Underload
Lazy
Discuss the Toon Link matchup in here.
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It's dumb.
Toon Link has everything he needs to not approach Snake, and to avoid every grenade tactic that you're going to do. The only thing that Toon Link is lacking is that he has to approach to kill Snake. In this match up, it is largely dictated by who scores the first kill. If Toon Link is having to approach Snake to make a come back because he's behind, then Snake is capable of scoring a large amount damage. The converse is true, when you consider that Toon Link is going to spend the bulk of his time retreating in the air away from Snake when he has the lead, or if percents are even. Snake cannot kill Toon Link safely in the air, and will take large sums of damage to finally kill Toon Link. As long as Toon Link has a bomb in hand in the Air, Snake can't kill him with an aerial due to the Toon Link player just throwing the bomb down at Snake, or invinc-bombing.
Cooked grenades are nice, but Toon Link is able to disrupt Snake's camping game to prevent you from getting a solid handle on your grenade game. Snake cannot camp Toon Link. At low percents, Toon Link is able to combo Snake rather well, but Snake is able to dish out damage just as quickly.
I think it's 50-50, but I could be biased because I've played exceptionally gifted Toon Link players such as Hyro and Jerm.
I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate this MU, I'd rather play Lucario in this MU lol.
You look at any Jash/Jerm v. Fatal/Bizkit/etc., and you get the gist.
He's super jumpy, so you obv. never get satisfactory damage from ftilt (ftilt1 always just knocks them away).
DACUS is pretty ineffective as a means of punishment from areas long distances, since the place is littered w/ projectiles, and it also becomes hard to retreat with this. Nair is also iffy, TL tends to get damage on all of these options. I always see good snakes use this in the MU only to get zair'd/hit by a projectile then stringed a bit. TL can pull the rug underneath a lot of snake's attempts to hit him w/ an aerial in general lol.
I tend to like to use more vertically oriented grenade/mortar placings. DJ -> neutral/upward grenade throw's kinda useful in this MU to mix up a bit, as long as you obv. don't get yourself juggled in attempting to do so.
I've experimented w/ proning in this MU, it's not as good as I though it'd be. Decent for boomerang, bad against bombs and sometimes arrows.
Something I like about this MU is actually the occasional ability to harness TL's bombs. They are surprisingly accessible, since most TL's almost never risk doing bomb recatch shenanigans near your shield lol, and they're a pretty decent tool some of the time, pretty much a grenade that gives up damage/occasional stay pressure abilities for instant detonation on landing (most of the time anyways). Possibly throwing relatively uncooked grenades -> throwing a bomb somewhere among them -> profit? idk, I think there's some potential if you do happen to get his bombs after shielding them/insta-throwing them (not as common obv. as the former option though). Doesn't happen often if at all, but I think this projectile could really ease some damage racking issues w/ traditional grenade camping, especially on smaller/more neutral-ish stages.
if Snake does get a grab though, Snake is going to go to town on that dthrow tech chase. Even throwing him offstage to limit his options and set up a strong projectile field on the edge is a good idea.
I don't have a really good grasp of the MU, played it a lot but it's honestly pretty frustrating to learn when you can quasi-camp TL and when you just have to go after him (aside from stock leads of course lol).
55-45/50-50, pretty evenish
55/45 snake, maybe 5/5
tink is really good at keeping snake outside and its hard to camp him or get nades to work effectively, you have to approach and tink has alot of safe tricks/options to keep you away and avoid being hit, plus he has a whole bunch of dumb strings/setups that can lead to alot of damage if you aren't careful
it honestly just comes down to being able to powershield and avoid his **** well while doing your best to get in a few hits, I use alot of grabs/dthrow in this mu because its sorta hard to tilt tink,jab can also work pretty well too. its a really momentum based matchup that can switch heavily to whoever is in the lead
I would like to think that I know fairly well since I play with Hyro almost every week, and let's not forget that Lee Martin has a Toon Link that I play against as well. It's an even match up if the Toon Link player is smart and efficient. He should only be getting hit by F-Tilt 1 due to always being in the air, and the only time that he should be approaching is when he has to kill because he is losing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PIW-_lzhGQ
Fatal vs Jash. That's the best example of the Toon Link match up for Snake.
A good Toon link shouldn't be getting grabbed by Snake. If the Toon Link player is anywhere within the close range capabilities of Snake, then he's made a gross misjudgment of how to play Toon Link. The only time that TL should be moving forwards is when he has landed a Zair, or if he has his boomerang returning from behind Snake. The match up is going to feel in your favor when you're in the lead, but the moment you get down a stock to Toon Link it'll be an uphill battle, but the same is true for Toon Link. As long as he is forced to approach Snake due to a stock lead during a killable percent, Snake is able to have his way with Toon Link. Beyond that, due to projectiles, Toon Links kill moves are going to be fresh at all the times they are necessary.
As a character, Toon Link is one of the best at maintaining constant hitboxes on the field, and has a plethora of mix ups and mind games that can be utilized against Snake or any character. As I stated before, I've only played good Toon Link players over the years, from Santi to Hyro to Jerm to Lee so I don't really have the perspective of fighting against an average Toon Link.
One of my most hated matchups. Jash is really the only top TL I've played recently. If you count Remix, Melito, Izumi, and Copacetic, them too I guess. Jash is just a really good player, so I dunno how accurate it'd be to go by him for the matchup, but Fatal and I agreed that he makes the matchup feel impossible combined with our slight lack of knowledge in this matchup at top levels.
TL can camp with Snake, and sort of outcamp him if you aren't really careful about timing nades so that the bombs don't blow the nades up on you. Powershielding can mess up TL a lot, but it's hard to powershield EVERYTHING. Zair is probably the most annoying thing in the matchup, especially retreating Zairs. Get out of juggles fast, they hurt and do lots of damage at low %'s. At high %'s, TL probably gunna go for the Usmash KO if you air dodge land a lot. Watch out for Uair, it kills pretty early and is tricky to dodge, plus pretty sure none of our aerials will go through it. That's how I remember Jash killing me most of the time, just hitting me up and snagging me with a Uair. If you avoid Uair and Usmash, you can probably live until 180% quite easily IMO.
Some little tricks, dthrow kinda ***** TL. Almost as easy to tech chase as ROB IMO. Watch out for tricky get up to utilt attempts. You can avoid the second hit of TLs Fsmash sometimes depending on how you DI it or how fast you react, etc. Try to be careful about nade camping. Something Fatal and I thought of was less nades so TL's bombs don't blow them up on you (this happened to both of us a lot). Not sure how viable this is though.
Probably should ban BF? I guess it's players taste on this one, but gay TLs will camp the platforms of BF which can be pretty annoying. They also seem to like CPing Delfino. Matchup is probably 55-45 Snake. I don't think it's 60:40 if the TL plays gay as possible.
No I'm just saying that in previous posts there's like "oh grab is going to be easy", so I wanted to clarify that TL can play a very frustrating keep away game that is likely to only land you a grab by either:
-him making a mistake
-reading him near the ledge or something similar
