Fox Matchup Export~

Ishiey · Sep 19, 2010

Fox

Current Ratio:
What to look out for:
How they will KO you:
Best/Worst spacing zone:
Campy or Aggressive?:
Tricksies:
Wolf’s most powerful tool:
Chaingrabs/Tilt Locks?:
What to do when offstage:
Stages
- Strike:
- Ban:
- Pick:

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 20, 2010

Difficult match-up for both characters but also quite fun to play.

Wolf and Fox have very different attributes but also a similar playstyle in this match-up, which is very much ground based. Almost all positions except the neutral one are not favourable for one character or the other - neither likes to be in midair a lot and both are generally better off staying away from platforms. They also pretty much neutralize each others camping game due to their extreme mobility [either on the ground or the air] and their blaster / shine. That generally leaves lots of quick paced, grounded, close range fighting as the key for the match-up.

Expect him to demand your close range game to its fullest - use lots of jab, grab and mix-ups with jab and tilt. Walk a lot; if you want to punish stuff from mid range DACUS > Dash. Both characters are very good at punishing many options so don't throw out fsmashes because can dair you OoS into a follow up, which means massive damage for you. Wolf on the other hand has bair -> fsmash / dacus guaranteed at low-mid % [like ~30% but it depends on staleness too] and later he has fthrow / dthrow -> BDacus and both combos deal close to 30%. Both characters have similar damage output and a similar point where they are close to a KO which is between 110% and 120% due to their weight KO-Power ratios.
Ideally this match-up comes down to which can outpower his opponent in close range battle so 5/5 seems like a reasonable ratio.

On a sidenote I'd like to add that I tend to avoid hitting the shield of a grounded Fox with fair - even a retreating one. His dashing Usmash really covers a lot of ground in little time and deals quite high damage as well as incredible knockback [similar to our Dacus with more knockback but less damage] and I've been killed out of a retreating fair from a Fox before - I don't think any other character is able to do that. If I use fair in this match-up it's often to finish Fox off out of a juggle.

I don't think stages matter all that much in this match-up tbh. Both seem to do pretty much the same on most stages *shrug*

Conviction · Sep 20, 2010

^ After reading that I don't see much of a reason to explain anything MU-wise, unless are little questions. Maybe by next Saturday I can have the list of moves Fox can punish from Wolf. Also I wouldn't mind if I saw the Wolf's produce the same. (Moves Wolf can punish Fox for using.)

~ Gheb ~ · Sep 20, 2010

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10807425&postcount=42

It's a bit inacurate and not complete - just a rough overview of what works against what. Some things are unrealistic [Nair punishing jab1 has to be frame perfect] and impractical. I'm actually working on a bigger project of what moves Wolf can punish [against the whole cast] but it'll take a while. If anything I can do the data for Fox asap and post them for the current discussion - fortunately the Fox boards have extensive frame data to work with.

Conviction · Sep 20, 2010

Luxor has done a good job an has the most update (and probably last version) of Fox's Frame data. Also I have a similar project like that going on.

Choice · Sep 20, 2010

i'll see if i can convince trevonte to come in and post (without trolling) how this mu looks like. we should try to get TKD to post in here too.

Conviction · Sep 20, 2010

choice_ said:
i'll see if i can convince trevonte to come in and post (without trolling) how this mu looks like. we should try to get TKD to post in here too.

I'll get TKD. When he gets on AIM.

Deleted member · Sep 20, 2010

Gheb_01 said:
I don't think stages matter all that much in this match-up tbh. Both seem to do pretty much the same on most stages *shrug*

Perhaps ban Jungle Japes? Fox and Falco can zip around with side-b to the ledges on that stage, which can make things annoying.

Choice · Sep 20, 2010

wolf is gayer than fox and falco on japes.

Ishiey · Sep 20, 2010

I'd actually CP Japes against Fox if I could because of how high the ceiling is :3 Other qualities I'd look for in a stage are the focus on air combat. Stages like Norfair that favor characters that are good at moving through the air might be a good decision for Wolf because of horizontal speed, but Fox's vertical acceleration is amazing so it might be a fair trade.

Also, yeah, what Choice said. I really wish all tournaments had Japes and Norfair as legal CP stages so Wolf mains could get a borderline free game

Uhhh I'm definitely going to post more on this later, but both characters can gimp eachother with shine (Fox can shine Wolf after getting caught in upB lol, it's hilarious... :<), basic rule here is to avoid using upB whenever possible. DIing out of Fox's fair and shining is great, as is just trading with your own fair/bair. If you see Fox getting close, try FH shine to escape (since he lacks disjoints on aerials and has low horizontal airspeed), worst case scenario is probably eating an upair as opposed to a dair>whatever. If you can force Fox to approach, crouch to discourage a fair and get ready for either a dair/shield/dashattack (retreating fair beats out all but shield, jumpshine gets you out of there for all but beats dair).

I played Meep and another Fox in friendlies for a bit at APEX, idk how familiar they were with the matchup but I was doing pretty good against Meep (approximately even split of wins/losses) and didn't lose against any other Fox. Part of me wants to say it's slightly in Wolf's favor, but idk, Fox's usmash really does punish/kill too well for it to be far from even.

Also, Fox's JJC. Can it really chain Wolf across the stage? I try to avoid cqc with Fox because of how fast his jab is, hence the importance of not getting daired

Seagull Joe · Sep 20, 2010

I hate Fox. End of story. I played Meep's Fox too much already. Ugh...

My opinion on this matchup is probably different from other's perspective, but I'll see what peepz post before I do a write up.

_Kain_ · Sep 20, 2010

Fox has to be at full hop distance when he dairs to get no lag on lading. If he short hop dairs he'll have a bit of lag for you to capitalize on if you block it

meepxzero · Sep 20, 2010

mus probably even.

Fox has all the tools to punish all of wolfs attacks, but wolf has enough viable moves to mix up his approaches to keep the fox guessing.

plus we cant laser camp wolf due to his reflector so if we are down a stock/percent we have to approach putting us at a disadvantage.

_Kain_ · Sep 21, 2010

They both can punish each other's moves pretty well. No one better than the other

When it comes to gimping who has the adv??? Like to see some opinions. Mine is wolf. Once i get some debate i'll explain my opinion

castorpollux · Sep 21, 2010

_Kain_ said:
They both can punish each other's moves pretty well. No one better than the other

When it comes to gimping who has the adv??? Like to see some opinions. Mine is wolf. Once i get some debate i'll explain my opinion

for the sake of debate, I DISAGREEE

_Kain_ · Sep 21, 2010

castorpollux said:
for the sake of debate, I DISAGREEE

No you cheated I want a fox main

Ishiey · Sep 21, 2010

Come on guys, productive posts

I kindasorta secondary Fox, if that counts >__> Anyways, I think Wolf wins in the gimping department, simply because it's easier for Wolf to force Fox to upB (nair/shine sideb) than it is for Fox to force Wolf. Unfortunately, once we're forced to upB it's pathetically easy for Fox to gimp us ;___;

_Kain_ · Sep 21, 2010

Ishieymoro said:
Come on guys, productive posts

I kindasorta secondary Fox, if that counts >__> Anyways, I think Wolf wins in the gimping department, simply because it's easier for Wolf to force Fox to upB (nair/shine sideb) than it is for Fox to force Wolf. Unfortunately, once we're forced to upB it's pathetically easy for Fox to gimp us ;___;

How does fox force us to up b tho?

Conviction · Sep 21, 2010

Shine,Dsmash,Nair offstage,Bair,Dair offstage.

I would suggest trying to blaster a recovering Fox if he still has his double jump.

castorpollux · Sep 21, 2010

that's why more wolfs should up B at a downward angle more as a mix up. it makes it harder for people to gimp you

Laem · Sep 21, 2010

make sure to not accidently land on stage with it though, the lag is unbearable xD

castorpollux · Sep 21, 2010

Laem said:
make sure to not accidently land on stage with it though, the lag is unbearable xD

it's actually a lot easier than people think it is. I swear it's easier to grab the ledge when angled down than it is when it's angled up

TMT · Sep 23, 2010

yeah, totally agree xD
and if you hit your opponent (don't know, why he should jump in xD but if he does) UpB pulls him under the stage

Choice · Sep 23, 2010

fox should not be gimping wolf. his gimp game is terribad.

Conviction · Sep 23, 2010

Nair, Shine, Drillshine aren't bad.

Choice · Sep 23, 2010

those arent bad moves but fox jumping off stage and attempting these as gimps is unless its vs up b i guess.

Conviction · Sep 23, 2010

Drillshine the most risky out of them. You can IA the Nair to make it safer and land back on stage.

Choice · Sep 23, 2010

iunno, it just shouldnt happen really. you're doing it wrong if it does.

_Kain_ · Sep 23, 2010

Never had a fox do nething to me gimpwise other than shine me out of up b which was my fault for bein put in a position to up b

Then again....on wifi i remember Samboner hoggin the ledge n when i side b he wud FF DJ Nair and he wud hit me out of it...blastering when recovering then DJ Side Bing put a stop to that though

Choice · Sep 27, 2010

^ exactly. everything fox has in terms of gimping theres an easy solution to it. it doesnt really affect the mu so we should just discuss other things instead of debating it.

Deleted member · Sep 28, 2010

This MU is gonna become pretty important, as I'm sure you will see numerous Fox players pop up thanks to the new tier list. Once at kill percent, just watch out for dair>Up-smash.

Ishiey · Sep 28, 2010

Watch out for dair > dsmash when you're near the ledge... with bad DI that's going to suck :x If you're good with SDI, you can actually SDI out of Fox's dair :O but that's really hardcore, as long as you can SDI enough so that the dsmash doesn't send you towards the closer ledge you should be doing okay enough regardless of DI.

Choice · Sep 28, 2010

careful that you dont sdi up though cuz then you're setting yourself up for usmash. hmm unless if maybe you can shine before he can usmash you if you sdi up. i wouldnt know.

Ishiey · Sep 28, 2010

Dair combos depend on %, dsmash works earlier than usmash by quite a significant amount which is when I'm saying you should DI well because I got owned by bad DI out of dair>dsmash twice in tournament at %s where usmash would not have killed :x

Choice · Sep 28, 2010

dair also combos into usmash if the character is in the air slightly instead of being grounded, too i thought. i know certain parts of dair and certain %'s allow for it to combo into usmash.

M.C. Pee-Pants · Oct 1, 2010

choice_ said:
dair also combos into usmash if the character is in the air slightly instead of being grounded, too i thought. i know certain parts of dair and certain %'s allow for it to combo into usmash.[/QUOTE}

also at high percentages Dair can make u trip so it atomatically a free upsmash or dsmash

GUARD · Oct 16, 2010

Ishieymoro said:
I'd actually CP Japes against Fox if I could because of how high the ceiling is :3

ok...... allow me to teach you the ceiling (high and low) for Fox. If the ceiling is Low, then Fox will kill aproximately 10% earlier.......but Fox will probably die much ealier too. If the ceiling is High, then Fox will kill approximately 10-15 % later.....but will also be a real PAIN to kill Fox.

in other words....the HIGHER the cieling the better it is for Fox. Fox has one of (arguably THE) best Momentum Cancel in the game. So killing Fox in a place like Japes is a Nightmare......while Fox will only have to deal VERY LITTLE more % to kill others.

Deleted member · Oct 17, 2010

GUARD said:
ok...... allow me to teach you the ceiling (high and low) for Fox. If the ceiling is Low, then Fox will kill aproximately 10% earlier.......but Fox will probably die much ealier too. If the ceiling is High, then Fox will kill approximately 10-15 % later.....but will also be a real PAIN to kill Fox.

in other words....the HIGHER the cieling the better it is for Fox. Fox has one of (arguably THE) best Momentum Cancel in the game. So killing Fox in a place like Japes is a Nightmare......while Fox will only have to deal VERY LITTLE more % to kill others.

Wolf can kill off of the side of Japes just fine. I don't think his momentum cancel would be enough to save him from a well placed bair or dsmash.

castorpollux · Oct 17, 2010

Or dthrow into claptrap combo

Ishiey · Oct 17, 2010

I was going to say that :< lol

True though, Fox's momentum cancel is ****-tastic (especially compared to Wolf's... as far as we know, that is), and having the water there makes shine gimps a lot less effective (at least for me since I always camp the right side lol). Being so close to the sides also helps Fox kill with dsmash out of dair if you don't SDI it to the inside... Idk, even if the ceiling height doesn't help out Wolf I'd still go Japes for all the other things Wolf has going for him there

Fox Matchup Export~

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