• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Metaknight & frame data (#5)

SuSa

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
Need to add dash attack, and I guess glide attack, Side-B, and Tornado. :laugh:

I NEED HELP WITH META KNIGHTS AERIALS

Please note:
Grenades take 17 frames to pull OoS to pull the grenade pin.
It takes 24 frames to have control, and your fastest option from there is a grab which takes an additional 8 frames for a total of 32 frames.

Pulling a grenade as a punish just isn't smart. Pull your grenades beforehand or after your attack.



NOTES:

~Unconfirmed~
Shield Dropping takes 7 frames.
OoS Usmash is ___ frames (range of a powershield) then the startup of Usmash.
OoS aerials are ___ frames (range of a powershield) + number of frames to jump + number of frames to perform aerial

~Confirmed~
Our Jump is 9 Frames, not 11 Frames.


SFD:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258332

MKFD:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
Click to expand...
QUICK REFERENCING

Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 Frames from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS

Fastest Options in order:
Grab
Jab
Ftilt, OoS Usmash
OoS Dair
Dtilt, Utilt
Dash Attack
Click to expand...
Meta Knight

Defending against Meta Knight's Attacks

Ftilt

Meta Knight's Frame Data

1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
Soonest IASA frame: 41
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits

1st attack shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -12

2nd and 3rd attacks shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23


This move is stupid broken due to how the attacks can be delayed. Your best option is to retreat.


Dtilt

Meta Knight's Frame Data
DTILT
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown

frame summary:
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4


Snake's possible options:

Shielded on hitbox frame 1:
Jab [7 frames of shield drop, 3 frames to commit to attack - leaves MK at -1 frame advantage. Impossible to shield]
Grab [0 frames of shield drop, 8 frames to commit to grab - leaves MK at -3 frame advantage]

Shielded on hitbox frame 2:
Grab [0 frames of shield drop, 8 frames to commit to grab - leaves MK at -2 frame advantage]



Risky Options:

Ftilt - The MK has a 1-2 frame window to shield. [If they buffer a shield, you will be powershielded and punished]
OoS Usmash - The MK has a 1-2 frame window to shield. [See above]



Utilt

Meta Knight's Frame Data

1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown

frame summary:
shield advantage: -25
shield drop advantage: -18


Snake's Options

Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 FrameS from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS



Fsmash

Meta Knight's Frame Data

frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown

frame summary:
Shield advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5


Snake's Options

OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS


It is advised you retreat until close enough to hit with Usmash or Grab Meta Knight.


Dsmash

Meta Knight Frame Data

frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown

frame summary:
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13

Front Hit Options

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
OoS Dair
OoS Usmash


Back Hit Options

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
OoS Usmash
OoS Dair



Usmash


frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown

frame summary:
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24


Snake's Options

Jab | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 3 Frames to commit = 10 frames OoPS
Ftilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 4 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
Dtilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
Utilt | 7 Frames Shield Drop + 6 Frames to commit = 13 frames OoPS
OoS Usmash | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 11 Frames to commit = 11 Frames OoPS
OoS Dair | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 9 Frames to jump + 3 frames to commit = 12 frames OoPS
Grab | 0 Frames Shield Drop + 8 frames to commit to grab = 8 Frames OoPS
Dash attack | 7 Frames from Shield Drop + 1-3 Frames from dash + 5 Frames to commit = 13-15 Frames OoPS


Because there are only 3-4 frames between each hit of Meta Knight's Up smash, be sure to only react upon shielding the final hit. You should have plenty of time to punish this move, which is why you won't see it used often.


Up-B

Meta Knight's Frame Data
GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32


AERIAL SHUTTLE LOOP
frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-14 strong hitbox out
15-36 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38


Snake's Options



Down-B

Meta Knight's Frame Data

frame breakdown:
1-17
18-26 invincibility frames
27-54 cooldown

frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:9

notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14


Snake's Options



Nair

Meta Knight's Frame Data

NAIR
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25
Shield hitlag differential strong hit: 0
Shield hitlag differential weak hit: -1
Shield stun strong hit: 4
Shield stun weak hit: 1
Optimal shield advantage strong hit: -11
Optimal shield drop advantage strong hit: -4
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -15
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -8
*Optimal shield advantage weak hit autocanceled: -2
*Optimal shield shield drop advantage weak hit autocanceled: +5


Snake's Options

Until someone can make sense of this frame data for me and tell me if we powershield the strong hitbox - if the weak hitbox will still hurt us (or do we need to shield that as well?) and if it's safe to unshield anytime after powershielding this move. I cannot answer if we can punish it or not.


Fair
Meta Knight's Frame Data

frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 22
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -9
Optimal shield drop advantage: -2


Snake's Options





Bair
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 33
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6


Snake's Options




Dair
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11


Snake's Options




Uair?
Meta Knight's Frame Data
frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3


Snake's Options





Attacking Meta Knight's Defense


Spot Dodge

Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20

This is obvious with most smash characters... try to hit them before they actually get out of their spot dodge completely.


Back Roll

Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12

Meta Knight's back roll is one of the worst in the game! If you find MK retreating with a back roll, ABUSE THE HELL OUT OF IT. Do a Dacus, throw a grenade at him, dash attack, ftilt, DO SOMETHING!


Front Roll

Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12

Unlike his horrible back roll, his front roll isn't nearly as bad. You can still punish him pretty badly for rolling though, that's a given.


Air Dodge

Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28

Like most air dodges, try to get him before he completely comes out of it. You have 11 frames of room before he can even retaliate. So get in that free Uair/bair if possible.





I'm insane.
 
napZzz

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,294
Location
cg, MN
haha welcome to 2010 SuSa

Good thread, I'll make sure I keep up on this
 
SuSa

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
If anyone just wants to plug in numbers, I made a quick reference sheet.

Just take MK's shield drop frame advantage and Mk's shield frame advantages and plug in the numbers.

I created a reference chart so all you have to do is simple subtraction... just make sure to subtract shield drop from shield correctly.
 
SuSa

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
I lied, for the most part I'm finished. Assuming my data is correct (Oh Yoshiiiii)....

I don't think it is, just looking at some of our options. It seems we have way more than we should have...

EDIT:
This data hints that we can Up tilt a powershielded dair if it's within range.... that just seems... so wrong..

EDIT 2:
But it appears Meta Knight has a 2 frame window to airdodge if we OoS Uair against his dair... this leads me to think the data I have is correct.... (22 frames, MK's dair lag + airdodge is 20 frames, invincibile on frame 21)

EDIT 3:
I forgot to add frames here and there (EG: Hitbox is frames 3-4, I did my math from 4 when I assumed shield on 3)) Considering most of these are assuming frame perfection, I should update this. I'll probably do that tomorrow, 1 frame in a frame perfect scenario honestlly won't realistically effect us...
 
SuSa

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
shmot said:
Hang on, does that mean sl doesn't have invincibility in the air?
Click to expand...
Yea.

Eternal Yoshi said:
This thread should save you time:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
Click to expand...
What do you mean? And you realize I put that in the OP.... right?

berserker01 said:
Nice stuff Susa.

Love how you tease MK's F-tilt
Click to expand...
MK's ftilt is stupid... it can be delayed, so any attempt to punish can be used to punish you by just going on to ftilt2... then 3.... it's ****ing stupid.

However if the MK uses it up until 3, I guess I could provide the data on it and if we could punish it then.

ErikG said:
I'm pretty sure only grounded SL has invincibility.
Click to expand...
Truth.
 
napZzz

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,294
Location
cg, MN
mk's tilts are faster and have more range than snakes. Along with the advantage in cooldown and the ability to delay/abuse

=(
 
SuSa

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
That's only ftilt, dtilt and utilt cannot be delayed. If you powershield dtilt, you can punish unless they spaced it perfectly.

If they did space it perfectly, you could risk dtilting/utiling them back or unshielding and walking away.

MK's tilts are faster, and only dtilt really outranges us.
 
napZzz

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,294
Location
cg, MN
ftilt has more range, check the hitbox

I know dtilt cant be delayed but its so fast it doesn't need it lol
 
SuSa

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino


Important update:

Our jump is 9 frames not 11 frames, our OoS is faster than what is shown.

This sucks though:

We have the slowest jump in the game.... Bowser is 2nd slowest with an 8 frame startup.

What wins:
OoS utilt/dtilt are inferior to dair in terms of speed... by a frame...
 
E

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
you can do it but it's kinda pointless, they can still hit you without setting off the grenade by attacking your feet and if they're in shield range they can probably just grab you anyway
 
S

ShardFenix

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
25
SuSa said:
Grenades take 17 frames to pull OoS to pull the grenade pin.
Click to expand...
What mod are you using? Grenades come out 1 frame after pressing B in vanilla.

Also, lol @ a snake main claiming other characters have ******** fTilts.
 
SuSa

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
I haven't updated this yet, and you're misunderstanding my point.

It's 1 frame to pull, but we cannot do anything with it at that point. We have to be hit for it to "come out" which is the issue. Our goal is to avoid being hit if possible. We have to wait a while before we're able to do anything after pulling the grenade. (Ever wonder why you can't pull a grenade and grab 1 frame later?)

Our tilts are punishable on powershield by a large majority of the cast. This is why Snake's sort of dropping out of the #2 spot buddy, people are starting to finally learn to punish us.

:093:
get owned
 
E

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
most attacks are punishable on powershield, snake's are punishable on regular shields which is the real problem(that and they are HORRID on whiff)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom