Matchup Discussion: Metaknight

I'll do a format a way of discussion later, and how we'll conclude it.

*Picture belongs to credited artist.*

he dominates doubles

and is impossible to beat =/

nah but the only real threat is his tornado

everything else is easy to handle

God I hope you were trolling, everything else is harder to handle than his Tornado lol.

Actually the only part of this matchup that really pisses me off is tornado. (And offstage bull****, but yeah... tornado)

Not only is Nado a threat, but so is the Shuttle loop, the Dsmash, his aerials, etc.

I really dislike his n-air OOS. That does like 30 damage everytime. Being offstage is really bad, I usually always keep a charged FLUDD to push him back while he's trying to edguard just in case.

It's a fun match-up though in my opinion. Unless he camps for 8 minutes, but I've never played a Metaknight like that though, lol.

ThatGuy said:

everything else is harder to handle than his Tornado lol.

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I agree, Mario has a reliable aerial [Mario tornado, ironic] ground [USmash], AND special [super Jump Punch] counter that beat Mach Tornado that I use all the time. Pretty much the only problems I have in this matchup are his aerials, since they are hard to beat. If Mario is kept in the air, he should not have any problem with Meta-Knights ground game.

Jab? Pretty much everything with a disjoint gets through this, including fireballs . . . . ., you can also try DI'ing into it and then into a Jump Punch if you feel gutsy.

USmash? If you're in the air, use cape to stall it out or use FLUDD to alter your horizontal trajectory [it's deceptively fast, it's comparable to glide speeds than fall speeds], most people won't see the latter coming and since you can reverse you momentum by caping and FLUDDing again, it's very hard to get juggled if you get popped high enough not to be directly comboed. As I mentioned before MK is a nightmare if you combat him from the ground, pretty much the only way to win or make it close is to take him on in the air.

UTilt? See above

FTilt? One of his tougher moves to counter, I don't think Mario has too many options against this other than going aerial against it, I'll probably test this next.

FSmash? lol . . . . . . . if you aren't in a freefall, the loud grunting noise and startup animation are not-so-subtle hints to get out of the way or use a D-Smash in his face. If you're not right on top of him, I recommend the former.

DTilt? Probably MK's most dangerous ground move, Mario doesn't have too many options against this, and the only reliable way to avoid it is to, as with most of the other ground attacks, to get into the air.

DSmash? If you're constantly jumping, this isn't a real threat, since it's hitbox is very/ low to the ground, if they're trying to use it against you as you fall, use your cape and FLUDD to move your trajectory away from them.

Mario vs. Meta-Knight is almost suicide for the former if you try to battle him on the ground, despite MK's recovery power and glides, he's less potent in the air when over the stage, this is kind of mixed for Mario, because while Mario has way more approaches in the air against him, he also has to deal with attacks that are hard to reliably penetrate, and unless they are high on damage, UpB'ing them [which works on all of his aerials, Tornado, and sometimes even Dimensional Cape, Shuttle Loop, but not so much Drill Rush] is usually not a good choice because they can come right back onto you when you're in a freefall state. I find the best approach is with B-Airs and Fireball-reversals, just because they give you range and allow you to change direction and momentum rapidly. Unfortunately, Mario's creative side rarely shows offensively in this matchup, but due to the way Drill Rush "pops upward" at the end of it's animation, you can occasionally take advantage of it to FLUDD+Cape+Edgeguard them off the stage, it works similarly with Dimensional Cape, but that requires a hard read to work.

In terms of difficulty, I'd say he's Mario's worst matchup, with "aggro" Olimar second and DeDeDe third.

ThatGuy said:

God I hope you were trolling, everything else is harder to handle than his Tornado lol.

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nope not at all. the only reason MK wins on many other matchups because he HAS to tornado because it covers all options. I mean oos upb is pretty threatening too, but that's probably 2nd worst to fight against w/e. mario has the tools to fight metaknight anyways.

also u should note when fighting metaknight, what kind of ruleset your using, as it varies for each region, here in Alt north we use i think 40 ? LGL, and conservative stages (non of that bs pictochat etc)

edit: actually worst moves against metaknight is in order tornado, dtilt/ftilt, then shuttle loop lol

Nickelbacker said:

Not only is Nado a threat, but so is the Shuttle loop, the Dsmash, his aerials, etc.

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u shouldnt be getting hit by dsmash at all lol only when u make a dumb mistake but thats really it .

UberMario said:

Wall of text.

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And then he spams d-air for 8 minutes.

Yeah, getting Dair camped in this MU is super stupid. I agree with Hippie, if I'm getting hit by a Dsmash... I did something wrong.

Man, this match up is unplayable for me. No other match up makes me feel so powerless, it's my personal worst MU. Other Marios seem to be able do alright (read, not get *****) against MK, I dunno how they do it.

Typically I try to stay on the ground vs MK because I'm scared to death of getting caught in the air and getting gimped. What's the best way to use fireballs here? I typically just camp SH fireballs, but it doesn't seem to work well. I know Xero uses FH and DJ fireballs, among other things. A lot of people seem to think that staying in the air is the best way for Mario to beat MK. True? Yes, no?

Crouch under dair -> Tornado approaches to save your shield. If he wants to actually hit you with the tornado he has to go low from where you can upB him out of it.

If he uses tornado to juggle you reverse fireball is great [as it also dodges shuttle loop and uair if you do it early enough]. You can mix it up with capes, more fireball reversals, ff bair / nair from the top and ff AD.

Calebyte said:

Man, this match up is unplayable for me. No other match up makes me feel so powerless, it's my personal worst MU. Other Marios seem to be able do alright (read, not get *****) against MK, I dunno how they do it.

Typically I try to stay on the ground vs MK because I'm scared to death of getting caught in the air and getting gimped. What's the best way to use fireballs here? I typically just camp SH fireballs, but it doesn't seem to work well. I know Xero uses FH and DJ fireballs, among other things. A lot of people seem to think that staying in the air is the best way for Mario to beat MK. True? Yes, no?

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FH and DJ fireballs deter nado approaches. Smart move on Xero's part imo.

He beats us in the air and on the ground very solidly...but I believe we have more tools on the ground to fight back with. Jab, Ftilt, Dsmash, and our grab follow-ups all give us a fighting chance to build damage quick enough to even the playing field.

Dair's pretty bad in this match-up aside from breaking nado...it's probably the main reason why this match-up bugs me. Uair has to be used intelligently as well...it's incredibly difficult to follow-up anything against MK. Pokes and reads are the way to go here.

Tornado really should only **** you on wifi lag...you have options enough to deal with it. But your reactions have to be good.

This matchup imo hinges heavily on how well you land F-smash. It's basically your one move that can keep MK honest with his spacing while threatening to kill him earlier than anything he can do to you (besides a bull**** gimp that shouldn't happen if you have good DI and know the matchup).

Fullhop buffered U-air oos is good against MKs who D-air camp too much. And as Gheb said, crouching is also a good option in that situation.

UberMario said:

In terms of difficulty, I'd say he's Mario's worst matchup, with "aggro" Olimar second and DeDeDe third.

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Olimar wins 55/45 overall (if you get the percent/stock lead and camp on it, which almost certainly will happen if you play against an Olimar who tries too hard to camp from the start, advantage swings to Mario's favor like 65/35 on platformed stages). It's not a bad or truly difficult matchup for Mario at all. G&W, Falco, and Marth are clearly worse matchups.

A2ZOMG said:

Olimar wins 55/45 overall (if you get the percent/stock lead and camp on it, which almost certainly will happen if you play against an Olimar who tries too hard to camp from the start, advantage swings to Mario's favor like 65/35 on platformed stages). It's not a bad or truly difficult matchup for Mario at all. G&W, Falco, and Marth are clearly worse matchups.

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Camping Olimars give me no trouble, it's when they play aggresively from the get-go . . . . . his U-Tilt, U-Smash, and U-Air are nasty. Interestingly, Meta-Knight has the opposite problem, he has trouble with camping Olimars, but can shred aggressive Olimars to bits.

I kind of like fighting MKs, it really helps my DI so that I don't DI in a bad position and it helps me see my very limited options.

UberMario said:

Camping Olimars give me no trouble, it's when they play aggresively from the get-go . . . . . his U-Tilt, U-Smash, and U-Air are nasty. Interestingly, Meta-Knight has the opposite problem, he has trouble with camping Olimars, but can shred aggressive Olimars to bits.

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Yeah, Mario vs Olimar is a backwards matchup for Olimar. He actually wins by going aggro. Properly spaced B-airs can beat all of Olimar's attacks, but you have to watch out for his well-spaced aerials, which are more powerful than most of your attacks. His grab game, while mostly useless for actually camping Mario, is actually a GREAT tool for offensively juggling Mario. Generally speaking you want to avoid having to shield against Olimar since you don't punish him out of shield that hard most of the time, and spotdodging his grab requires precise reaction.

Conversation here has kind of stalled. Any other thoughts on the MK matchup? Discussion seems incomplete imo, but I don't really have a lot to contribute to the discussion.

There isn't much to say about fighting Metaknight...you pretty much have to legitimately outplay him to stand a chance.

One thing I do think should be explored a bit more is ledge invincibility abuse to Cape really predictable low recoveries. In theory if you do it right, you should be able to Cape Metaknight while using the invul frames you get from the ledge.

Almost unwinnable matchup, i suggest using someone viable vs. metaknight. These characters include; Falco, Diddy, Marth, Snake.

vato_break said:

Almost unwinnable matchup, i suggest using someone viable vs. metaknight. These characters include; Falco, Diddy, Marth, Snake.

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Also, Metaknight. But yeah, I agree about it being nearly unwinnable. I'd put the ratio at 30:70 personally. Maybe even 25:75.

Imo, fireballs and upsmash are the only things that make this MU completely unwinnable

Only input I wanna give if already haven't been given is to recover smart , and most "random" metaknight don't know how to fight a Mario so they become a generic metaknight. Learn how to beat this and your good.

Are there ways to punish shuttle loops from above? I noticed Anti was able to suck in a couple of Nairo's shuttle loops with Dair. Luck? Or is there a precise spacing involved that makes this possible?

here a friendly of mine,dealing with this MU
(ok i lost but its still a great fight and yeah you shouldn#t pick mario against MK xD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-5Ba7oCii4

Guys, there HAS to be something Mario can do in this MU. Even if it comes down to reading and playing smart. I watch other low-tiers like Yoshi and Lucas go toe-to-toe with MK (in the hands of great players, but still). I'm not saying Mario's viable against MK, but I just hate to think that it's so hopeless. What about air grab-releases from the ledge? Idk, I'm just throwing stuff out there. There has to be SOME WAY for this to not be an auto win.

EDIT: Oof, good game Judge, you played that well. Great combo on the last stock, too. I thought you had him.

You camp Metaknight, make him approach you, and you punish him. I mean on paper it's a sound strategy, since you can definitely punish his approaches. Just it's retardedly hard to do if the MK knows the matchup, and the other thing is you just don't really KO him early enough with any move besides F-smash. And edgeguarding him is very difficult.

Hence why I usually say knowing how to land F-smash is critical in this matchup. Also ledge invincibility abuse edgeguarding is generally an underused tactic in competitive Brawl.

thx caleb^__^
and yeah there IS actually something against MK .
1 is the MU experience. you have to know MK reaaally well and your opponent shouldn't xD

2. bait bait bait, mindgames mindgames mindgames xD
you have to f*ck his mind completely. you have to bait airdodges and approaches. this is the point were you make damage.read his aerial approaches and try to sliding shield in his range.punish Dash attacks and grabs with pivot grabs, it works hella good
if he do n00b mistakes like airdodging before the ground when he tries to land, punish him for it.
Dthrow is great for baiting airdodges, but however experienced MK who knows how to fight mario will just rising dair and good game xD

yeah its all about MU experience and you have to be a very good player in general to win against a good mk
i wouldn't go mario against a MK pick up fox ^__^

Calebyte said:

Guys, there HAS to be something Mario can do in this MU. Even if it comes down to reading and playing smart. I watch other low-tiers like Yoshi and Lucas go toe-to-toe with MK (in the hands of great players, but still). I'm not saying Mario's viable against MK, but I just hate to think that it's so hopeless. What about air grab-releases from the ledge? Idk, I'm just throwing stuff out there. There has to be SOME WAY for this to not be an auto win.

EDIT: Oof, good game Judge, you played that well. Great combo on the last stock, too. I thought you had him.

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It's definitely managable. It's just about hoping that your opponent doesn't know how to exploit your weaknesses and making them less apparant. You have to play a really really really really really weird way for the matchup to even feel managable. For instance, I stay at about mid-range (typically outside of Metaknight's range), and use fireballs and the like, trying to keep my moves spaced as well as possible. This works to an extent, but it's really not enough to win the matchup, I'm honestly not sure what else to do. Obviously you could keep pressure if you have it, but that sounds rather unsafe. If you get the gimp then go for it!!!!! A free stock is amazing.

I could go on but school.

Play weird, eh? That makes sense I guess. It's MK, so you gotta punish the player, not the character. I guess I don't know MK as well as I should, since there are only a handful of legit MKs in the midwest.

Xero, in your match vs Zozefup I noticed you doing weird **** like DJ fireballs to falling nair to catch his nado from above and stuff. Interesting.

Against Metaknights, I'm of the opinion you have to make them afraid of your F-smash. That is what wins you the matchup.

Your F-smash has the ability to actually outrange him, and if you bait him into whiffing with the charge stance, KOing him at like 75-80% is extremely satisfying.

Your pokes aren't really useless against him either, just his pokes are much better. Of course you have to keep him guessing with fireballs, F-smash, sliding shield, and other shenanigans. Also, you should have an answer to his grab, since MK's grab game is just really good against Mario.

The big issue is range. It is a big issue since the range difference is so large. If Mario can get in, he can do some serious damage. I did it once ever in tourney in my memory and it was combo vid status. Unfortunately, most of the time he is either able to keep you out successfully or successfully approach you.

Other than that, I feel like much has been said. 3:7.

Just a thought on the MK MU. In all the videos I've been watching it seems that MK can't do much about Mario's jabs once you manage to get in range for them to hit. Just wanted opinions on this. If jabs are relatively safe, then there may be some interesting follow-ups that Mario can do. Thoughts?

bwolfe said:

Just a thought on the MK MU. In all the videos I've been watching it seems that MK can't do much about Mario's jabs once you manage to get in range for them to hit. Just wanted opinions on this. If jabs are relatively safe, then there may be some interesting follow-ups that Mario can do. Thoughts?

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This is true for MK and is something that gives a flaw. He can't do too much when a character is in his face. His strengths more than make up for this. First, MK has the range and tools to avoid being barraged by jabs and things of that nature. He also has very fast moves to get him out of things like that. Also, things like that only go so far. The fact that we can really do some **** if we get in is what really makes this MU even have the slightest possibility of winning. I know exactly what you're talking about though. I did it in tourney once where at the beginning i did some crazy combo vid status things and just destroyed his first stock. Anti vs. Nairo is also a very good example.

Mario's combos on Metaknight are garbage. He doesn't really get ***** by your D-throw, your U-air juggles don't last that long on him, and your Jabs don't really lead to unblockable setups on Metaknight.

If there is a list of the top 3 characters where I find Mario combos very frustrating to do, Metaknight makes that list. Along with Falco and Marth. It's too much of a risky guessing game to really combo these characters effectively in most cases.

I mean whatever works for you if they don't mash aerials. But the main moves that will be determining how well you do against MK are fireballs and F-smash.

Another thought; since most of MK's moves have transcendant priority, and therefore won't clash with fireballs, how effective is fireball approaching -> fsmash/dsmash/grab?

Obviously tornado would stop fireballs from working but if the MK player is not scared of Mario (and few are, it seems) then chances are that they wouldn't be using nado too much. That's just an observation I've made. I don't have a lot of MU experience with MK, but generally I see them using tornado a lot more when they don't feel comfortable with how the battle is going (or they're being jerks lol).

In saying that, besides nado being ridiculous, how does FB approaching look for Mario?

Approaching MK is a bad idea period imo, it's better to bait their approach with fireballs.

Calebyte said:

Approaching MK is a bad idea period imo, it's better to bait their approach with fireballs.

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Fair enough. I feel like an approach -> shield/perfect shield to a retaliation is mario's best bet generally. Is that accurate to say? As far as a mix up goes, I mean. Otherwise, I see this as a mostly defensive MU for Mario. Gimps are unreliable, combos are unreliable, so the only thing I can see as an option is shielding -> punishment.

Spacing makes your shield and grabs pretty worthless.
Fireballs, and UP'Bs are the only things that work. Fsmash too.

Ok. One other thing I saw a couple times was Mario doing a sliding usmash under MK when they tried to glide attack. Good strategy?