Category Character Tier Lists

Sempiternity said:

Yeah, but what about vertical distance? Pika can still go farther if you keep the vertical distance the same. Link's bomb recoveries really aren't that good, no matter how you spin it.

EDIT: And Pika can still probably go farther even if the vertical distance was infinite just because Link's horizontal air speed/acceleration sucks, and Pika's is great.

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wait, if vertical distance was infinite, couldn't anyone just hold over and recover infinitely?

Yeah, but some would go 'further' than others due to air speed, etc

Pretty moot question if you're not going to compare distance at some point.

It's not about the horizontal distance, it's about the vertical. You'd need insane, 20xSectorZ vertical boundaries to have Link's bomb recovery beat Pika's double upB.

We could do a sub tier list with vertical vs horizontal.

Puff would obviously win in horizontal.

Idk, two jumps + double extended upb with pika might beat kirby for vertical. Probably not.

I dont know about counting Double extended upB lol

Thats so risky, i think me and Star King had a chat about this the other day :o

Fynal said:

yea prettymuch. cept tiers sorta make sense if yer gona talk about this because clearly, for example, spamming pound will get you a lot further than spamming falcon punch

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actually no, they will both get you to infinity, limits 101.

Meh in a certain sense of "get you a lot further" that could hold.

Ie it's possible that distance from pound > distance from falcon punch at every time.

ballin4life said:

Meh in a certain sense of "get you a lot further" that could hold.

Ie it's possible that distance from pound > distance from falcon punch at every time.

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not in infinites, it is like the volume of the natural numbers is equal to the volume of the natural even numbers, even though natural even numbers are located inside the natural numbers (that is called א0), for example, the volume of the irrational numbers > volume of natural numbers.
discrete math fun :D

dandan said:

(that is called א0)

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Does it have to be an aleph or can it be any variable?
Is that even an aleph or am i just trippin?

dandan said:

not in infinites, it is like the volume of the natural numbers is equal to the volume of the natural even numbers, even though natural even numbers are located inside the natural numbers (that is called א0), for example, the volume of the irrational numbers > volume of natural numbers.
discrete math fun :D

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What does this have to do with jigglypuff's pound recovery always being farther along the horizontal path than the falcon punch recovery is?

Obviously if you let a character move for infinite time over an infinite vertical expanse, then the character will move infinitely far horizontally as well. The question is more about the maximum speed of that horizontal movement.

sharksquail said:

Does it have to be an aleph or can it be any variable?
Is that even an aleph or am i just trippin?

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has to be aleph, what was decided, yay hebrew.

ballin4life said:

What does this have to do with jigglypuff's pound recovery always being farther along the horizontal path than the falcon punch recovery is?

Obviously if you let a character move for infinite time over an infinite vertical expanse, then the character will move infinitely far horizontally as well. The question is more about the maximum speed of that horizontal movement.

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max speed is something different, because then you can say that pika is fastest (jigs is not as fast horizontally).

Over a long period of time jiggs has a higher average, because once pikachu has used jumps and upB he is stuck in the slow moving helpless position, whereas Jiggs can do pound recovery forever.

For those saying link's recovery is worse than ness's, use ness against a good player for a few matches, and you'll say why that's not true. Both are really bad, but link has significantly better options for getting back onto the stage when holding onto the edge. Ness can fastfall and second jump, but it's really slow and floaty. Link has boomerang, upB to grab ledge again, fair and dair with both have good range. With ness, even if you're thrown off the stage from 0%, you won't be able to recover if you're facing someone pro. It's just too **** slow and predictable. You'll get hit again, recover again, get hit, attempt recovery like 6 times or so, then finally die.

There is a pretty large consensus that ness' recovery is the worst.

What I was saying surri, was that in terms of strict vertical distance would pikas double jump plus double extended vertical upb go higher than all of kirbys jumps + upb?

I cant do pika's double upb for beans, and I dont TAS so someone else would need to test that.

ballin4life said:

Over a long period of time jiggs has a higher average, because once pikachu has used jumps and upB he is stuck in the slow moving helpless position, whereas Jiggs can do pound recovery forever.

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i agree that for a finite and pretty long distance jigs will get there first, for an infinite one, it does not matter

If you extend both jumps of the UpB...and you get them both to go upwards, I think it would be pretty close.


Testing that is gonna be a task though lol...TAS onleh

I think Ness would be pretty close also.

It goes really far, too bad it's horribly vulnerable.

ITS ABOUT TIME I POSTED THIS

Stage/Character performace synposis #1 (in need of discussion, not permanant.)

I. Peach's castle.
A counterpick stage. This stage is reminiscent to super mario 64, with the broken bridges from cool cool Mountain, the triangular platforms from lethal lava land, and the bottom moving platform from thwomp's fortress. This stage has a veritcal and horizontal imparity, as shown below:




Top

Pikachu - (good recovery, can abuse the bumper and triangular walls on the side of the stage, Vertical length is not as big as other stages meaning easier kills with down b, horizontal length is small also, meaning easier gimps, stage size is small, people can't run from pikachu as easily, etc.)
- bottom side of stage moves, might mess up recovery

Kirby - (great recovery, bumper and triangular walls can be used to an extent, but not very helpful, extremely easy gimps/spikes)
- not as good as pikachu, in general; can't abuse stage as much as pika can.

Yoshi - (Okay recovery, in terms of parry, otherwise, bad, bottom side of stage does not help yoshi, downb edgeguard is basically out of play due to bottom moving platform, bumpers and triangular walls help little, horizontal length of stage helps alittle in recovery, good on the stage performance wise)
- bottom side negates down b recovery


Fox - (okay recovery, bottom side of stage helps fox also, bumper might mess up uair chains, triangular walls not that great also, might work for some moves, vertical length/horizontal length is small, making it easier to recover, he's fox, he ***** on almost every stage, gimped easier, usmash can be negated due to moving bumper)
- bumper and triangular wall issues
- bottom side of stage might mess up recovery


High

Mario - (good vertical and horizontal recovery, vertical length and horizontal length helps mario greatly, bottom platform somewhat helps, but mostly hurts, bumper can be a nuisance or a helper, triangular walls are okay for mario, easier gimps/spikes, uair chaining a breeze on this stage)
- bottom side of stage moves, might mess up recovery
- a fair medium

DK - (good horizontal recovery, horizontal length helps DK, vertical length and moving bottom platform doesn't, can use bumpers and triangular walls to advantage, uair chaining is easier due to 2 platforms to work with, easy gimps and spikes, upb works great on stage)
- bottom side of stage moves, might mess up recovery
- not as good as above characters

Ness - (Bad recovery BUT bottom side of stage helps greatly, horizontal and vertical length also helps, can DJC with fantastic ease, still gimped easily, no ledges and no wall to vertical upb ascend, triangular wall and bumper is basically not used, and can be a problem)
- he's ness, but this stage helps ness alot, but he's still ness.

Jigglypuff - (alright recovery, can't uair chain as good, lightweight and horizontal length and vertical length does not help this fact; helps in recovery though, no ledges, bottom platform helps none, bumpers and triangular walls help none, gimped easily, but can gimp alright also)
- bottom side does not help
- uair chains are tough to do, but you can still use dair to rest, which is always good


Mid

Luigi - (pretty nice recovery, bottom side of stage actually helps luigi, bumpers and triangular walls are same as mario, 2 platforms= great for uair chains, even greater for a finishing upb due to the vertical length)
- bottom side helps luigi usually, but might mess him up.
- teir factor here, he is not the best character.


Low

Falcon - (bad recovery, bottom of stage can't help falcon, can abuse the bumper and triangular walls greatly, spikes are more effective on this stage, easier gimps/spikes, can be gimped easily also on this stage)
- bottom side of stage moves, might mess up recovery
- uair chaining harder on this stage, gimped easily

Link - (absolutely TERRIBLE recovery on this stage, bottom of stage gives link the finger, link can't space himself between opponents well due to small stage, 2 platforms can help though, bumper and triangular walls help little to none)
- terrible recovery
- gimped un-fathomably easy

Samus - (pretty nice recovery also, can't do much on this stage, but performance shouldn't change much, bottom side of stage helps a bit, but usually it doesn't, horizontal length doesn't really help, gimped easy on stage)
- not much samus can do on this stage
- not enough stuff samus can work with; dairs
- no edges = no fun for samus

perhaps i'll pretty it up later.

also, i had to quick post, i think i forgot about ness; DOH.


II. Congo Jungle
Also a Counterpick stage.

edits:
Moved Jiggly (+1)
Moved Samus (-3)
added ness

I disagree about Jiggly's performance on Peach's. I all have to say is that Fox usmash fails to kill cuz of the bumper

I thought about that, but fox just ***** even without, but, it is a slight Predicament..

i'll move jiggz up one, fox down one.

edit: don't like it that way, but i'll move jiggz up one.

WILL ADD NESS LATER; i'm busy.

Samus' recovery is SO GIMPED at Peach's Castle; the difference is way worse than Link's. Samus NEEDS to be able to grab the ledge.

good point BUT samus has a tad bit of recovery on that stage, link literally has none, you could back throw his *** at 0% and he would most likely die without the bottom platform saving him by luck.

but, i suppose that is viable to samus also, samus does indeed need a ledge.

Link can edge cancel his up + b. :D

no edges on peach's castle.

unless this is about the main discussion, otherwise, yuh.

Link > samus by far on peaches. Not even close imo.

Not only does link's upb have a better hitbox, but he goes the same distance as samus during her upb if not more.

Samus' upb is really good at sweetspotting the ledge which is why it seems like has more distance, but if there is no ledge to grab samus is screwed. Landing lag is the only think the Samus may have, but they are pretty close anyway.

Keep discussing this, when its ready I will update the OP

updated~

gotta leave now, keep discussing.

Soupamario said:

no edges on peach's castle.

unless this is about the main discussion, otherwise, yuh.

Click to expand...

I just mean an edge of anything. It doesn't need to be an edge that you can grab. The point is, if you ledge cancel Link's up + b you don't have the landing lag because you can double jump ---> aerial back on the ledge. I know this isn't easy, but it's a better chance then letting your opponent do a grab or a running attack in many circumstances. ^^

nesses recovery isnt so bad

okisme said:

nesses recovery isnt so bad

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i find it amazing how it is always the same comment, and it is always their first one as well.

Hahaha, agreed dan. : )

the universal noob statements:

-Ness' recovery is so good

-Luigi is the same as mario except if you do his upb on someone he does a super ultimate fire jump. I bet you didnt know that.

-Jigglypuff and yoshi are useless because they dont have up specials that help their recovery.

etc.

EDIT

Also after playing some matches, I feel that luigi's recovery should be a bit lower. Any dtilt (mario, fox, kirby) or fsmash/dsamsh with decent range can punish luigi very badly.

I think kirbies may be better.

Thoughts?

th3kuzinator said:

Also after playing some matches, I feel that luigi's recovery should be a bit lower. Any dtilt (mario, fox, kirby) or fsmash/dsamsh with decent range can punish luigi very badly.

I think kirbies may be better.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I agree with this.

The community overall is horribly inexperienced vs. good Kirbies IMO, since he's rarely used in friendlies because of how much using him is discouraged.

Kirby's recovery from below is horribly punishable, but it's probably better on the whole than Luigi's (given that Luigi's is also just as punishable). When recovering high, Kirby also has a better D-Air and N-Air than Luigi if you care to fall onto the stage against a defender, and has better distance than Luigi regardless.

I've always felt that Luigi has fantastic vertical recovery ability, but his poor horizontal air speed/acceleration really does him in for recovering long distances. He becomes much more linear and predictable the farther you hit him, whereas Mario still has options and the superior projectile. IMO, Luigi is several spots below Mario, and I'd put Kirby and Jiggs and maybe Yoshi above him.

Samus is too high, I think. Sure, she can sweetspot better than many other characters (JaimeHR oh my god), but that's really not enough for me.

th3kuzinator said:

Also after playing some matches, I feel that luigi's recovery should be a bit lower. Any dtilt (mario, fox, kirby) or fsmash/dsamsh with decent range can punish luigi very badly.

I think kirbies may be better.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

luigi's upb has an angle on it that for some reason makes it really easy (for me at least) to do reverse ledge di when someone is fsmashing or dtilting me, and i do count it as a part of his recovery which helps him a great deal (not on hyrule though as the sloped left side blocks you if you want to tech away after the di)

its easy to edgeguard all characters, and since nesses recovery takes some effort to do its considered bad?

can i get a serious reply besides talking about my post count?

okisme said:

its easy to edgeguard all characters, and since nesses recovery takes some effort to do its considered bad?

can i get a serious reply besides talking about my post count?

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Since when was it easy to edgeguard all the characters? Even isai has trouble edgeguarding the higher tiered characters and pretty much everyone makes mistakes when it comes to edgeguarding.

As for a serious reply, look at my explanation in OP dude. I am not ranking ness' recovery on the basis that it is hard to pull off, which it isn't, but because of an entire list of reasons which makes ness' recovery the easiest to edgeguard in the game.

The way you describe ness' ability as difficult makes feel you are not at the competitive level this list is geared towards(no offense). At higher levels of play ness' recovery is almost certainly the worst.

Again, check the original post for a list of reasons.

alright, i went back to the op and thought that ness would be above link and was reminded why this topic made me register. ness is above link easily in the recovery department, i was actually going to argue that nesses recovery is on par or better than falcons and foxes recovery, but below link? come on

edit:
i read the paragraph again and i still believe his recovery is better than LINK, and probably better than falcons, fox does have options at least.

i said the difficulty for a reason because any extremely good ness has extreme control with the up b, some recover from above and sweetspot the ledge in a way that they cant get hit.

Umm. We have already had this discussion.

@ Okisme, Besides purely distances traveled, what does ness' recovery have over links?

when did we have this discussion? you have no argument is what you're saying?