being said, If there's any character that edgeguards Ness without even thinking, it's Puff. Ness has a terrible matchup vs. puff, as far as I can tell. Ness has some good kill moves against puff, so I wouldn't say the MU is a 10-0 or 9-1 jiggs; Bair and FSmash are just plain powerful, as is Backthrow (if you ever somehow grab a puff); even with good DI, puff would have to be on DL or something to survive those moves at around 100+%. The move that I personally find helpful in the MU is Ness's Uair. It's fast, with decent priority and a large hitbox above and to the sides of Ness, and it kan KO jiggs at a decent percent, especially if you catch Jiggs in the air.

Long story short, I feel that Jiggs:Ness is probably between 80-20 and 70-30. Again, that's just my unimportant opinion.

Fox: 20:80
Falco: 10:90
Sheik: 10:90
Marth: 25:75
Jiggs: 20:80
CF: 15:85
Peach: 40:60
Ganon: 30:70
Ice Climbers: 35:65
Samus: 30:70
Doc: 45:55
Mario: 35:65
Luigi: 40:60
DK: 50:50
Pikachu: 40:60
Young Link: 40:60
Link: 40:60
Zelda: 50:50
GAW: 50:50
Mewtwo: 48:62
Yoshi: 50:50
Roy: 45:55
Kirby: 60:40
Bowser: 70:30
Pichu: 70:30

fox easier than falco?!

actually i can see that nvm

this is like impossible to do when it comes to low tiers cuz the arbitrary nature of match up numbers is even more problematic.

like whats the difference between 10-90 and 30-70? how do you even measure that.

lol falcon isnt worse than fox and marth. falco isn't equivalent to sheik. He's easier. Both spacies matchups are like the same. Peach is harder than the spacies. ice climbers are much easier than everything above. They all beat ness

^ my opinions on zelda's list

we should realistically have 6 or 7 ratios

and say it's each characters' likelihood of winning on <legal stage>

and then go through all of them

Well why don't start out with Fox?

If you land a grab on him, you can get a lot of damage. Edgeguarding him is easy. Bair/nair the side-b and fair up-b. I think ness needs to land a spaced dash attack, a grab, or an up air to do any noticeable damage on Fox. U-tilt beats his aerials.

Fox has lots of combos on ness, an easy time edguarding him, easy gimping him and can camp him with lasers, shield pressure, killing him with up-smash, other fox things...

It's a bad matchup for Ness. I'm bad at doing number ratios though... I feel it's easier than Peach and Shiek but others think it's his hardest matchup...

Best stage is FD because it allows you to 0-death combo him.

Dunno about worst... FoD is decent, yoshi's doesn't let him run away from you, dl 64 lets you live longer and you can combo him in the center part, battlefield messes up your combos but makes it harder for him to camp you.

I don't count pokemon stadium as neutral. It's definitely advantageous for Fox in this matchup.

Might be preference/lack of experience, but I don't like Yoshi's because sometimes you can't track off-screen Shyguys that eat PKT as well as the sloped ledge. Recovering low is usually a bad option as well.

Gimping with Ness is a lot more riskier than with Fox for sure. If you whiff, then it will cost you a stock. So Ness usually has to be on stage rather than off.

Fox has a lot more options in the matchup from pressure to recovering.

I agree that Yoshi's is Ness's worst neutral. Shyguys can gimp you in two different ways, and the stage's ledges sometimes mess up your sweetspot. I like FoD as a stage, but for Ness it's not the best, especially for the fox match-up. DL and FD are the best. BF is fine, and Fox will get battlefielded more than Ness. As for cp stages, Fox can camp that bananas out of Ness on KJ, but I personally don't mind going to PS. It's to fox's advantage, but I still like it.

Ness's combos on fox are brutal (and vice versa) and there's not doubt that it's not too good for Ness, but I don't think it's Ness's worst. Sage pretty much summed up my opinions on the Fox MU pretty well.

But hey, that's just my very humble opinion.

yoshis isnt that bad for ness

usually when you have to recover yur pretty dead anyways vs a good player. ness excels on smaller stages cuz its harder to camp him

I agree with Macman, plus the smaller stage makes it easier for combos because the platforms let you follow up sometimes. The fact that you can't be camped on that stage is awesome.

Unfortunately Ness players are a rarity. I have no idea why I went from using Falcon to Ness. Either way, I use him now. I'm probably not playing smart, but usually when I go against my brother's Samus, getting Ness off the stage puts him in a bad position. A simple Bomb > f-smash stops Ness' PKT2/recovery, and Samus can usually fire off projectile to mess with Ness' recovery.

Versus Link, I think Ness has a pretty good chance against him. Equal if not in Link's favor at the slightest. Yoshi is pretty much a good match for Ness, I think. My friend uses both Yoshi and Link and his Link gives my Ness somewhat of a rougher time, but Yoshi isn't as bad of a match.

Link can easily destroy Ness's recovery if Ness is in the air

I'm of the opinion the Ness Yoshi is even. They both destroy each other equally everywhere. They **** each other with their combos on each other. Yoshi edgeguards Ness easily, but yoshi has a **** recovery and pkt eats it if he's above 95 or something. Play this matchup on dk64 it's so fun.

Zeldasmash, what you said doesn't make sense. If you are recovering, you'd obviously be in the air...

I haven't fought any decent Link players recently but I do know they combo each other pretty well and they both edgeguard each other well (use pkt to turn him around and then use pk flash).

But guys let's focus on one matchup at a time k. Fox naow.

I actually gimped my friends Link with PKT today. It was funny. Anyway, on topic, Fox is rather difficult to be honest. My friends Fox who isn't even at my level gives me some trouble. I'm still able to defeat him with at least two stocks still left, but in all honesty, I think Fox can really screw Ness over. Because Ness relies on the air, Fox's ground attacks seem a little easy to land and can even kill if you're at high enough percent.

After the video thesage posted up, though, with Nessby chain throwing Fox, it seems that this can be helpful. As I stated in the other topic, I was fighting my friends Fox yesterday and I was able to chain throw him until +40%, which isn't too bad if you ask me. The unfortunate part is that Ness has bad grab range, but it's still not impossible to do.

You're not really supposed to chainthrow fox with just uair, ur supposed to combo with uair. It's like low percents you cg if he di's away and if he doesn't di you uair to grab him. Then at mid percents you uair him, at high percents you d-throw him if for some reason you can't b-throw him off the stage.

I wish f-throw had a lower angle so that way you could gimp with it.