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Additional dthrow information (#7)

SuSa

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Also Ph1ny3 made this post a while ago about crouching to help us techchase:
Originally Posted by Ph1ny3
So I have a question:
As we all know, there isn't much of a lag penalty to buffering things out of a crouch, including dash. I noticed while practicing tech chasing with snake dthrowthat if you crouch before they make a move, if they roll backwards, your body frame slows them down, making that side much easier to cover. If it is possible to buffer shield, dash, and other moves out of crouch to still cover the other options, would this make some of the characters with a good backwards roll less effective in playing against dthrow?

Edit: In fact, if you buffer the crawl backwards at the right time, they won't roll behind you, like the dthrow vs. Charizard effect
Lets step our metagame up!

I was reading one of Yume's thread and saw this. I like where this could lead to, and the edit is kind of useless. :laugh: But whatever.

First off, here is a list of things that I've been reading and was unable to find information on regarding if anyone tested it:

1) Does dthrow significantly change the back roll of characters with good back rolls? (You can check my dthrow thread to find a list of such characters...)

2) Does dthrow actually dodge any getup attacks? Someone mentioned this, and it was tossed aside. While I do know many getup attacks hit low on the ground, there are some that don't. Aside from me not being 100% sure on the hitboxes - Samus, Ganon, and C. Falcon are three that would be interesting to know considering their hitboxes are more of an in-the-air thing.

3) I don't remember if we ever did >100 and <100% getup attacks from the ground. I forget if they are the same or not. Can someone test this for me. I should really just hook up my wii....

4) Someone needs to find a testing partner and test I forget his names idea about Fsmash'ing for edgeguarding. Grab characters and see if you can stop any of them from grabbing the ledge from their recovery. Start straight below, then work sideways until you can stop them. Better idea, someone who has a softmodded wii and is willing to put on the Hitbox code thing. (I don't know what it's called), go take a screenshot of Snake using an Fsmash at the edge of the stage. This way we can actually have a perfect hitbox picture for it rather than relying on an estimation.

5) Dtilt isn't useless and actually outranges utilt horizontally. It comes out on the same frame (frame 6) and has less endlag. Not that that makes any significant difference... Oh, you also don't have to crouch to dtilt so it's definately as fast as utilt. ;)

6) There's a certain recover fakeout I've been theorycrafting and I need to hook up my wii to see if it works. To hard to explain it for others to test. :urg:

7) I have a few ideas for some grenade placements and tactics that I haven't seen in vids. Quite a few are common sense, but I've yet to see them being done. I also need to make sure I'm theorycrafting one of these correctly in my mind.. it might not actually work in game :laugh:

8) Step the game up Snake's. If I have to find the way to break the MK matchup by no lifing for three weeks, I'll force one of you to do it because I can't spend that long. :mad:

9) ............................ *finds my metagame thread* http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208045 remember this stuffs

10) I need to make another thread just to see something. Don't worry, it's going to be useful as well.
 

etecoon

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MK MU only gets more and more in MK's favor all the time, not breaking that any time soon hahahaha

I laugh because it keeps me from crying
 

SuSa

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MK MU only gets more and more in MK's favor all the time hahahaha

I laugh because it keeps me from crying
Only because no Snake is doing jack **** about it, our playstyles are growing rusty and MK's are answering what used to bother them - but we aren't answering back. :confused:

Second thought, that sentence made no sense.

I say it's our collective lack of effort. /or finding gamebreaking techs like making utilt kill at 2% and have the hitbox of FD.... without hacking
 

etecoon

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snake's aren't answering back because they don't have the tools to do so, just snake's inferiority showing

I mean it is also true that MK mains are harder working
, smarter, and better looking, but MK has better **** than snake to begin with
 

SuSa

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I think there are some areas left still unexplored... not to say they'd make a large impact against MK however. :(

MK has better **** than the entire cast..... <_< I fail to see the argument here.
 

Underload

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Havok's been doing stuff with Snake vs. Metaknight. Not a lot of 'collective' effort, but he's definitely mapped out a lot of stuff. This isn't even all the information he has on Snake vs. MK, there's actually more in the Snake vs. Metaknight matchup thread. Just look for his posts there for some more god tier info.

http://theelectricscribble.com/category/ssbb/ssbb-havok-solid-snake/ (his Smash blog, btw)
 

etecoon

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you know that obnoxious, obstructive BBR notice that appears at the top of every page now?

that should be replaced by a link to the electric scribble
</h4v0k fanboying></namesearch dodge>

lol I just noticed you can get rid of it, they hid it with black on black, THEY USED MY OWN TRICK AGAINST ME
 

SuSa

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Blog was interesting, agreed more Snakes need to crouch more. XD Also, sadly, a lot of the stuff he covered was basics and basic mistakes snake mains make. (Having 2 grenades going vs MK, when 1 should be in case of emergency. Not pulling nades when close, etc.)

Also your searchID doesn't work.
 

Attila_

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i thought i was good vs mk, but then m2k gave me the business on the weekend. if he's getting the most he can out of any mistake we make, the mu is just too hard. although hall (a san diego player) has very interesting strats against mk that we taught me and defs helped once i had a chance to practice them...
 

SuSa

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Havok should be the Vice-President of the Snake boards.

Except he's wrong on one thing.

Uptilt is better overall than Ftilt when MK runs at you since it's only ONE hit. If you can learn to time the ftilt correctly where only the tip of the knee hits, awesome, and if it's blocked walk away.
If the MK is running at you, down tilt. Slightly more range, doesn't stale your #1 kill move, and less end lag by like 3 frames (every frame counts...)

If you think the MK is going to jump and he's still at a % that you can freshen up Utilt, then you may want to go for the utilt.. except the knockback won't be much and the dtilt leaves you crouched and harder to it.

@shmot
I really want to see Hall again recently... I swear I wasn't amazed by what I've seen/played - but then again it's been like 9-10 months.. there should def. be improvement, and if he's from San Diego he has some good practice buds. I keep hearing his name more and more nowadays.
 

Savon

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Only because no Snake is doing jack **** about it, our playstyles are growing rusty and MK's are answering what used to bother them - but we aren't answering back. :confused:

Second thought, that sentence made no sense.

I say it's our collective lack of effort. /or finding gamebreaking techs like making utilt kill at 2% and have the hitbox of FD.... without hacking
I do not even think it is a lack of effort. Snake players do not want to evolve to fit the changing meta-game of brawl. With the absurd amount of tools Snake players have at their disposal there is no reason MK should be giving us the amount of trouble that he is.

I may not be a super respected pro/expert, but I think Snake players just need to be more unpredictable with our battle style. Snake is all about messing with your opponents head. We just need to bring more tricks to the table to do that.
 

Attila_

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hall is pretty amazing, or at least, extremely unique. in the first set he played with m2k, he took it to fifth game. that being said, he lost games to a few of australia's high ranking players also. he's most definitely underrated and needs more vids up.

main thing was cyphering straight up or even backwards, then using a fair, with recovering. this makes you significantly harder to gimp and chase. something simple that really helped a lot.
 

Underload

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I actually knew the one about cyphering straight up, but using fair? Kind of awesome.

If people don't know, it's nigh impossible for MK to get shuttle loop strings on you if you go directly up and use your FF speed to get onto the ledge / stage.
 

SuSa

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If it makes a difference, it may help a bit.

Also as far as getup attacks (specifically the 3 I mentioned) it could help us ever more in certain matchups if we don't even need to shied anymore.

That makes it 100% REACTION BASED to just rolls or a standup movement... makes them go from four options to three options which means even if you're guessing, 25% chance of guessing right to a 33% chance where 100% of the time you would be guarenteed some form of punishment. (Roll away = dash attack, stand up = regrab/dtilt/ftilt/dair/blah/anything, roll behind = ftilt

That makes a huge difference considering shielding + shielddropping can ruin an otherwise awesome tech chase... since it's hard to dash attack out of shield fast enough on reaction to actually hit the opponent.
 

etecoon

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you can dash past most characters and shield their get up attack to also cover the roll away option, but it's pretty weak vs just standing up lol
 

SuSa

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That's also pretty weak against rolling behind, unless their behind is the edge of the stage. It's not a solution.

I'm looking for a solution, even if it only works on a handful of the cast.
 

etecoon

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tech chasing on pure reaction isn't realistic, at least for most characters. being able to make a read and then adjust it to one or two other options if need be is about all you can do most of the time IMO
 

SuSa

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On reaction you can get 11 characters full. You start messing up when you try to read them instead of react. (From all my experiences at least...)

Also, you don't always have to go for the regrab. If crouch does dodge getup attacks, that removes that as a viable option. You have to watch one of three directions and just dash attack/ftilt or something... easy to do on reaction.

The only time tech chasing on pure reaction isn't realistic is during longer rolls when trying to regrab, extremely fast getup attacks, or you're unable to tell a normal getup from a roll/getup attack and react incorrectly.

Punishing them is easy stuff. Regrabbing is where the timing is strict and pure reaction isn't viable for all but 11 characters.
 

etecoon

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still just theorycraft/stuff people aren't actually doing in tournament, and I'll also add that your reaction time is VERY unusual, you claim to have dodged sub 10 frame attacks on reaction when even ally and M2K don't react that fast, what's possible for you isn't necessarily possible for other people
 

Attila_

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just looking at the hitbox for dtilt, it appears to cover most of snake while in prone. would that mean that you'd have a guaranteed dtilt near the ledge if you move back a little? if characters can't roll around the hitbox, you'd hit them no matter what they tried.
 
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I tested it on a few characters and noticed that it does nothing actually. If they buffer rolls towards you, then crouching does nothing they roll past you without any interference. Worse is that when crouching, you are now forced to endure a -4 frame advantage instead of a -1 frame advantage on rolls towards you. In that case, crouching is useless. I did not do it on the whole cast though. Nor did I test it on get-up attacks.
 

SuSa

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The away-towards attacks are easily dodgeable on reaction... the moment you see movement that isn't a roll you just shield... I'm also pretty **** sure all away-towards attacks are slower than 14 frames....

I was doing it in tournaments, especially against G&W's and TL's (if I ever got the grab.... **** Mojo's brother whom I forgets name...)

Why don't more people wait to react rather than read?

Nobody but me has memorized the **** dthrow thread that I made. I can't find anyone else who can even name 4 of the 11 characters we dthrow ****.

EDIT:
Okay, so it was just him imagining things? :s [Moving would be useless and you'd have to read it.. so not worth testing IMO]
If we can dodge getup attacks with it, a -4 frame advantage could very well be worth increasing your ability to punish.

What characters did you test? Did you try to vary it? (EG: Big chars vs small chars, long rolls vs short rolls)
 

etecoon

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I'm also pretty **** sure all away-towards attacks are slower than 14 frames....
they are but now you're getting into not just twitch reaction time but how long it takes one to differentiate different stimuli and make decisions based on it, which isn't really something that there is data on AFAIK

certain people may be able to do it, but I think for 95% or more of the community it's unrealistic


Nobody but me has memorized the **** dthrow thread that I made. I can't find anyone else who can even name 4 of the 11 characters we dthrow ****.
I could name more than 4, but I don't play snake anymore and my reaction time is **** so that information is useless to me anyway lol
 
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Without looking at the list and this is about as much as I can remember: TL, Link, fox, falco, wolf, G&W. Although, I do not count, I was the one that did that list in the first place lol But yes, I have not tried to memorize, and I cannot recall which I tested the towards rolls on for that crouching thing. I think I did it on MK as the natural first choice.
 

RATED

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The away-towards attacks are easily dodgeable on reaction... the moment you see movement that isn't a roll you just shield... I'm also pretty **** sure all away-towards attacks are slower than 14 frames....

I was doing it in tournaments, especially against G&W's and TL's (if I ever got the grab.... **** Mojo's brother whom I forgets name...)

Why don't more people wait to react rather than read?

Nobody but me has memorized the **** dthrow thread that I made. I can't find anyone else who can even name 4 of the 11 characters we dthrow ****.

EDIT:
Okay, so it was just him imagining things? :s [Moving would be useless and you'd have to read it.. so not worth testing IMO]
If we can dodge getup attacks with it, a -4 frame advantage could very well be worth increasing your ability to punish.

What characters did you test? Did you try to vary it? (EG: Big chars vs small chars, long rolls vs short rolls)
dude, stop acting like you are the only one that can tech chase seriously.

--------------------

I think that memorizing that is kinda awkward, is better to just get used to each of those in "real experience" by playing the matchup.
 

SuSa

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they are but now you're getting into not just twitch reaction time but how long it takes one to differentiate different stimuli and make decisions based on it, which isn't really something that there is data on AFAIK

certain people may be able to do it, but I think for 95% or more of the community it's unrealistic


I could name more than 4, but I don't play snake anymore and my reaction time is **** so that information is useless to me anyway lol
Again, most rolls/attacks are over 15 frames. You should be able to react to them.

I think a vast majority of the community could do it. My reaction time isn't uberly special, it's just above average on average. (That sounded a bit weird...)

I have a few moments where I'm far above average and fewer moments that I'm slower than average. So I'd say it's realistic for at least 40% of the community.

Without looking at the list and this is about as much as I can remember: TL, Link, fox, falco, wolf, G&W. Although, I do not count, I was the one that did that list in the first place lol But yes, I have not tried to memorize, and I cannot recall which I tested the towards rolls on for that crouching thing. I think I did it on MK as the natural first choice.
=P Yep. You don't count, you helped make the list and test it.

See - haven't put the effort in to learn the data. :laugh: At least you admit it.

=P Just MK isn't thourough testing.

*really doesn't want to have to hook up my wii*

I don't even want to do much more besides theorycraft and chat until I know if I'm getting back in the scene or not. =\

@RATED
And what happens when you face a character whom you lack that experience? Where do you delve in your memory to know how to react to the character? The data is useful, even if you don't get to use it for every character. Also I fully recognize that others can tech chase. But when I see someone try to read a G&W rather than just reacting, I die a little inside. I can understand a misreaction (contrary to popular belief, people are humans and make mistakes) but I see people already moving before *insert one of 11 characters here* even moves. This often makes it so they can't even get the next best possible followup because they get hit by a getup attack (that should have been avoidable) or they misread and the person rolled behind them or bleh. Big mistakes that shouldn't be happening but I still see very often.

I see that Ganon mains (on average) tech chase and followup better... they have a very similar chart, and a vast majority actually know the chart.

I agree that experience is better than simply knowing the data, especially because under pressure you may not recall the data. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother with the data.
 
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Reaction times are not 11 frames as people say. For things you are not prepared for, yes that fits. But with training the timing can be greatly reduced. I swear that whenever someone shields an aerial, they grab it in the middle of hitlag. Most hitlag frame data I have seen is around 6 frames. That cuts the reaction time in half.

I think the basics of that thread are pretty good. Unless you play a match-up a lot, I typically do not see anyone memorizing things about it quickly. It takes awhile to built up the training to know the correct distances for things. Knowing the basics before a match-up is pretty helpful. I mean, anytime I go into combat against DDD, I know that I can risk just sitting there doing knowing and instead simply wait for DDD to do something. When facing against Snake, I do not even bother to regrab the roll, I know it is virtually impossible. So instead, I go for a dash attack to punish. Those sorts of things help prep your mind and make it easier. At least, this is how I see it.

I do not have a wii, so I cannot test anything. Stupidest idea ever to not bring a TV and wii. I have so much time in college my freshman year.
 

SuSa

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@Xeylode
Shielding an aerial is the reaction, grabbing is just the second part of the reaction. That's just inputting a grab quickly after the shield. So that's not 6 frames, but closer to the speed of the aerial.

Also a certain level of prediction applies to your ability to react. If a character is rushing at you, you can predict they are going to dashgrab, dash attack, or jump and do an aerial, or none of the above. Your ability to react is then visual/sound based on what you know what each is. You react faster to visual/sound clues (IIRC my information correctly) than just light or just sound.

You can boost grab Snake, it's practically impossible on reaction though. You can get it if you read it and boost grab.. but I usually just dash attack/dacus (which is possible on reaction)

(practically) guarenteed on reaction > a possible read

A (practically) guarenteed ftilt > a possible regrab

By me saying there are those who don't know this data, I'm not saying they can't tech chase. I'm saying they are unprepared on matchups and instead of reacting they try reading which misses out on damage opportunities.

Ally is 100000000000x better than me at reading his opponents and I know it. Seeing him tech chase in matches is insane. Seeing him try to read a Wario instead of react made me want to cry, especially as he started misreading his opponent and missing punishes.

That's what I'm getting at....
 

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@RATED
And what happens when you face a character whom you lack that experience? Where do you delve in your memory to know how to react to the character? The data is useful, even if you don't get to use it for every character. Also I fully recognize that others can tech chase. But when I see someone try to read a G&W rather than just reacting, I die a little inside. I can understand a misreaction (contrary to popular belief, people are humans and make mistakes) but I see people already moving before *insert one of 11 characters here* even moves. This often makes it so they can't even get the next best possible followup because they get hit by a getup attack (that should have been avoidable) or they misread and the person rolled behind them or bleh. Big mistakes that shouldn't be happening but I still see very often.


I agree that experience is better than simply knowing the data, especially because under pressure you may not recall the data. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother with the data.
I didnt say that people have to ignore the data, I said that people don't have to memorize it fully like it was a bible. it can be used as a "OH I can recall that X character roll had this way of getup attack" when you don't know the MU. IMO knowing the data is like a baby step to get the real results. So is good. But the best way to learn those are by playing the matchup.
 
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Alright good, now we understand each other and avoided another stupid arguement that is always the basis of poor communication :D
 

SuSa

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I didnt say that people have to ignore the data, I said that people don't have to memorize it fully like it was a bible. it can be used as a "OH I can recall that X character roll had this way of getup attack" when you don't know the MU. IMO knowing the data is like a baby step to get the real results. So is good. But the best way to learn those are by playing the matchup.
Don't even have to memorize every detail. Make a few easy-to-remember groups or guidelines to help you remember.

Links (Toon Link, Link)
Spacies (Fox+Falco+Wolf)
Evil Mario (Wario+Yoshi)
G&W
Olimar
PT (Squirtle, Charizard.. Ivysaur isn't completely screwed but it's still bad..)

Wallah. Named the ones who get most screwed by our Dthrow by using a few keywords to help me remember.

I agree that knowing the matchup is by far a better replacement, but knowing this data or at least noticing it in match can be a life saver.

If you know that G&W has a poor roll, but can't remember which direction he attacks first when he gets up - take note that once the G&A does a getup attack, pay attention to the order. Was it towards-away or away-towards? This can help your judgement the next time you dthrow.

However I find it easier to just know the data, rather than remember to remember a small detail like that in a match. Some people may find it easier to learn the first time in a match, but sometimes the first time is a time to late.
 

napZzz

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Only because no Snake is doing jack **** about it, our playstyles are growing rusty and MK's are answering what used to bother them - but we aren't answering back. :confused:

Second thought, that sentence made no sense.

I say it's our collective lack of effort. /or finding gamebreaking techs like making utilt kill at 2% and have the hitbox of FD.... without hacking
I like the general concept of this thread and I'll try to post something useful in it later. You cant disappear for over a year then come back and say something like that honestly...but w/e
 
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