King DeDeDe Matchup Export~

Current Ratio:
What to look out for:
How they will KO you:
Best/Worst spacing zone:
Campy or Aggressive?:
Tricksies:
Wolf’s most powerful tool:
Chaingrabs/Tilt Locks?: Smallstep downthrow CG, ledge infinite as well. Whoo...
What to do when offstage:
Stages
- Strike:
- Ban:
- Pick:

With DeDeDe, the obvious rule of "don't get grabbed" has to be applied, which is often easier said than done. Luckily, Wolf's rising fair makes things easier. It is safe on D3's shield because you can retreat with it. Being the big guy he is, he's a perfect target in the air, and Bair is golden. Wolf's laser is good, but Waddle Dee's and Do's can get in the way of things. Kill them if you can, but don't let D3 get close to you. This battle is all about keeping room between you and that penguin. Laser, back air, and retreating forward air(probably the most important) are key. Remember that. Fight him in the air, and if he tries to get you with an up-air, shine.

When recovering, always go for the ledge. D3's like to wait just before the edge of the stage to grab you in recovery lag, which could put you at risk of the ledge infinite, so using Wolf's ledge get-up attack isn't the best idea. Jump and fair instead, or if you're feeling gutsy and he's at kill percent, nair(or shine) into a down smash.

As for stages, don't go anywhere flat unless you want to cry. Go somewhere with platforms and uneven ground. Because of D3's height, platform camping with dair is great due to its long hitbox.

Strike: FD and Smashville.
Ban: FD
Pick: Kain likes Lylat for characters with a chaingrab, but since a lot of Wolf's don't like that stage, Brinstar would probably be a better choice. Norfair is also awesome, but then again, I just love that stage with Wolf in general.

Ratio: 40-60 for Wolf at the worst, but it seems to be getting easier. It may feel more like 45-55 for those more experienced in the MU.

I agree with Auspher. Just be patient, run away (I find that Wolf's great airspeed helps with this), and don't get grabbed. Like he said, uneven stages are great. The only thing I would like to argue is DDD's bair. That is the only move that can challenge us in the air. It has a good hitbox, high priority and long lasting hitbox. Also watch out for the inhale, it has super armor, and puts us in a fairly poor position IMO (above him). It sucks (and blows lol).

righty, dedede
Let there be no doubt about an important aspect of d3's game
He has no approach.(or is that unkind, let's say he has shield approach)
This means that a wolf with proper spacing is gonna make life pretty annoying for him, as he gets barraged with properly spaced bairs and fairs whenever he gets close
what makes this MU hard for wolf, is consistency. The idea is that if wolf misspaces only once on d3's shield, he's in for an unfair amount of punishment due to technical faaaailure
Italics, because that's d3's way of damage racking.
Projectiles on both sides of this MU are pretty bad. Waddles miss, lasers hits waddles. Definitely not a tool for damageracking on either side (**** you, falco!!)

Aerial situations then.
Shine does not beat his uair. Have u seen the range on that attack? Better just try to outspace it(and any other form of juggling) horizontally(our airspeed has his outmatched). With good usage of our airspeed and airdodge, juggling can be avoided a good bunch of the time.

When juggling d3, the first thing to keep in mind is that his dair pretty much outspaces anything else(just like his uair). So straightforward going for it is a nono. Better wait for him to commit to an action(a likely choice is dair, especially if you make it appear favorable to him by being directly below him) and then punish, with either an uair or bair/fair(whichever side of you is facing him)(this, btw, is common juggling in brawl, should you not know). When juggling, keep in mind that dedede is a fastfaller AND has the fastest fastfall in the game(and coincidentally, us wofles have the slowest(aka worst) fastfall). Something to expect from a dedede thats lowish to the ground(e.g top battlefield platform height) is a ff airdodge to the ground(to spotdodge/roll/utilt most commonly)

Recovery, I guess?
I can't really say that there's anything MU specific regarding this aspect. At mid to high %, the only thing to be afraid of is softspot bairs, as any other move will have enough knockback allowing you to DI up. At low %...I wanna just say: dont be offstage, but as i said earlier, the CG is just unfair . At all times, make wise usage of your second jump, and woe is you if you get hit out of immediate initial startup
Regarding specific ways to recover, recovering high-ish with a high flashcancel(as in the high and low one, is there any official name for these two?) leaves you with enough speed to make it unpunishable for d3 unless he predicts it. Hard to be consistent with, and extremely flashy, so make sure you are from Europe before attempting this. And as always, if he's hanging on the ledge, just semi scar(hold control stick down during side b) for a safe recovery on stage(saves you the ledgegrab landingpenalty as well!) This might actually be punishable by ledgedrop bairing on d3's part, but in all honesty expect this to work. If he's standing right by the edge, just side b to the ledge(and again, if he then quickly grabs it, semi scar)

Gimping dedede is certainly possible. The idea is to hit him. Until he's out of jumps and has to up b. At which point you hit him again, making him have to up b again. Repeat as much as your awesomeness level allows you to. When doing this keep in mind dedede's tricks such as high Up B's(punish from the sides, please. uair works but its harder and less rewarding), mid recovery's to upb canceling either onstage or to ledge(+rep to you if you read his cancel to ledge and then edgehog him), and extremely low up b's(this one's really fun on stages like Yoshi's, it auto cancels on the slope for instant OUGHHH(still punishable though by just shielding))

Ratio:
Low to medium skilled players: 3-7
High level: at worst 4-6
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this may be my longest post evar :O
ah well, if on anything why not on the matchup between my two mains.

Hmm, here are a couple things i found to be very useful in this mu:

-stay positioned so that if d3 gets a grab its across less than half the stage. blaster a lot but not if he can shield it and grab you. once d3 power shields a blaster change the way you're blastering cuz he's got the timing down for that blaster
-while being chain grabbed by d3, dont just do nothing. struggle out, he shouldnt be able to pummel you before 100%-ish. while struggling buffer an fsmash, shine, side step, roll, anything that will get you out if he messes up. however mix it up between what it is you buffer or else they'll see what you did and then punish it next time purposefully messing up to get a longer cg or an fsmash or somethin.
-if d3 chain grabs you to the edge at under 60% and then grab releases, recover as quick as possible with side b. don't mess around with up b cuz you can get gimped.
-if d3 does manage to hit you while you are recovering make sure you are SDI'ing up (both auto-SDI and smash-SDI) as well as DI'ing up. this increases your chances of survival especially at low %'s. make sure you saved your dj or you're dead.
-once you're over 100% and you get cg'd -> gr mix up your recovery between up b's and side b's and respond to what d3 does. its like rock paper scissors but it REALLY sucks if you lose (you dead).
-don't approach ever if you have the lead. platforms are your buddies and dair can hit d3 through them.
-pressure d3 with ungrabbable moves. don't bair right in front of his shield or fsmash or somethin bad.
-grabbing d3 is amazing because you grabbing him means he cant grab you. also its an easy way to force him off stage which is when you get tons of %.
-when off stage use blaster, shine, dsmash, jab, ftilt, dtilt, grabs, and footstools to edge guard (notice you're on stage most the time). also if you time an edge hog when d3 does his last jump, he is forced to up b which is what you want to accomplish.
-when d3 up b's grab him out of it and pummel (at the edge), bair him off stage (in the air), or dsmash/fsmash (only tipper fsmash so like when you cant get to him otherwise) him when he lands. you can shield his up b like the one where he lands with a hitbox and punish it with dsmash pretty easily. if that is giving you trouble just shad into him and then punish. if dsmash is stale then throw him or usmash for the %.
-if you're on the edge when he up b's, dont get off of it til you know where he will land and then you can maybe even punish with your side b. ledge drop dj shad onto the stage to be able to punish with other moves. d3 should die somewhere along this edge guarding process.

Laem said:

Hard to be consistent with, and extremely flashy, so make sure you are from Europe before attempting this.

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I ****in' lol'd. I agree, though. This match up is pretty basic because D3 himself is pretty basic. He's got a specific tool that we are fighting to avoid (Chaingrabs).

Our match up with him isn't really any different than any other character who has a ****ty match up against D3. Just try to outspace him, stay off the ground, use platforms to avoid CGs don't get caught offstage by his bair.

its not that hard to be consistent with flash canceling though yes it helps a lot in this mu. its just as hard to be consistent with falco's side b which is pretty easy.

The main problem is that the smallstep and ledge infinite to dtilt means that on a stage like FD, unless you're so close to the ledge that he can't ledge infinite you, it's practically a 0-death. As T said, consistency... Wolf can definitely fight D3 with juggling and amazing **** offstage, but one grab can be game-changing. Stage-wise, this leads me to think that places like Norfair and Japes where you can run away the whole match, as well as stages that have transformations that break CGs are good choices. Also, stages that tilt (ex. Lylat) definitely affect the CG, but I haven't looked into it much :x Stages with sloped ledges also help for edgeguarding. Clearly, ban FD lol.

Recovering... am I the only one that likes to DJ away and then wait for a sideB if the D3 follows me offstage? D3 really can't move for crap in the air unless he's falling down, meaning there's no way he'll catch up to you, his only chance is to intercept. Once you see where the D3 is headed, you can recover and at WORST eat a bair if they react and FF bair you, but the thing is this means that they will be put in a bad position as well. Wolf can get to the ledge faster than D3 in most cases, basically turning the tide against D3.

On stages like Norfair and Japes I actually think Wolf might have the advantage simply because of D3's poor mobility and inability to approach, but besides that it's probably around 60:40 D3's favor (assuming you ban FD lol). Definitely sucks hardcore at lower levels though In the end it's similar to ICs, just don't get grabbed and you can win. And Wolf can feasibly avoid the grab, the only issue is that we're all human, and even one mistake can cost us big-time :x

Ishieymoro said:

The main problem is that the smallstep and ledge infinite to dtilt means that on a stage like FD, unless you're so close to the ledge that he can't ledge infinite you, it's practically a 0-death. As T said, consistency... Wolf can definitely fight D3 with juggling and amazing **** offstage, but one grab can be game-changing. Stage-wise, this leads me to think that places like Norfair and Japes where you can run away the whole match, as well as stages that have transformations that break CGs are good choices. Also, stages that tilt (ex. Lylat) definitely affect the CG, but I haven't looked into it much :x Stages with sloped ledges also help for edgeguarding. Clearly, ban FD lol.

Recovering... am I the only one that likes to DJ away and then wait for a sideB if the D3 follows me offstage? D3 really can't move for crap in the air unless he's falling down, meaning there's no way he'll catch up to you, his only chance is to intercept. Once you see where the D3 is headed, you can recover and at WORST eat a bair if they react and FF bair you, but the thing is this means that they will be put in a bad position as well. Wolf can get to the ledge faster than D3 in most cases, basically turning the tide against D3.

On stages like Norfair and Japes I actually think Wolf might have the advantage simply because of D3's poor mobility and inability to approach, but besides that it's probably around 60:40 D3's favor (assuming you ban FD lol). Definitely sucks hardcore at lower levels though In the end it's similar to ICs, just don't get grabbed and you can win. And Wolf can feasibly avoid the grab, the only issue is that we're all human, and even one mistake can cost us big-time :x

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ish, the infinite doesnt work at low percents. d3 has to pummel you in order to do the infinite. hence exactly why choice said to mash out. In reality, d3's infinite is NOT bad at all since he can only do it at high percents (where dthrow->dtilt would probably result in a death anyways).

the smallstep is extremely hard to pull off on wolf since his margin of error is pretty much 0. it's probably in the d3's best interest to just do the regular chaingrab anyways

theres actually like a really small area where the ledge infinite is a true infinite without needing a pummel. however the likely hood of d3 infiniting you there is highly unlikely because of how difficult it is to set up. if you know where it is, its pretty easy to avoid i think.

I never knew the smallstep and ledge infinite were so precise :o but difficulty of a technique doesn't make it less of an issue in the matchup :/

Also, for hitting D3 with dairs through platforms, he can utilt which has invincibility so... idk, it's worked decently enough for me in the past but a D3 that's encountered it before can cause some difficulty if you're aiming for dair assaults through platforms.

Where are the D3 mains ;_;

yes, utilt does beat out dair so you shouldnt do it when he's capable of countering it with utilt.

the true infinite is difficult to the point where it is not an issue in the mu. smallstep is there irregardless.

if they read rising bair and ps it and then dash grab oos do you still get grabbed?
what if you ff and buffer a spotdodge or a shine?
if they read fair?

they cant grab rising bair if its a full hop and since d3 is so tall and trying to be close the rising full hop bair is pretty easy to accomplish. even if its just a short hop and you retreat the entire way it cant be grabbed.

Def watch out for pshielding in this MU. Actually a couple of MUs ive seen vs Wolf i've heard its mainly all about pshielding.

Auto Canceled fairs and spaced bairs are good in this mu for wolf as is rising shine.

@Choice, a DDD should start to pummel to refresh at around 50-60%. For noobs a DDD can safely pummel at around 30% during the CG n they'll never break out.

I've practiced the infinite on plenty of characters so heres my 411, 50% is when i usually have an easier time keeping them in the grab. Anything below that and they just break out pretty easily.

Keep your reads precise in this match, because if you do get punished with a grab you just wont win in this MU. Wait for DDD to make mistakes, an punish with a safe option per that situation. Mix up your blastering, because i'll tell you right now if you start blastering without a plan i will pshield the laser and grab you out of the blaster delay.

For recovering, save your second jump and side b back as fast as you can. If you keep getting knocked out of side b keep trying. Dont ever waste your second jump. Eventually DDD will run out of jumps and have to go back to the stage, if by that point you can still make it back by then second jump then upb or side b back to the ledge. I dont know of any other methods of recovering against DDD that'd be more effective than that. However despite what other people say i will highly stress this one thing save your second jump and learn how to deal with DDDs powershielding.

Just incase those of you reading dont understand the physics behind pshield[and you should] when a DDD powershields. He 1. does not receive any shield stun, he doesnt slide or move anywhere he stays in that spot. and when no.1 happens he can do 2. grab immediately out of that shielding scenario and 90% of the time HE WILL GET THE GRAB!! Thats a big no no for wolf.

For stages? Dont go to delfino, final d, anything with walls or has no platforms. I believe wolf would do well at Yoshi's Brawl and Battlefield. If your comfortable with the MU on another stage then sure. Most DDDs like smashville so just remember to think carefully about your stages.

Hell with wolfs air speed, i bet you'd guys would love to take DDD to norfair or brinstar.

Dark 3nergy said:

@Choice, a DDD should start to pummel to refresh at around 50-60%. For noobs a DDD can safely pummel at around 30% during the CG n they'll never break out.

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You can break out right after the first pummel up to 100%.

delfino's like d3's best stage. don't go there.

yoshi's, sv, bf is pretty much it. lylat works too but this is one of those match ups where you dont want to be messing around with those lylat edges i think. though we do get super taunt.

i dont think the space animals do that well at lylat if alone for the gay tilting. I have missed sweet spotting the ledge on all the space animals from the tilting alone >.>

tilting doesnt really phase the CG either imo


counter pick stages i still think wolf would do well at norfair/brinstar

DONT GO TO RAINBOW HOLY CHRIST THATS A NO NO

Japes? Idk its not a good map for DDD either, idk how it'd go for wolf.

Castle siege? eh the second transformation blocks your projectile, theres walk offs, first transformation is OK...third is like final d with a MUCH gayer lip so **** that stage in this MU.

PS1, not alot of platforming to start off. Theres walls to worry about in the water[windmill], fire, rock.
PS2, only wall i know of is grounds. Ice theres alot of sliding involved, wind well...yea good for air camping. Electic prolly the best one in the mu.

Frigate is mean to your recovery first transformation on the right side. Xfermation 2 whoever camps the center wins pretty much. Grounded Slants dont help wolf when DDD starts to CG. Altho the platforms off the sides are a nice plus...dont rely on them.

Pictochat...uh...psh its like final d with 2 slants, many different ways walls can set up from the xfermations

green greens, why would you go here? just dont

halberd, walk offs first 13 seconds, walls show up when the stage begins to transform, theres also a pixel small wall that ddd can use to wall infinite on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UEzXOOoxto#t=0m36s

the tilting doesnt do anything for the cg. same thing.

the reason why lylat typically is good i think is cuz of the platform lay out. gives you so many places to side b cancel onto, but since d3 will probably be grab releasing you at the edge you cant get high enough to aim for anything besides on stage below the platforms and edge.

yea i agree with the platforming, tilting + CG the DDD can always dash grab if the tilting isnt favoring him

Dark 3nergy said:

Hell with wolfs air speed, i bet you'd guys would love to take DDD to norfair or brinstar.

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I would LOVE to take D3 to Norfair!

<3

Poop, I could've sworn slants changed something :<

PS2 might be really good for Wolf in this matchup actually, I really like the height of the platforms on the neutral (makes it extra safe, and you can still FH fair onto them :3) and none of the transformations are bad vs D3 if you don't do something stupid like chill near a wall. D3 has dthrow > dsmash guaranteed on the ice transformation though :x Thanks for the stage input Dark 3nergy Japes is generally really good for Wolf, and seeing how many of D3's kill moves are vertical + the water allows a recovery mixup of sorts, I'd definitely go here against D3 if it's legal.

Screw the EC and its non-liberal stage lists :<

ps2 should be legal at every tournament. i dont get why people disagree. japes would be good too. i miss japes so bad.

i do think japes would be good for wolf. I just dont know whether or not his recovery would help or break him if hes in the water...

But yea DDD cant CG you much on japes no1, no2,...high ceiling. You wont die from utilt here. However a good DDD can always keep his fthrow/bthrow fresh enough to kill you off the sides. N he will most likely be trying to kill you with either that or bair/fair. You cannot rule out a fresh dtilt killing you either.

Wolf would have an easier time killing DDD here off the sides if he used dsmash, bair or any move he has that sends the opponent far horizontally. Spiking DDD into the water for a KO might work...or setting up into the situational klap trap works fine too.


PS2, the ice is worry some for the follow up DDD gets out of the Dthrow, the wall at the ground xfermation is worry some. But other than lesser walls, and more physics changes thats really what PS2 is all about. Physics changes. PS1 is more toned down...but with more walls obviously.

wolf gets dthrow into the water and can circle camp the right platform mad easy on japes.

choice_ said:

wolf gets dthrow into the water and can circle camp the right platform mad easy on japes.

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dthrow -> claptrap combo is ****

another thing ive been working on, are follow ups out of the dthrow, to those DDD can CG. If he spaces the dthrow so that the opponent slides, then falls off the stage, DDD might be able to follow up with a buffered usmash

something to keep in mind

sounds evil.

has to be well spaced tho, like i said the opponent must be falling off the ledge out of the Dthrow slide

and before anyone asks yes it works on marth/pit/diddy kong/TL/peach -- these 5 have the longest slides so if it works on long slides it'll def be doable on anyone else

does NOT work with ppl that cannot be CG'ed tho, tested it on Falco/Pika. I do have a couple more ideas for non-CGs tho out of Dthrow that imma be working on anyway

if marth has penalty this should work. so does dash attack.

dash attacks hit box...im sure doesnt work. If a player gets dthrown and dash attacked toward the ledge i can see this happening; Top players will pshield and punish. Good players will hold shield and be pushed onto/ auto grab the ledge. Bad players will get hit by it.

Usmashes hitbox i think, comes out faster, the attacks hit box starts infront of DDD and has the horizontal coverage out of a slide which is what DDD has to do in order to hit them as they fall off the ledge. Dash attack has too much start up and not enough horizontal momentum forward in order to make DA a viable option in this situation. I have tried DA out of dthrow towards the ledge dont worry and it's been easily pshielded/avoided. Usmash tho not so much so.

i mean if marth has landing penalty from his up b. dthrow -> dash attack is inescapable whenever that happens. same is true for wolf i believe. wait i think marth might be the one fsmash works on i forget.

Can't D3 fsmash us if we have landing penalty as well? :x

And PS2 >>> PS1 for this matchup. Ledges are a lot better, fewer walls that are easier to avoid, transformations that make it easier to avoid grabs, etc. Such a good stage :3

I actually think Delfino is kinda good for Wolf in this matchup... thoughts?

Ishieymoro said:

I actually think Delfino is kinda good for Wolf in this matchup... thoughts?

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copy/pasted from the video thread:

Choice vs Michael Hey (D3): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_BES0Y-TYQ

Seems okay as long as you avoid walls/walk offs...

Ishieymoro said:

Can't D3 fsmash us if we have landing penalty as well? :x

And PS2 >>> PS1 for this matchup. Ledges are a lot better, fewer walls that are easier to avoid, transformations that make it easier to avoid grabs, etc. Such a good stage :3

I actually think Delfino is kinda good for Wolf in this matchup... thoughts?

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in areas without walk offs and walls yea. Those areas with sand/water? the 3 pillars that drop off into water? Those parts are pretty annoying for DDD.

However you have to seriously consider a few things

1. How long does these last?
2. How long does those intermittent stages last?[the xfermation where the dolphin gate shows up on the floor]
3. How many walk offs/ walls are there to worry about? I can tell you shine gate has 2, the hotel has 2 and 1 walk off screen left NO GRABBABLE ledge on the right side, theres a final D type area infront of the hotel water on both sides, the place with umbrellas has 1 walk off and 2 walls, the transformation with the little spot of water has 1 walk off screen right and 2 walls. The dolphin statue has 2 inclines coming down to it and walk offs on both screens.

Delphino for wolf is great in terms of that most of these transformations have no blast zone under neith them. So recovering should never be an issue, however you'll have to find ways to not get pressured into walls/walk off areas--thats the trade off imo and thats where DDDs Bair is gonna make you mad.

choice_ said:

i mean if marth has landing penalty from his up b. dthrow -> dash attack is inescapable whenever that happens. same is true for wolf i believe. wait i think marth might be the one fsmash works on i forget.

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i've yet to pull that off...i have however done this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzOVwmUL4UQ#t=3m30s

I dont think delfino is that bad honestly, but its really stressful during walk offs. footstooling is your best friend during these parts.

i think marth gets more penalty than wolf. i'm like pretty sure. he might slide out of the range of the fsmash though.

if you keep full hop bairing you will lose stage control lmao, maybe sometimes but not a favorite option of mine

stage control means very little in the d3 mu unless d3 is on the ledge or in the air. you're already losing stage control by retreating bair and fair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_BES0Y-TYQ&feature=player_embedded

postn' dis

wow@that mad gay infinite

still tho choice made alot of good decisions in the match which got him the win, alot of them were punishing delay

there were still quite a few mistakes though. like after the first 2 flash cancels going for them over and over was just getting predictable even if where wolf ends up was being mixed up. then when wolf was edge hogged and he died it would have been really safe to recover with up b. sure you might get bair'd but you would not run the risk of just barely missing the stage. at the end a lot of those grabs could have at least been used to bthrow instead of looking for the grab release-> side b. more jump blaster would have been good too even though it wasnt possible for d3 to grab wolf when he was standing in place blastering.