DDD Matchup Discussion-Complete (Check Original Post!)

Small Disadvantage: (45-55) (Sheik)

Even: (50-50) (Sheik/Zelda)


Resources:

DDD Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224054

Sheik Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248288

Old Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226389


DDD Boards MU Discussion (Outdated): http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243418


Grab Release Options: None


Stages:


Neutrals: FD, SV, PS1

These stages are all fairly large and give Sheik plenty of room to run away and camp.....which is what you will want to do a lot in this matchup.

Counterpicks: FD, Pictochat, PS1, Jungle Japes

Once again, these stages are large and give Sheik room to outmanuever DDD. Jungle Japes also has a very high ceiling, allowing you to survive DDD's utilt to percentages higher han you normally would.


Bans: Rainbow Cruise, Delfino's Island, Yoshi's Island, Frigate Orpheon

These stages all give DDD advantages offstage or helping him corner you for his grab game. Avoid these stages at all costs.

Renki said:

Any place with a high ceiling that won't mess up your recovery that you're comfortable on.

I usually go Frigate on my CP for D3 if FD isn't banned, lol. Usually, I have to go to game 3 on D3. =_= I just like Frigate for some reason even though I do typically lose on it.

But yeah, high ceiling is good. Zelda can just kill him with a d-smash, or a f-smash to kill him off the sides. =)

Click to expand...

riocosta123 said:

I dislike any area with a medium-short stage in this MU because of his grab range. I don't like RC, Frigate, or the first part of Castle Stage (I'm starting not to like this stage as much because of the third part tilting so much. Also the transformation sucked me through the floor to kill me one time in tourney T.T).

Click to expand...

riocosta123 said:

I think FD, SV, Delfino, Lylat, Poke or Picto (if legal) would all be pretty good.

Click to expand...

Juushichi said:

Delfino is a bad idea, especially against a D3 who can read your tech rolls on reaction (and after a game or so, he'll be able to). Lylat seems kind of like a bad idea for recovery's sake and a couple of good uptilts will probably discourage excessive platform use. Even if it doesn't hit you, if you're knocked off (they're small), you're in a bad position. Personally, I would advise against Picto too. Granted, the D3 that I played alot favored Picto quite a bit, so I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't a factor.

Click to expand...

Juushichi said:

My personal picks for stage are BF, FD, SV, Battleship Halberd (I personally prefer this stage quite a bit), Brinstar, Norfair and Poke Stadium 1.

Click to expand...

Matchup Discussion:

Renki said:

Any place with a high ceiling that won't mess up your recovery that you're comfortable on.

I usually go Frigate on my CP for D3 if FD isn't banned, lol. Usually, I have to go to game 3 on D3. =_= I just like Frigate for some reason even though I do typically lose on it.

But yeah, high ceiling is good. Zelda can just kill him with a d-smash, or a f-smash to kill him off the sides. =)

Click to expand...

riocosta123 said:

I dislike any area with a medium-short stage in this MU because of his grab range. I don't like RC, Frigate, or the first part of Castle Stage (I'm starting not to like this stage as much because of the third part tilting so much. Also the transformation sucked me through the floor to kill me one time in tourney T.T).
I think FD, SV, Delfino, Lylat, Poke or Picto (if legal) would all be pretty good.

Click to expand...

Renki said:

Haha, well, Dedede is...fun.
Dedede's well known for his infamous chaingrab ability on a large portion of the cast. He's also known for his ridiculous grab range as well. Fortunately, Dedede does not have a chaingrab on Sheik OR Zelda. However, if you're predictable with your response to his d-grab, he can either punish you heavily for it, or pseudo chaingrab you. Just be aware of this and mixup your responses if he does d-grab you.

With that said, Sheik doesn't do too poorly at all against Dedede. She can rack up damage like a champ on him due to his large frame and poor mobility. Needles are excellent against him when Waddle Dees/Doos aren't being used as shields. I think there's only 2 real difficulties in this matchup. That's getting Dedede to kill percents and recovering.

As I had said, Dedede's a fatty. Like, really fat. The ***** is HUGE. Like Snake, He's going to live for a very, very long time. Truthfully, I would knock him off stage, switch to zelda when he's around 120-130, then kill him. It's not very hard at all to kill Dedede with Zelda, lol. If you want to go Sheik, just be ready for a bit of a time trying to kill him. :\

And recovering...well, I've heard before that Sheik's have difficult recovering against Dedede. I don't experience this personally, but I can understand why this can occur. Dedede's bair is...well, stupid. It's hitbox is fairly large, and it lingers for seemingly forever. It's understandable that you might take a bit of damage from Dedede's bair if you're not careful. You need to remember two things though. One, do NOT use your second jump useless you REALLY have to. Two, ALWAYS DI the bair up, lol. Otherwise, yeah, you're probably dead. I would hope his Bair isn't fresh as well when it hits you offstage. Then, you'll probably be dead anyways. Dedede's air mobility is awful (so is ours, lol, but still), so you just have to be aware of his position and adjust accordingly.

I might've missed some points, but that's the gist of the matchup from my understanding. F-tilt is beautiful against Dedede. <3

45-55 D3 imo just because he really never dies. :\

Click to expand...

-Mars- said:

Just to add on to what Renki said:
I think it's 45-55 DDD advantage, but you have to play very cautious in the matchup. The weight difference makes your KO percentages about 100% apart from each other (no seriously). Unless you can get a gimp or land a tipper for some reason, expect DDD to die at around 200 or possibly even higher. I don't switch to Zelda in this matchup personally, but others find it easier to KO. Ftilt>usmash works well here......DDD is going to throw out Waddle Dees and stuff to stop needle camping so you can literally decay your ftilt as much as you want. He's also huge so ftilt locks him forever. Ftilt isn't safe on block against him though iirc, so make sure you dont ftilt his shield.

Bair (perfectly spaced), chain, and needles are the only options safe on block against DDD. His bthrow plus a pummel is about a fifth of Sheiks stock so avoiding grabs is essential in this matchup. Like Renki said he also has easy reads out of his dthrow to look out for. He's going to sit in his shield a lot with running shield approaches and he's also got an amazing spotdodge. Running cross up bairs and fairs on his shield works well. Imo the main focus for Sheik in the MU should be getting DDD into the air and punishing his landing accordingly. You can't challenge him in the air but getting underneath him for quick utilts and uairs works well for me.

Once you get DDD offstage, you should be able to harass his recovery enough to tack on a sizeable amount of damage. His recovery is predictable and needles force him to recover from certain spots. He also has limited options from the ledge so getting back to the stage should be hell for him.

On the flip side. He can **** our recovery as well. Landing back on stage without getting grabbed is a pain. All the other typical DDD stuff like bair, ftilt, dair, inhale, etc. are good against Sheik. I would advise saving needle storms to punish his ftilt. Also advice against DACUS.

My rambling thoughts.

Click to expand...

choknater said:

i dont mind killing him with fair at 230 LOL
its hard to not get grabbed, but thats the key to winning this matchup. to beat all his other moves u just stay away

its easy to find openings between his moves to attack him

another good thing to do in this matchup is to grab him a lot

cuz they like to stay in their shields

theres also a lot of time when he lands that he cant do a move, which gives us ample time to approach and grab. his shield comes out way faster than any ground attack he has, so his best option when he lands is to shield, so thats a free grab. he has to land far away from you to be safe, which gives us time to charge needles. it is possible to maintain momentum in this matchup, but remember that ddd's are very good at grabbing and if they get like 5 bthrows, we are already in kill percent. let alone their dthrow mixups... i feel dumb getting hit by dsmashes and ddd's dash attack lol

Click to expand...

Dark 3nergy said:

strong hit box

weak box comes out about 3 frames later

weak box lingers for about eh 14ish? frames. It does stay out awhile if you look at all 3 of the images together.

About the mu, welp from 0% your gonna want to get inside and ftilt DDD and finish your ftilt comboing into where ever the DDD decides to DI too. Or whatevers safest for sheik. What you dont want is for him to DI out, pshield your ftilt and grab you out of it. Use needles to force approaches and watch for dee toss as they can easily interrupt your needles. Dont just charge all your needles then toss'em out. Mix it up to keep DDD guessing, because if you dont your needles will get pshielded and you'll be punished. Use 1 or 2 needles, or even jump and needle him to pester him. Once you get him in the air hit'em with fair/bair to build damage and knock him away with nair/uair. If you get a grab on him at low % dthrow, to whatever you want.

What DDD is gonna do most of the time for throws is either dthrow or bthrow or fthrow if your at high% he if gets you at the ledge. Prolly bthrow as its 16% fresh, and dthrow he can tech chase you. Mix up your rolls, get ups or you'll get regrabed and punished. He'll be using bair as his aerial damaging tool and ftilt or grabs to punish you for mis spaced jumps. For edge guarding DDD, your gonna want to force him to upb-- always. Keep knocking him off stage and possibly pestering him with needles.

Killing DDD wont be easy for poor sheik so either keep your kill moves very fresh or switch to Zelda for the death blow.

So consider your stages you want to go to for this;

Alot of DDDs mu's can sort of change abit depending on the stage, especially if the character in question is CGable. But this is Sheik tho. For Sheik, i think you guys would do well hiding under platforms, and forcing DDD to come to you[you want this part esp]. So i'd say BF, Yoshi's might be good, Lylat. The rest of the neutrals give DDD more breathing room which he likes, so its up to you.

Counter pick wise; Im not sure about this part either. Seeing as her recovery isnt stellar, the DDD might choose to go to rainbow cruise on you. Cant say i know much about CP DDD in this MU. But i'll say that brinstar and norfair are two maps that usually work against DDDs grab game. The other thing bout norfair and brinstars 'lava' elements is that it forces aerial combat on DDD. DDD is slow in the air. I think sheik would enjoy free acid damage on DDD if it'll help her kill easier. Thats just what i think anyway. Most DDDs will prolly CP you to rainbow,frigate, since these 2 places can hurt sheik in recovering or whatever they feel comfortable with.

Click to expand...

<3 said:

Needles/ just run away and throw needles.

If he throws a waddle throw needles as a response 1 needle hits the waddle pops it up. the rest hit the DDD. ftilt lock. be careful trying to shield grab aerials cuz he has the swallow option on landing whch flat out beast sheild. (utilt beast all of his aerial landing options though except dair)

so yeah run away needl euntil he messes up and punish with ftilt locks (at the right percents) and eventually kill moves.

Zelda is probablly your best kill option after even after ftilt usmash range since that is a very dangerous thing to try and land in this match up IMO. I mean if the D3 give it to you take it. but most D3's hand out in their sheild and wait for things like that. zelda can apply pressure against D3 very very easily and she punishes D3's recover WAY!!!!! better than sheik ever could with LKs.

switching to zelda for a kill and then back to sheik also refreshes your moves which lets you build damage faster and start locks and combos are earlier percents than if they were stale.

Click to expand...

Videos:

Choknater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrBUitQAqv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCZVl...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGjOl...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mesHQ...eature=related

Haha, well, Dedede is...fun.

Dedede's well known for his infamous chaingrab ability on a large portion of the cast. He's also known for his ridiculous grab range as well. Fortunately, Dedede does not have a chaingrab on Sheik OR Zelda. However, if you're predictable with your response to his d-grab, he can either punish you heavily for it, or pseudo chaingrab you. Just be aware of this and mixup your responses if he does d-grab you.

With that said, Sheik doesn't do too poorly at all against Dedede. She can rack up damage like a champ on him due to his large frame and poor mobility. Needles are excellent against him when Waddle Dees/Doos aren't being used as shields. I think there's only 2 real difficulties in this matchup. That's getting Dedede to kill percents and recovering.

As I had said, Dedede's a fatty. Like, really fat. The ***** is HUGE. Like Snake, He's going to live for a very, very long time. Truthfully, I would knock him off stage, switch to zelda when he's around 120-130, then kill him. It's not very hard at all to kill Dedede with Zelda, lol. If you want to go Sheik, just be ready for a bit of a time trying to kill him. :\

And recovering...well, I've heard before that Sheik's have difficult recovering against Dedede. I don't experience this personally, but I can understand why this can occur. Dedede's bair is...well, stupid. It's hitbox is fairly large, and it lingers for seemingly forever. It's understandable that you might take a bit of damage from Dedede's bair if you're not careful. You need to remember two things though. One, do NOT use your second jump useless you REALLY have to. Two, ALWAYS DI the bair up, lol. Otherwise, yeah, you're probably dead. I would hope his Bair isn't fresh as well when it hits you offstage. Then, you'll probably be dead anyways. Dedede's air mobility is awful (so is ours, lol, but still), so you just have to be aware of his position and adjust accordingly.

I might've missed some points, but that's the gist of the matchup from my understanding. F-tilt is beautiful against Dedede. <3

45-55 D3 imo just because he really never dies. :\

I need help with this MU, I kinda plan to play with this MU specifically more.

Just to add on to what Renki said:

I think it's 45-55 DDD advantage, but you have to play very cautious in the matchup. The weight difference makes your KO percentages about 100% apart from each other (no seriously). Unless you can get a gimp or land a tipper for some reason, expect DDD to die at around 200 or possibly even higher. I don't switch to Zelda in this matchup personally, but others find it easier to KO. Ftilt>usmash works well here......DDD is going to throw out Waddle Dees and stuff to stop needle camping so you can literally decay your ftilt as much as you want. He's also huge so ftilt locks him forever. Ftilt isn't safe on block against him though iirc, so make sure you dont ftilt his shield.

Bair (perfectly spaced), chain, and needles are the only options safe on block against DDD. His bthrow plus a pummel is about a fifth of Sheiks stock so avoiding grabs is essential in this matchup. Like Renki said he also has easy reads out of his dthrow to look out for. He's going to sit in his shield a lot with running shield approaches and he's also got an amazing spotdodge. Running cross up bairs and fairs on his shield works well. Imo the main focus for Sheik in the MU should be getting DDD into the air and punishing his landing accordingly. You can't challenge him in the air but getting underneath him for quick utilts and uairs works well for me.

Once you get DDD offstage, you should be able to harass his recovery enough to tack on a sizeable amount of damage. His recovery is predictable and needles force him to recover from certain spots. He also has limited options from the ledge so getting back to the stage should be hell for him.

On the flip side. He can **** our recovery as well. Landing back on stage without getting grabbed is a pain. All the other typical DDD stuff like bair, ftilt, dair, inhale, etc. are good against Sheik. I would advise saving needle storms to punish his ftilt. Also advice against DACUS.

My rambling thoughts.

honestly,don't even try to go for a kill before 150ish, because if you do and he lives, thats gonna add another probably 10-15% to when you would have had to kill him before cause you stale the usmash. General rule with any character but in this matchup and with sheik especially

Actually, I think the thread of the hoving dair is a little bit more of an issue for Sheik in this matchup more than the bair. I've found on popup's that just a poking, quick uair on our part helps quite a bit in keeping him airborne. I like to jab cancel against D3's, but against good ones I don't think that it's particularly good idea in this matchup. I think the kill move I have the most on D3's is a well-spaced bair at the 160-180 range, since they're going to like to recover high against Sheik.

I think I mindgamed a D3 with a dash-dance hyphen smash once.

i dont mind killing him with fair at 230 LOL

its hard to not get grabbed, but thats the key to winning this matchup. to beat all his other moves u just stay away

its easy to find openings between his moves to attack him

another good thing to do in this matchup is to grab him a lot

cuz they like to stay in their shields

theres also a lot of time when he lands that he cant do a move, which gives us ample time to approach and grab. his shield comes out way faster than any ground attack he has, so his best option when he lands is to shield, so thats a free grab. he has to land far away from you to be safe, which gives us time to charge needles. it is possible to maintain momentum in this matchup, but remember that ddd's are very good at grabbing and if they get like 5 bthrows, we are already in kill percent. let alone their dthrow mixups... i feel dumb getting hit by dsmashes and ddd's dash attack lol

This is all people have on this MU? Really?

In all honesty, D3 is one of the matchups I quite rarely come across. I don't think there's really all that many intricate details to this matchup compared to ones like MK, Snake, Falco, Diddy, etc.

D3 is fairly one-dimensional. The only real way he can surprise you is if you mess up...and badly at that. What other particulars in the matchup are you looking for?

The problem is unless you're godlike at spacing, whenever I play this MU I feel you're literally banking on D3 not knowing how to punish you or guessing what you do, unless you camp like crazy.

phi1ny3 said:

The problem is unless you're godlike at spacing, whenever I play this MU I feel you're literally banking on D3 not knowing how to punish you or guessing what you do, unless you camp like crazy.

Click to expand...

then just play the m until you arent ****ing up your spacing..?

In this MU: both parties try to grab the **** out of each other because they get ***** hard on shield

Pivot grabs can really give DDD trouble when he's trying to land since he's so fat. If he's doing a wall of bairs, I would try to get the rhythm down for a running powershield, needles, blah blah blah

Patience, patience, and more patience. DDD is a boring mother****er to fight, but it's not like he has a ton of options either. If he doesn't sdi a utilt you can get a ftilt lock off of it at low percents. I highly advocate a Zelda change since she does pretty well against him.

Also, I swear DDD mains spotdodge like a million times more than any other character main since all they have is grab OOS, so respond with one of our million long lasting moves.

Refresh your kill moves with jab on waddle dees, because there's no reason why you shouldn't hit DDD with a million bairs when he's recovering.

I haven't played this MU in a year with Sheik. Sorry guys, I'm useless lol.

if you perfectly space fast fall bair and they powershield it can they shield grab you?
retreating n/fair?

I think a perfectly spaced bair DDD can't shieldgrab. A rising nair might also work, but a fair is definitely getting *****.

Renki said:

Dedede's bair is...well, stupid. It's hitbox is fairly large, and it lingers for seemingly forever.

Click to expand...

strong hit box


weak box comes out about 3 frames later



weak box lingers for about eh 14ish? frames. It does stay out awhile if you look at all 3 of the images together.

About the mu, welp from 0% your gonna want to get inside and ftilt DDD and finish your ftilt comboing into where ever the DDD decides to DI too. Or whatevers safest for sheik. What you dont want is for him to DI out, pshield your ftilt and grab you out of it. Use needles to force approaches and watch for dee toss as they can easily interrupt your needles. Dont just charge all your needles then toss'em out. Mix it up to keep DDD guessing, because if you dont your needles will get pshielded and you'll be punished. Use 1 or 2 needles, or even jump and needle him to pester him. Once you get him in the air hit'em with fair/bair to build damage and knock him away with nair/uair. If you get a grab on him at low % dthrow, to whatever you want.

What DDD is gonna do most of the time for throws is either dthrow or bthrow or fthrow if your at high% he if gets you at the ledge. Prolly bthrow as its 16% fresh, and dthrow he can tech chase you. Mix up your rolls, get ups or you'll get regrabed and punished. He'll be using bair as his aerial damaging tool and ftilt or grabs to punish you for mis spaced jumps. For edge guarding DDD, your gonna want to force him to upb-- always. Keep knocking him off stage and possibly pestering him with needles.

Killing DDD wont be easy for poor sheik so either keep your kill moves very fresh or switch to Zelda for the death blow.

So consider your stages you want to go to for this;

Alot of DDDs mu's can sort of change abit depending on the stage, especially if the character in question is CGable. But this is Sheik tho. For Sheik, i think you guys would do well hiding under platforms, and forcing DDD to come to you[you want this part esp]. So i'd say BF, Yoshi's might be good, Lylat. The rest of the neutrals give DDD more breathing room which he likes, so its up to you.

Counter pick wise; Im not sure about this part either. Seeing as her recovery isnt stellar, the DDD might choose to go to rainbow cruise on you. Cant say i know much about CP DDD in this MU. But i'll say that brinstar and norfair are two maps that usually work against DDDs grab game. The other thing bout norfair and brinstars 'lava' elements is that it forces aerial combat on DDD. DDD is slow in the air. I think sheik would enjoy free acid damage on DDD if it'll help her kill easier. Thats just what i think anyway. Most DDDs will prolly CP you to rainbow,frigate, since these 2 places can hurt sheik in recovering or whatever they feel comfortable with.

Orion* said:

then just play the m until you arent ****ing up your spacing..?

Click to expand...

Yeah that's probably it.

Also is it just me or are Sheik's tech options out of dthrow kinda iffy? I'm usually good at outplaying a tech chase but with sheik v. D3 one dthrow = usually a bthrow afterwards.

shieks tech rolls i can do on reaction with d3 lmao, theyre pretty booty XD

Orion* said:

if you perfectly space fast fall bair and they powershield it can they shield grab you?
retreating n/fair?

Click to expand...

rising retreating FH fair can't be grabbed by DDD but if he shields and dashes under you're in an awful position

^What he said.

can't sheik just fair shields and then jab/spotdodge a shieldgrab
Biggad did it all the time vs me, but maybe i'm just bad

Playing this as well 2moro. Get my exp up and then share lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrBUitQAqv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCZVlIx2ybQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGjOlrHLQyY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mesHQT7DY00&feature=related

please help

Chok still plays??????? O yea!!! bout ta watch the whole set

hehe we go 2-2 in the vids

but i lost that day 4-5

4 weeks ago i beat him 5-4

i gotta get him next time!

i just gotta learn how to play on his cp stages (he picks frigate if i ban rainbow). its very doable but i needa know what mistakes im making on those stages, its hard for me to get more needle breathing room so i approach more which is bad

anyway, i've found that even though im USUALLY more comfortable on small stages, ddd is unfortunately slightly better than sheik at controlling close range space. so i found that if i just go fd or sv and dash away more and charge needles, the matchup is much easier.

choknater said:

hehe we go 2-2 in the vids

but i lost that day 4-5

4 weeks ago i beat him 5-4

i gotta get him next time!

i just gotta learn how to play on his cp stages (he picks frigate if i ban rainbow). its very doable but i needa know what mistakes im making on those stages, its hard for me to get more needle breathing room so i approach more which is bad

anyway, i've found that even though im USUALLY more comfortable on small stages, ddd is unfortunately slightly better than sheik at controlling close range space. so i found that if i just go fd or sv and dash away more and charge needles, the matchup is much easier.

Click to expand...

The last sentence pretty much summarizes the whole MU, aside from crossups and avoiding bair oos when you try to go over D3.

Pretty good matches, glad you still play :D

Needles/ just run away and throw needles.

If he throws a waddle throw needles as a response 1 needle hits the waddle pops it up. the rest hit the DDD. ftilt lock. be careful trying to shield grab aerials cuz he has the swallow option on landing whch flat out beast sheild. (utilt beast all of his aerial landing options though except dair)

so yeah run away needl euntil he messes up and punish with ftilt locks (at the right percents) and eventually kill moves.

Zelda is probablly your best kill option after even after ftilt usmash range since that is a very dangerous thing to try and land in this match up IMO. I mean if the D3 give it to you take it. but most D3's hand out in their sheild and wait for things like that. zeld acan apply pressure against D3 very very easily and she punishes D3's recover WAY!!!!! better than sheik ever could with LKs.

switching to zelda for a kill and then back to sheik also refreshes your moves which lets you build damage faster and start locks and combos are earlier percents than if they were stale.

So is there a ratio we could all agree on for this matchup? Looks like about everything has been covered.

I like even, because there aren't many situations where D3 can actually get his kills. you should never be close enough for utilt to hit and Bair kills at crazy high percents if you di correctly and you been battling him the whole stock. D3's throws don't kill and his recovery is easier to punish than ours.

I'd say 50-50

My personal opinion is 45-55, strictly because of the weight difference.

Even actually doesnt sound wrong to me though.

What about everyone else?

Sheik solo, 45:55 imo

Sheik/Zelda 50:50 imo

I would say 45:55 solo, even or 55:45 if you have a good Zelda.

It's not like his bair has to kill us out right, DDD can edgeguard us pretty well and keep us off the edge because of his amazing grab range, but I think transforming gives us a nice bump.

D3 isn't as amazing as people think of stage his poor mobility horizontally and vertically really limit him off stage. if he tries to go off stage and you have a jump you are getting back between the chain and the invincibility of vanish.

He can punish vanish better than most because of his grab range though so it makes that option not as favorable.

I mean, yeah, you can get to the stage but he can pretty easily grab/bthrow you back off it.

Renki said:

Sheik solo, 45:55 imo

Sheik/Zelda 50:50 imo

Click to expand...

i agree. maybe even in our favor with a good zelda.

I quickly learned that I dislike this MU. Like really dislike it but it's probably that I need more experience.

With a competent Zelda, this can easily be our MU.

I agree with Sheik being at a disadvantage due to weight but with Zelda it's even or a tad better.

We probably need to discuss stages at this point.

I like FD or SV for starting stages. FD for room to run away and SV for the platform helping us getting back to the stage safely.

I would ban Rainbow Cruise maybe? I really have no idea on what to ban.

Counterpick I would take a look at Japes if I couldn't go to FD.

What are your guys' thoughts?

Any place with a high ceiling that won't mess up your recovery that you're comfortable on.

I usually go Frigate on my CP for D3 if FD isn't banned, lol. Usually, I have to go to game 3 on D3. =_= I just like Frigate for some reason even though I do typically lose on it.

But yeah, high ceiling is good. Zelda can just kill him with a d-smash, or a f-smash to kill him off the sides. =)

i just think its dumb that hes the only character who can shield grab our perfectly spaced late tipper bair

other than that i find this matchup fun and not that hard :D though i lost my last set

charizard can too...

just use bair facing the other way then jab.