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Exclusive Snake Technique

Corpsecreate

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So I discovered a new technique or strategy that not enough Snake players employ into their play. I first started using about 6 months ago and now I think its time we all start using it. Theres more than 1 variation of this technique each with similar but different effects.

Method 1: D-Smash, Grenade Drop, Roll Dodge/Jump Away - Stales Mine x1
Method 2: Grenade Drop, D-Smash, Grenade Drop, Roll Dodge/Jump Away- Stales Grenade x2
Method 3: Grenade Drop, SH, C4 Drop, Second Jump, C4 Detonate - Stales C4 x1
Method 4: D-smash, Hit Mine with Nikita - Stales Mine x1 AND Nikita x1
Method 5: D-Smash, Fsmash on Mine - Stales Fsmash x1
Method 6: Dsmash, SH, C4 Drop, Second Jump, C4 Detonate - Stales C4 x1
Method 7: C4 Drop, Grenade Drop, Dsmash, Jump, C4 Detonate - Stales C4 x1 AND Grenade x1
Method 8: Grenade Drop, Grenade Drop, Run Away/Shield - Stales Grenade x1

Why would you ever do this? Well its simple. What this is doing is you are controlling what attacks you stale and refresh. For example, using method 1 you will stale your D-Smash while refreshing all your other moves. Using method 2, you will stale your grenade 2x and refresh all your other moves twice and with method 3 you stale your C4.

Now some people might think that its not all that useful, but I tested the diminishing returns extensively and ended up finding out that each successive staling of a move reduces the damage and knockback of that move by roughly 10%. You know those times where you U-tilt and they allllllmoooost die? Well, had you refreshed your attacks 1 minute earlier, your ftilt may have done that extra 2% damage that enabled your u-tilt to finish them off. Lets not forget also that if your U-tilt was already once staled when it allllllmoooost killed, it would now be even more fresh and would surely do the job. Every damage % counts and the ability to control what moves are staled is tremendously useful.

Pros/Cons of each method:

Method 1: Stales D-Smash. D-Smash is generally a pretty useless move against most enemies and so is the most desirable move to stale. It is relatively fast to perform this method and two can be performed after a Star KO and one after a horizontal KO.

Method 2: Stales Grenade x2. Doing this once is faster than doing Method 1 twice however the timing is slightly more strict and you will be staling your grenades which you dont really want to be doing (unless your on high %'s and you'll be blowing yourself up with nades in order to survive KO moves).

Method 3: Stales C4. This is easily the fastest method and can be performed mid-battle relatively easily and seamlessly. Staling C4 means you may be able to survive your own C4 offstage at higher %'s where you otherwise wouldn't. This method is my favourite since it can be used mid-battle quickly.

Remaining Method Summaries to be added later.

All 3 methods can be used while the opponent is offstage without risk of being interrupted (obviously, since they are offstage). Also, consider the non-approach sections of Pokemon Stadium 1 a chance to completely refresh all your attacks :) I've looked for as many applications/variations of this technique and this is what I've come up with. No other character in the game seems capable of self refreshing their attacks.

Discuss!
 

etecoon

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this is old but not widely abused for some reason, someone probably should've made a topic about it a long time ago rofl
 

Corpsecreate

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I'm not really sure why people wouldnt use it. I have been using it and it is so useful its crazy. My look into diminishing made me make sure I always Pummel (Although you cant pummel too fast otherwise it wont refresh your attacks).

Edit: While posting this, the song in my huge playlist just went to the song where Piccolo fuses with Nail in DBZ. I think your avatar influenced my playlist Etecoon :p
 

etecoon

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I've been doing this inbetween stocks for a long time since velox brought it to my attention, people never fall for mine combos anymore anyway so it's a good way to use the time. but most snake's really aren't that progressive, like even now most snake's don't momentum cancel right even though the most effective methods of doing so(air dodge for horizontal, uair for vertical) have been tested and confirmed

I mean **** the highest placing snake at MLG uses fair to momentum cancel : p
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
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Method 1 i have been using for a while. Method two also but not that much. Method 3 is new to me so thank you for posting this. Pretty useful when I think about it.
 

SuSa

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Wait, this actually freshens up the stale move list?

How come nobodies told me about this?

SPAM THAT UTILT GUYS. You can always freshen it up. <_< ...

I <3 you if this threads true (seems to be)

:nifty::leek:
 

etecoon

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Wait, this actually freshens up the stale move list?

How come nobodies told me about this?

SPAM THAT UTILT GUYS. You can always freshen it up. <_< ...

I <3 you if this threads true (seems to be)

:nifty::leek:
velox posted this in the social thread at some point during your absence, I think it was like 6-8 months ago, most people ignored it

Edit: While posting this, the song in my huge playlist just went to the song where Piccolo fuses with Nail in DBZ. I think your avatar influenced my playlist Etecoon :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voE6tCoiPxo

BRUCE FAULCONER DA BESS

I also listened to that since you mentioned it, this might be my favorite youtube comment ever

"Piccolo is the Samuel L Jackson of DragonBallZ."
 

SuSa

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That's probably because it was in the social thread.

Well that explains why I didn't know about it...

what about staling moves using Nikita? (EG: Lay down a mine, blow it up with Nikita instead of a grenade drop)

I only ask this because you can have the mine on the ground, and keep the Nikita up in the air - then drop the Nikita onto the main. It creates a wall and freshens up one move (I think this would stale the mine?)

If I'm understanding how this works....

:nifty::leek:
 

etecoon

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I don't think it works the same but I didn't test it, might try it later
 

SuSa

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Well if this enables us to freshen our grenades/ftilts [I'd likely use method 3 a lot] or hell... just freshen our moveset a lot (as dthrow+pummels also freshens our moveset)

Then this is ****ing epic and I'm glad it was brought to my attention. Stale moves play a VERY important role. There is a reason why I always pop the SWF balloon, or attack the pillars on WeeGee's/Brinstar...

I have a question, although I think the SL may have already answered this:

Grenade 'hit' over grenade 'explosion' ||| You know how our grenade bounces off things? I'm pretty sure that counts as it's own thing in our stale moves list. O_o But I haven't been able to test it... if this is true you can abuse that on stages like Brinstar/Weegee's/anywhere you have things you can chuck a grenade at.

As I'm pretty sure the 'hit' and 'explosion' actually freshens up 2 moves in our stale moves list.

:nifty::leek:
 

etecoon

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haven't tested it but the problem there is that brinstar is snake's worst stage overall IMO and this wouldn't change that, I'd ban that **** every time(or go MK) and luigi's mansion is never legal anywhere lol
 

SuSa

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Balloon in Smashville.

And I just woke up, I'm having problems thinking of places. I also don't mind Brinstar so much in certain matchups, but the ones I don't mind it in - they'd never take me there.

VS MK or Wario, brinstar is banned without a second thought.

:nifty::leek:
 

Underload

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Smashville has so many **** cool utilities. I need to train there MORE.

I'd rather go to Brinstar than Cruise against a Metaknight. I ****ing blow on Cruise. SuSa, you should make a thread dropping facts, tips, and playthings about RC. Or make a post in the stage thread.
 

SuSa

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I'll go grab an RC picture (I know there is one of the full stage somewhere in the Marth boards?) and I'll show some things and give tips+facts about the stage.

It's **** amazing... haha


Also this thread just changed my ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE and how I plan to play this game. Why this was ignored? I don't know. THIS IS HUGE. It allows us to incorperate utilt into our game more, which also freshens the rest of our moveset (considering how easy it is to land utilt when most opponents aren't trying to avoid death...)

So more utilt = fresher ftilt/nades = more damage output = refreshen ftilt/utilt = better killing as well.

Seriously, why was this **** ignored? It's even better if I'm correct about my Nikita.

This is way easier to freshen your moveset than trying to dthrow and stuff (my usual method) because you can do this at quite a many different times, depending on your opponent and how far away they are...

:nifty::leek:
 

Corpsecreate

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I havent tested using nikita, never really considered it since nikita is so slooow :(

I can confirm that when you throw a grenade at someone (or something) and it hits them (the grenade itself hits them, not the explosion), that hit counts as its own 'move' and will refresh all your attacks and will stale the 'getting hit by thrown grenade' move. So that means if you throw a grenade at someone, it hits them and then it explodes, that will stale your grenade hit once and your grenade explosion once.

Also each hit of AAA refreshes, each hit of Ftilt is considered 2 different attacks and so the 1st hit stales the 1st hit and the 2nd hit stales the 2nd.

@SuSa - Be careful not to pummel too fast, pummeling too fast will result in only ONE stale, the timing between each pummel is different for each character.

Oh and it takes 9 hits for a move to go from fully stale to fully fresh. Its been a while since I went into the stats involving diminishing but the result was something like this. Percentages given are now perfected and are how much dmg an attack does relative to being completely fresh.

1. 100.000 %
2. 85.714 %
3. 77.143 %
4. 69.524 %
5. 62.857 %
6. 57.143 %
7. 52.381 %
8. 48.571 %
9. 45.714 %
10. 43.810 %

This pretty accurately follows this formula: Damage = (Base Damage) * 0.936 * e^(-0.0914*X) where X is the number of times the move is in the list and e is the mathematical constant roughly equal to 2.7183.
 

SuSa

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I know about that Corpse, I'm the person with an entire thread about grabs and pummels. ^^;

Think of the 9 things as a scrolling list, here's an example:

Start of match:

Empty, empty, empty, empty, empty, empty, empty, empty, empty

You spam ftilt 2 times

ftil2, ftilt1, ftilt2, ftilt1, empty, empty, empty, empty, empty

You try to freshen your ftilt with 2 grenades, 1 hits your opponent.

grenade explosion, grenade hit, grenade explosion, ftilt2, ftilt1, ftilt2, ftilt1, empty, empty

You then hit your opponent with 1 ftilt (first hit only), a utilt, a pummel, and a dthrow. (In this order)

dthrow, pummel, utilt, ftilt1, grenade explosion, grenade hit, grenade explosion, ftilt2, ftilt1


Each part of the stale move list removes a certain about of % which effects knockback and everything. I forget how exactly it does that, but that's how it works. (Hope this made sense)

:nifty::leek:
 

Corpsecreate

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Yeah I understand the whole list thing, thats pretty easy. Its the % that a move refreshes that I dont know :(

On a side note, does anyone know the launch angle of snakes Fsmash?
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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How often do you get enough time to do this? surely not often enough to critically change anything... And I'd rather setup in between stocks...
 

SuSa

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So a smart player just walks into your mine during invincibility? That doesn't count towards your stale moves btw, and yea.. sure it wastes some of their invincibility but I haven't found it helps me at all. Sometimes that mine even backfires.

Also method 3 is pretty practical in a lot of situations. I'd prefer to keep my moves dealing damage faster + having a chance to kill, seeing as it's getting harder and harder to punish opponents.

Imagine if ftilt wasn't so stale and was actually viable at killing.

:nifty::leek:
 

SuSa

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Don't forget you don't neccessarily have to do this all at once.

You can place a mine and throw a grenade at it at a later time. Same with having a C4 out and placing a grenade over it and blowing up the C4.

It doesn't need to be an at-once thing, make it less obvious.

:nifty::leek:
 

Z1GMA

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So in other words, Snake attacks his own mine, resulting in an input on the Stale List?
 

Limeee

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if i have a c4 thats gonna blow soon and its not helping me i'll lay two grenades by it to make use of it
this is so legit
:009:
 

Corpsecreate

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Blowing up 2 grenades with 1 C4 was only staling the C4 once, im not entirely sure why. You would think it does 2... hmm :p

As SuSa said, your mine can backfire and I find that being snake with the worst mobility in the game, it usually does. The special thing about this is that it refreshes ALL OF YOUR ATTACKS. Thats what makes this special. Had you have done these attacks in this order (and say all of the attacks are already stale to some degree):

1. Ftilt 1
2. Ftilt 2
3. Grenade Explosion
4. Nair.
5. Grenade Explosion
6. Ftilt 1
7. Grab - Down Throw.
8. Utilt

Lets say all all of that did 80% by the end of it. The thing is, if you had refreshed your attacks at the start, every single one of those moves would have done more damage. So you would get extra dmg from 8 attacks, the accumulative effect of that extra dmg is so worth a quick and smart c4 detonation.

I should also mention u can Dsmash --> place C4 on top and detonate. Not entirely sure what this stales though, someone test it ;P
 

SuSa

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@Corpse
I wouldn't think it would do two. It's one hitbox, and just like many multi-hit moves there needs to be an amount of frames apart to count as multiple hits. This is why nair only counts as 1 move in the moveset (assuming all hits connect) and I'm still unsure about ftilt1/2... <_< I'm trusting you on that one.. but I think they are one in the same. :x

and as for the mine/c4, I would believe this would count for the c4, seeing as the mine is being hit by it to explode. ;)

:nifty::leek:
 

Corpsecreate

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I think with the mine/c4 it would stale the C4 also but I cant confrim this.

I can say for about 90% certainty that ftilt1/2 count as 2 different moves on the staling list. I did test it before and when I did I was sure of my result, I just dont perfectly remember that result :(

When you say that moves need to be certain frames apart you are right...in a way, its very odd, there doesnt seem to be any consistency. For example, with TL if you Utilt string someone 3 times at 0%, interestingly enough, the Utilt only stales one time, even though you used it 3 times. However if you use Utilt once, wait for them to land, Utilt them again, wait for them to land, Utilt them again then it stales 3 times. So this would make you think that theres some minimum number of frames between each hit that needs to pass to count as a second staling.

So then I tried hitting with a bomb and a Zair at exactly the same time to see how many times it staled - it staled the bomb once and the Zair once. So now it looks like theres no time between hits. You may say thats because they are 2 different attacks and thats why it staled both. So then I went fox and spammed laser (which has a smaller interval between hits than TL's utilt string). It turns out that each laser was staling the laser even though the time between each hit is so small AND its the same attack.

So yeah, it doesnt look like theres any all-round method for determining whether something stales more than once or not.
 

SuSa

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That's because you are testing wrong, and tested two things for Toon Link. The 'timer' only applies to the same move. Although may ignore special attacks?

Fox's laser is weird though, and that would be inconsistant with the results for pummels. Perhaps it's because it's a special? Maybe only physical attacks (talking A button here) have the distance between them count? (This could go with pummels, smashes, tilts, and aerials)

For example, you could try testing with Samus's fair (as it has multiple hits) or Snake's nair/dair.

EDIT:
I'm pretty sure Snake's grenades work as two independant articles, considering it's limit is 2 - there is probably a check on pulling a second, and if 1st one exists pull #2 - if 1+2 exists, do not allow a pull.

Or it may be the same, but according to your results on how they decay that doesn't make sense. :urg:

Because I see no other reason for them to stale x2 according to your testing with them. Unless that result is wrong and the grenade only stales one time.

But if THATS true, then how come if you stale the first grenade - the second one is also staled and doesn't do the fresh 16 (17?)% damage. :urg:

:nifty::leek:
 

Corpsecreate

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Its not because its a special. I know this because MK's Uair string stales each Uair which again is faster than TL's utilt string at 0%. The same is true for MK's Dtilt, each Dtilt stales no matter how quick they are performed.

Multi-hit attacks like snakes dair/nair always stale once, I know this for sure. Its attacks where you push the A button more than once (TL's Fsmash, Snakes F-tilt) that are a little different.
 

SuSa

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Strange... haha... :s

Also for your new methods, 90% sure they'd all stale the C4. The mine+grenade for the C4 would only stale the C4 once, making the mine a waste of time.

You also don't need to second jump for these, you can jump in a direction while doing the SH place so that you can blow it up from a safe distance.
EDIT:
Still unsure, and curious, about the Nikita...

:nifty::leek:
 

Corpsecreate

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Its not character specific, you just input the base damage that an attack does (from training mode, yes it has to be training mode) and then select where that attack is in the stale moves list. "Current Damage" is the damage the next attack would do with your current setup of stale list.

I put the snake pic there simply because it was an empty area :p Doing the entire cast with a nice little GUI that displays all of their attacks would take a lot longer than 20 minutes I think :p
 

SuSa

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Its not character specific, you just input the base damage that an attack does (from training mode, yes it has to be training mode) and then select where that attack is in the stale moves list. "Current Damage" is the damage the next attack would do with your current setup of stale list.

I put the snake pic there simply because it was an empty area :p Doing the entire cast with a nice little GUI that displays all of their attacks would take a lot longer than 20 minutes I think :p
Why training mode? Doesn't that round damage up due to not counting decimals (which stale moves factor for) and therefore give inaccurate results?

:nifty::leek:
 
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