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Troll Science with Winnar!

Winnar

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Science/Physics Time with Winnar!



The one with the straw and the liquids being held at the end of the straw
It's called surface tension. The small amount of water's weight is supported by the tension created by the surface area inside the straw.

If you make the radius of the straw two times bigger (2r), straw's surface area doubles as well (2 * pi * 2r), but the volume inside the straw becomes 4x bigger (pi * [2r]^2). At some point the volume of the water increases more than the surface area of the straw. Basically, the downward force of gravity becomes more than the upward force caused by surface tension and the water will fall out of the straw.

There is also a small adhesion force of water to the straw which holds the water in place.

Speaking of, there's a neat thing called capillary action. This is where water actually rises in a small tube (if the tube is small enough). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capillary_action



That one also works.
This one only kind of works. The majority of the light's just going to go into the stream of water and then go right out the other side

---(light)---> |(water stream)| ---(light)--->

What you're thinking of is fiber optics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_fiber

Fiber optics is really, really exciting, because it allows you to do stuff like this (among many many many other things). I haven't been keeping up with fiber optics, but one application is for internet stuff. If I'm remembering this right, fiber optic cables are faster, lighter, cheaper, and takes up less space than ethernet cables. Yes, please.

One other thing I forgot to mention, a friend of mine and I were talking about this picture.

He reminded me that water CAN experience total internal reflection, thus letting light travel through a stream of water, but there are a few conditions that need to be met.

1) The angle of the light ray(s) have to be just right upon entering the stream
2) The stream of water can't have a steep arc, or the light will escape the stream
3) The stream of water can't have a single break in it (where it becomes water droplets falling in an arc), or the light will escape the water

I'm not sure if this is true for all light, or just lasers.

The problem though is that this implies that you can gather a bowl of light water or something, rather than it being concentrated into the end of the stream and then escaping out of the bowl.


aight now this has me curious...I realize the portal would be a strech

but what if you replaced the portal with Niagra falls which never stops (as far as waterfall's concern and you add the wheel/electricity combo)

how would that not work?
The problem with this is that portal technology doesn't exist, even theoretically. If it did exist, then you could technically abuse the never ending gravity. You still have the problem though that you won't be producing much power. It might be never ending energy that you produce, but it's not going to be very much never ending energy. Also, portals will probably take some amount of energy to create and sustain, right? The energy the infinite waterfall would produce would almost definitely not make up for the energy you lose by making and keeping the portals up.

Also yes, this is essentially how you turn running water into electricity. The Hoover Dam is a power plant. That is why they built it. You don't have to build a dam, but if you have a basic understanding of electrical engineering then you can build your own using a magnet, some wire, a water wheel, and one other thing I can't quite remember.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_hydro.html

Anyway, the problem with water power is that it isn't terribly efficient and your power output is relatively low. Nuclear power produces something like 1000x more energy

Here's a website that breaks down some of the basics of solar vs hydro vs wind power: http://www.solaralaska.com/primer/solvs.htm



also...I mean this might be dumb...lol but I Kinda wanna know why this wouldnt work? or atleast keep a room illuminated for a little longer when you turn the light off

room made of mirrow walls/floor/ceiling
This is probably the hardest one to answer. I have a few theories, but I'll talk to some people about this and get back to you with a more solid answer. For now here's what I'm thinking about with it.

First of all, no mirror is 100% reflective. It's going to absorb some light. There's one practical limitation on this theoretical problem. Technically the light would take longer to fade out, but we're talking a very small amount of extra time.

The "escape through a crack" theory could work. I mean if there is a hole or crack in the room then light will escape and your room will almost instantly become dark when you turn off the light. Light is so fast that even if it takes 100,000 reflections before it escapes through the crack, it will still probably take about a millisecond for all of the light to leave.

If you assume, though, that there are no cracks (for example, if it's a spherical mirror room), then the problem is a little bit trickier. Certain wavelengths of light are absorbed whenever light bounces off an object (so if you or the light bulb/light socket are in the room, then most or all visible wavelengths of light will be absorbed). This is more or less how colors are formed/seen.

Another thing that may or may not actually come into play here is that light dissipates (thins out) as it travels away from the light source. That might be negated, though, by the 100% reflective mirrors assumption. Bleh.

Okay so the main thing is that I don't think this will work because if it DID work then you could leave the light on and get an infinite amount of light density into the room, which wouldn't make sense.

Bleh.

P.S. I'll update with more of the troll science pictures later. Gotta get to class now, ciao!
 

SleepyK

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subscribing because i love ryan and i missed him dearly at TO6
 

BBQ°

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lol I don't remember. I just remember cursing a lot after killing myself in our pools match LOL <3
 

_Rocky_

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the elevator thing has been disproved by mythbusters at the very least
 

Zero_Gamer

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You are traveling with the elevator as the elevator moves just like how you are moving with a car as it moves. Although you may not be doing any movement actively, you are going at that same speed, so when you jump in the elevator, you'll just be changing your fall speed relative to the elevator rather than the outside of the elevator and you'll be still be falling, except now you've crashed your head into the roof of the falling body. The best you can do to survive an elevator would be to spread your surface area to dilute the inevitable force on your body when you crash.

*Waits for Winnar to come back and tell me wrong*
 

ZeroUnderOne

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The one about the light... nothing tricky about it

You are right, mirrors aren't 100% reflective so they absorb some of the electromagnetic energy (light) as kinetic energy (vibrational modes). Things get hot when left out in the sunlight right...
Air inside would also absorb and get hot. Lightbulb would absorb and get hot. Troll inside would absorb and get hot. Immediately after the light source is shut off, all the light would be absorbed.

Elevator... Assume it is 1 floor up. (Higher up= greater momentum/potential energy=decreased survival)

You are falling with an acceleration A. Your last minute jump produces an acceleration -X.
Total acceleration = A-X

In reality: |A|>>|X| because your legs aren't strong enough to produce such an acceleration (Can't jump one floor in height). So even though you are a little above the elevator floor after your jump, when the elevator comes to a sudden stop as it hits the ground floor... you follow suite and smash into the elevator floor with the downward velocity produced by A-X.

There are a few more details (conservation of momentum, terminal velocity, etc) but you get the gist of it.



Assuming the mirror is already 10 lightyears away
This would somewhat work as long as the light doesn't disperse (collimated) or get absorbed completely. I say "somewhat" because no telescope exists that can resolve light from a sun, much less a planet, 10 light years away. So you won't be able to see yourself from 20 years ago.

The centrifugal force here would just work to make him stand upright, not levitate. No lift is being created.
Think of the totem from Inception.... it spins on the table right? If you take the table off from underneath, is it going to hover in the air?
 

tw1n

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You are traveling with the elevator as the elevator moves just like how you are moving with a car as it moves. Although you may not be doing any movement actively, you are going at that same speed, so when you jump in the elevator, you'll just be changing your fall speed relative to the elevator rather than the outside of the elevator and you'll be still be falling, except now you've crashed your head into the roof of the falling body. The best you can do to survive an elevator would be to spread your surface area to dilute the inevitable force on your body when you crash.

*Waits for Winnar to come back and tell me wrong*
Actually this is 100% correct. The thing is, you are traveling at the same speed as the elevator. But you jumping technically only slows you down a bit before you hit the ground. In the end you will still colide with the ground at a high speed depending on the fall distance.
Simple numbers to help explain it. You and the elevator are falling at 40 mph. Your jump is lets say 5 mph in the reverse direction. So your speed when you hit the floor (assuming you jumped right before the elevator hits) will be at 35 mph which is more than enough to cause severe harm.
 

ph00tbag

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The centrifugal force here would just work to make him stand upright, not levitate. No lift is being created.
Think of the totem from Inception.... it spins on the table right? If you take the table off from underneath, is it going to hover in the air?
It's more complicated than that. And your analogy is misleading, because angular momentum is what keeps a top spinning.

First off, centrifugal force is only an existing force in the frame of reference of the thing being stuck to the wall. In all other frames of reference, centripetal force is a name given to any force that causes an object to travel in a circle. In the case of a rock tied to a string, this force is tension. In the case of the ride where you spin around and stick to a wall, it's normal force. In the case of orbital mechanics, it's gravity.

Hula hoops are a spinning circus ride kind of case. They (or rather their center of mass) are kept in a circular pattern by the normal force against your belly, and by the occasional force of your swaying hips. This normal force increases the static friction between the hoop and your belly (or shirt, if you're wearing one), and as long as it's going fast enough, the normal force will be high enough for the the coefficient of static friction to be high enough to resist the force of gravity.

The reason that the troll science comic doesn't work is because you are the sole thing keeping the hula hoop aloft, and the table is the sole thing keeping you aloft. So when the table is gone, there is nothing keeping you aloft, and thus nothing keeping the hula hoop aloft.
 

ZeroUnderOne

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I'm glad to see people are chiming into the thread and elaborating on all this :)

It's more complicated than that. And your analogy is misleading, because angular momentum is what keeps a top spinning.
Good stuff! Your analogy of the rock to string is perfect, I messed up with the angular momentum/totem. Your point is spot on: The table keeps troll up, troll keeps hoop up, hoop doesn't produce lift to make him hover.


But I was thinking of something, what if we change the shape of the hoop? Instead of a cylindrical hoop, we make it a hemispherical hoop so that the top/inner portion is curved and the bottom/outer portion is straight. If the troll can somehow hula it fast enough, he could create lift below and low pressure above. What do you guys think?
 

ph00tbag

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I'm glad to see people are chiming into the thread and elaborating on all this :)



Good stuff! Your analogy of the rock to string is perfect, I messed up with the angular momentum/totem. Your point is spot on: The table keeps troll up, troll keeps hoop up, hoop doesn't produce lift to make him hover.


But I was thinking of something, what if we change the shape of the hoop? Instead of a cylindrical hoop, we make it a hemispherical hoop so that the top/inner portion is curved and the bottom/outer portion is straight. If the troll can somehow hula it fast enough, he could create lift below and low pressure above. What do you guys think?
I don't know enough calculus for this one. ~.~
 

BBQ°

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this thread is so awesome. eventually we will figure out that one of these troll sciences could work under certain situations, and then we will make zillions of dollars.
 

Winnar

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Holy crap guys! I didn't expect this topic to be well received O:

<3 all the smarties coming out to pick up the troll science slack I left

<3 all the <3'ers

also XD exarch

---

Anyway back to troll science

Thanks ZeroUnderOne for helping me get a better handle on the mirror room. What's still tripping me up is this: What would happen if it was 100% reflective and in a vacuum? Almost completely removed from the original image at this point, but it's been a fun question to tackle. I guess the main problem is that the light will be absorbed by the light source, or the heat will eventually break/melt whatever mirror is containing it. In any case, on to other stuff :O



At first I actually wanted to say it was nearly possible. The more I think about it though, the less plausible it seems. The first problem is that as soon as the elevator starts to fall, you will not be on the ground. You'll be suspended in the air, thus you couldn't possibly jump. I mean maybe you could, if you held yourself to the ground on the rail.

Okay, let's say you know it's going to happen. By the way, making this assumption automatically negates the plausibility of entire thing. You could never possibly know your elevator is going to fall unless it either starts to make questionable noises, or you just brace yourself for the fall on every single elevator you ever get on. When I say you are bracing yourself for the fall, I mean you're pushing yourself down onto the floor in more or less a crouching position. Enjoy everyone looking at you weird for the rest of your life.

BUT ANYWAY, assume you know the elevator is about to fall. You're ready to jump. Let's talk about how hard you're going to have to jump. How fast are you going right before you hit the ground? Let's say you fall down three stories. That's about 30 feet, let's say. It's probably more, but whatever.

...

Okay I just did some calculations and tw1n is right. You would have to jump really freaking fast to be able to negate your downward velocity. Even to just get to a velocity where you break bones but won't die probably.

But whatever, let's say you're pumped with adrenaline and you can miraculously jump like Superman. The timing on this jump is insane. Your survival window to jump is fractions of a second. Too early and you'll end up hitting the roof of the elevator (as Zero Gamer pointed out), and then the floor for a killer two hit combo
ha, ha, ha...*sigh*
. Too late and you obviously don't jump at all, so gg there.

Not to mention that in 99% of all elevators you'll be making this jump blind. Unless you're in an elevator that can see outside, you won't know how close you are to the ground. You can guess, but like I said your margin for error is ridiculously small.

So yeah all in all, not ever going to help you.

That said, I guess the best thing you can do to ensure your own survival is to try to position yourself so that you fall on top of as many people as possible to cushion your fall.

Alternately you could be a hero and try to get under someone/everyone to cushion their fall.

---

ZeroUnderOne, I don't modified hula hoop would work. I'll have to ask my aerodynamic engineering friends.

One problem is that if the hula hoop creates any kind of lift, it will immediately lift the hula hoop and not you. The hula hoop might potentially be capable of a short flight (as an oversized frisbee, of sorts), but there's nothing really keeping it attached to you I think.

Keeping the hula hoop up, you're only fighting gravity on a light object. Lifting you up would require much more force, and I don't think even a heavier hula hoop would be able to generate that same amount of force without flinging itself up without taking you.
 

tw1n

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As Zero stated earlier, the best option for the elevator fall is to lay your body out on the ground. This will cause the force from the collision with the ground to be spread evenly throughout your body as opposed to just your feet then legs and so on. Although I might recommend putting something underneath your head so as not to recieve severe head trauma/brain damaga lol.

By the way. If someone can do all of this within the moments it takes for an elevator to hit the ground, props to you haha.
Oh and another note, the odds of this ever actually happening is low. The cables can support well past the weight of an elevator at max capacity and there are brakes and several back up brakes to prevent the elevator from falling lol.

I love this thread.
 

ZeroUnderOne

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One problem is that if the hula hoop creates any kind of lift, it will immediately lift the hula hoop and not you. The hula hoop might potentially be capable of a short flight (as an oversized frisbee, of sorts), but there's nothing really keeping it attached to you I think.
That's a great point! Hmm, the hula has to somehow incorporate the troll's mass during lift eh? What if we make the troll a bit pudgy so that the belly can mold over the hoop's shape during contact? In addition, let's say the troll is hula hooping so fast that the static friction in the Z direction (vertical) prevents the hoop from angling upward. Maybe I'm overthinking it :)


I've got a couple favorites. Anyone care to rip them apart?



&

 

BBQ°

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for the math problem-

e09gu8u59 8ijw tiuwjo




fyi- it's actually true that 1.999 = 2. Someone explained that in a thread a few months ago.


for the plane picture-

I'm guessing the plane would be able to take off from there, assuming the "treadmill" accelerates at the same rate as the plane. i dont really know, lol
 

Winnar

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That's a great point! Hmm, the hula has to somehow incorporate the troll's mass during lift eh? What if we make the troll a bit pudgy so that the belly can mold over the hoop's shape during contact? In addition, let's say the troll is hula hooping so fast that the static friction in the Z direction (vertical) prevents the hoop from angling upward. Maybe I'm overthinking it :)
You're overthinking it, the static friction isn't going to be increased because the hoop is moving faster. Does a tire have a higher static friction when the car is moving versus when the car is stationary? Nope, and it's the same principle here for the hula hoop.

I've got a couple favorites. Anyone care to rip them apart?



&

I've seen the math one before, it's kind of tricky lol until you figure it out. I'mma let you dudes figure it out or look it up or something

The airplane one is very interesting. Here's a long'ish answer to it, but if you want to read it then do not skip ahead. You'll get very lost very quickly.

http://www.airplaneonatreadmill.com/2008/01/airplane-on-treadmill.html

edit - Lol sorry bbq that's incorrect.

I explained it over aim, but just so everyone knows, the math troll problem hasn't been solved yet

Edit 2 - wow bbq way to be a lamer and edit away your wrong answer
 

tw1n

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I think there's a problem in your answer still BBQ.
Following your eq. 2a - 2x = (a - 2x) + (x - 2x)
2a - 2x = (a - 2x) - x
2a - 2x = a - 3x
2a - a = 2x - 3x
a = -x

Which the original problem started with a = x

I must tear this problem apart and figure out where there is an error lol

edit: Some thing clicked as I was falling asleep lol. a=x as stated. So at any point that you have (a-x) then that instatntly becomes 0.
So the equation turns into 0 = 0 or 2 = 1*0/0

I can sleep easy now lol
 

Fenrir VII

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if x can equal a (and it is stated in the first step that it does), then a-x can equal zero.

In the last step of the solution, both sides are divided by a-x, which can be zero. This is essentially the same as multiplying both sides by infinity... so the solution 1*infinity = 2*infinity is actually correct, but pretty useless.

Follow the solution as if x=a and make the necessary substitutions...

a = a
a + a = a + a
2a = a + a
2a - 2a = a + a - 2a
2(a-a) = a + a - 2a
2(a-a) = (a-a)

This is actually true, as both sides would be 0.
 

Winnar

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So does anyone have any more science/physics/math questions? Like...how does a satellite stay in orbit?

PS bbq is a lamer for editing out his incorrect answer with a more correct answer imo
 

exarch

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omg @ the airplane blog. That's so long for no good reason.

Lift is created by the passing of air over wings. It has nothing to do with the speed of the plane on the ground, regardless of what frame of reference you're considering (local or global.)
 

ZeroUnderOne

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omg @ the airplane blog. That's so long for no good reason.

Lift is created by the passing of air over wings. It has nothing to do with the speed of the plane on the ground, regardless of what frame of reference you're considering (local or global.)
Too easy right? Now check out this airplane treadmill mythbusters episode on youtube.
These guys set up a misleading experiment and conclude that the airplane can take off.The wheels and ground don't matter! Just like exarch said: As long as the engines can blow air fast enough over the wings then there will be lift.

You can take the wheels off and give it pirate legs! As long as it has engine is blowing air, it will take off.

Hmmm.... what if it was in a vacuum :)



On one of the exams I graded yesterday, some kid divided by zero. Made my day.
 
D

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For the light in a room full of mirrors, wouldn't the photons of light just degrade into waves and the waves degrade into infrared rays and the energy transfer into heat of the mass of the mirrors and gas inside the room and raise the temperature?

I mean, light cannot exist in a contained space like oxygen in a balloon. There has to be a chemical reaction to continue the irradiation of light.
 
D

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Also, whoever invented the argument that airplane/treadmill argument has to be the single best troll in existence.
 

ZeroUnderOne

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Find me an airplane that can fly in a vacuum


F-35B, with rocket engine in both slots aimed perpendicular to ground. Just need a treadmill that won't get burned now haha.

I mean, light cannot exist in a contained space like oxygen in a balloon. There has to be a chemical reaction to continue the irradiation of light.
Sure it can, photons do not need a medium to travel. If the walls were 100% reflective, then a single photon inside of a vacuum cube lined with mirrors would bounce around forever. Let's say the light source is also 100% reflective.
I tried to think of an example with critical angles and total internal reflection, but I suck.
 

tw1n

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I laugh every time I see someone divide by zero...

Except in calculus where the basics of it revolve around dividing by zero.
By that I mean the limit as h approaches infinity [f(x-h)-f(x)]/h
Bah!
 

ph00tbag

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I laugh every time I see someone divide by zero...

Except in calculus where the basics of it revolve around dividing by zero.
By that I mean the limit as h approaches infinity [f(x-h)-f(x)]/h
Bah!
But you're not dividing by zero.

You're dividing by a very small number that is close to zero.
 

Winnar

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Here's a quick summary of the airplane on a treadmill blog.

1) If the plane is not moving, then the plane will not take off (assuming myth busters isn't rigging the scene)

2) That said, there's no way for a treadmill to keep a plane from taking off.

The only reason that a plane or a car moves backwards on a treadmill is that the wheels are somehow partially locked to the axles. In a plane, this is because of minor friction in the bearings. In a car, it's because of the drive train. If you want the car to stay still, you have to turn the drive train at the proper speed. If you want the plane to stay still, you have to overcome the minor bearing friction. And again, since friction does not change with speed, you don't have to exert any more force at higher speeds. If you run the treadmill at 5mph and turn on the plane's engines just slightly, they will provide enough thrust, pushing against the air, to keep the plane still. If you then increase the treadmill speed to 500 mph, you won't need to adjust the throttle on the airplane - it will remain stationary. That's because it's seeing the same frictional force that it was at 5mph. Thus, it doesn't matter how fast the treadmill is moving - if the pilot does not want to remain stationary, then he won't. It only uses the very first bit of power from the engines to keep the plane stationary. As the throttle is increased from that point, it moves forward just as it would on any other runway. It's pushing against the stationary air!
So then if the treadmill is long enough, the plane could just accelerate to take off speed and fly away.
 

ZeroUnderOne

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1) If the plane is not moving, then the plane will not take off (assuming myth busters isn't rigging the scene)
Not moving relative to the ground or air? The plane doesn't need to move in the horizontal direction relative to the ground to produce lift. As long as the engines are producing airflow over the wings fast enough, it will lift off.

Lift is created by the passing of air over wings. It has nothing to do with the speed of the plane on the ground, regardless of what frame of reference you're considering (local or global.)
 

Winnar

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I was specifically thinking of this plane. There are no engines creating air flow over this plane, so it requires either heavy winds or high speeds to maintain the airflow necessary to get lift.

Anyway, if no one has any more questions or troll science things they want explained...

then I guess I'll see you dudes later :D AIM me if you want to chat I guess
 

Fenrir VII

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omg @ the airplane blog. That's so long for no good reason.

Lift is created by the passing of air over wings. It has nothing to do with the speed of the plane on the ground, regardless of what frame of reference you're considering (local or global.)
No kidding...

The things people argue about...

Could have been summed up as follows:

If there is no relative motion of plane to air, the plane will not take off.
If the plane is in operation with props or jets going at any substantial amount of speed, the plane will move forward, regardless of the treadmill (the treadmill provides a bit of friction, but mainly just spins the free wheels).
If there is enough relative motion between wings and air to create lift stronger than gravity, the plane will fly.

So basically, the treadmill doesn't affect much of anything. It doesn't really decrease the length of runway, even...
 

Winnar

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One other thing I forgot to mention, a friend of mine and I were talking about this picture:



He reminded me that water CAN experience total internal reflection, thus letting light travel through a stream of water, but there are a few conditions that need to be met.

1) The angle of the light ray(s) have to be just right upon entering the stream
2) The stream of water can't have a steep arc, or the light will escape the stream
3) The stream of water can't have a single break in it (where it becomes water droplets falling in an arc), or the light will escape the water

I'm not sure if this is true for all light, or just lasers.

The problem though is that this implies that you can gather a bowl of light water or something, rather than it being concentrated into the end of the stream and then escaping out of the bowl.
 
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