Zelda's Match-Up Chart thread

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Zelda's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

starting this off.

heres my latest opinion on zelda matchups

10:90
25:75
30:70
30:70
35:65
40:60
40:60
40:60
45:55
50:50
50:50
50:50
55:45
60:40
65:35
70:30
70:30

some are more certain than others. if you have any questions about these I can answer them and discuss and tell you why I think these are ranked this way

however I don't know about these really:

??:??
??:??
??:??
??:??
??:??
??:??
??:??
??:??

alright, lets figure this out. opinions? let's get some discussion going. also welcoming non-zelda players in here to debate w/ us

I agree that Sheik is 90:10.

Yep. you'd think that not being chaingrabbed would give zelda a big plus but sadly a sheik that plays off of reaction can simply gain too many guaranteeds. the difference that makes fox easier IMO is mostly that a throw does not lead into a KO move (fox also gets gimped and edgeguarded at early %s)

Sheik's KOs against a lot of characters usually comes from a fair or uair. What does that mean? It means sheik's grab (which she will get, playing reactionary style), combos into her best KO moves against Zelda.

Throw in Needle camping, and you got a near impossible matchup.

A set with mew2king making me look like an idiot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlUUbPVKLIA

I probably could have played this better, and m2k is leagues better than I am, but you cannot avoid the simple truth here, this is not a winnable matchup.

Sheik can kill Zelda with moves or grabs.

And Zelda doesn't like that.

How come you think Marth vs Zelda is so bad Cosmo?
I usually don't have too much trouble with Marth, comparibly to the Samus vs Marth matchup.

I agree with cosmo for most of that except samus marth and falco
Samus I think is 55:45
Marth 35:65
Falco 45:55
Numbers on the left representing zelda

I wouldn't use m2k shiek as an example I think hax and scar said something like the shiek
Matchup is not bad (for falcon) it's just m2k shiek will falter your hope cuz he's leagues ahead of us. Although tope 3 stocked me lol

Oops double post sorry

Umbreon posted these in another thread

Umbreon said:

my opinion on zelda matchups

20:80

10:90

25:75

35:65

45:55

50:50

40:60

40:60

50:50

60:40

60:40

copied cosmo's format and changed the ratios somewhat. eliminated characters that don't matter.

Click to expand...

I can definitely see where you guys are coming from, I think I may have jumped the gun on a few of these. 35:65 marth is probably closer to the truth, I just keep thinking in my head about how when Marth plays perfect he straight up wins; he must make mistakes to let Zelda in. that's true of most of his matchups, though.

Falco, I can see it too. Powershielding is easier than I had realized. A falco who plays 100% defense will lose. but a Falco who plays 50% defense and 50% offense will win. I cannot judge easily how much he wins by because little things like a gimp can drastically change a match.

Sheik still feels miserably bad though.

What do you guys think of young link? I find him Pretty hard to beat when he's campy on a big enough map he is fast enough it feels like he could run forever until you have enough damage. I think mew2 vs Zelda is 45:55 in mew2s favor and I think luigi is either 50:50 or 55:45 in zeldas favor thoughts?? Also I find pichu really hard to kick and his speed is good enough he can get in pretty easy although I've never played a crazy good pichu so I can't put in too much but I did play iori's mew2.

Cosmo! said:

10:90

25:75

30:70

35:65

45:55

50:50

40:60

40:60

40:60

50:50

50:50

55:45

50:50

60:40

65:35

70:30

40:60 Not sure

55:45

45:55

45:55

35:65

70:30

??:?? No opinion

60:40

45:55

Click to expand...

My opinions.

I think I might believe Fox and Shiek might both be 10:90 But I keep fighting shieks and foxes that play very aggro because I'm low tier. which makes the matches alot closer to even than they probably should. Tope imo plays very defensively, which is why he owned me alot harder than Plank or other shieks i've played. M2k is also very defensive. I think If I stopped playing Aggro foxes. My opinion of fox would match that of mows. But because I haven't, my opinion stays closer to cosmos'

m2k and tope owned me equally as hard being 3 stocks if not a 4stock once by mew2king. Campy shiek is really really hard.

Falco 45:55?
Fox 25:75
Doc 50:50
Ganon 40:60
Game & Watch 55:45?
Falcon 25:75-30:70?
ICs 60:40
Jigglypuff 40:60
Mario 50:50?
Marth 35:65
Roy 70:30?
Sheik 10:90?
Yoshi 65:35?

Does Zelda really have an advantage over ICs? Cool. =)

blowtoes said:

How come you think Marth vs Zelda is so bad Cosmo?
I usually don't have too much trouble with Marth, comparibly to the Samus vs Marth matchup.

Click to expand...

I think what you do vs Samus is much more obvious than what you do vs Zelda.

Zelda's an awkward character.

hopefully TheLake sees this thread soon, we're missing his opinion

about IC
you have 4 moves
fsmash, dsmash, fair, bair

these moves wreck them and separate them easily, nana is 1 kick away from death after separation, and then zelda straight up beats popo and doesn't let him in. their fast WD speed is negated by zelda's ability to control air in front of her with kicks. the openings zelda leaves are incredibly small because you can dsmash after a kick and it comes out in 4 frames lol. fsmash when you think they will WD and they get destroyed. ban FD and don't let them grab you. easy 3 stocks.

i was wrong about marth, its 35-65 or maybe even 40-60

falco is probably 40-60

samus is like 55-45

i think the confusion about jiggs is finally settling into like a 40-60 matchup

for a fuller MU chart, I think Zelda hardcore destroys other low tiers for the most part. Zelda only really loses to DD camping or shieldgrabbing into reliable kill moves. Since the lower tiers generally don't have those, they aren't really threatening to Zelda. Even for Mewtwo to beat Zelda, which I think he does, it's SUPER close and relies on Mewtwo camping hard the entire match. Even then I beat Taj in our set pretty cleanly at Pound 3.

Pikachu on the other hand is very threatening to Zelda. Pikachu has excellent mobility, DD included, and can weave in and out of Zelda's kick range pretty easily where even some top tiers can't. Pikachu is threatening to Zelda without his upsmash, so that's just more of a bonus.

For Zelda vs ICs, I've more or less lived with Chu for the past 4 years and I think I've only ever lost like 2 sets to his ICs out of countless sets. I usually lose to his Pikachu though, like 60-40 him. He's been pretty rusty for the past year though, and I guess I have been too.

Up until I played Mango I'd tied or beaten just about every major falco player ever (chops, shiz, forward, dope, and outside of brackets/MM PC zanguzen jinx and mofo). I thought the match was even for a long time until one day I realized I was ******** because falco is ****ing amazing and shouldn't outright lose to any character ever.

I don't know much about jigglypuff since I never got to play hungrybox, king, darc, etc out of mostly coincidence I think. When I played mango and lost to his falco on fountain, I CP'd to DL 64 and he went puff and I actually won that match super narrowly. then he CPed falco @ PS and 2 stocked me. That's about the end of my jigglypuff experience, lol.

For Samus, I used to get ***** by DA Wes at almost every tournament just playing him for fun, and it made me a much better player because I was still fairly bad early into the game. When I played hugs I just 2-0'd him. No other good samus players exist really.

I used to think Zelda vs Marth was horrible just because I was bad vs Marth. I played m2k a ****ing ton and he always beat my zelda either 1 stock or 2 stock. I actually did better against his fox and Sheik than I did against his marth. I also played azen's marth in 3 sets, and won all 3 sets 2-1. Every match I won, I took somewhere around 600%-700%.

I really hate fighting luigi with zelda. his shield camping is actually more annoying that my kick spamming.

Umbreon said:

I really hate fighting luigi with zelda. his shield camping is actually more annoying that my kick spamming.

Click to expand...

Me too >.> also his wavedash in spot dodge is really grossly fast. My friend once wavedashed in and I did a retreating kick to keep him away, and he spot dodged while sliding and up+B'd me right after my kick lol.


when it comes to falcos I've only played against Shizwiz, and Rice, and one time colbol's falco. Almost all of them were close matches except this one match against shiz on poke'mon stadium where he JV3 stocked me.

But my friend mains falco, and Ballistics in Tallahassee plays falco. So I get A CRAP ton of Falco experience. Rice lives only like 1 hour away from me.

But your opinion on Pikachu Mow is the reason I think Pichu is not that bad against Zelda. his F-smash will shield poke you if you're not careful. He's small and hard to sweet spot kick. He can l-cancel into crouch to avoid a kick out of shield (pretty sure), then Punish. And it's not too hard for him to combo into a upsmash, and possibly down+B if that doesn't get you. However, It takes only like 3 kicks to kill pichu. but it's really hard to land those >.>; cuz of his speed, his small size, you can't really shield poke him, he combo's you pretty well(granted a 10 hit combo does like 30% dmg). Pretty confident though Pichu has a way better chance than say like Kirby lol.

I have like absolutely zero Ness experience. I've never picked him, and I've only fought him like once. and I was fox then and I didn't like it cuz I had to play really campy to win. and I got zero to deathed so easily. which is why I can't give any opinions.

I also agree with the sentiment, that Zelda is a very rare encounter, and She is one of the best defensive playing characters you can play with her great out of shield options, and her high priority. And sometimes I have felt that victories or close matches against people I was sure I'd lose horribly to, was just because I had the Zelda advantage of my opponent not knowing what to do. Like when I first fought hungrybox or shizwiz. I was pretty sure I was gonna get like 2-3 stocked. I mean I saw videos of hungrybox like 3 stocking Lambchops, and I've seen how sickly technical shiz was. My first encounter, I took a couple matches off hungry box at his house in 1v1's I think we played like 4 matches and I'm pretty sure he only won one match. But this was in the past, like JUST before he started making a huge name for himself. like I won these matches then 1 month later I saw hungry take his first set off M2k. Although shiz served me a cold meal and kicked my anus. they were almost all 1 stocks mid % or what not. 1 good gimp woulda won me a match. or a nice dash attack.

So my problem is, Is Zelda pretty alright character and I'm not as bad as I think?
Or am I just abusing Zelda as a one trick pony to cheese wins off people better than me?

Uuaa is this fox I've seen team with hungry a few times. He 3 stocked my marth, then immediately after I changed to Zelda and won. And I did put A TON of work into Zelda for a while. But at this time I hadn't touched her in like a year. and I was running out of Ideas. I don't fox ditto people who MAIN fox. So I said eff it went zelda and got the match.

i think these numbers are very close to the truth, we Zelda players know that our WIN comes with the enemy Mistake and our ability to read them... so i played a very very good sheik here, and always was a close match, of course i agree with 10:90. so the question is how we can win???

i been thinking, and Zone doesnt stress himself, he have Falco and Marth, Cosmo u have Marth and Sheik, and every person at least mains two characters... in my case... i only have Zelda... my Falco sucks xD, and my sheik its no so bad, but every one knows how to play against high tiers...

the other day a friend of mine told me, the encription below Zeldas trophys, the key to WIN with Zelda its to use BOTH, so in the next torney Sometimes i will use Sheik to edge guard, here we have awesome Dr mario and Luigui, you cant kill them in DL64 until 180% or plus, but i saw him loose to a sheik who edgeguarded needles, he died in 80%!!!!!, so i will use schizoprenia mode xDDD, i think against Marth this would work too, against a very far FOX, we dont have to wait hes Up b, just trow a needle... i think we all for some sort of Zeldas Honor never change to sheik... but this is our dissavantage.

Kicks & Needles...

The best of two Worlds.

We don't change neko because shiek is better all around if you are good with shiek you should just play shiek if you're gonna be Zelda to try and win as a lesser character then you might as well just stay Zelda the only matchup I think switching would actually work is ice climbers perhaps.

EDIT:

why I think Falco is so close to a even match up:
When falco grabs the edge. If you give yourself some ample room. there is almost nothing he can do when he comes over and you bust out a nayru's love. If your distanced enough it will beat his Down-air, or any aerial over the edge. Double lasers over the platform he'll get super ***** by nayru's love, usually leading to his death no matter what % cuz he lost his jump. The only things I can think of for him to be safe is if he baits you into doing it with a fake come over.

like when Colbol hopped off the edge and did a Foward b like he was about to pass me. I tried to down smash his illusion but he tricked me and shortened it to regrab the edge. and then he jumped over with double laser and got ***** by nayru's love lol. But my point is, normally for falco to come oover the edge it's normally pretty easy. But when it comes to Zelda, Zelda makes falco feel like peach where you only option is to roll, or get up attack lol. nah falco can probably waveland into shield or feint waveland back off afer you whiff an attack. But Falco is in mega danger zone when he is on the edge. So even if you miss your edgeguard opportunity you usually are about to get another one anyways.

Power shielding will really mess up his momentum. Don't powershield with the intent to hit him with his own lasers and build damage. Powershield with the intent to make him worry about lasering. So he'll be more careful and has to put more thought into his laser game. like aiming low then jumping over the reflected low laser. You want to knock him off his momentum and then counter attack when he gets hit by his own laser, or atleast get in a good spacing position.

You can't beat falco by just standing there and powershielding all day. chances are you will eventually get hit by a few of them thus giving him a gradual lead, you want to slowly approach him much like chun li vs Sagat. where chun li is forced to inch her way in through focus parrys, and crouching heavy punch under high projectiles.

Once he runs out of room he will either finally approach you, try to go over you. and alot of your out of shield options will beat falco in the face.

So that's why i'm not so sure if falco 50% 50% offense defense means they win. I believe falco just needs to play against Zelda like she's puff and try and hit her with a laser when she's air born and try to land a hit after a whiff. or bait zelda into her defense mechs like nayru's love then punish. So he's playing more like 75% defense( and I don't mean lasers only.) 25% offense.

I believe a very juking/dodging falco is what makes it in falco's favor. Falco's doesn't combo zelda for too long either. his longer combos come mostly from up tilts and aerials not so much shines.

he's alot easier to gimp than fox. and alot easier to get off stage. uptilt trades with down air.

Also Zelda has an all right tech roll, and usually gets enough distance where falco can't down air chase her. not to mention a dash attack around 27%+ or a grab usually means his death on a smaller stage, or high % combo on a decently sized stage.

Oh goody a matchup thread!

Cosmo! said:

10:90 always agreed with this one. Zelda only has 10 cause she can in fact turn into sheik.

25:75

30:70

I like these two as well :D

30:70

Im with ya 100 percent so far

35:65

This is in zeldas favor. like 90/10. its not even fair (its bair too!)

40:60

40:60

40:60

Yeah pretty much

20/80

Zeldas second worst matchup. pikachus a little *******

60:40

jab and dash attack dem pills son! docs fair hurts though :/ and he can combo you like a mother with finishers to boot

70:30

I think zelda can put alot of pressure on mario actually. He can only viably kill her with that broken f smash and upsmash and fireballs are a probably kinda but like...its like a bad marth/fox hybrid with a silly recovery.

60:40

yay the lag princess! kick out of shield...KICK OUT OF SHIELD!

75: 25

GnW has the best fair ever. Zelda has the best fair and bair ever. GnW cant shield. Zelda should just kick a ton and reap the benifits. matchups 50/50 if zelda shows mercy!

60:40

hahaha.....KILL NANA!! *Agrees*

80:20

OMG poooor yoshi. You can throw egges i think and like combo with upair (and kill with it suprisingly O_o). Yoshis cute though so give him some love <3 Id throw a set to a yoshi any day :D

70:30

Pretty much the reverse of marth. Stay above him and you will never die. Oh and kick too.

65:35

I want to say this is zeldas third worst match up but ive thrown enough exagerations about.

It evolves into pikachu which sucks so zelda will never have favor!

NEVER! plus hes cute too so like...yeah a yoshi with an upsmash and a recovery?! OMGFGOMFG

50:50

Boom. Like fighting mario if he has ic's movment. My most experienced matchup. Its fun.

40:60

I havent done this in awhile but im pretty sure Dk has a soft advantage. His bair is RIDICULOUS

55:45

For the sake of love its close but....Zelda punishes harder than link can me thinks.

50:50

The marth fox of low tiers. I think this matchup is really tricky for both players and is very very stage dependent. Very close.

lol:haha

Haha its kirby :D

he sucks dont worry

But dont go near the ledge! :O

80:20

I think on like dreamland its in ness's favor sort of. But ness is a bad zelda.
Dont give the little guy to much control and wreck his face with your absurd range in the air (thats where hes gonna be trust me). If he grabs you slap yourself and give him the stock for being an idiot (ive dont it before so its cool...we all get grabbed even by bad characters <3)

55: 45

This is suprisingly close. Bowser has a very legit shield game against zelda and can edgeguard her very effectivly. But bowsers a fatty and we zeldas love our fattys.

45: 55

Practicly even. Very stage dependent. Taj is really good though and m2 can camp zelda pretty hard if she doesnt put on the right pressure. You need to read m2 really well in this matchup. Taj is really good. umm and m2s just a cool dude in general so why not give him a slight advantage eh?

Click to expand...

Lol those are some noble low tier pwnage claims lake lol also I think y.link is harder than that lol

Sheik 10-90
Doc 50-50
Fox 25-75
Falcon 30-70
Marth 30-70
Falco 35-65
Peach 40-60
Ganon 40-60
Roy 70-30
Pichu 65-35
Mewtwo 45-55

Look good?

t3h Icy said:

Sheik 10-90
Doc 50-50
Fox 25-75
Falcon 30-70
Marth 30-70
Falco 35-65
Peach 40-60
Ganon 40-60
Roy 70-30
Pichu 65-35
Mewtwo 45-55

Look good?

Click to expand...

I agree with that minus the falco I'm gonna hold true to 45:55

I just noticed this thread. Here's my 2 cents.

10:90
The only way you can win this matchup is if your opponent sucks or their controller malfunctions and they SD a few times

15:85
Really hard matchup. Fox can laser camp you until you approach and then overwhelm you with speed and all that other **** fox has going for him

30:70
Falcon can dash dance circles around zelda. She has a few options but it's still really difficult

35:65
Marth's faster than zelda and has good range, which makes this matchup pretty hard

35:65
A technical falco can really overwhelm zelda, but she still has some hope because she can kill him at pretty low percentages with random kicks

50:50
I feel like zelda's range advantage keeps this matchup even

40:60
Bair and fair keep make it hard for puff to approach, but when she does hit you it can be bad. Resting zelda's recovery onto the stage or simplying going all out WoP are pretty annoying

40:60
If zelda gets offstage, recovering anywhere but to the ledge is gonna result in a fair to the face from ganon and you're gonna get sent offstage again. Dsmash and fair/bair **** him when he's recovering though

???
Not enough experience in this matchup but i know it's pikachu's favor

40:60
Doc can keep zelda at a distance with pills and space her approaches pretty well. Norcal's got quite a few good Doc players for some reason...

???
I'd assume it's similar to Doc but i don't really know for sure lol. I played against Scorp in teams once but that's really the only time I've actually played a mario in seriouslies at all

50:50
I've never beaten any of the good samus players I've played against in tournament but it's always been pretty close and I don't see how samus would have any kind of advantage against zelda really. I'm calling it even for now

60:40
I don't feel like G&W can deal with the kick very well and in my experience it just feels like zelda has the advantage

60:40
One my most experienced matchups. Nana can die really easily from kicks and once she's out of the picture it's not that bad. ICs can get zelda offstage a few hits though and can punish hard during your recovery which keeps the matchup fairly even.

60:40
Playing against a really technical yoshi is pretty crazy, but kicks destroy him pretty badly

???
No idea, but zelda probably has a pretty good advantage

70:30
Small target, but pichu just sucks. Nuff said

40:60
Luigi's wavedashing ability makes this matchup tough (at least for me). Hit and run tactics put this MU in luigi's favor IMO

40:60
Reverse giant punch is so mindgamey and good... ah but anyway, DKs bairs have crazy range and while he can't juggle you with uairs all day he can actually outrange zelda which sucks

55:45
Hard to say exactly because it's really close. I think that zelda has the upper hand by just a bit though

45:55
Harder than link but still close. He can spam like crazy which makes it hard to do much but he can't kill which keeps it pretty even

65:35
Don't approach him at the ledge-> bair/fair him when he approaches-> win

???
Maybe in zelda's favor?

???
Probably in zelda's favor but still close

???
I've only played one good Mewtwo but it seemed like a pretty even MU

i almost beat the lake in a $1 mm with bowser once

cosmo i'll play you with dk next time i see you, ive always felt like its difficult for dk but like everybody else disagrees with me

The only DK I play against is Mexican, but he's really good and I play him pretty often. Idk, the matchup seems kinda hard to me (for zelda I mean)

ive played against some zeldas and not had trouble, and other zeldas and got beat pretty bad

but the last time i did it was like 2-3 years ago either way

jiano and bigD have beast DKS

<3 smashtastrophe 2

yeah i remember third match last stock vs vudujin in that low tier tournament he gets a misfire out of nowhere and kills me

disappointing

1. luigi has a strategy that beats all of low tier. it's so effective that the MBR usually recommends him banned from low tier tournaments. I think luigi beats zelda pretty solidly as is.

2. pikachu or falcon for zelda is no contest. pikachu is fast and has combos. falcon is FAST and has COMBOS. he also KOs from a grab and has an amazing dashdance and amazing weight and therefore amazing survival DI. falcon is way substantially worse for zelda than pikachu is.

3. zelda ****s bowser. outright. same @ roy. both matches are awful.

4. anything sheik can do to zelda, fox can do better except i think edge guarding. grab combos, kills, etc. fox is definitely worse.

**** i'm tired.

whats your luigi strat?

I don't agree that Fox is a worse match up than Sheik, just because Fox is easier to kill. I played NJsFinest's DK a while back, and the match up seemed pretty tough. I think DK has a slight advantage. I also think Zelda has an advantage against Samus.

does fox have grab combos on zelda? i didnt think uthrow uair worked, is there another grab combo that matters?

Is up throw B-air guaranteed?

i think if you DI fox's uthrow forward, he cannot combo with any move from it

upthrow upair is guaranteed iirc at any point until it KOs except on DL64?

also frankly i don't think throw combos matter when lasers exist. fox can move and laser faster than zelda can move. do you guys seriously not understand how stupid it is to be able to choose when to attack 100% of the time?

yeah i understand that, youre the one that brought up "grab combos" and ive never seen cosmo get uthrow uaired in like the 100 times ive seen foxes try to do it vs him so i didnt think it worked

are you really keeping your ultimate luigi strat a secret out of fear of ruining low tier tournaments?

My shield broke the other day

cause fox was dash dancing

and i was like "Thats dumb"

then i fought this shiek

and he stood there

the whole match

and i got 3 stocked

>.>

<.<

anyhoot

upthrow upair is dumb at mid to higher percents

unless you want to eat a kick!

but up throw to nothing is like broken

so i maing mario and ive picked up zelda cuz shes fun. my friend plays doc, what can u do against him? u cant really combo out of grabs can u? and how can u grab w/ such a crappy 1?

use neutral b a lot? i have no idea. any tips would be great.

if he down smashs your shield

you can kick him in the face

his shffl game can like combo you...TO DEATH

so di the upairs or take em

just dont get fair'd ya dig

pills suck

if he approaches with a pill expect and aerial

or worse yet...

a GRAB!

if he down throws at mid to high percents

treat it like falcon

mix up your DI

or dont DI and just give him some love

pressure with f smash and down smashes

oh and kicks too

you know the drill

light shield his pills when he camps or recovers

and dont blow your wad to early and your golden

alright thanks.