Noa.
Smash Master
Luigi
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Actually, I throw away reds. Usually the only things they're good for are Usmashes and Fair, and both get out-prioritized the majority of the time in this matchup, so whenever I have a red I find myself wishing it was yellow or purple.keep a couple reds in your lineup so you can fsmash through fireballs when they try approaching in this way
when luigi jabs you, always sdi away because they like doing jab cancels - grab/up-b
Np, can't wait to read it ^_^Give me a bit of time and I can make a post about the matchup. Been super busy lately.
Short and sweet, but productiveLuigi Match-up:
pikmin toss until close
pivot grab / fsmash if they're coming from the ground
Usmash OoS if they're coming from the air
DI jab up
Don't jump often
Last minute thoughts, don't go for throw combos unless they're guaranteed (see: The Onion). Dthrow... ****ing wait your anxious *** a minute... they nair... throw out another grab -> profit.
CPs: Delfino and PS1
Ban: Smashville
@5: Depending on the luigi, Even throwing 1 Latch Opens Oppertunity for a nado, which means you cant grab or pivot. This is bad. SidenoteLosing 2 Pikmin and being Nado'ed will most likely leave you in the air, Followed by air pressure and more than likely putting you outside of the stage. Being 2down pikmin Sucks.)
5) Never try to latch more than 2 pikmin max on Luigi. It's ridiculously easy for him to get them off, and if he does then you're sitting there waiting for your pikmin to come back. 1-2 pikmin also draw less attention, so if you're good at it you can slowly rack damage over time.
6) A lot of this matchup is throwing pikmin until Luigi approaches, then punishing him for his approach of choice - the way Olimar plays many matchups. However, as some of our normal tools don't work as well due to priority issues, this matchup requires you to understand your opponents playstyle a bit so that you can more effectively counter with the tools you do have.
I think that covers the basics for now. Anyone else can add to the list, or suggest a change if I'm incorrect about anything.
Not really. Luigi is one of the only characters that has more kill options than we do, lol. And even more on us are available than he has on most other characters. One of his best kill moves, utilt, is difficult to see coming, so be wary of it. It doesn't kill as early as most of his other kill options, but it's his most reliable one, I would say.luigi's kill moves are also fairly telegraphed so plz whistle most of them
Not a good idea. Whistling through his low percentage combos puts us right back down next to him for us to get comboed again, and trying to counter his combos with aerial options of our own isn't a good idea because we have too much lag to do so, compared to Luigi. If it were against another character, it might be a good idea. If you do whistle through his air combos, get the hell away. Don't try to whistle any combos luigi does on the ground (Jab, Utilt, etc). Only whistle his aerials. You don't want to be near him.2) Luigi loves to combo people at low percents and he's fairly good at it. Ruin his day by whistling out as soon as you can and countering - Usmash is great if you're very close to the ground and will land quickly enough, Nair is a good option after that, and then other moves are situational.
A good writeup of how to prevent and watch out for tornado. Also keep in mind that smart Luigis will tornado from the air, even from our diagonal blind spot. It's hard to counter this, usually, and our best option is to just shield and up smash him oos afterwards, instead of trying to counter it normally.3) If you and Luigi are far apart from one another, do not believe that you are safe as you would be in most matchups. Luigi has tornado, which basically matches Snake's DACUS in terms of covering ground quickly, but with the added benefit of swatting away pikmin like flies. You can counter with a Dtilt (clanks), Yellow F/Usmash (wins), or a Pivot Grab, but be careful when trying to pivot grab; it requires prediction to catch him, and if he starts to see a pattern in your pivot grab patterns then he can bait it and punish.
Keep in mind that Luigi's fireballs are laggy as hell. The lag on Luigi actually lasts longer than the fireball itself does, lol. Powershielding one gives you plenty of time to punish. Also, if he throws a fireball when you two are close, a red fsmash will eat the fireball, hitting Luigi afterwards. The main problem fireballs create are when we try to grab. If Luigi predicts a grab from us, he can throw out a fireball, breaking the grab half way through, putting us in lag, and allowing him to get a free hit.4) Watch out for fireballs. Some Luigi's like to use them to set you up for a stronger move, much like Falco uses his lasers occasionally to do the same thing, albeit much better.
Throwing less pikmin is a good idea, but not really for these reasons. It's mainly just because throwing too many pikmin allows him to close the gap easily, since he can do so while coming closer to us, not just with tornado. Any of his aerials work better, actually, and are usually generally safe as long as they don't hit our shield.5) Never try to latch more than 2 pikmin max on Luigi. It's ridiculously easy for him to get them off, and if he does then you're sitting there waiting for your pikmin to come back. 1-2 pikmin also draw less attention, so if you're good at it you can slowly rack damage over time.
@1: Up air clanks with Nair, usually giving Luigi the benefit of Down air.Nope X: Our Up Air will almost always beat his Nair, unless he Nairs the last hit of our Uair with the sweet spot of his Nair (3 frame window lol), so Uair is usually safe, unless the Pikmin is white or something and the sweet spot nair kills it lolTHIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT LOLDO NOT try to ground your nair into a smash, if you ground your nair he can DI out upwards and nair you before you can do anything. IF you end up doing, this, you are better off trying utilt/running away and pivot grabbing.
Seriously! Don't Nair -> Up Smash in this matchup. If you really want it for the kill, though, here's something you can do. Early in a stock try to go for Nair -> Up Smash, see if he Nairs it. If he does, remember that. Do it a stock or two later, but shield this time instead. Hopefully he Nairs, thinking you're going to Up Smash, but hits your shield instead, allowing you to get a friend Up Smash OOS.
But don't try it when you're at high percents under any circumstances. Sweet Spot Nair kills pretty easily.If you can, try to land a pikmin either on Luigi or in front of him when he Missles, to stop him. It won't gimp him, but it will limit his options and make him a bit more predictable. Luigi is naturally gimpable, but not so much by Olimar. Luigi's aerials are fast enough and have so much priority that going for the gimp will usually end up with us getting hit. And if we get Coined by his UpB (Sour Spot), we can often end up getting gimped by it instead lol. It has no hitstun (and I think no hitlag either), so you may end up accidently buffering another attack or not realize that you're falling until its too late. The best options are to just give him as much pressure as possible when he's off stage to rack up damage, and kill him when he's trying to get back from the ledge to the stage, which Luigi is naturally mediocre at.5. Edgeguarding - This really only matters for characters who have specific edgeguarding techniques that are unusual and effective. Consider Peach and her turnips.
FD is our best CP option. Delfino is also good. PS1 is pretty good, as is Pictochat. Watch out for Battlefield, Brinstar, Frigate, and Norfair if it's legal. Different Luigis like different CPs, so just be prepared. The thing about Norfair is that while it's generally a great stage for Luigi and a bad stage for Olimar (imo), in this matchup it's not that bad.7. Stages - Counterpicks and bans.
I'll try to stay more active in this thread.
Edit: Oh, and while i'm not the best at playing the Luigi matchup (would definitely like PS to post), I know more about Luigi as a character than most people outside of those that main him lol and the same can be said about Crash with Olimar, since we've had countless conversations about each others' characters over the past couple of years, haha. So I'm pretty good at theorycrafting XD
For characters that are more easily able to get out of nair, can't we just shield and U-smash oos?DO NOT try to ground your nair into a smash, if you ground your nair he can DI out upwards and nair you before you can do anything. IF you end up doing, this, you are better off trying utilt/running away and pivot grabbing.
Hilt said that. He half-hour ninjaed youFor characters that are more easily able to get out of nair, can't we just shield and U-smash oos?
Who let the *** into our discussion?I feel like you guys should probably let Logic and Hilt take the reigns on this.
I love the windmill.... it's like I don't have to worry about jab-shoryuken at all anymore. lol.Yeah, PS1 is a good stage for the matchup, lol. The platforms on the stage don't prove to be much of a problem. The only problem with the stage in the matchup is getting cornered in one of the areas XD trying to fight him in any close quarters (including the windmill) is a bad idea. But overall yeah, the stage works as a good CP in this situation.
actually yes you can, hilt said that as well. i havent been around in a while i forgot you guys are going crazy with usmash oos options now xDFor characters that are more easily able to get out of nair, can't we just shield and U-smash oos?
idk manNot really. Luigi is one of the only characters that has more kill options than we do, lol. And even more on us are available than he has on most other characters. One of his best kill moves, utilt, is difficult to see coming, so be wary of it. It doesn't kill as early as most of his other kill options, but it's his most reliable one, I would say.