Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion: Snake (55:45 Snake)

SosK said:

TL:Snake matchup confirmed for 100:0 just punch him in the head until you win

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Thanks Saucekay

MU Summary:

Treat Snake like he is DDD (Keep Snake the hell away from you).
This MU requires both characters to pay attention to each other and their projectiles. For TL, he has to watch out for Snake's C4, his nades and Snake himself. This MU will take time if it is played correctly. Patience is key.

Toon Link should be trying to attack snake at a safe distance during a Majority of the match. A problem that some TLs may come across in this MU is the fact that they will have to actually go inside of snakes zone in order to get the kill. The key is to remain patient still and to try and get snake in the air before getting the kill. Trying to force the kill on the ground means that you will more than likely eat 21% in the face from Snakes knee or TL will suffer from down throw because of his terrible roll. With that being said, TL should continue to camp (even if he is losing). Only attack snake when you are positive that you will be able to hit snake safely. Full Hop Nair (while being spaced still) is the best aerial to use on snake.

Toon Link should be using his Zair and all of his Aerials on snake while he is retreating away from snake. If you are lucky enough to be able to Juggle snake with a bair string, then you will rack a good 20-30% on snake.

Toon Link won't be able to kill a good snake with DI until he is around 150% or so. Snake will be able to kill TL around 110-120% or so.

DO NOT BECOME PREDICTABLE. This is probably the biggest issue in this Match Up for Toon Link. The snake players at one point will realize that they need to try and catch TL as he is coming down from the ground instead of trying to camp TL back. At this point, they will be looking for patterns. Remember to mix it up or snake will be able to catch you and he will easily get a good amount of damage with down throw (An example of this can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gn6t44RlTE&t=3m10s). Toon Link isn't completely helpless when he is in this position but it is better to just try to not be grabbed at all. Like stated earlier "Teat snake like he is DDD.

This MU becomes less stressful once TL takes the first kill. He has know problem racking up damage at all. This Match (if played correctly) should go to 6-8 minutes unfortunately.

This Match Up Could be close to even if snake didn't have the kill power and the ability to just completely screw us over with down throw.

Moves to watch out for: Down Throw, F-Tilt, Up Tilt.
Useful Moves: Bair, Nair, Up Air, Zair, All of our Projectiles.


Stages: FD/SV/PS1/Delfino/BF

Ban: Halberd/Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar


Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4BiE...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBVw1xUcvNk

5/5

tink just has to play really gay/patient

inb4 bad tinks whine and disagree with me because they're bad

napZzz said:

5/5

tink just has to play really gay/patient

inb4 bad tinks whine and disagree with me because they're bad

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This post approved by DR.SMIRKZ

Ugh... Playing against Toon Link is seriously a headache.

I have played a couple of styles of TL. The grounded TL I think is the one doing it wrong. On the ground, he is more likely to get hit by grenades and it is easier to track his projectiles. By staying in the air a lot by using his FH and 2nd jump it becomes a lot harder to deal with TL. From a single FH, unless snake has something on a platform or uses his mortar slide, snake cannot reach TL. All the while, TL can hit snake from awkward angles with bombs and boomerangs. Even z-air and aerials if snake gets in too close trying to hit TL in landing. The air mobility TL has also makes it difficult to deal with TL as he can easily go for a ledge and start ledge camping to some degree of effectiveness. The mix-ups in the air are enough to ruin our camping game.

The time I think TL fails is when he has to go for a kill. It will take 120% at least I think before usmash will start killing. 150% until attacks like Fair can kill and higher still until his other aerials like Bair, dsmash start killing.

I think it takes more than 120%...

I dunno, I always end up taking my friend to 200% before killing him with a Bair xD. Usmash and all the other stuff tends to get me tilted =.=.

i don't know if this helps at all, but I recently uploaded a match of me playing against a Toon Link.

I don't know the MU well, since that the only T.Link player in my state but maybe it will help, idk.



Forgive me if this post was worthless.

toon link vastly out camps snake but snake has a much easier time getting kills. not to mention dgrab combos are a lot better because of toon links bad roll. his uptilt specially and his ftilt as well to some degree just hurts. bad.

i dont know this matchup too well. but camp hard and abuse his bulkiness with bomb combos and that sort to get kills.

What stages should a TL take Snake to? and what stages should we ban.

Cause I usually take him PS1 cause I can camp him better there, the other stage I try to take him is to smashville for some reason I kinda feel confident there and the moving platform helps me run away.

I'd say take him to FD or somewhere big, and ban Smashville.

Snake can put his C4 onto the moving platform. Hits under it and all that.

ban lylat and yoshis

take him to bf or fd. camp ur balls off

bf is really good cause snake cant get u off the platforms if ur camping smartly.

at the most id give it 55:45 snakes favor jus because he kills so easy.

napZzz said:

5/5

tink just has to play really gay/patient

inb4 bad tinks whine and disagree with me because they're bad

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ur wrong

10wronganswers

I'd imagine gnes' TL is, indeed, terrible

why am i even in here tho

FD, SV and PS1 are stages that I would try to take snake to

I usually ban Halberd (first), lylat, YI.

I don't think TLs have much trouble on any other stage vs snake. The only snake I know that does well on RC is Ally, and even then, TL SURELY has a way to out gay snake on this stage.

greatness_007 said:

ur wrong

10wronganswers

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says the snake main

It's...clearly not 50/50...
Because Toon Link can spike.

This MU is pretty gay for both sides. TL can combo and camp snake untill his balls fall off, but snake can kill WAY quicker. All tink has to do is stay the hell away, throw bombs and space with zair. All that isnt too difficult against snake, as long as you make good reads. When snake uses upB, he's extreamly vaulnerable, and is in risk of loosing a stock fairly easily.
Stay away and camp your tiny green tunic-wearin' *** off.
50/50

napZzz said:

says the snake main

Click to expand...

That knows the matchup

idk if bf is rly a good stage to fight a snake, maybe its cuz i was training vs ally but fawk he knows that stage very well, tbh i liked to fight him on delfino, halberd

Wrap up any final thoughts on the match up please.

I will write an analysis' on the MU after finals.

FD is toon's best stage to fight snake. Its large, and has no platforms that snake can be gay with. SV isnt too bad either, but it has that moving platform that can either be good or bad, jus depends on how well TL controls the stage. A good counterpick (if you use it well) is rainbow cruise, or even PS1, just NOT BF.

I think this is how you play the game against snake:
1º - Get the lead. If you start losing the stock you will lose. Camp him, and don't try to be risk at the early times of the battle.
2º - Now that he has 2 stocks, it's the time to take him to the air. How? Bombs (boomerang can help). Put the guy in the air and raise his % alot, with bairs, and aerials. We got nice aerials, and we can **** snake in the air just like a lot of characters, just gotta watch snake's bair. It is annoying and strong. Now you will probaly loose your first stock, so it might be better that you have your oponnent at least at 50% (is not good, but at least...) Then it's time to pick the vantage and go to the kill!
Repeat the steps on the last stock xD

For killing, make him airdodge and read that. Fair *****. Since snake doesn't has a fast fair, just force the airdodge and punish it with the fair Usmash can punish airdodges too, but I think utilt can do it better on ground. Uair is good for cutting the airdodge, setup it with something else, and you can do a nice job.
You can kill with bair, but this will take SO LONG, but if you prefer full safety...

This mathcup wold be easier if we could kill better. Snake will survive a lot, and if you try to kill him while you are in ground... ftilt will come. So it's boring to kill, and may take a lot of time and patience.
That's why snake is 60-40 toon link...

Yea, the sarcasm was uncalled for.

This is probably one of the most challengings match ups for Toon Link.

~mjg~ said:

Yea, the sarcasm was uncalled for.

This is probably one of the most challengings match ups for Toon Link.

Click to expand...

I think falco is much more difficult, but thats probably jus my personal mu

It's definitely 60-40. Toon Link outcamps Snake, but not to a ridiculous extend. He racks damage on him pretty well, but Snake evens with with little effort. When it comes to killing, Snake HAS to mess up or he's got this.

Its either 70/30 razer or 65/35 jerm.

But even if we fight =]

Full hop nair works better than short hop nair imo (spaced obviously, unless you wanna eat an up tilt).

Full hop nair puts you in the air, so he has a chance to come at you with mortars, or grab your landing or something, but you also have time to get some bombs/boomerang out to run interference. Where as with short hop nair, you can easily be dash attacked after the shield hit.

Just poke at snake on the ground...I wouldn't recommend trying to follow up after a zair, just play it safe and do things he can't punish (easily).

In the air, you obviously wanna keep snake up there, and alot of snakes have airdodge habits because its such a bad place for him to be, so try to get a feel for those. However, be wary of snake's bair, it comes out really fast and has a stupid hitbox.

and uhh....snake offstage is free afk

tink should camp his heart out as much as possible, dont even approach even if you're losing, thats what snake wants/needs. If you're gonna have to try and fight up close, make sure you're at least 70% confident on whatever move you're gonna go for...stick to retreating aerials or just running away, when unsure of what to do in a situation its best to just reposition yourself and try again, remember how fast tink is

make sure you just watch carefully for nades...its not hard to get past them, especially if you can use platforms. Remember, if you're unsure of the situation, try to avoid going into a trap and just retreat if you can to a safer spot, whether its a ledge, platform, or just getting to the other side of a stage, etc...

DO NOT FORCE THE KILL! It will come to you at some point, snake may live forever, but instead of risking smash attacks just stick to use aerials until you can put snake in the air (best place to abuse him) and try to kill him at some point with uair or some ****, or if you can manage a read with an fsmash/usmash or w/e.

Snake may live to high percents and this is something tinks often complain about, talking about things like snakes heavy damage output on ftilt. But the thing is, if you're playing this right and sticking to the air/running away, the only time you'll be getting tilted is if you **** up your spacing/get read...so its important to mix it up and sometimes just run away if snake gets close...once again dont risk anything you dont need to worry about.

Snake also has a hard time killing a campy tink, its hard to hit one down who's camping properly, so you should be able to live to higher percents generally...a timeout is very viable in this mu ,and if the chance comes up, go for it.

I still believe this is close to even provided tink plays it right....they can balance each other out and really **** **** up, snake has to rely on tink being predictable/making mistakes...if he cant get into your head he shouldn't be winning

5/5

ban- halberd/cruise (no joke)

cp-bf/delfino

(not very sure on the stages...I dont feel like they can really abuse each other too often, I think its best to stick to neutrals or a stage the snakes playstyle might not work out on....and snake ***** on cruise.......=])

55:45 Snake: By MN and MJG

Treat Snake like he is DDD (Keep Snake the hell away from you).
This MU requires both characters to pay attention to each other and their projectiles. For TL, he has to watch out for Snake's C4, his nades and Snake himself. This MU will take time if it is played correctly. Patience is key.

Toon Link should be trying to attack snake at a safe distance during a Majority of the match. A problem that some TLs may come across in this MU is the fact that they will have to actually go inside of snakes zone in order to get the kill. The key is to remain patient still and to try and get snake in the air before getting the kill. Trying to force the kill on the ground means that you will more than likely eat 21% in the face from Snakes knee or TL will suffer from down throw because of his terrible roll. With that being said, TL should continue to camp (even if he is losing). Only attack snake when you are positive that you will be able to hit snake safely. Full Hop Nair (while being spaced still) is the best aerial to use on snake.

Toon Link should be using his Zair and all of his Aerials on snake while he is retreating away from snake. If you are lucky enough to be able to Juggle snake with a bair string, then you will rack a good 20-30% on snake.

Toon Link won't be able to kill a good snake with DI until he is around 150% or so. Snake will be able to kill TL around 110-120% or so.

DO NOT BECOME PREDICTABLE. This is probably the biggest issue in this Match Up for Toon Link. The snake players at one point will realize that they need to try and catch TL as he is coming down from the ground instead of trying to camp TL back. At this point, they will be looking for patterns. Remember to mix it up or snake will be able to catch you and he will easily get a good amount of damage with down throw (An example of this can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gn6t44RlTE&t=3m10s). Toon Link isn't completely helpless when he is in this position but it is better to just try to not be grabbed at all. Like stated earlier "Teat snake like he is DDD.

This MU becomes less stressful once TL takes the first kill. He has know problem racking up damage at all. This Match (if played correctly) should go to 6-8 minutes unfortunately.

This Match Up Could be close to even if snake didn't have the kill power and the ability to just completely screw us over with down throw.

Moves to watch out for: Down Throw, F-Tilt, Up Tilt.
Useful Moves: Bair, Nair, Up Air, Zair, All of our Projectiles.

Stages: FD/SV/PS1/Delfino/BF

Ban: Halberd/Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar


Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4BiE-LIHMU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBVw1xUcvNk