Match-Up Discussion: Mr. Game and Watch

Meru. · Oct 14, 2010

A little bit late, but better late than never! :cool:

Mr. Game and Watch

Discuss.

Eddie G · Oct 14, 2010

Jab/grab OoS in between his 5th-6th (?) hit if he bairs your shield, time a roll/spotdodge as a defensive alternative.

Peach's dash attack hitboxes creep underneath his bair if he retreats with it.

U-tilt beats his dair. Dash to pivot grab as an alternative.

If you float right alongside him as he uses a grounded up B, Peach will maintain her float and rise with GnW, creating a possibility to punish via fair/bair.

Praxis can handle the rest. He put me on the right track with this matchup a while back.

¿Qué? · Oct 14, 2010

KBizzle said:
Jab/grab OoS in between his 5th-6th (?) hit if he bairs your shield, time a roll/spotdodge as a defensive alternative.

Peach's dash attack hitboxes creep underneath his bair if he retreats with it.

U-tilt beats his dair. Dash to pivot grab as an alternative.

If you float right alongside him as he uses a grounded up B, Peach will maintain her float and rise with GnW, creating a possibility to punish via fair/bair.

Praxis can handle the rest. He put me on the right track with this matchup a while back.

I'm pretty sure it's the 5th hit of his Bair. Still, G&W Bair doesn't suck.

I hate when other people underrate it.

I lul'd when I tried Dtilt- Grab. It looks so stupid. XD!

Praxis · Oct 14, 2010

G&W bair is terrible, you can just move away from it in the air and hit after it, or dash attack it if he's retreating. Seriously, once you learn to deal with it, it can only ever hit you offstage unless you're playing off.

Bair is really bad, but takes a lot of experience to deal with on reaction.

Eddie G · Oct 14, 2010

^ Pretty much. Oh I remember the days when I used to overrate that awful attack, lol.

Just handily beat a GnW with a 1900+ score on the ladder too, go figure.

Praxis · Oct 14, 2010

Also, dair on shield is punishable by jab OOS on reaction once you learn the timing.

The key to playing this matchup is avoiding guessing game situations, because guessing game situations are much better for him. Always pick the safest option out of situations, and he'll never be able to land a smash on you; his smashes hit based on reads, not punishment reaction. So you need to not engage in guessing games that could result in a hit from a smash.

Also, make sure you can tech dthrow every time, and punish dair and bair on shield on reaction, and know the timing to dash attack/fair/bair through his dair.

G&W wins this matchup just because it takes soooo much focus on the Peach's part, but it's not horrible by any means.

When G&W is in the air above you, you're winning. He has no reliable way to return to the ground that you can't punish OOS or with a dash attack. When he's grounded, throw turnips at him and react to his approach.

Praxis · Oct 14, 2010

KBizzle said:
^ Pretty much. Oh I remember the days when I used to overrate that awful attack, lol.

Just handily beat a GnW with a 1900+ score on the ladder too, go figure.

G&W still makes me nervous on WiFi because of lag D: but I still enjoy it.

I almost never ever play wifi though, haha.

Razmakazi · Oct 14, 2010

i just hate being under him. it gets pretty hard to deal w/ him waving his priority and aerial mobility in my face. liiike u can't uair him and i can't just throw out utilt coz they keep trying to bait it. At any rate i find it dumb to run around camping and ****** the whole time and then getting clipped w/ any tiny hit into a juggle. i can sdi nair/bair or whatever but it's still dumbness.

Diabolique · Oct 14, 2010

I don't like this guy at all

Which way do you get out of his Nair? I try up but nothing seems to happen

Whenever I play a Game and Watch and try to space a Fair on him, it seems like his Dtilt beats it and it is very annoying, is this true or is it just speed differences?

Oh, and what's the best way to gimp him? or is that just a lost cause? I throw turnips at his UpB but they just seem to get cancelled out.

Razmakazi · Oct 14, 2010

diabolique. w/ nair just SDI out. just go whichever way you want.

and w/ fair it's coooz dtilt has a lot of horizontal and veeeeertical range. that's why fair won't ever work against it.

and idk about gimping. he has like 1 frame of vulnerability at the end of his up b but his sweetspot to the ledge is oooooooooomgwtf huge so there's no way you're actually going to beat it head-on. ya prob can from the side though and even then it's just 1 frame at that.

LanceStern · Oct 14, 2010

I don't understand how you guys say jab/grab OOS against his bair. the only G&Ws I play are those who RETREAT their bair and autocancel it and start jumping away again. Jab can't reach them. Maybe instant dash attack.

I think it's really off to say his bair is BAD when it's probably one of the best bairs in the game. That's like a diddy kong/shiek main saying MK's tornado is a terrible move because their projectile wrecks it everytime. Just because you handle it well doesn't mean it's a terrible move.

Praxis, you make it sound like we destroy him ("**** his terrible bair lol", "if he's above you, you're winning", "just do this OOS everytime, it's safe", "just sdi every multihitting aerial", "on the ground, just camp") but then you say it's a winning matchup for him? How does he win? How does he even get damage on us with the things you're saying we can avoid

z00ted · Oct 14, 2010

because Praxis is overating this matchup.

like someone always does in the matchup discussions.

Eddie G · Oct 14, 2010

Guys...Praxis has beaten just about every good GnW out there for a reason. It's only justifiable to get on someone's nuts about supposedly overrating a matchup if they haven't already proven their point through gameplay.

I'm sorry to be so d@mn blunt on this topic but if you're taking excessive damage or being zoned out from the things that have already been explained as punishable upon reaction, you're simply doing it wrong. His bair is mediocre at best (in this matchup).

Lance we said to jab/grab OoS if GnW decides to shield pressure with bair as an approach. It's not often done by the GnWs anymore but it's far from being an abandoned tactic.

z00ted · Oct 14, 2010

I've only gotten the chance to play one pro Game and Watch (Zac) a couple of times, so I can't really contribute alot to this matchup.

A grounded Peach dominates this matchup though.

Xyless · Oct 14, 2010

If I remember correctly, if you tech roll his dthrow, you can beat a chasing usmash with a well-buffered turn around jab. I don't know about if he chases with his dash attack, though.

Queen B. Kyon · Oct 15, 2010

Illmatic. said:
because Praxis is overating this matchup.

like someone always does in the matchup discussions.

Illmatic being himself right here. Even though you overate a lot of things yourself XD.

I find shutter step Fsmash very useful in this mu and I always find myself killing him with fair. Don't challenge his nair and I find his uair rather irritating. Turnips are very useful but its more than just chucking them at him. Try to use a bit of mix up's. I avoid Delfino Plaza playing him now. Rather go to brinstar if they choose it.

Praxis · Oct 15, 2010

Xyless said:
If I remember correctly, if you tech roll his dthrow, you can beat a chasing usmash with a well-buffered turn around jab. I don't know about if he chases with his dash attack, though.

You can beat usmash and dash attack with shield, and grab with jab.

Illmatic. said:
because Praxis is overating this matchup.

like someone always does in the matchup discussions.

Simplify =/= overrating.

I admit that I simplify matchups (Wario == Bair him) when I discuss them. I don't overrate.

I've focused on the things Peach has over G&W, but I still conclude G&W has the advantage. I'm not going to write a guide as to how G&W is supposed to fight Peach, because I know things he has on her very very few people do.

A grounded Peach dominates this matchup though.

Very much so.

Illmatic. said:
I've only gotten the chance to play one pro Game and Watch (Zac) a couple of times, so I can't really contribute alot to this matchup.

I herd a Link from warshington tuk u 2 last stock nub

LanceStern said:
I don't understand how you guys say jab/grab OOS against his bair. the only G&Ws I play are those who RETREAT their bair and autocancel it and start jumping away again. Jab can't reach them. Maybe instant dash attack.

Bair goes inactive before it hits the ground, just dash attack through it >_> Retreating bair is horrible. Just like any other usage of it that isn't offstage.

I think it's really off to say his bair is BAD when it's probably one of the best bairs in the game. That's like a diddy kong/shiek main saying MK's tornado is a terrible move because their projectile wrecks it everytime. Just because you handle it well doesn't mean it's a terrible move.

Peach's bair is way better.

Praxis, you make it sound like we destroy him ("**** his terrible bair lol", "if he's above you, you're winning", "just do this OOS everytime, it's safe", "just sdi every multihitting aerial", "on the ground, just camp") but then you say it's a winning matchup for him? How does he win? How does he even get damage on us with the things you're saying we can avoid

He wins because Peach can't kill and if you screw up you die at 60-70%, and his uair gives Peach a lot of trouble. He gets damage with grab, dtilt and nair, and will land more grabs because the Peach should abuse the crap out of shield (especially since G&W has a terrible grab range lol).

Peach's flaws, G&W's recovery, and the fact that he ******* her on his CP (you can't ban both Rainbow and Brinstar) and should always win there make it in his favor IMO, but it's still a very, very comfortable matchup for me.

Meru. · Oct 15, 2010

Honestly...

I disagree with it being GW's favor, so in that regard I'm even worse than Praxis @_@.

And Brinstar isn't baaaaaad. That might be my love for Brinstar though.

Illmatic. said:
because Praxis is overating this matchup.

like someone always does in the matchup discussions.

It's very funny you always say this yet your contributions are always minimal, whereas Praxis actually has given valuable tips.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Oct 17, 2010

Oh my GOODNESS GRACIOUS G&W IS IN THE AIR ARRGGGH WHAT DO I DO VS THIS AERIAL MONSTER ARRRGGGHHHohwait that's right *shield*

Abuse the crap out of Peach's OoS opitions and for goodness sake don't challenge his F Smash especially if he's blatantly charging it up

If you get caught in his Bair, DI/SDI either away or diagonally above him and Bair him if you're feeling brave

Oh and Bucket Braking is really stupid

....
Praxis sort of covered the most useful things here

z00ted · Oct 17, 2010

Yaaay said:
It's very funny you always say this yet your contributions are always minimal, whereas Praxis actually has given valuable tips.
[/COLOR]

lol...
woop dee freaking doo, Illmatic says one little thing that is mainly true (?) and everyone starts bashing on him and making false accusations.

I don't know THAT much about this matchup, therefore I'm not going to add alot of my thoughts on it. My contributions are anything but minimal on this site, all you do is ****ing open up threads. I never see you post anything.

*****.

Pharaoh.DsY Kyon said:
Illmatic being himself right here. Even though you overate a lot of things yourself XD.

Alright, cool I agree with the first statement. What do I overate, though?

Queen B. Kyon · Oct 17, 2010

ill calm down sweetface lol. We both know you don't give too much info on things. Lets not over do anything in this thread k?

z00ted · Oct 17, 2010

Helping Out On The Peach Guide: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....7&postcount=82

Peach vs Metaknight matchup: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....95&postcount=3

Peach vs Snake matchup: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....9&postcount=14

Peach vs Falco matchup: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....6&postcount=11

Peach on Brinstar: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....&postcount=188

not to mention other posts that I couldn't find.

Besides seeing a few people on these boards, I have to say it's not helping me in any way. I'm done here - hope to see Nicole, Raz, King Beef, C Spyker, and PeachGuard at MLG Dallas.

Peace.

Eddie G · Oct 17, 2010

^ I'm getting to that point myself, Ill.

Nowadays it's about 10% tactical development, 90% social/random/nobody-gives-a-**** nonsense, and all

* And to those who are expecting me to continue hosting chats, I apologize for the huge delay. I've been focused on getting settled in to this new job and an office environment is totally new to me. Once I get things rolling with that, I'll be back on top with the chat sessions. Thanks for not giving me a hard time about it.

z00ted · Oct 17, 2010

Well, I have to step up and say I sorta derailed this thread and it was on the right direction. But other than this thread, everything else is kaka boo boo.

the pic gets better every time btw.

Let me rephrase myself.

I won't be here to keep up with everyone's little facebook social discussion thread.

Whenever someone decides to post something that adheres to the Peach metagame I may pop in to post something here or there.

I'm going to be on that Raz, Metatian, and Praxis status.

These boards just arent helping me at all anymore, I know what to do. I just have to learn higher level playstyles, better reads, etc etc.

Meru. · Oct 17, 2010

Illmatic. said:
lol...
woop dee freaking doo, Illmatic says one little thing that is mainly true (?) and everyone starts bashing on him and making false accusations.

I don't know THAT much about this matchup, therefore I'm not going to add alot of my thoughts on it. My contributions are anything but minimal on this site, all you do is ****ing open up threads. I never see you post anything.

*****.

LOL way to take things waaaaay too personal, take a chill pill or something.

But poooor girl. You say one thing and everyone attacks you... awww.... well.... maybe that has a reason, seeing your average post is "Hi I'm Illmatic I'm the biggest fanboy of myself, you overrate this match-up, you do that hahahahahahaha, I play X, listen to me, Peach boards are pretty dumb, I'm amazing, give me attention

". It's always the same with you.

Your input is minimal, but you still have the balls to criticize everyone else. If you don't have anything to say, THEN DON'T.

And it wasn't mainly true, seeing Praxis actually said that GW still has the favor, so I doubt he's overrating the match-up. Apparently, you didnt really care why, else you would have posted something like this:

LanceStern said:
Praxis, you make it sound like we destroy him ("**** his terrible bair lol", "if he's above you, you're winning", "just do this OOS everytime, it's safe", "just sdi every multihitting aerial", "on the ground, just camp") but then you say it's a winning matchup for him? How does he win? How does he even get damage on us with the things you're saying we can avoid

instead of 'lol Praxis is overrating just like everyone else anyway'. As if you do that much yourself.

And your links dont work.

If you wanna ***** more, VM, I'd like this to go back to GW. Inviting them btw.

z00ted · Oct 17, 2010

Helping Out On The Peach Guide: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11343987&postcount=82

Peach vs Metaknight matchup: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10825795&postcount=3

Peach vs Snake matchup: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11070509&postcount=14

Peach vs Falco matchup: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11240736&postcount=11

Peach on Brinstar: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11129486&postcount=188

PentaSalia · Oct 17, 2010

Peach boards are so dramatic lol.

edit: the only peach exp i have his D Pch, but even he admits he doesn't know the MU well so bleh.

Vinnie may have more input on this since he's actually played praxis and plays peach himself lol.
Uair ***** this match up tho=o.

It's G&W's favor but definitely doable if you know your stuff.

45/55 4/6 on brinstar/rc?

Airgemini · Oct 17, 2010

People, calm down.
Everyone here has contributed in some way or another. As minimal as the contributions may be, everyone does. Hell, responding in this thread with your input of the match-up is contributing.

And Ill's contributions aren't minimal. Even if he doesn't contribute with posting (which I'm not saying) he contributes with results. Everyone contributes in their own way and to get on someone because they might not be contributing to your standards is stupid and childish. This board is ridiculous at times.

Please, just discuss GaW. Consider this everyone's warning. /:

Lord Chair · Oct 17, 2010

Intrigue, intrigue, oh how much I love thee.

Just hangin' here to stress what Praxis said earlier about always being able to prevent smashes from hitting you. When you do get hit by one of them it's either because of your opponent making an awesome read or because of you just doing silly things. It's usually the latter, contemplate the situations in which you get hit by his smashes and figure what you specifically did wrong, because usually it's something you can work on.

A2ZOMG · Oct 17, 2010

G&W's F-air is a lot better than Peach's F-air, and N-air, D-tilt, and Up-B means that Peach has to be very careful when spacing against him. That's why he wins the matchup. Oh yeah he DOES also juggle better than Peach, but he does against everyone basically, point is G&W has better spacing tools in the moves I mentioned.

And if the G&W is smart, he's gonna realize that fullhopping B-air is actually quite useful as well as edgeguarding with it. It's worth knowing that after a fullhop B-air, if he buffers N-air and you get hit by the third hit of his N-air, it WILL combo you into D-smash if he spaces it correctly. Not that it will happen often, but I'm just saying.

deepseadiva · Oct 17, 2010

A2 reminds me.

From playing Dave, basically Zac's apprentice, don't underestimate his fair. If he's not landing his smashes he's going to nail you with a fair which kills very decently. Especially if all your doing is focusing on not getting hit by smashes.

Lord Chair · Oct 17, 2010

G&W's fair is definitely worse than Peach'. G&W's is (obviously) faster, but still rather slow (frame 10), too slow to effectively beat out Peach' fair.

¿Qué? · Oct 17, 2010

Well, if G&W's Bair is so bad, then I don't really think that he'll be using it. A good G&W, anyway. If anything, they'd only use Bair to punish so don't count on countering the Bair OoS. That can end up screwing up a match for you if you keep waiting for it.

Eddie G · Oct 17, 2010

Not to mention the insane opening left over if he misspaces or misses a sh fair.

Just avoid being in air against him at mid range where fair is a viable option for him from a standing or OoS position. Peach is better off on the ground in that scenario turnip camping and playing a safe, reactionary OoS game.

Only take to the air against his shield if she is at close range at a 45 degree angle but not directly over him. She can space retreating dairs (a la DDD matchup), avoid his most dangerous OoS options with her double jump, and still be out of range for him to sweetspot his fair.

Worst case scenario in this position is getting clipped by up B if you misspace, getting clipped/caught in a juggle by his nair if you mistime your double jump. All things considered, he certainly has more OoS options at this range than what is mentioned, but I've found them to be rather unlikely or frequently unsuccessful.

This may seem bold, but I believe this matchup to be 50/50 and 40/60 GnW on Rainbow Cruise exclusively.

@ Peachguard- It's a mistake to not consider all of your own or another character's options. GnWs will use bair. Some not as frequently and some not in the same ways, but at that point it all comes down to individual conditioning and reading your opponent's habits. What's he going to do...fair Peach's shield? Run in for a grab? Try to come from above with dair? Approach with nair? You never know, but Peach certainly has the options to stuff any one of those tactics, which makes shielding that much better against him. She may also have the tools to stuff his bair in any way he uses it with correct timing, but it's still one of his safer options in comparison the the rest. Just look at it that way.

Meru. · Oct 17, 2010

KBizzle said:
This may seem bold, but I believe this matchup to be 50/50 and 40/60 GnW on Rainbow Cruise exclusively.

I agree with that, actually.

Also, I haven't seen anyone talking about turnips. They seem to work very well vs him.

Oh, and this may sound stupid, but give GW as little as time to bucket brake, eg by aiming your kill moves into the right direction (so don't aim for the left blastzone if you are at the right ledge). He will die at shockingly low %s, since he is quite light.

¿Qué? · Oct 17, 2010

KBizzle said:
Not to mention the insane opening left over if he misspaces or misses a sh fair.

Just avoid being in air against him at mid range where fair is a viable option for him from a standing or OoS position. Peach is better off on the ground in that scenario turnip camping and playing a safe, reactionary OoS game.

Only take to the air against his shield if she is at close range at a 45 degree angle but not directly over him. She can space retreating dairs (a la DDD matchup), avoid his most dangerous OoS options with her double jump, and still be out of range for him to sweetspot his fair.

Worst case scenario in this position is getting clipped by up B if you misspace, getting clipped/caught in a juggle by his nair if you mistime your double jump. All things considered, he certainly has more OoS options at this range than what is mentioned, but I've found them to be rather unlikely or frequently unsuccessful.

This may seem bold, but I believe this matchup to be 50/50 and 40/60 GnW on Rainbow Cruise exclusively.

@ Peachguard- It's a mistake to not consider all of your own or another character's options. GnWs will use bair. Some not as frequently and some not in the same ways, but at that point it all comes down to individual conditioning and reading your opponent's habits. What's he going to do...fair Peach's shield? Run in for a grab? Try to come from above with dair? Approach with nair? You never know, but Peach certainly has the options to stuff any one of those tactics, which makes shielding that much better against him. She may also have the tools to stuff his bair in any way he uses it with correct timing, but it's still one of his safer options in comparison the the rest. Just look at it that way.

XD True. Sorry I wanted to give some input, but I definitely didn't mean it like that. I had to leave for church.

What I do feel is after a while if you constantly keep punishing Bair the same way, they'll think twice about using it.

I would say that his Bair would be something to fear if both of you were in the air. :f

Am I right? I've never fought a G&W. :f

A2ZOMG · Oct 17, 2010

Guys, you don't seem to understand how G&W's F-air works.

He just pokes you with it since he can just blatantly fullhop it and get away with it easily since it's hard to whiff punish due to it's huge lingering duration and low aerial cooldown, and because most importantly it threatens you while you're standing or of course if you're jumping as well. Peach's F-air isn't a real poke, but a supplementary pressure or punisher that has the added benefit of being safe on block via proper autocanceling. It's a GOOD MOVE, but it's actual applications for DAMAGING PEOPLE with it are much more limited.

Plus, I want more G&W users besides myself to do this, but G&W is actually able to do a Second Jump Renewal after a perfect ledgehop F-air (or he can just opt to land completely laglessly and possibly set up a tic throw by tapping you with the weak hit and then grabbing you). It's honestly not that hard to do, but for some reason Zac and the others don't seem to get how the input works.

That being said, G&W's F-air is easily a much more practical move, and thus better than Peach's F-air. Peach's F-air either has to be comboed into, used in edgeguards, or used for punishing mistakes in order to actually hit. G&W's will just randomly hit you out of nowhere because it's fast, and he can get away with it a lot more than you may expect.

The way I see this matchup, it's not that hard for G&W to approach Peach, since none of her forward options can really directly go toe to toe with G&W's offenses. Offensively she can do some cool stuff if she gets started (minus the fact G&W gets out of traps more easily than she does), but it's harder for her to start up a well spaced approach in the first place since her comfort zone is a zone that G&W covers very well.

If your opponent is not using fullhop F-air more than B-air, they need a quick slap in the face. Yes that's partly a pun. But I'm quite serious. Fullhop F-air is quite frankly too good, and it's very effective in this matchup as well.

Eddie G · Oct 17, 2010

I would agree, but frankly I do not approach in this matchup without a proper opening or lead-in, even if I happened to be behind; I'd settle for chip damage from turnips and cautious poke attempts. So far I've managed to snatch the lead against all GnWs that I've played and immediately switch to defensive and reactionary play. Therein lies his glaring fault in this matchup.

He can kill well, has decent setups/strings/damage dealing potential off of his nair/grab/any potential juggle, but he is absolutely horrible against any character with a reliable and quick OoS option/s and (in Peach's case) a dash attack that can actually punish his retreating bair. So in essence, his approach and shield pressure games are both what I'd like to call "selectively strong" depending on the matchup he fights. I personally find it not as threatening to Peach and her quick and versatile OoS game.

A2ZOMG · Oct 17, 2010

And you completely failed to address how Peach actually deals with G&W's F-air. Her options for punishing G&W's fullhop F-air are really limited especially without a powershield. Given that, G&W can basically poke her all day with it and he doesn't risk all that much since it beats basically every legit poke she has and it basically outdamages every move she does.

I'd highly advise you to stop making G&W's SH B-air a part of the equation, because only bad G&W players use it as their primary spacing tool. I should also add that Praxis's old video about G&W's B-air doesn't even correctly demonstrate how the move actually is supposed to be used.

Of course, I am implying that G&W's F-air will be stale in this matchup, but if he can start up a juggle and U-air Peach a lot, which honestly is not that hard considering her low fall speed and terrible airdodge, that should be a much more minor issue.

Eddie G · Oct 18, 2010

I obviously didn't address it because it's not a major issue. The most he can do after a sh fair is...lag. The most productive offensive (strictly speaking) options he has off of a full jump fair is to try to position for a dair, nair, a retreating/falling fair, or a landing mixup to grab. What else could he utilize fair for other than to kill us early by surprise or offstage? Hit our shields? Attempt to connect with the early portion of a full jump fair only to deal with, again, our shield or a possible u-tilt from below? Have you ever heard of attacks you don't try to punish outright? They exist.

I highly advise you don't look too far into simple matters, friend. I'm not ignorant to your notorious habit of outlandish theory-craft in place of more realistic considerations. Unless, that is, you have relevant and notable experience with the topic of discussion that I am unaware of.

Match-Up Discussion: Mr. Game and Watch

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