Advancing the Desync Metagame

DeLux · Nov 17, 2010

This is old stuff. Don't do it.

Replace the Dash Dance Desync with a DSC buffered turnaround shield drop desync

If you are Dash dance Desyncing out of a retreating run to setup a chaser the input looks like this:

Retreating run > DSC > dash dance forward > Dash Dance backwards > dash dance forward > Nana special > Chase

Replace it with the DSC buffered turnaround shield drop desync.

Sounds complicated but it's super easy when you get the timing down:

Retreating run > DSC > buffer a turnaround desync (you know you do this correctly when only nana makes a dash animation while popo simply turns around > shield drop with popo > Nana special > Chase

This option: Spaces better. Reduces tripping. Has a frame advantage in the event you decide to cancel by up to 14 frames. It's more deceptive than the obvious to read dash dance. It can be cancelled into a RID IB chaser as a mixup. It's the same result with obvious advantages.

Replace Dash Back "Kakera Desync" with SND shield drop

If you are using the dash back desync (two input dash dance desync) followed by a shield drop, the input will look like this:

Dash back > Dash forward > Shield Drop > Nana Special > Chase

Replace this with an SND shield drop:

SND > Shield Drop > Nana special > Chase

This option: Has a frame advantage of 7-22 frames. It has one less dash to worry about tripping. It also leaves popo out of dash animation so he's less vulnerable. Recently 00-0 has come up with a whole bunch of movement and retreating mixups that can be performed relatively easily.

OR if you're feeling fancy

Replace with a RIDSC Chaser

Instead replace it with the Reverse Initial Dash Shield Cancel Chaser or a Hylian Desync
(I suggest the former because I'm positive the window for input is larger than a true Hylian, but a Hylian is faster by 8 frames.)

RIDSC Input: Reverse initial Dash > DSC > Nana Special > Input both reversal and dash back at same time > Grab setup

It has an 14 frame advantage on a DBD and also has spacing Properties that help.

COMBINING DSC with IB Chasing

Run in front of your Ice block instead of behind.

DSC early, don't drop shield, and DSG.

If they jump, worse things have happened. Jumping is the fool proof way to avoid being grabbed.
If they do a grounded move, DSG grabbed
If they spot dodge the grab, if you space the IB correctly, they'll be hit by the IB, grabbed
If they grab the DSC, the IB will grab break before most throw hitboxes come out
If they roll, pivot grab punish or DSC and grab with nana when back in sync range.

This has been frame tested. The only issues to work out are the rolling scenario because every character is different.

That is all

Luxor · Nov 17, 2010

+1 support for guy with the same username as me

Smoom77 · Nov 17, 2010

I completely support this. I have tried to use all of this already, but I use SND VERY often. Just look at my set against Havok, I do it sometimes.

Hylian · Nov 17, 2010

Keep it up

.

<wsefkjnbslkf

toobusytocare · Nov 18, 2010

this is all greek to me

=(

EDIT: i watched smoom vs havok and the desync he does where he dashes back and forward then nana does an ice block is the one i use

whats the name for that one? i like know all of the desyncs just not the names for them lol

Smoom77 · Nov 18, 2010

...I swear I used SND pretty often.

Edit: I just rewatched them again. I use SNd more than 50% of the time in the second match, but yeh, I don't use it in the others.

EverAlert · Nov 18, 2010

Luxor said:
+1 support for guy with the same username as me

I love how when he wasnt in the smashlab you were like "**** off with my username" rofl.

Anyway good **** as always Lux, but you don't need me to tell you that.

DeLux · Nov 18, 2010

toobusytocare said:
this is all greek to me

=(

I'll try to make videos to accompany. If EA wants to make pretty animations like the other thread, that would be awesome hint hint cough cough.

Note: I'm going to go over frame data for the RIDSCIBC that I mentioned above as some point.

Hylian said:
Keep it up .

The intent for this thread was for other people to post developments to the desync game they come up with. I KNOW 00-Zero has like 4 videos he should post that are interesting.

And I'm definitely interested in input from you, Hylian, and Mr. Bstick himself, SG, just because you're desyncing game is good and I am curious if frame perfect special inputs can help desync stuff.

Hylian · Nov 18, 2010

I mean honestly I think most people have the wrong mindset with desynchs. I know how to desynch in tons of different ways but the reason I think I'm good at desynching is that I get creative with what I'm doing rather than just desynching just for the sake of it.

For example if you start on battle field and do the starting desynch. This is common, most players do it and chase the IB hoping for a grab or easy uair etc etc. Well it doesn't work against people more than once for the most part so instead on battlefield I do the starting desynch, dash and jump IB with popo so that it slides along the top platform and as that is happening blizzard with nana. This makes it so that an IB is approaching them from above, below, and nana is blizzarding in their face halfway in between the platforms.

I also don't think people use the hitlag desynch enough. It gives you a grab if you ever hit them or their shield with jab. It also lets you do things like uair, and then nair with one climber and blizzard with the other right after the nair etc etc has lots of applications. People also need to desynch when they come back from dying, shoot an IB with nana and fast fall down and chase it with popo, catches a lot of people off guard.

Another thing is that people usually approach with desynchs and that's great but I never see people use desynching for bait or defense. For example if I dash dance desynch into an IB and then dash forward nana slides with me while shooting the IB. Well a lot of people do that and apply pressure from it but most players know how to deal with it. So sometimes I like to DDD into IB, dash forward, but then dash back and jump IB in the direction of my opponent, and then dash forward jump blizzard. This applies constant pressure, keeps you safe, and can bait your opponent into a lot of things depending on the character.

A lot of people just need to work on control, being able to do things without thinking about them. For example did you know if you fast fall from the death platform at the right moment it will desynch you? You then fall out of range of nana and can hold down b(popo won't blizzard if you do it as you land) and then jump at your opponent and nana will meet you in the air and seem to magically blizzard midair for no apparent reason. I do this a lot, and I never think about it, I discovered it by just randomly doing it one day and for some reason I knew it would work having never attempted it before. I just KNOW how to desynch Ic's in any way I need to at whatever time I need to and it helps me a lot.

You need to be able to not think about desynching in different ways. Just do it. Get good at all the desynchs, mess around in training mode and make up your own(doesnt matter if they are known or not), just move around a LOT and try to desynch whenever you want in various ways. Eventually you will just recognize situations in matches where some desynchs are better than others and what desynchs you should use in certain situations if you want to approach with IB or use blizzard or defend or gain stage position etc. Think about crazy things. One day I thought to myself I wanted to desynch into blizzard after Dtilt if I missed the Dtilt. So I went and figured out a way to desynch into blizzard from a whiffed dtilt.

Eventually you shouldn't ever need to look up desynchs. You shouldn't have to study them and figure out how to do them. You shouldn't have to think about new things to do or crazy things. You will just be able to DO all of these things and it will just feel like you are telling your character to walk forward. You should make desynching as important as knowing how to move your character effectively. You should be in the middle of a match and be able to desynch from crouching having never done or tried or heard of it before just because you know your character THAT well(I've done this btw lol hence the example). Just..learn IC's. Learn the character well enough and you won't have to put thought into things like desynching, it will just seem like moving to you.

*disclaimer: Please don't turn this into anything negative. I'm not telling you how you should play, just telling you how I approach the game. Take what you want from it.

ch33s3 · Nov 18, 2010

Awesome post Hylian. I'm mobile at the moment, and will edit when I get home with some more detailed comments.

EDIT: Mmkay, home now.

Hylian, I completely agree. Desynching needs to be natural, as part of your flow as you go. Everytime I play and accidentally desynch, I take note of what happened, so I can apply it later. One of my favorite applications of a desynch is to desynch when your opponent dies, taunt, and run away from Nana, so that she runs behind you, but is desynched, then you can bust out an unexpected move that often catches them offguard.

Rubberbandman · Nov 18, 2010

Withdrawing all my negative comments from my mind for now, Hylian is right.

Sometimes I made up baits and things in my mind during friendlies saying "this probably won't work but hey worth a shot" where I get grab set ups. We really overlook the smallest details of our character and miss out on a lot of exploits. I mean, if the opponent is just going to play gay and not smart, why not just outsmart their homosexuality?

2-DJeff · Nov 23, 2010

being dysnched all natrually isnt hard florida IC players do this all the time its like 2nd nature its not even hard... yall act like its a SAT test lol all other IC do is try to get the grab only.. its not even about running in there to get the grab its about dysnch setups to getting the grab like down b by nana to grab vice versa or ice black to grab or nana fair to grab... its hella ways to setup grabs with IC its not even fair in some ways.. If FL ic players go to tourney more we would record and show you but just watch kakera he dose it the best tha any1 else in the world and thats y hes the best IC cause he has better execution its just that he dosnt attend tourneys as much hes gonna be passed up soon by some1 but thats not till awhile from now

ch33s3 · Nov 23, 2010

2-DJeff said:
being dysnched all natrually isnt hard florida IC players do this all the time its like 2nd nature its not even hard... yall act like its a SAT test lol all other IC do is try to get the grab only.. its not even about running in there to get the grab its about dysnch setups to getting the grab like down b by nana to grab vice versa or ice black to grab or nana fair to grab... its hella ways to setup grabs with IC its not even fair in some ways.. If FL ic players go to tourney more we would record and show you but just watch kakera he dose it the best tha any1 else in the world and thats y hes the best IC cause he has better execution its just that he dosnt attend tourneys as much hes gonna be passed up soon by some1 but thats not till awhile from now

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? More importantly, do you have any idea what this thread is about?

Teh Future · Nov 23, 2010

2-DJeff said:
being dysnched all natrually isnt hard florida IC players do this all the time its like 2nd nature its not even hard... yall act like its a SAT test lol all other IC do is try to get the grab only.. its not even about running in there to get the grab its about dysnch setups to getting the grab like down b by nana to grab vice versa or ice black to grab or nana fair to grab... its hella ways to setup grabs with IC its not even fair in some ways.. If FL ic players go to tourney more we would record and show you but just watch kakera he dose it the best tha any1 else in the world and thats y hes the best IC cause he has better execution its just that he dosnt attend tourneys as much hes gonna be passed up soon by some1 but thats not till awhile from now

omg this is amaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing.

<3

to be fair cheese florida does have beaches and warm weather so he must be good at smash

)))))))

2-DJeff · Nov 23, 2010

ch33s3 said:
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? More importantly, do you have any idea what this thread is about?

yea cheese i do you need to chill out and stop being a bezzy when other ppl talk im over here trying to help out as a smasher and ur still being salty over my Wifi win against u its not that serious its wifi get over it dang. I do know whats going on ive been working on this type of stuff way b4 i even came into these boards. so dont disrespect me cause no1 was disrespecting you at first.. if i didnt know what it was i wouldnt have said anything all americans do with desync is I wall and ice block like come on you got way more options then B and down b. i get the whole idea with dash dance into shield to nana ice block to chase.. i know that stuff but theres way more to it because these charaters are so complex. Just because i dnt reecord myself and go to major tourneys like you cause i got rugby and football practice dosnt mean im a bad player its just takes me less practice then you to get good.

Teh Future · Nov 23, 2010

some top quality **** right herr

Smoom77 · Nov 23, 2010

I'm with cheese here

Luxor · Nov 23, 2010

e_alert said:
I love how when he wasnt in the smashlab you were like "**** off with my username" rofl.

...This guy knows.

Rubberbandman · Nov 23, 2010

With the speech problem he has going, I think he's just trolling us.

DeLux · Nov 23, 2010

2-DJeff said:
being dysnched all natrually isnt hard florida IC players do this all the time its like 2nd nature its not even hard... yall act like its a SAT test lol all other IC do is try to get the grab only.. its not even about running in there to get the grab its about dysnch setups to getting the grab like down b by nana to grab vice versa or ice black to grab or nana fair to grab... its hella ways to setup grabs with IC its not even fair in some ways.. If FL ic players go to tourney more we would record and show you but just watch kakera he dose it the best tha any1 else in the world and thats y hes the best IC cause he has better execution its just that he dosnt attend tourneys as much hes gonna be passed up soon by some1 but thats not till awhile from now

Ok, did you read the OP and what it was suggesting? It was suggesting BETTER ways to desync setup that I'm sure NOBODY does in matches. Even Kakera doesn't use most of these in any video I've seen. IMO, he uses a lot of the effective, but not ideal setups that are pretty common. The one's I'm advocating have superior frame and spacing trades, and should replace the old ones except in the case of mixups or as Hylian writes with the baiting tactics.

From a content standpoint, this is indicative that you don't really understand the point:

2-DJeff said:
i get the whole idea with dash dance into shield to nana ice block to chase.. i know that stuff but theres way more to it because these charaters are so complex.

I just wrote an entire post on why you should NOT do that. I agree there's more stuff, so rather than attempting to shoot down attempts to further the gameplay by saying Florida does it better, please say how you guys do it better and help out.

Rubberbandman · Nov 23, 2010

Lux loves getting trolled hard obviously.

2-DJeff · Nov 24, 2010

I am not trolling, and since everyone is really having trouble with my slang in text then ill present myself better to you. Would you like me to point out some video of kakera in comparison to American IC players?

Sieguest · Nov 24, 2010

2-DJeff said:
I am not trolling, and since everyone is really having trouble with my slang in text then ill present myself better to you. Would you like me to point out some video of kakera in comparison to American IC players?

Go ahead. I won't disagree that Kakera may do some things different from American ICs and that there are somethings that we may learn from him and vice versa, but I don't even think Kakera uses what Lux is suggesting (or anything better) on a regular basis. This is just based from all of the youtube vids I've watched.

2-DJeff · Nov 24, 2010

Guest❃ said:
Go ahead. I won't disagree that Kakera may do some things different from American ICs and that there are somethings that we may learn from him and vice versa, but I don't even think Kakera uses what Lux is suggesting (or anything better) on a regular basis. This is just based from all of the youtube vids I've watched.

No i totally agree with Lux is suggesting i was just going off of what i do and what ive seen from Kakera and Florida IC players. Dont get me wrong you guys are really good. I was just trying to help in improving the IC meta game from what I know but, to cheese that's illegal because hes the best IC in the world and randoms cant give suggestions(sarcasm). Just trying to help out with the desync Meta game if that's cool with you guys.

DeLux · Nov 24, 2010

The issue is, we already try to emulate Kakera. That's the current state of the metagame. I'm proposing something even more frame ideal what he's doing.

Kakera is brilliant. But he's not perfect. Huge distinction.

I'm fairly certain that we all know that a special frame trap is a good grab setup. Instead of saying, "Do what Kakera is doing," or "Do what I've seen of Florida IC Players", tell us what they do differently.

The issue shouldn't be that we have a hard time reading what you write. I understood just fine. Any attack as such is probably uncalled for. However, the substance is an issue.

For example, I posted frame tested techniques and listed where they were applicable.
Hylian listed many different desync options and when they were applicable.
That's constructive improvement.

Right now, you're just deconstructing and saying we're doing it wrong. Then saying "play like this player".

We've already established that it's either A. What we're already trying to do as some people are saying. Or B. There is even better than that style.

You should help us construct by listing specific aspects of the Florida IC game that is better than the current metagame.

/rant over

2-DJeff · Nov 24, 2010

(Lux) said:
The issue is, we already try to emulate Kakera. That's the current state of the metagame. I'm proposing something even more frame ideal what he's doing.

Kakera is brilliant. But he's not perfect. Huge distinction.

I'm fairly certain that we all know that a special frame trap is a good grab setup. Instead of saying, "Do what Kakera is doing," or "Do what I've seen of Florida IC Players", tell us what they do differently.

The issue shouldn't be that we have a hard time reading what you write. I understood just fine. Any attack as such is probably uncalled for. However, the substance is an issue.

For example, I posted frame tested techniques and listed where they were applicable.
Hylian listed many different desync options and when they were applicable.
That's constructive improvement.

Right now, you're just deconstructing and saying we're doing it wrong. Then saying "play like this player".

We've already established that it's either A. What we're already trying to do as some people are saying. Or B. There is even better than that style.

You should help us construct by listing specific aspects of the Florida IC game that is better than the current metagame.

/rant over

o ok i see what your saying.. we tend to watch how a character fights such as wario if im fighting wario i back forward back roll with popo to nanas blizzard and at the end of nanas blizzard i use Up air with popo for anti air and blizzard again wit nana unless wario wants to dodge be hind me then i use dsmash with nana. but im not trying to get into the whole MU thing basically choose what types of attack ***** the opposing character and try to use the best of it by desyncing. Making questions on this thread is also good if its ok with you because it makes explaining and learning easier for others. Im going to try to help in every way i can.

DeLux · Nov 24, 2010

2-DJeff said:
o ok i see what your saying.. we tend to watch how a character fights such as wario if im fighting wario i back forward back roll with popo to nanas blizzard and at the end of nanas blizzard i use Up air with popo for anti air and blizzard again wit nana unless wario wants to dodge be hind me then i use dsmash with nana. but im not trying to get into the whole MU thing basically choose what types of attack ***** the opposing character and try to use the best of it by desyncing. Making questions on this thread is also good if its ok with you because it makes explaining and learning easier for others. Im going to try to help in every way i can.

Based on what you're saying, it sounds like SND Rolling, which I agree isn't used much. Actually 00-Zero has been advocating alot of that especially for it's defensive properties.
If he doesn't post his videos of this soon, I'll do it for him.

2-DJeff · Nov 24, 2010

(Lux) said:
Based on what you're saying, it sounds like SND Rolling, which I agree isn't used much. Actually 00-Zero has been advocating alot of that especially for it's defensive properties.
If he doesn't post his videos of this soon, I'll do it for him.

whats SND rolling, and ill do that thing where u post my videos. i just got to by a new SD card because my bro sat on mines and broke it at GallaxFest. in the mean time i got a couple of questions in PM because this isn't the thread to ask them in

DeLux · Nov 24, 2010

During SND, Nana is put into an initial dash animation. During the frames that won't buffer shield but are after initial dash roll cancelling frames, it's possible to input a shield for popo. Since it's possible to shield, it's in theory possible to roll. Which is how you SND roll. When Nana comes out of dash animation, popo is rolling so she's free to do whatever while desynced. However, since popo moved, he's also dragging nana along because of the game sync physics. So you can do true retreating blizzards and stuff.

2-DJeff · Nov 24, 2010

(Lux) said:
During SND, Nana is put into an initial dash animation. During the frames that won't buffer shield but are after initial dash roll cancelling frames, it's possible to input a shield for popo. Since it's possible to shield, it's in theory possible to roll. Which is how you SND roll. When Nana comes out of dash animation, popo is rolling so she's free to do whatever while desynced. However, since popo moved, he's also dragging nana along because of the game sync physics. So you can do true retreating blizzards and stuff.

o yea you mean back dash to shield to nanas ice block? yea i do that i also back roll to nanas blizzard also. sorry the whole acronyms threw me off

DeLux · Nov 24, 2010

SND is different than the dash back. Popo actually doesn't dash in this scenario, only nana. I hate the dash back desync. A lot.

2-DJeff · Nov 24, 2010

(Lux) said:
SND is different than the dash back. Popo actually doesn't dash in this scenario, only nana. I hate the dash back desync. A lot.

ok im starting to understand alittle about what you were talking about before... Thanks alot Lux i really appreciate this and you helping me with the MK MU cheesse my apologizes... ima still try to get involved in this as much as possible

Deathfox30 · Nov 24, 2010

How bad is the dash delay desynch? I use it sometimes and it looks like it really confuses the opponent and usually nets me a grab.

If you press A and B at the same time, you can do a DA and IB with Nana instead of just jabbing.

Rubberbandman · Nov 24, 2010

okay so 2-DJeff, like Lux said, PLEASE stop comparing people's icies to everyone. especially when you haven't walked the walk and showed us your futuristic swag you claim to have. Just because you have your methods of doing things doesn't mean you should say to everyone "you're ALL doing it wrong, kakera is the one doing it right". I mean, I love kakera to death. If I could talk to him on skype I would be so happy. I love watching his matches and always learn something new. This is he lives in a dead region in japan (only 2 top players there) so he doesn't really get matches up like that.

TL;DR: If you like how they play, just say it, don't shove it down peoples throat. And don't be so cocky about FL **** when ya'll rarely show us your "future" ****.

2-DJeff · Nov 24, 2010

Rubberbandman said:
okay so 2-DJeff, like Lux said, PLEASE stop comparing people's icies to everyone. especially when you haven't walked the walk and showed us your futuristic swag you claim to have. Just because you have your methods of doing things doesn't mean you should say to everyone "you're ALL doing it wrong, kakera is the one doing it right". I mean, I love kakera to death. If I could talk to him on skype I would be so happy. I love watching his matches and always learn something new. This is he lives in a dead region in japan (only 2 top players there) so he doesn't really get matches up like that.

TL;DR: If you like how they play, just say it, don't shove it down peoples throat. And don't be so cocky about FL **** when ya'll rarely show us your "future" ****.

'walk the walk?'' swag?' wtf? man your cool(sarcasm). i just said my bad i thought this was about what attacks works and mix up of attack work and how to do it man chill guy i already talk to lux my bro. and its a video game man chill lol... im still going to get involved with this. and yeah i know he lives in a dead region that's why i said before he doesn't really attend tourneys. And do you really have to repeat what lux said after me saying my bad with "stop comparing IC' your just going of the same stuff he said. But in a different way. Just chill man i said my bad.

Smoom77 · Nov 24, 2010

Whahahahaha

Sieguest · Nov 24, 2010

Deathfox30 said:
How bad is the dash delay desynch? I use it sometimes and it looks like it really confuses the opponent and usually nets me a grab.

If you press A and B at the same time, you can do a DA and IB with Nana instead of just jabbing.

I wouldn't know.... I hardly ever use it. I suppose there is a time and place for it to try something different, but I'd rather take some other desyncs that accomplish the same job and come with a few more perks (such as DSC->turnaround or using a derivative of SND to change up the timings on your opponent). That's just my opinion though.

In other news... this thread is starting to get redundant. >.>

DeLux · Nov 24, 2010

i am going to make videos of all the desyncs when I get the chance and put it on my YT channel. Just so we're all on the same page as far as the terms we use go.

TheSaintKai · Nov 24, 2010

Lux, I hate to be THAT GUY,
but can you explain the inputs for the first desync you put in the OP?
"Retreating run > DSC > buffer a turnaround desync (you know you do this correctly when only nana makes a dash animation while popo simply turns around > shield drop with popo > Nana special > Chase"
The part I'm don't know how to do is the turnaround desync, do I just push the stick smoothly to halfway between the center and the direction I wish to go?
Here's what I'm looking for:
Dash left, during the dash, tap shield, ....?

ch33s3 · Nov 24, 2010

TheSaintKai said:
Lux, I hate to be THAT GUY,
but can you explain the inputs for the first desync you put in the OP?
"Retreating run > DSC > buffer a turnaround desync (you know you do this correctly when only nana makes a dash animation while popo simply turns around > shield drop with popo > Nana special > Chase"
The part I'm don't know how to do is the turnaround desync, do I just push the stick smoothly to halfway between the center and the direction I wish to go?
Here's what I'm looking for:
Dash left, during the dash, tap shield, ....?

Dash, shield, release shield, tap opposite direction from which you are facing, special, whatever.

Advancing the Desync Metagame

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