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1 Stock Matches
- Thread starter Tesh
- Start date
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
no, this is actually bad for multiple reasons, one, it won't change the game much at it's core, still camping, cgs, ect.
two, food, thats a huge no no, even if its a small change, thats adding in more randomness that is not necessary
Three, and this point is very debatable, but 1 stock creates inconsistency in brawl matches, if one players makes a mistakes, gets a bad trip, ect. they lose the match, there will be little to no sense of control or domination in matches because of how easy it will be to win a match just by getting on kill.
To add on to this point, BO15 sets mean either there needs to be more cps added or dave's stupid rule must be removed, by adding more stages we create more luck factors, which is just not good competitively. By removing dave's stupid rule, it becomes very easy for a player to find a couple of great stages as cps for their character to just keep going back to and almost guarantee wins. While i understand this happens in our current ruleset during BO3 with some characters (MK) this rule-set makes winning the first match much easier for both sides, increasing the importance of the extremely vital match #1.
two, food, thats a huge no no, even if its a small change, thats adding in more randomness that is not necessary
Three, and this point is very debatable, but 1 stock creates inconsistency in brawl matches, if one players makes a mistakes, gets a bad trip, ect. they lose the match, there will be little to no sense of control or domination in matches because of how easy it will be to win a match just by getting on kill.
To add on to this point, BO15 sets mean either there needs to be more cps added or dave's stupid rule must be removed, by adding more stages we create more luck factors, which is just not good competitively. By removing dave's stupid rule, it becomes very easy for a player to find a couple of great stages as cps for their character to just keep going back to and almost guarantee wins. While i understand this happens in our current ruleset during BO3 with some characters (MK) this rule-set makes winning the first match much easier for both sides, increasing the importance of the extremely vital match #1.
I guess I meant stalling, not camping. More matches= more tests of skill. Tripping sucks yea, but dont trip, dont sd, dont make mistakes. A bad trip can still lead to you taking damage and then being planked for 8 minutes which costs u a 3rd of the set.
There are plenty enough legal stages for Bo15.
There are plenty enough legal stages for Bo15.
Browny
Smash Hater
Are you ever serious Tesh? lol
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
ZSS da bess in this rule set.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I do think that having 9-15 different stages per set is a bit much. I mean, sure, if really pushes stage knowledge as a skill necessary to win tournaments, but ****. That's a lot. The way I'd distribute stages is Stock 1 is played on a neutral stage, and after that, each player gets 1 stage to CP to. Every time that player loses, the match goes to his stage. So...
Stage stricken to Castle Siege. Stock 1 played on CS. Player 2 wins.
Stock 2 played on player 1's CP stage (PS2). Player 1 wins.
Stock 3 played on player 2's CP (RC). Player 1 wins.
Stock 4 played on RC. Player 2 wins.
Stock 5 played on PS2.
Etc...
So, basically, each player chooses his / her CP stages after match 1 is played, and that's the only CP choice they have for the remainder of the set. Every time that player loses, the next match is played on his / her CP stage.
Stage stricken to Castle Siege. Stock 1 played on CS. Player 2 wins.
Stock 2 played on player 1's CP stage (PS2). Player 1 wins.
Stock 3 played on player 2's CP (RC). Player 1 wins.
Stock 4 played on RC. Player 2 wins.
Stock 5 played on PS2.
Etc...
So, basically, each player chooses his / her CP stages after match 1 is played, and that's the only CP choice they have for the remainder of the set. Every time that player loses, the next match is played on his / her CP stage.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I disagree heavily that we should ever mitigate stage knowledge as a skill, Jack. If we play a BO15 set, and we do end up going to all 15 matches, then if you don't know all the legal stages well, you should hope that you can get your opponent to agree on a gentlemen stage pick because you lack an essential skill as a player.
Also, the key point here is less practical and more ideological IMO; we don't have to ban anything like this. IDC? Planking? Sonic stall? Rudder camping? The only tactics that actually might need to be banned are fin camping, walkoff camping, and circle camping, and those are even debatable! It means that by fiddling with the settings, we turn brawl into a heavily competitive game where the only rules needed are in regards to the counterpick system! No removing anything for being "too good". No scrubby LGLs or infinite bans, or even a rule that you have to stop infinites at 300%!!! It means that brawl can be a heavily competitive fighter with little to no outside rules. Food isn't that random.
Also, the key point here is less practical and more ideological IMO; we don't have to ban anything like this. IDC? Planking? Sonic stall? Rudder camping? The only tactics that actually might need to be banned are fin camping, walkoff camping, and circle camping, and those are even debatable! It means that by fiddling with the settings, we turn brawl into a heavily competitive game where the only rules needed are in regards to the counterpick system! No removing anything for being "too good". No scrubby LGLs or infinite bans, or even a rule that you have to stop infinites at 300%!!! It means that brawl can be a heavily competitive fighter with little to no outside rules. Food isn't that random.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
You can still camp and stall with this ruleset, I dun geddit?
IDC is broken whether you stall with it or not.
IDC is broken whether you stall with it or not.
Well the idea is that if you're stalling (planking, circle camping, homing attack stall, IDC) your opponent can heal themselves with food, and with 1 stock it prevents the opponent from getting a stock lead (and prevents the need for the 300% infinite rule). IDC was never really proven to be broken outside of stalling indefinitely. (and with this ruleset that's no longer a problem)
Idk if low is enough though, might not heal enough damage quick enough. I would use medium.
Life
Smash Hero
Out of curiousity, why the 10% handicap?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
What I meant was that a player can still stall the whole match, grab some food along the way, and then hit the opponent once with 1 second left on the clock.
And how is IDC NOT broken? It is the perfect approach because you have infinite time to space, pressure and wait without having to worry about being hit youself.
Well, this ruleset basically just gets rid of the need for arbitrary rules against stalling. You can still camp, but basically it's not as effective. Meta Knight can't hit you if you're on a different platform (or the ledge) or in the air while he's using the IDC. Plus it has a lot of lag if it misses.
Oh and I would assume the 10% handicap is to force players to approach (once one of them heals themselves), as without it, certain characters (Meta Knight) can force a draw. (Start IDC/planking at the beginning of the match)
Oh and I would assume the 10% handicap is to force players to approach (once one of them heals themselves), as without it, certain characters (Meta Knight) can force a draw. (Start IDC/planking at the beginning of the match)
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
You know you don't have to attack with down-b...?
You can release while not holding an attack button and it has much less lag.
Yes I know...doesn't change that it's easily avoidable. I don't see it being effective on any stage besides final destination.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Which is coincidentally a common CP against MK xD
I was going off the BBR stagelist when I said B015, but now that I am looking, some tournaments don't even have 15 legal stages. But there are easy and fair ways around it, especially since we already allow the same CP for 3 stocks atm.
There could always be the issue of someone trying to stall the whole game for a tie, but they can't do that unless they play well on stage for a while to get their health to 0% to begin stalling.
Of course the only way to prevent stalling for a tie would require maybe opening up special brawl and playing flowers on our heads and food. Now flowers are interesting because it doesn't add a random factor, but it does mean failure to control the stage from a neutral position is putting you behind as well.
As for stalling. I think this just helps with the subjective and complicated stalling issues dealing with LGLs, scrooging etc. The clear cut things like being invisible and invincible for the entire match (IDC) or going to a place where you can't get to me (rudder/homing stall) are a different issue. Personally I feel those things fall in with circle camping. You end up winning a matchup based on a mobility issue or "you can't quite get to this spot".
There could always be the issue of someone trying to stall the whole game for a tie, but they can't do that unless they play well on stage for a while to get their health to 0% to begin stalling.
Of course the only way to prevent stalling for a tie would require maybe opening up special brawl and playing flowers on our heads and food. Now flowers are interesting because it doesn't add a random factor, but it does mean failure to control the stage from a neutral position is putting you behind as well.
As for stalling. I think this just helps with the subjective and complicated stalling issues dealing with LGLs, scrooging etc. The clear cut things like being invisible and invincible for the entire match (IDC) or going to a place where you can't get to me (rudder/homing stall) are a different issue. Personally I feel those things fall in with circle camping. You end up winning a matchup based on a mobility issue or "you can't quite get to this spot".
Change the time to 99 seconds, and it'll be almost like a real fighting game too!
Actually, yeah.
Change the time to 99 seconds.
For serious.
Actually, yeah.
Change the time to 99 seconds.
For serious.
One problem i have with 1 stock is you have to ask how does this affect balance. MK gets better IMO your off-stage thats game over, DDD one grab = 1/3 your life, Falco 1 grab equals half your ife, all infinates truly become 100-0 match-ups.Wario doesn't get waft, Samus will be the worst character in the game because even Ganon can do well because 1 sideB = half your life. I think changing to 1 stock would greatly polarize the balance of the game.
Life
Smash Hero
@Nessn00b (I almost read that as nes n00b. how DARE you. lol)
The problem with that logic is those moves are already that powerful. (Your infinites logic is also bad because ICs have zero-deaths on the whole cast but aren't 100-0 with everybody.)
In a set of Bo9 or greater, you have the same amount of net lives as in a Bo3 with nine stock (unless you get badly swept, and Bo11 ties the stock counts in that case too).
Only characters that see a nerf are Wario (waft has greater risk:reward) and Lucario (aura). Everyone else is the same (AFAIK).
Food will have a minimal effect unless somebody tries to stall (imagine the WarioWare randomness, but without the ability to gain a free stock on two of the outcomes.... okay, bad example). I actually think Medium would be better than Low, as getting a 40%-ish lead and then stalling out the last minute is still possible if the food doesn't spawn quickly enough. Also adds another facet to edgeguarding--if you think it'll be too risky to go for the gimp, you can instead collect the food that's spawned while you edgeguard, adding a more risk-conservative option than gimping that still adds a bonus for near-knockouts.
The problem with that logic is those moves are already that powerful. (Your infinites logic is also bad because ICs have zero-deaths on the whole cast but aren't 100-0 with everybody.)
In a set of Bo9 or greater, you have the same amount of net lives as in a Bo3 with nine stock (unless you get badly swept, and Bo11 ties the stock counts in that case too).
Only characters that see a nerf are Wario (waft has greater risk:reward) and Lucario (aura). Everyone else is the same (AFAIK).
Food will have a minimal effect unless somebody tries to stall (imagine the WarioWare randomness, but without the ability to gain a free stock on two of the outcomes.... okay, bad example). I actually think Medium would be better than Low, as getting a 40%-ish lead and then stalling out the last minute is still possible if the food doesn't spawn quickly enough. Also adds another facet to edgeguarding--if you think it'll be too risky to go for the gimp, you can instead collect the food that's spawned while you edgeguard, adding a more risk-conservative option than gimping that still adds a bonus for near-knockouts.
Ussi
Smash Legend
its interesting... I like the idea of expanding stage usage. If anything, open of a liberal stage lists.
I think BO15 is so much o.O...
15 x 3 = 45
5 x 8 = 40
Though its not that big of a difference time wise.. Except usually everyone's first stock is the campiest. So mentally gonna be like always playing on a fresh stock... Might be a nice mind practice at least
I think BO15 is so much o.O...
15 x 3 = 45
5 x 8 = 40
Though its not that big of a difference time wise.. Except usually everyone's first stock is the campiest. So mentally gonna be like always playing on a fresh stock... Might be a nice mind practice at least
Make it 5 minutes. 3 minutes would go to time just a little less often then we do now. And best of 5 is enough.
Other than that, it looks interesting.
You know what? None of these ideas that get posted on the boards ever do anything. How about, instead of posting whatever theorycraft comes to mind, actually playing and recording sets with whatever changes you like. Then if you still like it, post the vids with a thread so people won't instantly shoot it down.
Other than that, it looks interesting.
You know what? None of these ideas that get posted on the boards ever do anything. How about, instead of posting whatever theorycraft comes to mind, actually playing and recording sets with whatever changes you like. Then if you still like it, post the vids with a thread so people won't instantly shoot it down.
Life
Smash Hero
@rathy: The OTL section is thataway -------->
If we want to show just how awesome these rules are, that's the fastest way. IRL tournaments would be even better, but they take a while to set up and advance warning needed and whatnot.
IMO, use best of 9 or 11, then use 15 (or possibly even more if you use a LOT of stages) for Grand Finals.
If we want to show just how awesome these rules are, that's the fastest way. IRL tournaments would be even better, but they take a while to set up and advance warning needed and whatnot.
IMO, use best of 9 or 11, then use 15 (or possibly even more if you use a LOT of stages) for Grand Finals.
*tries to figure out what otl means*.... *gives up*
Why would more than 3 or 4 people in your region agree to have such a strange tournament? It would never happen. I'm just talking about friendlies/seriouslies between friends who are competent at the game. Assuming OTL has to do with wifi, I don't think many people would take that very seriously (I wouldn't).
Why would more than 3 or 4 people in your region agree to have such a strange tournament? It would never happen. I'm just talking about friendlies/seriouslies between friends who are competent at the game. Assuming OTL has to do with wifi, I don't think many people would take that very seriously (I wouldn't).
Ussi
Smash Legend
with 1 stock, I think BO 7 and BO 11 finals sound better...
With 1 stock i'm thinking it like standard fighting games now (which many will probably think) but the stage depth makes it worth going past BO of 3/5 really.
With 1 stock i'm thinking it like standard fighting games now (which many will probably think) but the stage depth makes it worth going past BO of 3/5 really.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I really wish people would stop pulling ideas outta their *** and people start discussing it legit it's legit. Can this thread please be locked. Threads like this shouldn't even be tolerated.
Luxor
Smash Champion
Why not? It's
not a troll thread, and this is perfectly legitimate discussion about a viable way to alter the ruleset. What shouldn't be tolerated is closed-mindedness, flaming, and poor grammar. Did I just *gasp* ad hominem?
I am a grammar nazi btw.
arguably
I am a grammar nazi btw.
I think the fact that you don't like this thread serves as concrete proof of how legit this is. I feel even more confident that this thread is awesome. Thanks.
As far as character strength goes, the major changes I see are Lucario losing some maximum power (although its not like being a stock behind at low percent is better than high percents same stock).
Pokemon Trainer obviously gets alot better as you can use the best pokemon for the job (squirtle or charizard) for at least half the match.
I don't think Wario is worse at all. It takes about a minute to get a decent killing waft, maybe 7 in an 8 minute match to take out 3 stocks. In a 3 minute 1 stock match you only need 1 good waft to win the match, so its not a big change for him.
Bo15 could be alot if every match times out, but I would expect any set to have at least a couple of matches that end with a KO.
As for stalling at 0% for a tie, I'm a bit confused there as to what anyone can effectively do about that. If only there was a setting for "intensity" of flowers in special brawl. To make the effect otherwise negligible (like 1% ever minute) it would prevent that. Stalling for a tie is nearly pointless though and people already don't attempt to do that.
If anyone DOES want to try this, it could make an interesting, quick and cheap side event. could make it Bo5 sets with Bo7 or 9 for GF. I don't think its necessary or effective to try any major changes as a main event at an offline tournament. The first time I played Brawl +(and kinda liked it) was at a side event for a regular brawl tournament, but I certainly wouldn't have gone there just for Brawl + (a game I knew little about).
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I meant to say like it's legit.
Here's what you get for being a grammar nazi.
Also it's pretty said for people to not be able to exercise the least bit of common sense before they come up with an idea. We don't need to discuss this idea because it's a bad idea. I don't need to sit here and have a 20 page debate about 1 stock with someone else because I know it's a bad idea. I can see it you can see it anyone can see it. Use some common sense and let's not sit here and try to have an intellectually debate about why 1 stcok Matches are good / bad. Use your brain people. But considering this is SWF I'm sure people will continue to dsicuss and deliberate and some people will actually support the idea.
Or we can just have one thread for random idea's pulled out of our *** that will help improve brawl. This thread can be merge with the 1.1 thread and can be merged with brawl+ - project M and whatever other non sense that's people have been doing to the game. We can also throw people ideas for starter stages and what not and whatever BS rule set they want to come up with that. I don't think there needs to be a thread for every random idea someone pulls out there *** nor should it be taken seriously or debated but like I said early this is SWF and this is what you guys do so enjoy. Pretty soon people going to want to start playing out sudden death.....what ever.
PD4FR
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 631
You know, it's not that bad of an idea for some alternative fun at tourneys. Don't hate on the whole concept just because it can't replace the main system we have already.
I'd love to do this for friendlies to mix it up some. <3
Now let me think. This idea seems to fit people who live to high damages and can kill at early percents...Ganon approves!
Luxor
Smash Champion
I approve.
Your argument: This is stupid, why are we looking at this?
Well guess what.
First of all, hacking projects are COMPLETELY different from what we're discussing here. We're altering Brawl's rulesets. They're altering Brawl and making something else. We might as well talk about Melee while we're at it.
It's not like we're arguing about WarioWare, we're looking at an interesting concept from a mainly ideological perspective. If you can't handle that then GTFO.
PD4FR
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
- Messages
- 631
Are you replying to me? I never said Ganon's recovery was good or bad. Either way, Ganon can easily live to around 200. <3
Quality post. Now that you brought up all of these good points, I think this idea would never work in a competitive setting.
PD4FR - just saying that these changes would likely not improve him as he doesnt have alot of good stage, good stage control, mobility etc.
Luxor
Smash Champion
I don't think these rules rebalance the game (except for Lucario) as much as they just change it to make timeouts less viable. I suppose that's a 'nerf' for MK/Wario/other time-out characters, but apart from that it all seems good. Food on low has a nearly negligible impact % wise, but it forces you to approach (or your opponent will get all the food and have a % lead) and leads to food fights lol. I'd be down for this ruleset in both practice and theory.
I cant believe this is what people will think of just to avoid problems that are mainly caused by one stupid character we could just drop out of the metagame and be done with
also, brawl is a CAMPY GAME, you aren't going to be able to change it...ever. People should just stop trying...forcing this game to be more aggro would just ruin it...
also, brawl is a CAMPY GAME, you aren't going to be able to change it...ever. People should just stop trying...forcing this game to be more aggro would just ruin it...