stage discussion *currently discussing Halberd and Delfino Plaza*

This is Sheik's stage thread. Here we will discuss counter picks and general stage use. It's easy, simple and if everyone applies themselves then it should be finished pretty fast.

*How to read the rating system*
5/5- Counter Pick
4/5- In Sheiks favor
3/5- Average
2/5- Disadvantage
1/5- Countered

Final Destination

Rating- 3/5
CP:
Avoid:


mindset...
When you play this stage the idea is to force them into the air. Once in the air they are forced to take an action. If you bait an attack or watch them carefully you can pull of extensive juggles. Dash Attack, f-tilt, d-throw, f-throw and b-throw all put them into the air.

control!
I think Sheik should try to control the center of the stage and slowly push them to the side but always keeping in mind that the center is what you want to control. Most players I have noticed when they are taken to the edge with a juggle, string, naners or whatever will try to get to the center. Always be on the look out for that return so that you can punish and juggle them again.

tricks!
This stage is amazing for grab releases so take Meta Knight here.
This stage gives Sheik plenty of room to work with her Needles.



Battlefield

Rating- 4/5
CP:
Avoid:


mindset...
When you play this stage your whole mind set is to force them onto the platforms. Once they are on a platform Sheik can try to push them off and into a lock by using airials or u-tilt. U-tilt is by far your safest option. Be aware of fall through airials though. If they don't get pushed off they will at least get hit. Learn how they interact with platforms and then punish their habits or character flaws.

control!
The top middle platform is nothing for you to worry about. Sheik should try to control the exact center of the stage and the left and right platforms.

tricks!
The left and right platforms are tipper set ups for your USmash.
You can grab release Squirte with no problem here.
You can grab release everyone if you are facing inward and grab them while under the platform.
You can grab release Wario while on top of the platform.
You can f-tilt> USmashh tipper and kill at lower percents if you are on the top platform.
You can full hop Uair and cancel it onto the platform allowing a follow up (most notably f-tilt).
You can push people off of the ledge and lock them.
If you Vanish and catch people on the platforms and do not tech you can punish any action they take with tipper USmash.
You can use your Chain under a platform for added protection.
You can wall jump very easily here.
You can Vanish glide on the platforms.



Smashville

Rating- 3/5
CP: no one
Avoid:

mindset...
Smashville is a mixture of Battlefield and Final Destination. You should try to force them into the air and onto the platform. If you bait an attack or watch them carefully you can pull of extensive juggles. Dash Attack, f-tilt, d-throw, f-throw and b-throw all put them into the air.

control!
Sheik should try and control the area around the moving platform.

tricks!
Unlike Battlefield the platform at Smashville does not set up for your tipper USmash.
You have your GR options as long as the platform does not get in the way.
When Squirtle is grab released he always goes under the platform.
People die earlier to f-tilt> USmash when you are on the platform.
The platform gives you Vanish and Needle Glide options.
You can platform cancel onto the moving platform.



Yoshi's Island

Rating- 2/5
CP:
Avoid:

mindset...
Honestly this is Sheiks worst neutral. Get rid of it.
When forced to go here try and play with the platform, it's you only advantage when at this stage.

control!
You need to control the area around the large platform.

tricks!
The chain can glitch in the center of the stage giving it a constant hit box.
Sheik can duck dash on the far right ledge and slide 3/4 of the stage.
You can platform cancel when the platform is tilting.
You can wall jump and cling very easily here.
The platform give you on stage gliding options.
On the down side, if you try and angle the Vanish where you barely land on the stage you will slide off due to the slope.



Pokemon Stadium 1

Rating- 4/5
CP:
Avoid:

mindset...
This stage changes often, and for Sheik it is always for the better.

normal
You can play the platform here like a pro. F-tilt pokes through and gives Sheik a great way to pressure the platform. USmash tipper defiantly hits through the platform.

fire
On the fire stage Sheik can one again play the now larger platform like a pro.
She also has a huge burning tree to help her. She can use b-throw or f-throw and toss them into the burning tree. If they DI in follow up. If they hit the tree and rebound you can follow up. If they tech the tree they now have a wall to their back and Sheik is in front. Unless the have enough damage to clear the tree, they're in a bad position.
On the left side Sheik can crouch camp in the corner. Use you speed to punish any attempt to get you.
At this stage Sheik can also jab infinite people against the burning tree.
On the right side Sheik can crouch camp behind the slope making you harder to hit.

water
Sheik can crouch camp behind the windmill. No projectiles can hit you and the windmill messes up the opponents approach. Sheik can also use the Windmill to combo. You can also jab people against the windmill for a short time.
She can also play the platforms pretty well.

earth
You can extend your jab in the middle pretty well.
If you crouch camp in the middle it force people to approach through the top... granted that they don't have a tool to attack you (Snakes u-tilt, Link's Bomb ect. ect.).
You can punish just about any attempt to get you if they approach from above.

grass
Grass gives Sheik the least advantage. You can crouch behind the slopes, and play the platforms, but it isn't that amazing.

control!
At every stage of this stage Sheik should try and control the space around the platforms.

tricks!
At every wall Sheik can extend her jab by jabbing them into the wall.
At every short platform Sheik can use SH weak Nair to push them off and into a f-tilt.
Most platforms here are a set up for USmash tipper.
Remember, the higher you are the sooner USmash tipper will kill. You can end some f-tilt locks with USmash and kill them rather early.
Sheik can crouch camp behind slopes.



Norfair

Rating- 5/5
CP:
avoid: no one

mindset...
This stage is probably Sheiks best. She really doesn't have a match up where the foe can use the stage better than she can. People may still be able to use it, but not use it better.
On this stage you need to keep one thing in mind, the platforms are your friend. You can tether and go all over the place. I have literally used Fair to knock someone towards the stage, tether, drop, jump and use Bair to knock them back out. Sheik can get out of danger really fast and turn many situation into ledge guards. A lot of people will get desperate and try to upB onto a platform hoping you will try to ledge hog with Chain. Predict and punish with one of Sheiks lightning aerials. To make matter worst for them Sheik can remain below someone often. If they are on the top right or left platforms Sheik can be on the platforms below and if they are there Sheik can be on the center platform. At the same time that Sheik is trying to pressure the platforms she can set up a ledge guard. It is awesome.
The platforms also give Sheik good glide opportunities.
The only real draw back is that needles become less useful here.

Beware of lava. Sometimes there will only be one or two platforms that are not covered in lava. If Sheik can get there first she can usually punish tho foe trying to get to safety.
Also be ware of the lava wall. Sheik can knock people into it and attempt a follow up. This includes knocking them back into the lava wall. Bair and Fair are best suited for this.
Also be aware of the fire pillars. You can use them several ways.
1. It helps you camp some by getting behind them and putting the pillars between you and the opponent.
2. Throwing/hitting the foe into them for extra damage.
3. Baiting for the foe to try and hit you into them. They will usually try to rush you and get to you before it is to late. Predict and punish. This also goes hand in hand with the lava wall.

There is one last thing that needs discussed, the cursed wave of lava. This acts as constant pressure. People who do not know this stage tend to freak out. If they are n00by enough to go into the safe house make sure to laugh at them. If you are n00by enough to go into the safe house you should laugh at yourself.
The safest way to deal with the wave of fire is to air dodge, ledge grab or if you are good enough, roll/step dodge.
What you should try and do to the foe is put them off of the stage where they are forced to recover. A lot of people will get sloppy.

control!
Try and control the platforms that the opponent is around.

tricks!
You can knock people into the wall of fire with Bair multiple times.
You can knock someone into the wall of fire and attempt to kill with Nair, DSmash or even USmash!
Needles off stage are **** here.
Since the left and right platforms are so close to the edge of the scree you can follow them off and almost into hoop damage to try and finish them with a Bair, Fair or Nair.
When you are both forced onto the top platforms just remember that your USmash kills at lower percents making your f-tilt lock combo straight into a USmash kill on some match ups. It also allows it to combo unstaled.
Because there are so many ways for Sheik to get back onto the stage this removes her normally horrible ledge game while on the ledge.


Brinstar

Rating- 2/5
CP:
Avoid:

mindset...
The stage is a delight for characters that can pressure, Sheik being one of them. However, Sheik is not the best character at pressuring.

Remember that this stage can be changed by destroying parts of it.
It is smart to keep the sides up. You can use them to stop projectile camping or to extend the hit box of USmash tipper in case they land on the platform above the tendon.
Try and keep the center part of the stage destroyed on your bad match ups here. This gives you a break with some match ups and an easy way out. This does nothing against MK though.
The easiest way to destroy the center is to DSmash and buffer Fair for when it is destroyed. Make sure you buffer Fair! It is a bad idea to Dair right here, real bad.

control!
When playing here you want the foe to be on the outside and Sheik on the inside.
Simply play her punish game and you will win.

tricks!
You can f-tilt> USmash and kill early on the top and side platforms. The acid can make this situation happen often.
The left and right tendon extends the hit box of your tipper USmash.
You can use the tendons to make projectiles useless.
If you cannot get back to the stage without getting punished you can sometimes grab the ledge and then Dair into the acid. That way you can recover from the sides. You eat 20% though, so it is a trade off.
You can crouch behind the slopes to lower Sheik by a great deal.



Halberd

CP:
Avoid: no one

mindset...
Halberd is a great stage for Sheik. You can plank here, kill here and GR here. This is a great Sheik stage.
Beware of characters like Meta Knight who can plank you like crazy on the first part and attack from below. It is best for Sheik to play hard to get and avoid the foe for the first part. Fight at the second part of the stage where Sheik has the advantage.

control!
There are two main parts to Halberd. The first part, where you are flying around on the platform and the second part, where you are on the Halberd itself.
On the first part Sheik should try and control a corner and not put herself in the inner sloped area.
On the second part Sheik shouldn't try to control anything. The stage is to big.

tricks!
You can duck dash on the slopes at the flying platform part.
You can f-tilt> USmash early.
The platform is a tipper USmash set up.



Delfino Plaza

CP:
Avoid: no one

mindset...
Delfino is a good pick for Sheik because the stage changes and might mess up any chain grabs that someone might be performing on Sheik. It also messes with characters like Olimar who rely on stage control. The stage could change and they might end up at the bottom of a sand hill.

control!
Sheik really can't rely on controlling the stage since it changes so much. Just try and stick around platforms is all I can say.

tricks!
You can duck dash here in several areas.
On top of platforms and in some areas (like the 3 pillar area) Sheik can kill early with USmash.
Some areas are flat and allow for grab releasing.

*shoulda done this yesterday
*reserved

Also, bump.
Come one guys... no input? AT least say the same thing that I did so we know that we're on the same page.

Well... Sheik isn't a character that really relies on stage control. Actually depends on what you consider stage control to be, because I personally differentiate between literally controlling the stage from zone control. Every character controls zones but not every character can control parts of the stage. Example, Snakes nade controls the area of its radius. Unless of course they are the same thing, but by my definition I believe Kel is actually talking about zone control.

Also most characters want to be at the center of the stage, the degree to which that is important, depends on the character. I don't think it affects Sheik that much most of the time, because she has nice ledge mixups that will usually let her back on the stage so retreating is not a bad option for her. She also does not gain as many advantages as say a Marth would for trapping a character near the edge of the stage. Somebody else with better Sheik knowledge post, and Saviors I think its better to just make this a stage discussion thread and have stage control be an aspect of it (because I don't think stage control will be so different from stage to stage)

I meant zone control, just didn't know that it was that term.

Zone control greatly changes with stages. Compare Green Greens to Norfair or FD to Brinstar.

Sheik is horrible at the ledge. Mix ups= gimmicks. She has no strong way to get back to the stage.

lol dude mixups are not gimmicks. There are gimmicky mixups but not all of Sheik's options from the ledge are gimmicky. You just can not generalize like that. On FD, you don't have as many options from the ledge as BF or SV, but she's still decent from there. Of course, it's MU dependent on how strong those options are, but it's something you can fall back on. My point is even if Sheik is forced to retreat from the center of the stage, she has the option of retreating to the ledge or attempting to go back to the center if she can.

I was calling her mix ups gimmicks. Because they all suck! They me same good or cool, but just like a good or cool commercial advertising cherry coke, it is still a lie.

what saviors means is that against characters w/ options like marth/mk/falco (to a certain extent), sheik can't get off the ledge without eating something stupid like 50-60

vs my non sandbag marth (i.e. didn't sd like a tard) on brinstar, he couldn't do jack **** every time he got on the ledge. i think the only times where i let him get on stage was when i got impatient and tried to gimmick him with lasting hitboxes. when i stayed patient and just camped him with float nairs/ff fair/dtilt/jab/grab mix up, it was stupid. lava was the only way he escaped that position without me as a ledge trapper messin gup

clowsui said:

what saviors means is that against characters w/ options like marth/mk/falco (to a certain extent), sheik can't get off the ledge without eating something stupid like 50-60

vs my non sandbag marth (i.e. didn't sd like a tard) on brinstar, he couldn't do jack **** every time he got on the ledge. i think the only times where i let him get on stage was when i got impatient and tried to gimmick him with lasting hitboxes. when i stayed patient and just camped him with float nairs/ff fair/dtilt/jab/grab mix up, it was stupid. lava was the only way he escaped that position without me as a ledge trapper messin gup

Click to expand...

yea in my matches with xisin getting off the ledge is quite hard for both characters (marth because of phantom lag) its a really dumb guessing game.

saviorslegacy said:

I was calling her mix ups gimmicks. Because they all suck! They me same good or cool, but just like a good or cool commercial advertising cherry coke, it is still a lie.

Click to expand...

What are you saying? They don't all suck, this is the first time I've heard of three chances to have amazing amounts of invicibility frames being bad options. I don't think you know all your options, regardless I don't understand your 2nd sentence, although I have an idea of what you're saying.

clowsui said:

what saviors means is that against characters w/ options like marth/mk/falco (to a certain extent), sheik can't get off the ledge without eating something stupid like 50-60

vs my non sandbag marth (i.e. didn't sd like a tard) on brinstar, he couldn't do jack **** every time he got on the ledge. i think the only times where i let him get on stage was when i got impatient and tried to gimmick him with lasting hitboxes. when i stayed patient and just camped him with float nairs/ff fair/dtilt/jab/grab mix up, it was stupid. lava was the only way he escaped that position without me as a ledge trapper messin gup

Click to expand...

Marth is, however, one of the MU's where you do not want to be on the ledge against. Although I did say that being on the ledge depended on the MU. Whatever, fine, it's true Sheik will not want to go onto the ledge, but she has it better than most characters if she has to do so.

List her options on the edge then.

Yep knew em all.... she still gets punished. You just need to wait for them to commit to something and then use that time to recover from the ledge.

Lol somebody got frustrated at his first tourny and finally realized what we have been saying since the game came out.

Yes Sheiks ledge options are bad......so are most of the casts. Snake, DDD, etc. There are very few characters that are actually comfortable playing on the ledge. It's just a part of this game.

If they **** you when your on the ledge....**** them back. That's how smash goes.

You DO have mixups though and there are enough of them to keep your opponent guessing. NEVER roll above 100%. Jumping from the ledge is also a bad idea.

saviorslegacy said:

Yep knew em all.... she still gets punished. You just need to wait for them to commit to something and then use that time to recover from the ledge.

Click to expand...

Everything in this game gets punished if properly predicted and with proper execution tbh. Its just certain situations are harder than others. You have to be patient and unpredictable. Also yea its a bad spot rule of brawl try to avoid bad spots.

MK just happens to be lucky and not have a bad spots.

I realized her ledge game was bad before. I sat down about two weeks before the tourney and reviewed my old thread on Sheiks weaknesses. Some thing that are bad simply can be covered up by playing smart (no disjoints) while other kinda stick out there. I finally narrowed her weaknesses down to 3 things.
#1 if you miss a tipper set up have fun killing them
#2 she takes to much tech skill
#3 she sucks on the ledge

Another is a few bad match ups but hey, everyone has though.

At the tourney vs really good players those weaknesses became very obvious. That is why I have this thread. We can use the stages to help with her kills (FD gives gr dacus and Norfair gives lava) and they can help with recovery from the ledge.



Anyways, can we get back to the stage discussion?
What do you think about FD; what zone should we control and who should we take there and who do we what to avoid fighting there?

Having a problem with number two is what makes problem three seem much worse than it is.

Also Susa missed a couple key ones.
Drop>retreating second jump and turnaround needle>tether back onto ledge
Drop>fall a certain amount>second jump>air dodge so you land on stage with invincibility frames
Mixup with
Drop>fall certain amount>second jump>land with aerial and autocancel asap
or
Drop>fall certain amount>second jump>tether to ledge while rising>do another option asap
(The first one is usually meant for recovering once the opponent has given you some space, and the next two are meant for punishing if the opponent starts to close up the space b/c he thinks you're doing option 1, although the third option is safer than the second one.

Getting back to stage discussion:
I don't know too much about the zones, anything I say would be theorycraft so it's even hard for me to judge whether it would be practical. But I can say that since Sheik mainly relies on her speed (ex. amazing shield dash and dash attack/grab) you want to maintain a zone for which you can dash in and punish the opponent's option while staying outside of their zoning.

In terms of CP's, I would definitely say MK. The amount of damage you can get out of grab makes the rock paper scissor game much more profitable for Sheik. And also something that people should try is CP Falco there or at least not ban FD when a Falco is CP'ing. Most people will probably say I'm crazy, but Falco's camping is not a big issue for Sheik in this MU especially when you can crawl under lasers and/or charge needles to punish any SH laser attempts. The biggest strength to this stage would be that it eliminates Falco's recovery options significantly. Platforms actually give Falco more options to recover with his illusion, but if Falco recovers high on FD with illusion, he's screwed. On FD, he either goes for the stage or he goes for the edge, Sheik can cover both very well. Also consider taking Wario here.

Aside from that i don't know enough MU's to say much more. Just going to cover the obvious and say that you don't want to take IC's here, and you probably don't want to take Diddy Kong here... but I can't say for sure.

The only MU's where FD's size becomes a detriment I believe are Diddy, ROB, and possibly Pit (I haven't played a Pit in ages though)

Not really bad but Toon Link is extremely annoying on FD.

riocosta123 said:

The only MU's where FD's size becomes a detriment I believe are Diddy, ROB, and possibly Pit (I haven't played a Pit in ages though)

Click to expand...

Ice climbers! lol like it matters also pika can be a pain here although not tooo too bad

Yeah you should also not take Pika here, because the whole point of FD was either for camping or characters with CG's. And Pika has both, although his CG is what you want to look out for.

pika can't out camp sheik though. thunder jolt isn't good enough.

I have added characters to the CP and avoid list.
Do you agree with this? Who should be there and who shouldn't? Even if they are a bit harder on this stage mention them. FD isn't that hard to strike.

It seems like our only clear advantage here is our grab release game.

Chain stall ---> nair is awesome!! and Wall jump --> well spaced bair. Worries the opponent because of the speed. That's just how I feel about my get up situations.

I like diddy on FD too.

things like gyro and tires and the like really mess up my play style since the limit how and where I can move. banana's too but much lesser extent since there isn't an active hit box on them they are significantly easier to pick up.

At stages like BF the gyro and bananas don't limit you as much. That is why I listed them both on avoid.

<3 said:

pika can't out camp sheik though. thunder jolt isn't good enough.

Click to expand...

Yeah I know, I was just saying that Pika can camp, but the reason he would take you to FD is more for getting that CG and not to camp.

@Susa want to elaborate on those banana tactics/tricks? Also what's your mindset using the bananas? Trying to use it to help Sheik's camping game or more as an up close attack item by using z-drop and banana throw mixups?

um... I don't play robs.

I don't use banana's I just make sure diddy can't use them. they are like another reason for him to approach me. Diddy is WAY too good with banana's for me to risk giving him one back.

What zone should we control on FD and are the characters listed in both categories okay?
I want to move onto BF tonight.

ROB's camping game is much better than Sheik's if he can set it up. Gyro stops needles and he can laser/wall with relative safety.

Well, now you're just trolling or thinking very simply about ROB.

I've played both Chibo and t0mmy, undeniably the two best ROBs after HolyNightmare and ROB's projectiles are extremely effective at walling Sheik and controlling the stage. If you go for the gyro you are well within his amazing tilt range or a laser. Also, ROB's glide toss is fantastic and gives him the ability to escape any pressure situation. He can shoot a laser after about 2-3 seconds IIRC.

It's not about running into a gyro, it's about ROB being able to advance with the gyro, drop it down, and set up a wall against Sheik where he can pressure her with lasers, tilts or aerials, all of which outrange Sheik. All of this comes at extremely low risk to ROB. Again, high level ROBs don't just simply chuck it at you or glide toss, they use it to limit space.

Just because you state things bluntly doesn't mean they are true or have any merit.

I agree, his camping does take time to set up (which is why the large stage helps), but once he sets it up it does give him a variety of safe pressure options. Of course, all of these are avoidable (as is everything in this game), but being able to put your opponent into a guessing game with little risk isn't a bad thing.

I never said it's unbeatable but its efficacy does increase with more space.

I'm going to agree with on SuSa on this one, ROB's projectiles can only truly punish commitments. The only times where the safe pressure options you mention apply and it becomes a guessing game is when you are near the edge of the stage and ROB has control of the middle just outside his tilt range or he's got a gyro in hand. Other than that you should constantly look at ROB ready to shield a laser when you are in long range, and if he starts to charge his gyro charge your needles. Otherwise take that projectile away from him or just make it disappear with shield like SuSa said.