The formula for stage bans: how many should you use? A guide for TOs

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 21, 2010

To start this off, let's make a (false) assumption. Metaknight is broken in every matchup on Norfair and Brinstar, but not on any other stage. Essentially, he will automatically win on his counterpick every single time. This is broken. This means that you have to ban one of the stages. Having both of them legal is completely degenerate. Right?

...Or you could add more stage bans.

The problem with most "borderline" stages is that they're broken. Not in every matchup, not even in a majority of the matchups, but in a few matchups. Part of the problem of the MLG ruleset is that MK or Wario can basically say, "Brinstar or Norfair, pick your poison" and get a ridiculous advantage on their counterpick that borders on broken. But are the stages really broken? Is Falco-Diddy broken/severely polarized on Brinstar? What about Marth-ICs? Is MK-Snake heavily polar on Japes? Is Pikachu-MK ******** on PTAD? Beyond the obvious candidates (to return to the previous examples, MK and Wario), the stages are nothing beyond moderate/strong counterpicks.

You'll find this phenomenon all the time. Certain matchups and/or characters are broken, but for the vast majority, they're nothing more than normal counterpicks, or even one of the most neutral stages in the matchup! Green Greens. Norfair. Brinstar. Final Destination. Jungle Japes. Port Town Aero Dive. Luigi's Mansion Et cetera. They're problematic, but only problematic when you can't ban all of the stages where a character is too good. So what to do? There's a simple method to keep balance in rounds 2 and 3, and keep the hardcore counterpicks, which are usually drastically different from most other stages and therefore add a lot of required skill/adaptation.

Step 1: Find all the stages that are known as problematic as far as counterpicking advantages go, verify their status as such. Keep in mind that here, we are referring to stages that (almost) uniformly give one character
Step 2: Find out for which characters each stage has ridiculous advantages, check the overlaps
Step 3: Stage bans are equal to the highest number of overlaps.

Let's do this with the following (halfway-liberal) stagelist:

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium 2
Norfair
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise

Step 1: Norfair, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise Green Greens, Pictochat, Jungle Japes, Final Destination

Step 2: Norfair: MK, G&W, Wario, Pikachu.
Brinstar: MK, Wario, Ness.
Rainbow Cruise: MK (VERY questionable)
Green Greens: DK (questionable), DDD (questionable), G&W, am I forgetting anyone?
Pictochat: Diddy Kong (questionable).
Jungle Japes: Falco, DK, Ness/Lucas? (questionable).
FD: Ice Climbers, Falco/Diddy (questionable), DDD (questionable, only in certain matchups)

Step 3: Matches:
MK (Brinstar, Norfair, RC (?): 2 or 3)
G&W: (Norfair, Green Greens: 2)
Wario: (Norfair, Brinstar: 2)
Pikachu: (Norfair: 1)
Ness: (Brinstar, JJ?: 1/2?)
DK (Green Greens (?), Jungle Japes: 2)
DDD (Green Greens (?), FD (?): 1.5 (because it's only in certain matchups))
Diddy Kong: (Pictochat, FD (?): 2)
Falco: (Jungle Japes, FD: 2)
Lucas: (JJ?: 0/1?)
ICs: (FD: 1)

Highest number is 2 (or 3, if you really want to count MK as broken on RC-he really isn't except in matchups where he ***** on his counterpick no matter what), so there's your stage ban count.

Now, I suppose most of you are asking yourself, why? Why not just ban the stages outright?
Depth. As said above, the stages are hardly ever broken or hardcore counterpicks, only in a few choice matchups. This method leaves the stage open to the matchups where it is not broken. Furthermore, it encourages having multiple mains/secondaries, so that if you get all of the "broken" stages for your main banned, you can switch to your secondary and abuse that. It forces players to know the stages, know the matchups that function differently on the stages, and encourages knowing multiple characters well.

A secondary effect is that characters with lots of hardcore counterpicks, while not getting a free win on their counterpick, will get another (far less game-breaking) return-while on a liberal stagelist with 3 stage bans, MK will still have to take ICs to Frigate or Delfino, MK can ban FD, SV, and BF against the ICs. It still rewards hardcore counterpicks, but not in as much of a broken way.

Another question I'm likely to hear is, "why is it right to rebalance the system like this?" Well... Why have a stage ban at all? The existence of, and number of stage bans is completely arbitrary. There's no real reason to have any particular number (like the timer). So why not provide them in such a way that it rebalances what our counterpick system innately breaks?

Tesh · Nov 21, 2010

Its getting to the point where it seems like you just want to have stages legal, but not for certain characters. Like RC legal, but not for metaknight. Green Greens legal but not for DDD.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 21, 2010

Well... yeah, that's kinda completely the point. The stages are completely legit, it's just that one or two chars completely wreck the game on them. Do you think there would be ANY qualms to banning MK if Brinstar, Norfair, RC, and PTAD were the only stages in the game?

BSP · Nov 21, 2010

You should mention Sonic on pictochat

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 21, 2010

It depends, for stages like PTAD and Norfair there are more issues than just MK, so getting support to remove them is more plausible. It's why I advocate them be better of banned than being legal.

If a stage is so far over as a hardcore counter pick where the stage itself is dictating who is good or not, I'm taking about extreme cases not Cruise, Japes, or Brinstar etc., that stage is better off gone.

Even if they can lock you into a **** CP stage with pocket characters, Ice Climbers on FD, if it's possible to beat them, then there isn't an issue.

Tesh · Nov 21, 2010

Speaking of pocket characters. What if I main MK and 2nd DDD.
I win game 1 with MK, I lose on your CP. You ban RC and Brinstar. BANG DDD on Green Greens.

Raziek · Nov 21, 2010

Red Ryu said:
If a stage is so far over as a hardcore counter pick where the stage itself is dictating who is good or not, I'm taking about extreme cases not Cruise, Japes, or Brinstar etc., that stage is better off gone.

Even if they can lock you into a **** CP stage with pocket characters, Ice Climbers on FD, if it's possible to beat them, then there isn't an issue.

Norfair doesn't do this, except against Wario, and debatably MK. (And only if they play REEEEEALLY gay) That's the WHOLE POINT of having more stage bans.

Personally, I think two is plenty, leaving the only character who really steps over the line as MK, and that problem already exists with one ban anyway.

@Tesh - Then you deserve your advantage for maining two characters? What kind of question is that? xD

Ghostbone · Nov 21, 2010

Tesh said:
Speaking of pocket characters. What if I main MK and 2nd DDD.
I win game 1 with MK, I lose on your CP. You ban RC and Brinstar. BANG DDD on Green Greens.

BANG G&W vs your Dedede on Green Greens.
Don't bring secondaries into this because it works both ways.

Tesh · Nov 21, 2010

The point is, if you are conceding the point that these stages are broken for certain characters, you can't avoid the situation popping up. Your adding additional bans doesn't change anything if you use it as a justification to add more stages that people HAVE to ban to compete.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 21, 2010

Raziek said:
Norfair doesn't do this, except against Wario, and debatably MK. (And only if they play REEEEEALLY gay) That's the WHOLE POINT of having more stage bans.

Personally, I think two is plenty, leaving the only character who really steps over the line as MK, and that problem already exists with one ban anyway.

@Tesh - Then you deserve your advantage for maining two characters? What kind of question is that? xD

From what I've talked to Wario mains, this stage gives Wario the ability to make multiple match-ups impossible for the opponent. Marth and MK are his only bad match-ups that have a sliver of hope to catch him, Peach and DDD are too slow to catch him here. There are a few of his even match-ups and advantaged match-ups which can catch him, but a huge chunk of the cast is in deep trouble.

I brought this up before in the stage strike thread just like I again, saying you can ban it is poor reasoning. If it's on your list, your saying it's acceptable for the cast to play on it. Time-outs are the same reason Hannebow is banned, and the same characters who would do it there can do it here.

The platforms are layed out so the highest ones are on opposite sides of the stage. This makes it extremely difficult to catch Wario or anyone else who attempts to tine-out.

The layout is what makes it possible, combined with the fact characters can go under the center platform and run around back and forth mixing up between going high from top to top, or going under.

Raziek · Nov 21, 2010

Red Ryu said:
From what I've talked to Wario mains, this stage gives Wario the ability to make multiple match-ups impossible for the opponent. Marth and MK are his only bad match-ups that have a sliver of hope to catch him, Peach and DDD are too slow to catch him here. There are a few of his even match-ups and advantaged match-ups which can catch him, but a huge chunk of the cast is in deep trouble.

I brought this up before in the stage strike thread just like I again, saying you can ban it is poor reasoning. If it's on your list, your saying it's acceptable for the cast to play on it. Time-outs are the same reason Hannebow is banned, and the same characters who would do it there can do it here.

The platforms are layed out so the highest ones are on opposite sides of the stage. This makes it extremely difficult to catch Wario or anyone else who attempts to tine-out.

The layout is what makes it possible, combined with the fact characters can go under the center platform and run around back and forth mixing up between going high from top to top, or going under.

First, I like how you ignored the caveat I posted:

Norfair doesn't do this, except against Wario

Second, timeouts are NOT why Hanenbow is banned. Circle-camping is why Hanenbow is banned. Norfair is not circle camping, it's just strong run-away, since AS YOU ADMITTED, several characters can beat it. Are you going to ban PS1 because it encourages time-outs? Are you going to ban Brinstar because Wario can run away there too?

So many of you seem to be looking for any excuse to sacrifice depth from this game. Did you read the OP at all? The WHOLE POINT OF IT was to say, "Don't cut depth if the problem can be solved by an extra stage ban."

Why would we ban Norfair if everyone but Wario and MK are FINE there, and there are enough stage bans to prevent a "pick your poison" scenario in tournament?

Before anyone brings up Shadow Moses, those walls are PERMANENT, and cause wide-spread problems for MOST of the cast, not just Dedede.

fkacyan · Nov 21, 2010

You should use a CP system that isn't a giant pile of ****.

:D

On a serious note, the more diverse your stagelist the more bans you have to give because the odds of your opponent having a free hard counter go up. The most liberal stagelist under the current ****ty system should have 2 bans at least if not 3.

EDIT: Raziek, diversity = depth is a loose correlation at best and there are several other factors that influence depth. In the event that a character is too powerful on three stages, if you only get two bans, you're losing depth by having those stages available. Similarly, if a character is only viable on three stages, you lose depth by letting somebody ban all of them.

It's amazing what a double blind pick would do to alleviate these issues.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 21, 2010

Raziek said:
First, I like how you ignored the caveat I posted:

Second, timeouts are NOT why Hanenbow is banned. Circle-camping is why Hanenbow is banned. Norfair is not circle camping, it's just strong run-away, since AS YOU ADMITTED, several characters can beat it. Are you going to ban PS1 because it encourages time-outs? Are you going to ban Brinstar because Wario can run away there too?

So many of you seem to be looking for any excuse to sacrifice depth from this game. Did you read the OP at all? The WHOLE POINT OF IT was to say, "Don't cut depth if the problem can be solved by an extra stage ban."

Why would we ban Norfair if everyone but Wario and MK are FINE there, and there are enough stage bans to prevent a "pick your poison" scenario in tournament?

Before anyone brings up Shadow Moses, those walls are PERMANENT, and cause wide-spread problems for MOST of the cast, not just Dedede.

I didn't ignore it, because it's false to think Wario and MK are the only ones who can abuse Norfair.

Hanenbow and Norfair are banned for the same reason, time-outs and run away are too strong, Hanenbow is worse of the two of course. Extra bans are no excuse to leave stages legal that are unfit to even play on.

A stage that makes a character gain unwinable advantages against anyone who is slower/can't keep up or can't handle another planking with 6 ledges is a stage that shouldn't have an business influencing the stagelist.

Even if there are character who are fine here like Link vs Snake or something like that, it doesn't matter when that stage is offering a broken influence on the stagelist. We only gain by removing it.

ぱみゅ · Nov 22, 2010

But only 2-3 characters can abuse Norfair, while Hanenbrow is by most the cast due to its shape.
can't you see the diference between exploit and overcentralization yet?

SuSa · Nov 22, 2010

Do I have to grab my ****ty "Here's the circle" for Norfair?

Arguing that "lava interferes with it"... well what about the Pokémon one? Hmm? Theres attacks happening now and than and other things that "interfere" with it's circle. (Inb4itsbannedforotherthingslikeslowingtimeandstuff)

Luigi's Mansion you can actually remove the circle and defend that last little house (or use it as bait) to prevent it coming back. Norfair actually says for a little while"Okay. No more circle til I go away" and it's rarely enough to actually prevent the circle camping. It just means for maybe 20~ seconds I'll actually have to fight my opponent. *rolls eyes*

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 22, 2010

kyokoro_pamuyo said:
But only 2-3 characters can abuse Norfair, while Hanenbrow is by most the cast due to its shape.
can't you see the diference between exploit and overcentralization yet?

I don't see how it matters how many can abuse it, when those that do make it near or pretty much unwinnable for more than half the cast.

The same issue I have with the, you can ban it arguement, is the fact you can ban broken stages as well.

SuSa · Nov 22, 2010

Isn't over-centralizing "This cuts out 80% of every option. Pick Marth/Wario/Meta Knight to win." kind of... degenerate? It's not "do this or win" - but over-centralizing is close enough.

When it turns into "pick one of the... five or so characters that can handle it... somewhat.. or lose." isn't that warrant enough to ban it?

DDD's infinites are not banned because they aren't over-centralizing. You can pick 32~ (well I guess now it's like 27~) different members of the cast.... 27 is nowhere near overcentralizing.... but when it becomes 4-5?

Food for thought.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 22, 2010

Red Ryu said:
It depends, for stages like PTAD and Norfair there are more issues than just MK, so getting support to remove them is more plausible. It's why I advocate them be better of banned than being legal.

If a stage is so far over as a hardcore counter pick where the stage itself is dictating who is good or not, I'm taking about extreme cases not Cruise, Japes, or Brinstar etc., that stage is better off gone.

Even if they can lock you into a **** CP stage with pocket characters, Ice Climbers on FD, if it's possible to beat them, then there isn't an issue.

Obviously if a stage is flat-out degenerate, there's no helping it. Some stages are simply degenerate and broken in virtually every matchup (flat walkoffs like SMI and GHZ, Circle Camping stages, etc.). And then there are the ones that are broken in one or two matchups... That's what we're aiming for. If a stage is a ridiculously potent counterpick because of characters on it, you can (with enough stage bans) still allow it for any other matchup in the game, as long as you give players the tools to avoid problems on it.

Like Norfair. Is norfair truly broken in any matchup outside of Wario and MK? No? Then this method keeps one of the most "out there" stages legit.

Tesh said:
Speaking of pocket characters. What if I main MK and 2nd DDD.
I win game 1 with MK, I lose on your CP. You ban RC and Brinstar. BANG DDD on Green Greens.

Well... You have two mains, you deserve an advantage for being able to do something not many players can at a high level. Furthermore, what if I secondary G&W? I hear "oh **** he's picking Green Greens, there's some shenanigans" and switch to my good secondary, or at least someone who can hold up against DDD or G&W on Green Greens.

Raziek · Nov 22, 2010

Red Ryu said:
I didn't ignore it, because it's false to think Wario and MK are the only ones who can abuse Norfair.

Hanenbow and Norfair are banned for the same reason, time-outs and run away are too strong, Hanenbow is worse of the two of course. Extra bans are no excuse to leave stages legal that are unfit to even play on.

A stage that makes a character gain unwinable advantages against anyone who is slower/can't keep up or can't handle another planking with 6 ledges is a stage that shouldn't have an business influencing the stagelist.

Even if there are character who are fine here like Link vs Snake or something like that, it doesn't matter when that stage is offering a broken influence on the stagelist.

This entire post is wrong.

First, MK and Wario are the only ones who have EVER been proven to be able to abuse Norfair, and I haven't even seen it done in tourney with MK.

Second, NO, THEY AREN'T. Hanenbow can be circle camped by a good portion of the cast. Norfair can NOT. Run-away strategies where you outspeed your opponent primarily as a facet of your CHARACTER are NOT broken. Is Falco broken because he can phantasm away from most the cast, making himself extremely difficult to catch?

This stage doesn't even give CLOSE to the amount of advantage you describe. If you think it's broken timeouts to the quality of Temple, PROVE IT WITH MULTIPLE CHARACTERS. MK counts for nothing because he breaks every stage. Wario can do it on one or two. Suggesting one can time someone out here just by being faster is laughable. That's like suggesting Marth can time ICs out on BF just because he jumps higher.

Extra bans ARE a reason to leave these stages legal. If they're 100% fine in every match-up EXCEPT those involving Wario, and there are enough stage bans to prevent Wario from getting the stage, it's COMPLETELY REASONABLE to keep it.

We only gain by removing it.

Yeah, and all that depth lost for every other matchup that can occur on this stage means nothing, right? Or the time and skill required to learn Norfair's patterns and spacing techniques? Yeah, those are all worthless, what was I thinking? Come on Ryu, this statement is just laughable.

Looks like I'm going to have to write up a big-*** post about why sacrificing depth for problems that are completely controllable through careful system management is an AWFUL IDEA. (Since adding extra bans also gives more strategic depth to the system. Your opponents can ban more stages, but so can you. Use them wisely.)

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 22, 2010

Raziek said:
This entire post is wrong.

First, MK and Wario are the only ones who have EVER been proven to be able to abuse Norfair, and I haven't even seen it done in tourney with MK.

Second, NO, THEY AREN'T. Hanenbow can be circle camped by a good portion of the cast. Norfair can NOT. Run-away strategies where you outspeed your opponent primarily as a facet of your CHARACTER are NOT broken. Is Falco broken because he can phantasm away from most the cast, making himself extremely difficult to catch?

This stage doesn't even give CLOSE to the amount of advantage you describe. If you think it's broken timeouts to the quality of Temple, PROVE IT WITH MULTIPLE CHARACTERS. MK counts for nothing because he breaks every stage. Wario can do it on one or two. Suggesting one can time someone out here just by being faster is laughable. That's like suggesting Marth can time ICs out on BF just because he jumps higher.

Extra bans ARE a reason to leave these stages legal. If they're 100% fine in every match-up EXCEPT those involving Wario, and there are enough stage bans to prevent Wario from getting the stage, it's COMPLETELY REASONABLE to keep it.

Yeah, and all that depth lost for every other matchup that can occur on this stage means nothing, right? Or the time and skill required to learn Norfair's patterns and spacing techniques? Yeah, those are all worthless, what was I thinking? Come on Ryu, this statement is just laughable.

Looks like I'm going to have to write up a big-*** post about why sacrificing depth for problems that are completely controllable through careful system management is an AWFUL IDEA. (Since adding extra bans also gives more strategic depth to the system. Your opponents can ban more stages, but so can you. Use them wisely.)

I already said it was tamer than Hanenbow, so saying I compared it to temple is silly.

The stage has the exact advantages I've been stating, like I said in the other thread, Wario vs DDD turns from a 4:6 in DDD favors to a 7:3 or worse in Wario's favor because of the stage, Peach suffers the same way.

Other characters? Pit can plank and camp here very effectively, he wouldn't be as bad as MK but it would be bad. Speed already broke it with Sonic.

This stage can help some characters, for example this is Link best stage. He loves how the layout is perfect for his camp game, people die vertically to his dair very early, and with whiplashing he won't die horizontally due to the multiple ledges on each side. Still doesn't change the fact characters break this stage in half.

Banning a stage is less bad than banning a character. Stage have some depth, but that depth is horribly limited by a couple of character that tear this stage in half. When this happens that will influence Cping and other factors.

It's purposefully abusive since people can and will carry pocket characters just to break this stage if you don't ban it, so people have to ban it. I don't care if this stage is fine for some characters, because all those character will lose to the ones who do break it.

Yink · Nov 22, 2010

You know I used to kind of hate Norfair but I really don't think it's broken. And this is something I really wanted to point out because well... :

Raziek said:
This stage doesn't even give CLOSE to the amount of advantage you describe. If you think it's broken timeouts to the quality of Temple, PROVE IT WITH MULTIPLE CHARACTERS. MK counts for nothing because he breaks every stage. Wario can do it on one or two. Suggesting one can time someone out here just by being faster is laughable. That's like suggesting Marth can time ICs out on BF just because he jumps higher.

Red Ryu said:
The stage has the exact advantages I've been stating, like I said in the other thread, Wario vs DDD turns from a 4:6 in DDD favors to a 7:3 or worse in Wario's favor because of the stage, Peach suffers the same way.

Other characters? Pit can plank and camp here very effectively, he wouldn't be as bad as MK but it would be bad. Speed already broke it with Sonic.

I'm sorry Ryu, but that's not proof. I think if it were to convince me (not saying I'm special or anything) I'd want to see matches of it being broken and abused by these guys. Do you have any for me to see?

Raziek · Nov 22, 2010

Red Ryu said:
I already said it was tamer than Hanenbow, so saying I compared it to temple is silly.

A stage that makes a character gain unwinable advantages against anyone who is slower/can't keep up or can't handle another planking with 6 ledges is a stage that shouldn't have an business influencing the stagelist.

Right, because all of a sudden every matchup is unwinnable against Wario? Prove it. Furthermore, most US tourneys have ledge-grab limits, so planking is hardly an unbeatable issue here.

The stage has the exact advantages I've been stating, like I said in the other thread, Wario vs DDD turns from a 4:6 in DDD favors to a 7:3 or worse in Wario's favor because of the stage, Peach suffers the same way.

You mean like how FD skews match-ups? Or Perhaps RC? It's a hard counter, that's the whole point. Wario picks a stage where he's difficult to grab, and can dance around Dedede using his airspeed. There's nothing degenerate about that.

Other characters? Pit can plank and camp here very effectively, he wouldn't be as bad as MK but it would be bad. Speed already broke it with Sonic.

Vids please. If the person he did it against was clearly doing it wrong, anecdotal evidence means little.

This stage can help some characters, for example this is Link best stage. He loves how the layout is perfect for his camp game, people die vertically to his dair very early, and with whiplashing he won't die horizontally due to the multiple ledges on each side. Still doesn't change the fact characters break this stage in half.

Banning a stage is less bad than banning a character. Stage have some depth, but that depth is horribly limited by a couple of character that tear this stage in half. When this happens that will influence Cping and other factors.

It's purposefully abusive since people can and will carry pocket characters just to break this stage if you don't ban it, so people have to ban it. I don't care if this stage is fine for some characters, because all those character will lose to the ones who do break it.

Yes, banning a stage is less bad than banning a character. You continue to ignore the fundamental point of the more bans though. If you have a reasonable amount of bans, the match-ups where the stage becomes too polar/degenerate NO LONGER OCCUR if the opponent has a brain. Depth for 300 matchups is saved at the cost of adding one ban?

If you carry enough characters to have access to that many stages with polar match-ups, you deserve your advantage. I've always thought about just how fun it would be to see an MK with pocket ICs. You ban RC and Brinstar? FD LOL.

What GOOD reason can you give me to sacrifice the depth an entire stage brings, when the fraction of match-ups it affects is LESS THAN 5%, and can be remedied by a slight modification to the system?

Time and time again, I've seen typically conservative players say, "I'd agree to this stage if we had two bans." AND I've tried all the "extra bans" shindig in practice. It WORKS. What do you have? Broken theory of "This is broken but I can't prove it."

Ghostbone · Nov 22, 2010

Red Ryu said:
The stage has the exact advantages I've been stating, like I said in the other thread, Wario vs DDD turns from a 4:6 in DDD favors to a 7:3 or worse in Wario's favor because of the stage, Peach suffers the same way.

I'm sorry but there you're assuming there is a "default" matchup between them. This is not the case. Every stage affects a matchup, and i could claim the opposite "Smashville gives Dedede a 4:6 advantage on wario when it should be 7:3 wario's advantage like on Norfair! BAN IT"
Just because 1 is more polar doesn't mean anything. It simply rewards his character traits without it being degenerate. (it's simply hard to hit him not impossible)

Raziek · Nov 22, 2010

ghostbone said:
I'm sorry but there you're assuming there is a "default" matchup between them. This is not the case. Every stage affects a matchup, and i could claim the opposite "Smashville gives Dedede a 4:6 advantage on wario when it should be 7:3 wario's advantage like on Norfair! BAN IT"
Just because 1 is more polar doesn't mean anything. It simply rewards his character traits without it being degenerate. (it's simply hard to hit him not impossible)

And this.

Thank you, Ghostbone. You're like my new favorite poster to join the stage discussion boards.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 22, 2010

Red Ryu said:
The stage has the exact advantages I've been stating, like I said in the other thread, Wario vs DDD turns from a 4:6 in DDD favors to a 7:3 or worse in Wario's favor because of the stage, Peach suffers the same way.

4:6 in DDD's favor is on FD. It's considered 6:4 Wario's favor on most stages. And DDD is absolutely horrible on Norfair anyways-kinda like ICs, he should ban the stage almost every time.

Other characters? Pit can plank and camp here very effectively, he wouldn't be as bad as MK but it would be bad. Speed already broke it with Sonic.

Vids?

It's purposefully abusive since people can and will carry pocket characters just to break this stage if you don't ban it, so people have to ban it. I don't care if this stage is fine for some characters, because all those character will lose to the ones who do break it.

So? This issue appears in our current ruleset. You're DDD, I'm Wario. You ban Brinstar. I counterpick you to FD and take out my pocket ICs. I.e. a setup that DDD cannot reasonably win. All because a pocket secondary. Hell, MK can do similar things in stagelists like APEX's without a secondary.

EDIT: Yeah, and Ghostbone is my second-favorite new poster (after Veel)

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 22, 2010

Yink said:
You know I used to kind of hate Norfair but I really don't think it's broken. And this is something I really wanted to point out because well... :

I'm sorry Ryu, but that's not proof. I think if it were to convince me (not saying I'm special or anything) I'd want to see matches of it being broken and abused by these guys. Do you have any for me to see?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfPXhnT1lrc

Only match that got recorded of a time-out. VGbootcamp didn't get the ones from Columbus that I saw either unfortunately.

I'm well aware this is Luigi who got timed out, but it's prove of what can happen at the very least.

Raziek said:
Right, because all of a sudden every matchup is unwinnable against Wario? Prove it. Furthermore, most US tourneys have ledge-grab limits, so planking is hardly an unbeatable issue here.

Here is a list of character's airspeed from best to worst.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952

Character - Horizontal Air Speed

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10

Combine this with the layout.

Also I'm against a LGL.

Raziek said:
You mean like how FD skews match-ups? Or Perhaps RC? It's a hard counter, that's the whole point. Wario picks a stage where he's difficult to grab, and can dance around Dedede using his airspeed. There's nothing degenerate about that.

FD and Cruise don't come close to Norfair.

The problem lies with the fact he can do this to far more than just DDD.

Raziek said:
Vids please. If the person he did it against was clearly doing it wrong, anecdotal evidence means little.

You can't see how Pit can shoot arrows around the stage or plank?

Also 20-30+ people saw Speed on Norfair, unless your saying there all lying about what happened in bracket?

Raziek said:
Yes, banning a stage is less bad than banning a character. You continue to ignore the fundamental point of the more bans though. If you have a reasonable amount of bans, the match-ups where the stage becomes too polar/degenerate NO LONGER OCCUR if the opponent has a brain. Depth for 300 matchups is saved at the cost of adding one ban?

If you carry enough characters to have access to that many stages with polar match-ups, you deserve your advantage. I've always thought about just how fun it would be to see an MK with pocket ICs. You ban RC and Brinstar? FD LOL.

What GOOD reason can you give me to sacrifice the depth an entire stage brings, when the fraction of match-ups it affects is LESS THAN 5%, and can be remedied by a slight modification to the system?

Time and time again, I've seen typically conservative players say, "I'd agree to this stage if we had two bans." AND I've tried all the "extra bans" shindig in practice. It WORKS. What do you have? Broken theory of "This is broken but I can't prove it."

Weren't you the one who said you wouldn't make Skyworld legal if MK was around, only under that condition?

If something is broken and players know it, why wouldn't they ban it?

ghostbone said:
I'm sorry but there you're assuming there is a "default" matchup between them. This is not the case. Every stage affects a matchup, and i could claim the opposite "Smashville gives Dedede a 4:6 advantage on wario when it should be 7:3 wario's advantage like on Norfair! BAN IT"
Just because 1 is more polar doesn't mean anything. It simply rewards his character traits without it being degenerate. (it's simply hard to hit him not impossible)

I would expect people to take that into consideration, stage do affect match-ups, when they give free wins or something very close to it is when people have problems. And it's not just DDD vs Wario.

@BBC: Ask people who know the match-up. It is stage dependant but a lot of people think it's in DDD's favor on most stages. Wario does have stage that do flip this around as I have noted.

Yink · Nov 22, 2010

Red Ryu said:
You can't see how Pit can shoot arrows around the stage or plank?

Also 20-30+ people saw Speed on Norfair, unless your saying there all lying about what happened in bracket?

1. Where's the proof of that being broken? I need to see a vid...you can say something looks great on paper but in the match where is the proof?

2. He's not saying they're lying, he's saying he wants to see a video of it to help reassure what you're saying is correct.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 22, 2010

Yink said:
1. Where's the proof of that being broken? I need to see a vid...you can say something looks great on paper but in the match where is the proof?

2. He's not saying they're lying, he's saying he wants to see a video of it to help reassure what you're saying is correct.

1. Very well, I'll concede I have no actual physical prove of it, via video.

2. I wish I could, but all I have it the words of people who watched it. MLG can't do livestream and VGbootcamp didn't record it. If he wants a vid of what happened, I can't provide it.

Ghostbone · Nov 22, 2010

That wario vs luigi vid is just wario playing EXTREMELY campy. What you're not getting is degenerate = 1-hit > runaway for the rest of the match (at least in this case). "campy" is not degenerate, and doesn't make the stage ban-worthy. Wario was actually close to losing his second stock in that vid, or should we ban PS1 as well because MK can play campy there and time people out? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw
(yes I know that video is over a year old but still)

Hell MK can time anyone out on any stage.....ban every stage in brawl?

Norfair is not degenerate...and i doubt it's actually broken, just very polar in certain matchups.

fkacyan · Nov 22, 2010

ghostbone said:
That wario vs luigi vid is just wario playing EXTREMELY campy. What you're not getting is degenerate = 1-hit > runaway for the rest of the match (at least in this case). "campy" is not degenerate, and doesn't make the stage ban-worthy. Wario was actually close to losing his second stock in that vid, or should we ban PS1 as well because MK can play campy there and time people out? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw
(yes I know that video is over a year old but still)

Hell MK can time anyone out on any stage.....ban every stage in brawl?

Norfair is not degenerate...and i doubt it's actually broken, just very polar in certain matchups.

Here's the thing about polar stages, though - In an environment where you can double CP (Character and stage), if you give a character too many extremely polarizing stages play will degenerate to playing that character provided that the character does well on other stages.

This is, of course, unless you have the ability to ban all of his extremely polar stages.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 22, 2010

@Thio: Yep, that's kinda the whole point of the thread.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 22, 2010

ghostbone said:
That wario vs luigi vid is just wario playing EXTREMELY campy. What you're not getting is degenerate = 1-hit > runaway for the rest of the match (at least in this case). "campy" is not degenerate, and doesn't make the stage ban-worthy. Wario was actually close to losing his second stock in that vid, or should we ban PS1 as well because MK can play campy there and time people out? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw
(yes I know that video is over a year old but still)

Hell MK can time anyone out on any stage.....ban every stage in brawl?

Norfair is not degenerate...and i doubt it's actually broken, just very polar in certain matchups.

You don't need to make it one hit and run away forever for it to be broken. That is in extreme cases like Temple and such where it is a circle is all they need to finish the job. All you need is a good layout and the third best airspeed in the game.

Xebenkeck · Nov 22, 2010

SuSa said:
Isn't over-centralizing "This cuts out 80% of every option. Pick Marth/Wario/Meta Knight to win." kind of... degenerate? It's not "do this or win" - but over-centralizing is close enough.

When it turns into "pick one of the... five or so characters that can handle it... somewhat.. or lose." isn't that warrant enough to ban it?

DDD's infinites are not banned because they aren't over-centralizing. You can pick 32~ (well I guess now it's like 27~) different members of the cast.... 27 is nowhere near overcentralizing.... but when it becomes 4-5?

Food for thought.

those two examples are not in the same context, what the real comparison actually should be is, that this only affects 108 match-ups out of a possible 1332 match-ups in the game. Because only these three characters are broken on that stage. So judging by what you said about DDD, that number looks almost the same in terms of ratio. So therefore NOT overcentralizing and not ban worthy, which is what BPC is trying to point out.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 22, 2010

Yeah, claiming "you can only use 4-5 chars" on the stage is faulty in that way... And in the way that the entire concept of only being able to use 4-5 chars is presupposed by the fact that one of the broken chars is picking the stage. Which, in this system, will not happen. You could effectively say the same about ICs and FD.

AMKalmar · Nov 22, 2010

What do earthbounds have on JJ?

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 22, 2010

PK thunder. Actually, it's just lucas. Or I'm just a ****ty scrub. Could be that too. :V But seriously, a lucas who basically does nothing but run away and spam PK thunder on that stage... ugh.

Yink · Nov 22, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
PK thunder. Actually, it's just lucas. Or I'm just a ****ty scrub. Could be that too. :V But seriously, a lucas who basically does nothing but run away and spam PK thunder on that stage... ugh.

Ness is just as bad really. You're right.

They can live in the water for a very long time too, due to their awkward jumping. Between PK Fire and PK Thunder it just sucks fighting both the EB kids on this stage...not to mention any energy projectiles really don't work.

Lightosia · Nov 22, 2010

Wow, I didn't know about JJ for Ness/Lucas...

That's a nice idea on the topic, but we have to analyse first ALL the stages. If some character gets too many stage bans we should not consider it.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Nov 22, 2010

@Yink: thanks for confirming that I'm not that dumb. :laugh:

Lightosia said:
Wow, I didn't know about JJ for Ness/Lucas...

That's a nice idea on the topic, but we have to analyse first ALL the stages. If some character gets too many stage bans we should not consider it.

You do have to analyze really every character on every stage. The good news is, however, that we've already done that for the most part. The only stages where we don't really know are:
-Norfair (to an extent, it's slowly becoming clearer)
-PTAD (MK? Maybe?)
-LM (seriously, who the **** is busted here?)
-Distant Planet
-Currently banned stages

That's not a long list... I don't think I'm missing any, either. Furthermore, there are some where there's really room for debate-for example, is MK really overly polarizing on RC? I kinda doubt it somehow.

And one more thing makes it even easier-we don't have to worry about, say, if Sonic breaks Pictochat, until it turns out that Sonic breaks more stages than the current leader of the pack (usually gonna be MK, G&W, or Wario)-like, Ness may be busted as **** on Brinstar, but nobody really cares...

Lightosia · Nov 22, 2010

-Luigi's mansion:
Mk (tornado of GG)
Ness (PK Pillar better than in Brinstar)
Falco? (SHDL)
DK? (Down B?)

-PTAD:
Peach? (Float, just like Mute City in Melee)
MK (air planking)
Wario?
Kirby?

-Distant Planet:
DDD? (CG)
Falco? (CG)

Just guessing.

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