Frame perfect CGs Guide (Adding Visual Guide to process) *in progress

DeLux · Nov 4, 2010

One of the most common johns I see (and I'm guilty too) from IC's players goes as following: "I dropped my cgs so I lost." At the same time, the advice on how to chaingrab with more consistency has been "practice more" since 2008. This thread is designed to be a swallowing of our pride as IC mains and admitting the truth:
Chaingrabbing is hard stuff.

If it were easy, probably everyone would do it. Specifically, it requires accuracy to within 1/30th of a second, repeatedly. And often times, the difference in timing between succeeding and failing is 1/60th of a second, so this level of subtlety in my mind means that
Muscle Memory alone isn't going to cut it.

At the same time, people often use visual cues in order to help guide their CG timings. However, since HDTV causes lag time, if a player is forced to play on an HDTV (cough MLG cough) their visual cues would then again mean nothing.

This guide is designed to add a third dimension of stimulus. Auditory learning, I believe will help CG consistency. Use it to practice for sure. And if you're tourney doesn't have rules against wearing earphones, use it in tourney too.

General Helpful CG Tips

e_alert said:
Wewt, finally redone the Throws. Wow that was so boring. xD

It seems KayLo and I were each half-right about the throws. Two throws are the same for every character (UThrow and FThrow), while the other two differ depending on the thrown character (BThrow and DThrow).

For the throws that differ, the speed depends on the weight1 values found in [thread=210557]this thread[/thread]. I cross-referenced that thread while I was doing the data, and it all checks out.

One thing that stuck out to me was that the FThrow is the same for all characters. This at least explained to me why I was so consistent in "passing back to the right climber with FThrow" when I screwed up. xD

I haven't done the regrab percentages yet. These will mostly be relevant to BThrow and DThrow, both because the timing differs per character, and because they have a mostly upward trajectory after the throw. I think I need a break from the monotony, so I'll be doing those after the rest of the frame data, which I will be doing tonight and will hopefully be much quicker on account of being about 7856326732x less boring.

THROWS

Character - Hitbox / Total / IASA

Up Throw
[Hits non-grabbed opponents]
All Characters - 25 / 53 / 54

Forward Throw
[Hits non-grabbed opponents]
All Characters - 24 / 54 / 50

Back Throw
Bowser - 22 / 57 / 48
Captain Falcon - 19 / 49 / 42
Charizard - 20 / 53 / 44
Diddy Kong - 17 / 43 / 38
Donkey Kong - 21 / 55 / 47
Falco - 15 / 38 / 33
Fox - 15 / 37 / 33
Ganondorf - 20 / 52 / 44
Ice Climbers - 17 / 43 / 37
Ike - 19 / 49 / 42
Ivysaur - 18 / 47 / 40
Jigglypuff - 13 / 32 / 28
King Dedede - 21 / 52 / 45
Kirby - 15 / 36 / 32
Link - 19 / 49 / 42
Lucario - 18 / 47 / 40
Lucas - 17 / 44 / 38
Luigi - 18 / 46 / 39
Mario - 18 / 46 / 40
Marth - 16 / 41 / 35
Meta Knight - 15 / 37 / 32
Mr. Game & Watch - 14 / 35 / 31
Ness - 17 / 44 / 38
Olimar - 15 / 38 / 33
Peach - 17 / 42 / 37
Pikachu - 15 / 37 / 32
Pit - 17 / 44 / 38
R.O.B. - 20 / 50 / 43
Samus - 20 / 50 / 44
Sheik - 16 / 40 / 35
Snake - 21 / 53 / 46
Sonic - 18 / 45 / 39
Squirtle - 14 / 35 / 31
Toon Link - 17 / 43 / 37
Wario - 20 / 50 / 43
Wolf - 19 / 48 / 41
Yoshi - 20 / 50 / 43
Zelda - 16 / 40 / 35
Zero Suit Samus - 15 / 38 / 33

Down Throw
Bowser - 45 / 69 / 60
Captain Falcon - 39 / 60 / 52
Charizard - 41 / 63 / 55
Diddy Kong - 35 / 53 / 47
Donkey Kong - 43 / 66 / 58
Falco - 31 / 47 / 42
Fox - 30 / 46 / 41
Ganondorf - 41 / 63 / 55
Ice Climbers - 35 / 53 / 47
Ike - 39 / 60 / 53
Ivysaur - 37 / 57 / 50
Jigglypuff - 26 / 39 / 35
King Dedede - 42 / 65 / 56
Kirby - 30 / 45 / 40
Link - 39 / 60 / 52
Lucario - 37 / 57 / 50
Lucas - 35 / 54 / 48
Luigi - 36 / 56 / 49
Mario - 37 / 56 / 50
Marth - 33 / 50 / 44
Meta Knight - 30 / 45 / 40
Mr. Game & Watch - 28 / 43 / 38
Ness - 35 / 54 / 48
Olimar - 31 / 47 / 42
Peach - 34 / 52 / 46
Pikachu - 30 / 45 / 40
Pit - 35 / 54 / 48
R.O.B. - 40 / 61 / 53
Samus - 40 / 62 / 54
Sheik - 32 / 49 / 43
Snake - 42 / 65 / 57
Sonic - 36 / 55 / 48
Squirtle - 28 / 43 / 38
Toon Link - 35 / 53 / 47
Wario - 40 / 61 / 54
Wolf - 38 / 58 / 51
Yoshi - 40 / 61 / 54
Zelda - 32 / 49 / 43
Zero Suit Samus - 31 / 47 / 41

God-is-my-Rock said:
Also, spacing is very important when chain grabbing snake. You might be timing in right but have the wrong spacing which gives you the false conclusion that your timing is wrong. If you grab snake while you're inside of nana your spacing should be correct

swordgard said:
All chaingrabs timings are relative to your position. Jiggs is easy to cg too, if you correctly manipulate your position the window becames much larger.

(Lux) said:
Based on preliminary frame testing, there window is at most 4 frames and at worst 2 frame, even when accounting for spacing. For the most part, the window is 2-3 frames.

Much larger is debatable. Percentage wise there's a huge time increase. But actual time length is only 1 more frame.

(Lux) said:
Based on the testing, incorporating a pivot grab or a dash grab will add 1 frame to the window of opportunity for successful regrab over a standing grab. The draw back includes spacing and tripping issues.

The pivot grab I would recommend incorporating because it naturally makes the bthrow cg much easier than a soft turn. I'll compile a list of characters that it's "impossible" to reliably softurn a cg. Every character can be reliably hardturned with a pivot grab, but that's susceptible to tripping.

However, the dash grab creates spacing issues that brings in tripping as a factor but also cg's become mashable as you adjust the spacing issues.

(Lux) said:
In order to reliably CG the following characters, you MUST shield buffer if you bthrow dthrow:

Jigglypuff
Kirby
Metaknight
G&W
Pikachu
Squirtle
Zero Suit Samus

To be safe, you should also shield buffer:

Diddy
Falco
Fox
ICs
Marth
Olimar
Peach
Sheik
Sonic
Toon Link
Zelda

The rest you should be able to not shield buffer, making bthrow dthrow unmashable.

This is assuming the frame data published is correct. I uncovered a frame data error while testing, so take these lists with a grain of salt.

Guest's CG Mashablity Chart: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295819

The Visual Guide

I'm going to go into a frame picture breakdown for each character and show: 6 Frames before the Throw Hitbox is out, and the 4 frames immediately following the throw hitbox. This will show a picture that should be the visual cues of both when to input grab for Popo, and how the spacing of the grab works. At some point, I will include a Nana version that's 5 frames earlier for the grab input for her. And eventually I'll use the hitbox texture so you can see how the CG spacing compares visually from character to charcter. And in the more distant future, combine that info with hurtbox textures if they figure those out.

The Sound Guide

Please make specific requests for sound files in replies to the thread

How to interpret the sounds: The lowpitch sounds are a signal to input DI. The DI will both initiate a throw as well as move character in the proper direction. The high pitch sound is the grab button.

Alternating Grabs
Reserved for links to sound for the entire cast.

The Fthrow > Fthrow String (Non-Buffered)
:random: http://www.mediafire.com/?l4c3zugo84bxp

This is the original test file made for a nonbuffered walking fthrow cg string. I've personally tested and was able to CG all 3 of the variations of PT across FD with my eyes closed using only the sound cues.

Advantages to learning the Fthrow string: Obviously there are going to be days when you just can't CG with traditional alternating grabs. Since the fthrow frame data for every character is the same for the fthrow, then in theory on a frame perfect level, the frame data on the fthrow string CG should be the same as well. This make it an ideal back up CG to have in your pocket. Also, it's tripless.

Disadvantage: Spacing issues.

Credit: EA actually made the sound file for this one

Edit 1- 3:45pm 11/4/10 - FthrowFthrow string uploaded. Intro added.
Edit 2 - 2:45pm 11/12/10 - Added "tips" section
Edit 3 - 8:00pm 11/14/10 - Added more tips and added a MK frame map
Edit 4 - 2:00am 11/17/10 - Post 2 Ideal frame testing dthrow addition
Edit 5 - 7:10pm 12/12/10 - Posted new version of sound file

DeLux · Nov 4, 2010

Frame Data/Maps

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

00 : 00 : Input Downthrow with nana
06 : 90 : Nana Visibly Iniates Dthrow due to 5 frame input delay
07:  88 : Begin input popo slight tilt forward
22 : 63 : Finish inputting popo slight tilt forward for spacing
29 : 51 : Input grab.  This is the second frame of "flash" from MK hititng ground
34 : 41 : Hit Box out on Dthrow
36 : 38 : Successful regrab

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

Code:

Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

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Bthrow > Fthrow

Bthrow > Dthrow

:random: Fthrow > Fthrow CG

Code:

Frame map here

To Do List:

~~1. Develop procedure and test for how 0-300% affects results~~
~~2. Develop procedure and test for how spacing affects results~~
3. Find ideal spacing in terms of frame movement for fthrow, ~~bthrow~~, and ~~dthrow~~ regrab.
4. Determine which value is highest window of opportunity to regrab as "easiest" CG.
5. Retest frame data for ideal Fthrow String and update to thread. Make update sound file if necessary.
6. Combine fthrow testing with bthrow and begin creating frame maps of buffered bthrow fthrow cgs.
7. Combine dthrow testing with bthrow and begin creating frame maps of shield buffered bthrow dthrow cgs
8. Convert frame maps into instructions for sound files
9. Make sound files
10. Test
11. Mashability theorycrafting based on frame data/testing
12. Frame testing on Hobbling and "viability"

Method of Testing for the frame ideal CG

I am going to attempt to keep the inputs as close to humanly possible in terms of consistency. That means one frame "perfect" DI inputs are probably not going to be present when testing.

In examining the best way to do the ideal input for a bthrow cg, I'm fairly certain that when considering hard turns, a player should input a pivot grab for the highest window of opportunity for a successful regrab. As such, a string would consist of the following inputs.

DI > Grab > Pause > Repeat

This means that there is a constant DI input until the grab button is initiated, at which point control input should be released. From a standard frame map standpoint, it would look like this:

Code:

00 : 00 : input backthrow
01 : 98 : DI input back
02 : 96 : DI input back
03 : 95 : DI input back
04 : 93 : DI input back
05 : 91 : DI input back
06 : 90 : DI input back; input Grab
18 : 70 : Successful Regrab

Obviously I need to do some trouble shooting on the number of "DI input back" frames and how modifying that might affect regrab success.

Dthrow testing

When trying to test for shield buffer, I started worked on frames that the ideal "grab" occurred. I still need to test for character to character results, but I know that for MK, 22 frames forward was the best result in dthrow consistency.
Testing looked something like this:

Code:

00 : 00 : Input Downthrow with nana
06 : 90 : Nana Visibly Iniates Dthrow due to 5 frame input delay
07:  88 : Begin input popo slight tilt forward
22 : 63 : Finish inputting popo slight tilt forward for spacing
29 : 51 : Input grab.  This is the second frame of "flash" from MK hititng ground
34 : 41 : Hit Box out on Dthrow.  Marked by percentage increase.
36 : 38 : Successful regrab

The only variable I can't control is the "tilt" degree of input. However, I believe that walking speed isn't affected by degree of tilt, and I hope that even if I'm wrong that testing proves the fact negligible. Upon determining ideal frames, I'll show as a "number of popo steps" etc.

I'll test on 999%, and I figure the spacing that gets the most frames of window opportunity per character will ultimately determine the best "spacing

DeLux · Nov 4, 2010

Q&A/FAQ/Troubleshooting

(Lux)] Do you need help in this project?[/QUOTE] Yes. If anyone wants to frame test said:
Okay so for alt grabs are you going to have different links since people may do different things?

I'm debating on how to do this. I know I'll make multiple different sound files for the different types of alternating grabs people do. I am also contemplating creating a sound kit for each character, so when someone has a sound editing program of their own, they can make custom sound files to suit their own needs.

Rubberbandman · Nov 4, 2010

Okay so for alt grabs are you going to have different links since people may do different things?

-NL-Miyavi · Nov 4, 2010

Muscle Memory works for me ^^

SuSa · Nov 4, 2010

About time IC's did this as a group. :x

Hope to see the sound guides up for each char. up at some point.

Although may I suggest doing important matchups first? It's arguably more important to have the MK/Snake/Falco/Diddy Kong ones up than Link, Zelda, Ganon, and Jigglypuff.

DeLux · Nov 4, 2010

Rubberbandman said:
Okay so for alt grabs are you going to have different links since people may do different things?

I'm debating on how to do this. I know I'll make multiple different sound files for the different types of alternating grabs people do. I am also contemplating creating a sound kit for each character, so when someone has a sound editing program of their own, they can make custom sound files to suit their own needs.

Smoom77 · Nov 4, 2010

Is this frame perfect, or buffering?

Rubberbandman · Nov 4, 2010

Frame perfect requires buffering.

DeLux · Nov 4, 2010

Smoooooooooooom said:
Is this frame perfect, or buffering?

As of right now, the fthrow string I have posted is only frame perfect. When it comes time for certain alt grabs, it'll include buffering.

Edit: What enda said

EverAlert · Nov 6, 2010

I'm such a hobo.

toobusytocare · Nov 10, 2010

i used sound to get all my CGs down until they were muscle memory

its really useful for fthrow cging imo

DeLux · Nov 11, 2010

Did people want me to post tips to making CGing greater in ease (aka things you should do to increase the window of opportunity for a regrab) as I find them? Or should I just limit the posts to the outlined things above?

Rubberbandman · Nov 12, 2010

Umm, edit your first post and place "useful hints: " in with another hidden message tab.

DeLux · Nov 12, 2010

Based on the testing, incorporating a pivot grab or a dash grab will add 1 frame to the window of opportunity for successful regrab over a standing grab. The draw back includes spacing and tripping issues.

The pivot grab I would recommend incorporating because it naturally makes the bthrow cg much easier than a soft turn. I'll compile a list of characters that it's "impossible" to reliably softurn a cg. Every character can be reliably hardturned with a pivot grab, but that's susceptible to tripping.

However, the dash grab creates spacing issues that brings in tripping as a factor but also cg's become mashable as you adjust the spacing issues.

Rubberbandman · Nov 12, 2010

Ah, good stuff.

10 tooshorts.

DeLux · Nov 13, 2010

TL;DR of an incoming post based on additional frame testing, an examination on why to Bthrow > Fthrow or Bthrow > Dthrow

Advantages of doing Bthrow > Fthrow alternating grabs:

- unmashable if buffered correctly
- Fthrow transfer does not have changing timing for every character
- never have to worry about platform dropping, even when non buffered
- no need to shield buffer

Disadvantages

- Makes bthrow timing more crucial (If the bthrow transfer timing is late, it'll result in a dash grab rather than a pivot grab, causing a spacing issue that can't be corrected when an fthrow is buffered)
- The input for both controlling throw inputs and spacing are on the same mechanism so it for less experienced CGers it could be difficult.

On the other side, a similar break down of Bthrow > Dthrow advantages:

- More forgiving on the bthrow timing because minor mistakes can be adjusted
- Inputs for throw and spacing are on different directions so less confusing

Disadvantage:

- Mashable because of shield buffering
- will platform drop if not delicate or buffered
- Varying timings for every character

Does anyone really want a frame break down to support these conclusions?

Sieguest · Nov 14, 2010

The shield buffering makes it mashable?

Explain?

DeLux · Nov 14, 2010

Frame break down time:

The formula used is like this:

(Dthrow cool down time) + ( 8 frames for shield buffer) - (Bthrow hit box frame total + 1 or 2 depending on spacing) = mash time

For example, MK would be like:

10 + 8 - 15 = 3 frames of mash time on a bthrow dthrow.

This whole thing would be negated if you negated the need to shield buffer. However, this is caused by the 10 frame buffer window on a grab. So if the IASA is within 10 frames of the hitbox on dthrow, it means that you HAVE to shield buffer, or wait for the 29 standing grab frames to pass. Also, if the bthrow hit box is 14 or less (squirtle and jigglypuff being the only two), you can't reliably buffer the bthrow without risking a roll cancel on the grab.

A buffered fthrow doesn't necessarily have that wait time because the cool down on hit box for every character is 26 frames which is nowhere near the 10 frame buffer window. So as long as the bthrow is longer than 14 frames which is the 2 turn around frame + anti roll cancel, the 7 framed needed for a pivot grab, and 5 frames for nana lag is present, you can true buffer the bthrow turn around if combined with fthrow.

Sieguest · Nov 14, 2010

Oh, well that makes sense. Thanks!

DeLux · Nov 14, 2010

(Lux) said:
Frame break down time:

The formula used is like this:

(Dthrow cool down time) + ( 8 frames for shield buffer) - (Bthrow hit box frame total + 1 or 2 depending on spacing) = mash time

For example, MK would be like:

10 + 8 - 15 = 3 frames of mash time on a bthrow dthrow.

This whole thing would be negated if you negated the need to shield buffer. However, this is caused by the 10 frame buffer window on a grab. So if the IASA is within 10 frames of the hitbox on dthrow, it means that you HAVE to shield buffer, or wait for the 29 standing grab frames to pass. Also, if the bthrow hit box is 14 or less (squirtle and jigglypuff being the only two), you can't reliably buffer the bthrow without risking a roll cancel on the grab.

A buffered fthrow doesn't necessarily have that wait time because the cool down on hit box for every character is 26 frames which is nowhere near the 10 frame buffer window. So as long as the bthrow is longer than 14 frames which is the 2 turn around frame + anti roll cancel, the 7 framed needed for a pivot grab, and 5 frames for nana lag is present, you can true buffer the bthrow turn around if combined with fthrow.

It has been brought to my attention that I need to double check the frames on roll cancelling being initiated by a grab. I'll look into it ASAP.

So to do:

Roll Cancel Testing
Reliably Soft Turned Character list

I'm also pretty sure that if we combine the mashing frames data with the info on this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288404, we can calculate how "hard" it is to mash out on any given percent on any given character. I realize that this is anti-IC info, but I think it would be beneficial to post for metagame purposes.

Oh, while I'm making walls of text, this might be interesting:
In order to reliably CG the following characters, you MUST shield buffer if you bthrow dthrow:

Jigglypuff
Kirby
Metaknight
G&W
Pikachu
Squirtle
Zero Suit Samus

To be safe, you should also shield buffer:

Diddy
Falco
Fox
ICs
Marth
Olimar
Peach
Sheik
Sonic
Toon Link
Zelda

This is assuming the frame data published is correct. I uncovered a frame data error while testing, so take these lists with a grain of salt.

DeLux · Nov 20, 2010

Walking forward while CGing also seems to have some sort of beneficial properties on spacing. I don't know if this is because the hitbox on a walking grab is different than the hitbox on a standing grab, or if the walking is just creating a different form of spacing. At the moment, I have not been able to grab Snake at 300 percent from a standing grab in frame by frame testing on a dthrow exchange. However, I've been able to do it outside of frame testing, and the only conclusive difference is the incorporation of walking forward as I regrab.

I'll update when I have more conclusive testing.

Alright, it's time to do some myth debunking on the dthrow cg.

It IS possible to reliably dthrow cg character up to 300. However, Tall characters seem to be the most difficult, particularly snake, as of the 12 characters I've tested. If you're at all familiar with the frame data, a throw has a hitbox that comes out. Unfortunately for the viability of the dthrow, the hitbox comes out on the frame that it would be ideal to regrab in terms of spacing and range. However, since the cg'd character is under the influence of the hitbox, you cannot regrab at this time. You have to wait until the next frame. That being said, if the character moves out of the range of grab by this frame, then it is impossible to reliably dthrow cg. However, I don't think that's the case with any character up to 300. That means that every character has at least two frames to regrab,AND THE TIMING SHOULD NOT CHANGE REGARDLESS OF PERCENT.

The only time that amount of damage has an affect is at low percentages that allows for a sloppy cg window of time. At low percents, you don't nescessarily have to grab in the 2 frame window, it might go as high as 4-5 frame windows, making it FEEL like timing is slower. However, it isn't.

-LzR- · Nov 30, 2010

So wtf is a shield buffer.

B0NK · Nov 30, 2010

holding down z for a longer period after a throw in a CG that allows the shield to come out on the first possible frame.

IIRC It allows Nana to slide closer to you faster, as well as keep other inputs from getting in the way during the shield drop lag. Such as nana accidentally rolling or standing grab during a B-throw CG. It makes CG significantly faster. No reason not to use it, esecially on the b-throw CG

tl;dr

It's useful.

-LzR- · Nov 30, 2010

All right thanks I'll work that out some day.

DeLux · Nov 30, 2010

Just to supplement what bonk said, you only should shield buffer on the characters I list above and in the tips section of the OP. You MUST shield buffer characters on those listed or Nana WILL standing grab. The other subset is the group where if you grab late, she will standing grab. But that's only if grab on the last frame of the 3 frame window. If you shield buffer on characters not on the list, you're just giving them 8 more frames in which they can mash out. So don't shield buffer on characters not listed.

ch33s3 · Nov 30, 2010

(Lux) said:
Just to supplement what bonk said, you only should shield buffer on the characters I list above and in the tips section of the OP. You MUST shield buffer characters on those listed or Nana WILL standing grab. The other subset is the group where if you grab late, she will standing grab. But that's only if grab on the last frame of the 3 frame window. If you shield buffer on characters not on the list, you're just giving them 8 more frames in which they can mash out. So don't shield buffer on characters not listed.

You should be b/f'ing most of the characters on that list anyway, it's easier and has much less to worry about (less spacing issues, no worries about hard downs on plats, and it's more DPS).

DeLux · Nov 30, 2010

I'd argue you should be bthrow >buffered fthrowing EVERY character. Period. But I'll explain why when I get more results in.

-LzR- · Dec 1, 2010

Cheese, can you tell me more about shieldbuffering. I want to know and it may help me cg better.

ch33s3 · Dec 1, 2010

Hold grab down after you grab with Popo.

Rubberbandman · Dec 1, 2010

ch33s3 said:
Hold grab down after you grab with Popo.

This is shield buffering 101-300.

Just hold it down slightly longer when cg'ing, nothing else to it.

-LzR- · Dec 3, 2010

All right so what does it exactly do and how?

Rubberbandman · Dec 3, 2010

Im not going to answer that question since it has been answered multiple times already.

DeLux · Dec 4, 2010

Based on my recent research on cg spacing, I have tentatively concluded that this guide with music won't be the miracle cure for laggy hdtvs that we were all hoping for. It'll still have practice value, but visual cues are going to be way too important for them to be simply ignored.

-LzR- · Dec 4, 2010

Well thanks Rubberbandman. I appreciate that.

>_>

Smoom77 · Dec 4, 2010

Theyve answered that multiple times.

Rubberbandman · Dec 4, 2010

(Lux) said:
Based on my recent research on cg spacing, I have tentatively concluded that this guide with music won't be the miracle cure for laggy hdtvs that we were all hoping for. It'll still have practice value, but visual cues are going to be way too important for them to be simply ignored.

I still think your own buffering timing > visual cues overall. I can get light weights(not jiggs) online all the time.

I still can't cg middies/heavies on wifi, but I can at least tack on a little damage. I had it down before, but....

DeLux · Dec 4, 2010

Especially on fthrow and dthrow, the spacing is just as important as timing. It's harder to adjust spacing when what you see is a few frame late. It's frame specific timing AND spacing, which requires visual cues. EA needs to make the pictures on just how specific it needs to be on spacing.

Exceladon City · Dec 5, 2010

-LzR- said:
All right so what does it exactly do and how?

When you hold down the grab button it pulls up a shield for Nana. Since grab is essentially the shield and attack button in one. For example:

1-If you've ever tried to jab > grab someone and you goof on the timing you end up doing another jab instead of the grab.

2-If you've tried to do infinites with Dedede or Marth or someone and you mess up the buffering and pull up a shield instead of re-grabbing.

Well if you hold down grab slightly longer after you throw with Popo, Nana's shield will come up for a second. The shield buffer causes Nana to come back into her neutral position which allows you to do bthrow > dthrow infinites without spacing issues.

If you don't understand by now, you're dense...

Rubberbandman · Dec 5, 2010

You mean he isn't dense after everyone here said it 3 or 4 times already?

Frame perfect CGs Guide (Adding Visual Guide to process) *in progress

Player that used to be Lux

Player that used to be Lux

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Champion

Smash Cadet

Banned via Administration

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Champion

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Champion

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Master

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Master

Player that used to be Lux

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Lord

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Player that used to be Lux

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

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