Question: When is it okay to purposely try and profit from running a tournament?

Laijin · Nov 22, 2010

I asked this question to at least twenty different smashers today. I got varied answers, but there was a pattern.

Most super old school smashers: "Never. It is never okay to try and profit from running a tournament."

Most kinda old school but not really smashers: "Sometimes. If their putting a lot of effort for the tournament its kinda like treating it as a job"

New smashers: "I don't see problem at all with it"

From what I have gathered, there seems to be a growing trend. My personal opinion is that its never okay to profit from a tournament as when you host a tournament, you should try and make it as convienent as possible for the community as you should be hosting it for the community and not for your personal benefit. But I CAN sorta agree with treating it as a job as well as I can see where your coming from if your busting your butt trying to make it the best possible experience ever.

However what I cannot absolutely agree with is profitting from a tournament that you put what seemed to be a completely less than half-***** effort, and not only just profiting a bit, but a ridiculous amount. To be fair though, the smash community does not really have stellar record at hosting good tournaments. What passes as a good tournament these days is just sad. Plank seems to be the only TO capable of running a functional tournament. He is the only TO I have seen a loooooong time actually DQ people for being late. The common attitude in tournaments is "Lets just wait a few hours for this guy to show up!". Guys. Thats not good. lol.

The smash community has had several large tournaments in the past where money just seemed "disappear/stolen" or "magically somehow cannot be counted for no matter how you try to count where that venue fee went". We're gonna focus the latter of the two.

There were quite a handful of tournaments where the TOs are accused of making a ridiculous profit, and that was usually frowned upon whenever accusations like that occurred. But lets not focus on the past here. Lets look at the most recent large scale tournament to take place: RoM3.
If you don't feel like reading a huge wall of text, you can skip this part. This is a good example since it was extremely recent and a lot of you can relate.

Before you read this. Keep in mind im not out to make any personal attacks or anyone and im not accusing anyone of anything. This is just what it looks like to anyone that put any thought as to where the venue fee went towards the tournament. Everything in purple is my opinion on the subject.

Also. This is my opinion, but keep in mind I'm not trying to personally single out RoM3. In fact, most tournaments these days in the smash community are pretty poorly run because the standards of the community are pretty low when it comes to tournaments. I'm just purely using RoM3 as an example to try and make some people that are unaware or have not noticed at how ridiculous our tournament scene is becoming. Its a trend that is rapidly growing and in my opinion, needs to change soon. Otherwise Melee's killer won't be the fact that its getting old, it will be the fact that every tournament is terribly organized and newer players from other communities will just well..not want to join our community.

It looks to me(and several others who agreed with me) that there is over $3,000 that is unaccounted for at the tournament. Lets see:

172 entrants. $20 venue fee per each person. = $3440.
$10 for singles and doubles(completely excluding this from the venue fee).

Well. First off. Why is the venue fee 200% higher than the tournament entry itself? That alone I had serious problems with from the beginning. But I let that go cause I figured "Hey. Its gonna be an awesome tournament. Everyone's going." So whatever right?

Thats a lot of money right? Well. It is New York. The venue probably costs a lot of money to rent that space out right? So giving them the benefit of a doubt. Lets say the venue costs $1000. Well, turns out this is the same venue they use for the tournament series No Johns(and thats a monthly? Correct me if I'm wrong) and they charge $10-$15 for venue. So the venue has to be affordable to be able to host frequent tournaments there plus anyone that was actually there can tell you it wasn't a large space at all. The store that the tournament was in couldn't have possibly taken a much larger share than they usually do(and if they did, then wow. Why would you accept that venue). So yea. Anyways. $1000.

Okay. So giving them the complete benefit of the doubt: $1k on venue. Cool.
So that leaves us with $2440.

Now next thing your gonna say "Well! What about the equipment they used?". For anyone that was there they would say "What equipment?". Unlike Plank where for pound 4 he actually purchased a ton of tvs, gamecubes, microphones, etc etc. It didn't seem like they spent on anything. Maybe some surge protectors, pens for all the pools, and name tags? But once again. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and say they spent $200 on equipment.

So that leaves us with still over $2k.
Now the next you'd probably say is "Well! It was an awesome tournament though right? I mean. The TOs put in a ton of effort into the tournament to make it a great experience! So maybe they deserve the money for all their hardwork!".
I mean I'm fully aware the smash community's standards for tournaments are extremely low given the average tournament usually ran pretty terribly, but even though that is the standard, this is still even worst by comparison. Pools ran on saturday and took forever to finish. There were a ton of complaints about the pool seeding.They even considered doing second round pools for singles on Day 2 since they went around asking everyone if they wanted to do that? Like wtf. You mean your trying to squeeze a full teams and singles bracket and on top of that another round of pools when you can't even finish the first round of singles pools at a decent time?
So by the time day 2 rolls around, almost nobody knew what time to show up and so teams bracket started at like 2pm. Alright. Cool. I'm thinking to myself "The only way this will work out is if they run singles at the same time". Nope. Not what they did at all. Singles started 6pm. Keep in mind, this is day 2 where people actually were planning on leaving from New York that night to drive home, go to work the next day, etc etc. The tournament didn't end till around 12-1am.

So personally, I'd have to say this was one of the worst organized tournaments I have ever attended the seven years I have been in this community. And this is even comparing to other really bad tournaments which are in this case "average" tournaments.

So with that, I don't think they deserve to profit anything from this tournament. Frequent things that happen in tournaments frequently(not singling RoM3 out on this and I'm not saying any of these things particularly happened) include: fixing brackets/pools, not DQing people for being ridiculously late, not starting on time, not actually running your tournament so it ends at a decent time, etc etc. Things like this are pretty easy to correct, but can also very easily ruin a tournament experience.

Alukard and the other TOs. I have nothing personal against you. This is just about how I feel about the event. Now if someone(or one of the RoM3 TOs) could please kindly explain where the $3k+ in venue fees went, that would be awesome. Thanks.

The only thing that ever saves national tournaments and most people seem to overlook at how organized it really is is simple. The hype. Watching exciting matches live is amazing and always is. RoM3 certainly delivered on that. At the very least, even if the tournament is poorly ran its still pretty exciting to be there and that alone can lead to a good time. But also doesn't excuse a tournament from being badly organized amongst all the other problems I listed out.

So what is your opinion on all of this? Do you think a TO should profit from a tournament? and why?

If you read my "review" about RoM3, what is your opinion on that?

Should be obvious and I shouldn't have to say this but before you post. I ask that you don't flame me or anyone else in this thread. If you don't have anything intelligent to post, don't bother posting. Thanks.

Wenbobular · Nov 22, 2010

I fell into a burnin' ring of fire ... I went down down down and the flames went higher

I did hear some disgruntledness at how some things were run at ROM3

Life · Nov 22, 2010

Speaking as a noob:

Profit in general is fine, basic economics tells us so. If the venue price is really that bad, people won't show up.

If you own the venue, awesome.

If you're running out of someone else's venue, it might be wiser to split any profit you get with the venue owner, as the profit they get will ensure that they keep letting you run tournaments.

Ultimately, if a fee is truly excessive, smashers won't pay it.

smakis · Nov 22, 2010

I don't mind TO's making money at all, if the tournament they deliver is any good =)

if they work their butts off to make things go smoothly, they certainly deserve money for their time spent. However this only applies to a job well done, if a tournament is run like the example above the money should go towards the pot or be refunded.

Juggleguy · Nov 22, 2010

Monetary profit should not be the main motivation for a TO to host an event. Great tourneys happen when the people involved are excited about growing the Melee community, not when the people involved are trying to milk as much money as possible out of attendees. However, it's perfectly justified for the TO to profit from his own tourneys if he's done a great job putting together and running the event. As long as the TO is genuinely excited about hosting a Melee tourney and delivers on those promises with a job well done, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to profit from it.

Laijin · Nov 22, 2010

Just like to point this out. Back in the day(like 01-05), Venue fees were pretty rare and TOs profiting from tournaments purposely was also pretty rare. Just like to point out that there is indeed a growing trend.

Burnt_Toast · Nov 22, 2010

InferiorityComplex said:
Ultimately, if a fee is truly excessive, smashers won't pay it.

This is incorrect. At OC3 in 2007 the prices were $75 in advance, and if you didn't pre-reg, there was a $25 "you didn't pre-reg" fee, which is just ridiculous.

I COULD'VE understood an extra 5 to 10 for the surprise and the additional work involved in adding someone last minute if it wasn't for the fact that the initial $75 a person was so inflated to begin with.

Then let's not forget about Manacloud not allowing Bombsoldier to play friendlies. Literally disallowed him from doing so, and made everyone pay $5.00 to play best out of 5 against him.

But wait, there's more! Let's also not forget about the DVD of the matches they easily could have uploaded to youtube for free that they sold for $70.

EDIT: By complete chance I just happened upon the actual DVD thread through the search function. Turns out it was only $35. Unless you were in attendance and had already paid all their other exorbitant fees. Then it was only $30. My bad.

A year earlier at OC2, the price for all tourneys was $60 a person and the venue was a sweet air-conditioned room at a golf club. At OC3 it was $75 and the venue was a warehouse with fans, and amazingly, less space.

That said I had a great time at OC3 and witnessed some of my favorite Melee memories, like M2K beating just about an entire crew by himself. And the finals! Holy **** were the finals exciting.

And with THAT being said, the fact that I had a great time does not mitigate the disdain I've felt since OC3 toward Ken and his brother for clearly trying to squeeze as much money out of this community as they could.

But anyway, the ultimate point is, ****ing ridiculous or not, people paid it. Hella people paid it.

Laijin · Nov 22, 2010

Glad you mentioned OC3. Perfect example of not to run a tournament.

Plank accused Manacloud for stealing literally over $20k.
The prices for OC3 were outrageous. I was one of the main people complaining about it and Ken literally posted and told me: "Come to this tournament with the mindset that this is a vacation to california".
I was like "Dude I wanted to go on a vacation to california I'd go to disney land and spend less money that I would if I went to your tournament.". Besides. I personally wouldn't want to spend an entire weekend playing melee if I was taking a vacation to california and spending that much money. I'd wanna go site seeing and such(as many people explained in the OC3 thread). People tried to justify the cost of the venue since its in CA, but it didn't make any sense or add up to how much they were making in the end(pretty similar to RoM3 in this case but not as extreme).

Ryzol_ · Nov 22, 2010

When it is really awesome tournament, and the TO is supplying most of the set ups. Also, if it doesn't run on-time the TO shouldn't be profiting.

I don't have a problem with for profit, but the TO should make it clear up front and give refunds if it doesn't run on time.

Plairnkk · Nov 22, 2010

Laijin said:
I asked this question to at least twenty different smashers today. I got varied answers, but there was a pattern.

Most super old school smashers: "Never. It is never okay to try and profit from running a tournament."

Most kinda old school but not really smashers: "Sometimes. If their putting a lot of effort for the tournament its kinda like treating it as a job"

New smashers: "I don't see problem at all with it"

From what I have gathered, there seems to be a growing trend. My personal opinion is that its never okay to profit from a tournament as when you host a tournament, you should try and make it as convienent as possible for the community as you should be hosting it for the community and not for your personal benefit. But I CAN sorta agree with treating it as a job as well as I can see where your coming from if your busting your butt trying to make it the best possible experience ever.

However what I cannot absolutely agree with is profitting from a tournament that you put what seemed to be a completely less than half-***** effort, and not only just profiting a bit, but a ridiculous amount. To be fair though, the smash community does not really have stellar record at hosting good tournaments. What passes as a good tournament these days is just sad. Plank seems to be the only TO capable of running a functional tournament. He is the only TO I have seen a loooooong time actually DQ people for being late. The common attitude in tournaments is "Lets just wait a few hours for this guy to show up!". Guys. Thats not good. lol.

The smash community has had several large tournaments in the past where money just seemed "disappear/stolen" or "magically somehow cannot be counted for no matter how you try to count where that venue fee went". We're gonna focus the latter of the two.

There were quite a handful of tournaments where the TOs are accused of making a ridiculous profit, and that was usually frowned upon whenever accusations like that occurred. But lets not focus on the past here. Lets look at the most recent large scale tournament to take place: RoM3.
If you don't feel like reading a huge wall of text, you can skip this part. This is a good example since it was extremely recent and a lot of you can relate.

Before you read this. Keep in mind im not out to make any personal attacks or anyone and im not accusing anyone of anything. This is just what it looks like to anyone that put any thought as to where the venue fee went towards the tournament. Everything in purple is my opinion on the subject.

Also. This is my opinion, but keep in mind I'm not trying to personally single out RoM3. In fact, most tournaments these days in the smash community are pretty poorly run because the standards of the community are pretty low when it comes to tournaments. I'm just purely using RoM3 as an example to try and make some people that are unaware or have not noticed at how ridiculous our tournament scene is becoming. Its a trend that is rapidly growing and in my opinion, needs to change soon. Otherwise Melee's killer won't be the fact that its getting old, it will be the fact that every tournament is terribly organized and newer players from other communities will just well..not want to join our community.

It looks to me(and several others who agreed with me) that there is over $3,000 that is unaccounted for at the tournament. Lets see:

172 entrants. $20 venue fee per each person. = $3440.
$10 for singles and doubles(completely excluding this from the venue fee).

Well. First off. Why is the venue fee 200% higher than the tournament entry itself? That alone I had serious problems with from the beginning. But I let that go cause I figured "Hey. Its gonna be an awesome tournament. Everyone's going." So whatever right?

Thats a lot of money right? Well. It is New York. The venue probably costs a lot of money to rent that space out right? So giving them the benefit of a doubt. Lets say the venue costs $1000. Well, turns out this is the same venue they use for the tournament series No Johns(and thats a monthly? Correct me if I'm wrong) and they charge $10-$15 for venue. So the venue has to be affordable to be able to host frequent tournaments there plus anyone that was actually there can tell you it wasn't a large space at all. The store that the tournament was in couldn't have possibly taken a much larger share than they usually do(and if they did, then wow. Why would you accept that venue). So yea. Anyways. $1000.

Okay. So giving them the complete benefit of the doubt: $1k on venue. Cool.
So that leaves us with $2440.

Now next thing your gonna say "Well! What about the equipment they used?". For anyone that was there they would say "What equipment?". Unlike Plank where for pound 4 he actually purchased a ton of tvs, gamecubes, microphones, etc etc. It didn't seem like they spent on anything. Maybe some surge protectors, pens for all the pools, and name tags? But once again. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and say they spent $200 on equipment.

So that leaves us with still over $2k.
Now the next you'd probably say is "Well! It was an awesome tournament though right? I mean. The TOs put in a ton of effort into the tournament to make it a great experience! So maybe they deserve the money for all their hardwork!".
I mean I'm fully aware the smash community's standards for tournaments are extremely low given the average tournament usually ran pretty terribly, but even though that is the standard, this is still even worst by comparison. Pools ran on saturday and took forever to finish. There were a ton of complaints about the pool seeding.They even considered doing second round pools for singles on Day 2 since they went around asking everyone if they wanted to do that? Like wtf. You mean your trying to squeeze a full teams and singles bracket and on top of that another round of pools when you can't even finish the first round of singles pools at a decent time?
So by the time day 2 rolls around, almost nobody knew what time to show up and so teams bracket started at like 2pm. Alright. Cool. I'm thinking to myself "The only way this will work out is if they run singles at the same time". Nope. Not what they did at all. Singles started 6pm. Keep in mind, this is day 2 where people actually were planning on leaving from New York that night to drive home, go to work the next day, etc etc. The tournament didn't end till around 12-1am.

So personally, I'd have to say this was one of the worst organized tournaments I have ever attended the seven years I have been in this community. And this is even comparing to other really bad tournaments which are in this case "average" tournaments.

So with that, I don't think they deserve to profit anything from this tournament. Frequent things that happen in tournaments frequently(not singling RoM3 out on this and I'm not saying any of these things particularly happened) include: fixing brackets/pools, not DQing people for being ridiculously late, not starting on time, not actually running your tournament so it ends at a decent time, etc etc. Things like this are pretty easy to correct, but can also very easily ruin a tournament experience.

Alukard and the other TOs. I have nothing personal against you. This is just about how I feel about the event. Now if someone(or one of the RoM3 TOs) could please kindly explain where the $3k+ in venue fees went, that would be awesome. Thanks.

The only thing that ever saves national tournaments and most people seem to overlook at how organized it really is is simple. The hype. Watching exciting matches live is amazing and always is. RoM3 certainly delivered on that. At the very least, even if the tournament is poorly ran its still pretty exciting to be there and that alone can lead to a good time. But also doesn't excuse a tournament from being badly organized amongst all the other problems I listed out.

So what is your opinion on all of this? Do you think a TO should profit from a tournament? and why?

If you read my "review" about RoM3, what is your opinion on that?

Should be obvious and I shouldn't have to say this but before you post. I ask that you don't flame me or anyone else in this thread. If you don't have anything intelligent to post, don't bother posting. Thanks.

Good write Clyde, I totally understand where you're coming from. I didn't go to ROM so it's tough for me to comment on that, but I did go to a tournament at ToyWiz before ROM where they absolutely ROBBED my prize winnings (they charged a venue fee and then also took 50% of the pot out which they didn't mention in the thread title). This was not an Alukard tournament or anything but it left me salty towards ToyWiz which is why I did not go to ROM. The venue itself you are right, although it is NY it is not in the city so it shouldn't be too expensive.

The standard of tournaments for melee AND brawl seriously disgusts me. When I began playing a tournament would START at 11 or 12 and you would play until 6 or 7 then either continue to play friendlies or GO OUT AND DO SOMETHING. Even local tournaments never finish on time anymore (at least in MD/VA, i assume the trend grows across the country?) If this is the case who even wants to travel to your tournaments? Who wants to drive 3 hours to a tournament that won't end until midnight so you can then drive 3 hours back or find a place to stay?

Too many tournaments get by on just riding the hype alone these days. All TO's have to do is mention a few top names and everybody swarms. There is less and less focus on the tournament itself and people are too blinded by the hype to see anything else. A great example is Genesis, where so many people were extremely unhappy with the venue/amount of tvs/etc and I saw a LOT of complaints after the tournament, but in the end all people remember is armada vs mango (it was armada's first trip to the US) and now BOOM, GENESIS 2 WILL BE HUGE and HYPEHYPEHYPE....no offense to genesis, just using as an example.

As far as the money aspect goes I agree with Juggleguy. But how much planning did ROM really take? How much effort was really put in? I guess that's the true question one would need to know before making an accusation, a lot can go on behind the scenes with money that the average person doesn't see (right wenbo? lol)

The bottom line is as long as smashers will just go to tournaments on hype alone rather than looking at actual threads and deciding what a -good- tournament to go to is, they will continue to be taken advantage of (oc3 style).

Hazygoose · Nov 22, 2010

i remember losing money in 2005/2006 hosting tournaments. rent out a space, turnout is lower than expected, forced to pay the difference. In the recent tragedies of both eugenio and nesnoob, both TOs and players ran charity tournaments. behavior like this shows that along with competition and munies in this community there is also a general sense of friendship and love of the game itself. the longer someone has been a part of the community, the more time they have had to soak in their adoration of the game and the more friendships they have gained, as well as the degree of those friendships. this, i assume, is why old school players are less inclined to find justification in tournament profits - it shifts focus of the community off of the aforementioned characteristics and treats it more businesslike and semiprofessional. that's not to say that newer players define, in their mind, the community differently, but they are more likely to be openminded about tournament procedures because the way smash tournaments function, as well as how the majority of the community views their purpose, is less imbeded and therefore less concrete. old school smashers have set arbitrary sentimental values onto even the way a tournament is run, and so when the general consensus of a tournament value is challenged, the general consensus of the community value to them is challenged inherently - obviously not something to greet with open arms.

a TO, IMO, has a responsibility. People aren't showing up for him, so he shouldn't run the tournament for himself, either. Profiting by happenstance shouldn't be looked down on - if you charge a venue fee to pay for a room and come out with 20 extra bucks, big deal. but if you mathematically are aware you're getting huge profits or otherwise are using a tournament for profiteering, you're betraying the community's and respect for your tournament and their support for the scene, surreptitiously masking personal gain for responsibility, and taking advantage of a traditional system trusted by everyone just to make some chump change.
i won't go so far as to say anything is unethical or immoral, but all three of these, in my opinion, are consciously unjustified acts. :\

just my $0.02. there are many specific examples of good and bad TOing that i can think of, but i am sure they will come up from other peeps so i will leave my post with a single point to make instead of two XD

good thread, laijin. i am definitely interested in hearing more, especially from more legit TOs in this thread...especially newer ones.

Theftz22 · Nov 22, 2010

If you're running a tourney, it's your decision whether or not you want to take a profit from it.

As long as you inform players you will be making a profit, I see no issue here.

After that it becomes the smashers decision whether or not to support your tournament and the profit you will make from it.

skins · Nov 22, 2010

TOs need to cover their costs. Tournament attendees do not want to get gouged. There is a very simple solution to this tug of war between groups.

The TOs should provide an up front set of costs that must be covered in order to break even. They should set up some type of online account (perhaps paypal) and set a deadline for attendees to deposit their venue and entry fees. Once all costs are met and the attendance deadline passes the TOs can simply reimburse the attendees for whatever is left over. If costs can not get covered by the attendance deadline then the tournament can be canceled and all attendee deposits can be refunded.

If there are worries over costs associated with damage to a venue then insurance can be included in the venue fee and be refunded once the tournament has concluded.

I do not attend tournaments but I gather that there is very bad problem with transparency among the tournament organizers. If a TO refuses to explain costs, BEFOREHAND, then smashers can easily speak with their wallets and boycott a tournament. If a TO has offended in the past simply make a thread about it and force a response and accountability on their part.

just a thought

MattDotZeb · Nov 22, 2010

If you have extra money from venue fee then I guess go ahead and pay yourself your own entry or something and buy yourself a burger or something from Wendy's.
Then just put the rest of it into the bracket.

I like this whole degree of professionalism that rarely (but more frequently as of late) pokes its head up in this community.

Venom NY · Nov 22, 2010

I was one of the T.O's at ROM 3. About the money and everything that was not my department and I know **** well Alukard would not steal hes WAAAAAAAAAY to nice of a guy. Like he and I honestly tried to bring the best to ROM 3 but sadly we don't have those resources. I am truly very sorry for how people feel but I would also like to address this whole everything being run late matter to the players as well.

When singles pools were being played I walked around for literally 20-30 minutes checking on lists and trying to record matches because noone brought any cameras with the exception of waffles and sleepyk's setups. So anyways, I was walking around and I saw everyone playing, now it is honestly very frustrating for me to walk back and forth to check up on people like if they were babies. There were SERIOUSLY 4-6 SHEETS ON THE FLOOR WITH 0 SCORES ON THEM.....like I don't think ANYONE understands that rage I had in me that day...its like people come in and play and they don't give two ****s about their placings or w.e and just would not check their scores. M2K was actually one of these people who played a **** load of people and I saw his sheet blank and when I asked him "are you playing your pools matches?" he says "idk I was just playing"....I had to then walk and ask if anyone was in m2ks bracket that hadn't played and that took another 10 minutes. Ok so I hope you guys understand one of the biggest reasons why the tournament ran slower than expected.

Another topic was security. Before ROM 3 began a few people were talking about stuff getting stolen or something like that last time or at another tourny, im not entirely sure who said that but I know some people were concerned. NOW, my job was security. I also took it upon myself to help out alukard in walking around and checking on matches etc. So yeah, I was doing my absolute best to make sure noone was trying to walk in the venue for free and steal something (which someone tried to do) and help the tournament move on, since Alukard was the only one making sure everything was running smoothly, and im pretty sure any T.O would understand that running a tournament with more than 100+ people plus pools is REALLY FRUSTRATING especially when trying to speak over people and people randomly go out and get food when we tell everyone to shut off their games and come listen to your pools.

Now...this is my opinion about T.O's making a profit from these events. I absolutely think that T.O's deserve a profit. The biggest reason why they should get money is because of the work and time they put into this. We got to the venue really early on both days (second day apparently people were waiting at the door to play friendlies and we got there 10 minutes late but it was cool) and started setting things up. Also just running a tournament in general takes A LOT of energy especially when you don't have megaphones or whatever. Now people may say we shouldn't because this is a community thing but seriously who tries to run a tournament and not make a profit? Like if the T.O didn't make a profit they would ALWAYS go negative, due to food and gas and hotel (if they are staying in one).

Well.....theres some of my input sorry I can't really break this down right now...the college semester is almost done and I gotta step it up. But again, sorry to anyone who felt that this tournament was terrible but I saw countless people having a great time playing smash and just hanging out.

Rain(ame) · Nov 22, 2010

Now maybe I'm wrong in saying this, but I don't see why people should make SOME profit off a tournament. Especially a large one. I'm not saying robbing people blind. Not at all. However...try being behind the scenes of ANY event. Running something, providing something. Sticking to the rules, remembering budgets. Doing the footwork that really...nobody else is going to do.

I've had to run two out of my house. Not easy. That's not even on a major scale. Yes it was fun....was it truly appreciated? Who knows. Did I profit? Well I won teams, and got top 3 in singles....twice, so yes. Other than that...nope.

TO's deserve to be rewarded for their hard work. They've got a lot more to worry about than if they're going to make it to brackets or not. That kind of stress for free...if you truly feel they shouldn't get a decent reward then do it yourself. I just feel sometimes that TO's just aren't appreciated enough.

That's just my thought on it.

Pi · Nov 22, 2010

The main focus of tournaments should be getting the most people to them as they can.

Prizes affect such a small % of smashers
While door fee's, entrance fee's affect everyone

If you're okay with the idea of people only entering tournaments to profit, then you should be okay with people only running tournaments to profit.

Ben-Teezee · Nov 22, 2010

funny that the only tournament u praised in your post, the TO prob made the most money of any smash tourney in history.

Singling out RoM (which even though u tried to disclaimer and say u werent, u pretty much did) when it was run by ONE guy, his sister, his gf, and his best friend for not being run to ur standards is pretty cool. u should run an event and have 250 ppl walking around ignoring you and let me know how u do. Even if Alukard made a killing (which like dionis said didnt happen) id say good he deserves it for having such an amazing event.

Since when did doing labor not merit payment? I guess we should tell teachers to teach for free since its good for the country if kids arent ignorant... yea good logic. You're a moron and I seriously suggest you go run a weekly or something with 20 ppl you cant control and then try to magnify that x10.

serious question did u expect there to be no venue fee? what do you think it should have been? you would have been fine with 10 for one day (which i think is the fee for no johns) but 20 for 2 days is too much?

Rain(ame) · Nov 22, 2010

Simply put...TO's who run big tournaments should get something. Small ones...they should probably get about what Matt said. At least lunch or dinner.

Venom NY · Nov 22, 2010

Rain(ame) said:
Now maybe I'm wrong in saying this, but I don't see why people should make SOME profit off a tournament. Especially a large one. I'm not saying robbing people blind. Not at all. However...try being behind the scenes of ANY event. Running something, providing something. Sticking to the rules, remembering budgets. Doing the footwork that really...nobody else is going to do.

I've had to run two out of my house. Not easy. That's not even on a major scale. Yes it was fun....was it truly appreciated? Who knows. Did I profit? Well I won teams, and got top 3 in singles....twice, so yes. Other than that...nope.

TO's deserve to be rewarded for their hard work. They've got a lot more to worry about than if they're going to make it to brackets or not. That kind of stress for free...if you truly feel they shouldn't get a decent reward then do it yourself. I just feel sometimes that TO's just aren't appreciated enough.

That's just my thought on it.

****...Im so happy you said that because its true ITS A LOT OF STRESS AND WHO KNOWS IF PEOPLE EVEN APPRECIATE OUR EFFORT? thanks for saying this <3

superwavedash said:
The main focus of tournaments should be getting the most people to them as they can.

Prizes affect such a small % of smashers
While door fee's, entrance fee's affect everyone

If you're okay with the idea of people only entering tournaments to profit, then you should be okay with people only running tournaments to profit.

Word! its not like we hid the venue fee price, people came prepared and supported this.

Ben-Teezee said:
funny that the only tournament u praised in your post, the TO prob made the most money of any smash tourney in history.

Singling out RoM (which even though u tried to disclaimer and say u werent, u pretty much did) when it was run by ONE guy, his sister, his gf, and his best friend for not being run to ur standards is pretty cool. u should run an event and have 250 ppl walking around ignoring you and let me know how u do. Even if Alukard made a killing (which like dionis said didnt happen) id say good he deserves it for having such an amazing event.

Since when did doing labor not merit payment? I guess we should tell teachers to teach for free since its good for the country if kids arent ignorant... yea good logic. You're a moron and I seriously suggest you go run a weekly or something with 20 ppl you cant control and then try to magnify that x10.

serious question did u expect there to be no venue fee? what do you think it should have been? you would have been fine with 10 for one day (which i think is the fee for no johns) but 20 for 2 days is too much?

Well said Benny...and very spot on with the explanation of a 2 day event and venue fee.

GOD! · Nov 22, 2010

Ben Teezee WTF chill out. Stop being a douche

there's nothing wrong with some transparency.

Ben-Teezee · Nov 23, 2010

sry if what i say seems harsh alukard is a very, very good friend of mine and to see all his hard work get bashed, really made me mad. Insults aside though i still stand by my points.

Laijin · Nov 23, 2010

Ben-Teezee said:
funny that the only tournament u praised in your post, the TO prob made the most money of any smash tourney in history.

I praised Plank because P4 has been the most functional tournament I have been to this year comparing it to the two other nationals I went to(Apex and RoM3). How much effort someone puts into an event is extremely subjective, but in my opinion it seemed to me like he put in much more effort into P4 than the T.Os at Apex and at RoM3.

Singling out RoM (which even though u tried to disclaimer and say u werent, u pretty much did) when it was run by ONE guy, his sister, his gf, and his best friend for not being run to ur standards is pretty cool. u should run an event and have 250 ppl walking around ignoring you and let me know how u do. Even if Alukard made a killing (which like dionis said didnt happen) id say good he deserves it for having such an amazing event.

Like I said in my post, I could have easily mentioned any other tournament in the world that wasn't very well organized/had a ton of problems(Apex, OC3, etc etc) but I chose RoM because it was just last weekend. You totally missed my point apparently. For all the problems that occurred, its not like a successful smash tournament has never happened before. Why not find out what was done right at those tournaments and try to mimic them?

Since when did doing labor not merit payment? I guess we should tell teachers to teach for free since its good for the country if kids arent ignorant... yea good logic. You're a moron and I seriously suggest you go run a weekly or something with 20 ppl you cant control and then try to magnify that x10.

This is where extreme differences in opinion occur depending on who your asking. I personally think if your hosting an event for the community, you shouldn't try and profit off of them as well. A long time ago, T.Os hosted tournaments to get the community together for the pure benefit of the community. Rarely was there a venue fee. If you are trying to profit from them, you should let them know up front if you are taking money from the pot. If theres a venue fee, most people assume its going towards the cost of the venue/equipment which seems fair. I can agree on getting paid for labor, but there is a limit. I don't necessarily agree on how much Plank profited from Pound 4, but I can definitely see where your coming from(although once again I don't necessarily agree).

serious question did u expect there to be no venue fee? what do you think it should have been? you would have been fine with 10 for one day (which i think is the fee for no johns) but 20 for 2 days is too much?

I knew there was a venue fee and I came to have a good time and enjoy myself, which I did. But you guys honestly had to be aware of how many people were coming. I mean you did host two of these already and to even make the venue fee twice as much as the tournament? In my opinion, tournament should have been at least $15 with a $5 venue fee.

Overall, I'm not blaming Alucard or any of the other T.Os for doing a poor job. If you guys tried your best, then awesome. I'm glad you did. All I want is for you guys(and the rest of the community) is to be aware that you can do better at organizing events and such. I do fully understand organizing these events are tough. Its not an easy task controlling that many people and keeping things together. Players can be really rude and easily stall tournaments such as not playing pools matches and such, however my suggestion would be is to take hints from successful large scale tournaments that have happened in the past. Talk to the T.Os who ran those events and see how they handled the situations you had problems with. I'm quite sure you'll probably get good advice.

Sorry if I come out sounding kinda biased or if it seems like im attacking Alukard or what not. Totally not my intention or my goal.

Edit:
My opinion on venue fees.
The T.O should have at least a rough estimate of how many people are going to show up. They should then base the venue fees off of that. If it goes a little over, then fine. Thats alright. Treat yourself to dinner, put some in the pot and if you feel its right/necessary, pay the people that helped you out and yourself for the effort. But what I don't want to see is the clear transparency that has happened in the past over and again. The venue fee is ridiculous amount, the venue/equipment does not justify the fee(OC3 is a perfect example of this), and the only assumption the players have is the T.O pocketing a large amount of money. Thats the wrong way to go about things

crismas · Nov 23, 2010

Laijin said:
What passes as a good tournament these days is just sad. Plank seems to be the only TO capable of running a functional tournament. He is the only TO I have seen a loooooong time actually DQ people for being late.

Not really. Alex actually lost money (overall) from Apex trying to support everyone. Sad but true. And Alex is amazing at running tournaments

in the end though it's something we've discussed and learned from our mistakes financially.

As far as a TOing making money off his/her own tournaments. I feel like if you make it your job, that's your business. Whether or not you're taking door fees toward your pocket or taking from the pot is what makes the difference. MOST TO's barely make any money. Alex and I host Viridian (and used to) and Saffron for Brawl and Melee and all venue went straight to the owner of the venue and any money from the players went straight to the players toward the pot. Regardless of which, it was the venue we were at (the E-Spot) and ultimately it came down to either raising the venue and giving part of the venue to pay us for running it or keep it at $5 for everyone. And eventually we kept it at 5 (but then we changed venues anyway >_<). Either way, I'm referencing most "smaller" tournaments in this instance. Some TO's are hired by the venue and therefore paid by the venue (I believe Alu does and Alex used to back in the Web2Zone days).

In the case of larger tournaments where this issue seems to mostly referencing. I -do not- feel that it's wrong to profit to a degree. If you have a control of your venue pricing then you should be controlling a well managed budget regarding a) venue, b) assets for the tournament (which can be broken down into other pieces like equipment/badges/etc) c) helpers d) everything else that can marked as expenses (hotel/rentals etc). The general idea is, we're all not MLG and things cannot pay for themselves. If you're paying for a tournament of a large size (Pound4/Apex) you need to allow for the expenses and of course... yourself. You should compensate for all the hard work that goes into running a large event as anyone who's ever ran a tournament with more than 150+ would know it's not easy! The money that is "profited" should only be the left over amount thats done after all major expenses are done and over.

Whatever venue fee you're charging should always be justified in the end. You're creating an experience for the tournament goers, so any money they (the players) spend should basically come right back to them as you create the experience for them. So I'm obviously not talking about the pot money. If you're taking pot money in any way that's wrong (duh...). In the players shouldn't feel cheated in any way if the tournament atmosphere is worth it/venue is worth it/ran well.

Sooo yeah, imo and experiences most TOs I know do it for the love for the game and a love for hosting. But love unfortunately doesn't pay for everything.

PS: You're dead wrong about your comparison between Apex and Pound 4. You clearly do not know how much work Alex put into Apex. If you saw the venue and everything there you would know that. But we could always chat about that privately.

Laijin · Nov 23, 2010

I really appreciate T.Os for hosting. Stepping it up when no one else does. Takes a lot of effort to do that.
You are right though. I might not know how much work was put into Apex. All I can simply do is observe what was going on as a player. Thats the only fair observation I can make for any tournament. But yeaa. I prefer to keep stuff like that in private conversations to preserve the health of the thread since thats not really thread's discussion or point.

Ben-Teezee · Nov 23, 2010

u speak of "for the community" but i feel your points are vague and just nitpicking.

RoM was running behind. Pound4 finished brackets on the monday (i remember cuz jman was supposed to drive up with us when we decided to leave sunday but he had to stay) thats a WHOLE DAY behind.

Pound 4 was more expensive to enter than RoM and you had no say in the pricing ( I recall it being packages or some nonsense).

Pound4 had A LOT more staff, like i said RoM was pretty much run by just Alukard, with his sister and gf doing what they could at the door, and venom doing "security".

Disclaimer: I think plank for the most part did an amazing job at pound4 and deserves whatever he made from running it (as much as i dislike him as a person and always argue with him on the boards) im just comparing the 2 tourneys because theyre being referenced.

Im completely confused on your stance on DQ'ing. do you think if ppl drive 3 hours and are 30mins-2hours late they should be dq'd? how do you make the exceptions? does it make a difference if someone drives home and back for day 2 (in my case was almost 4 hours in the car 2 each day) or if they stay at the hotel? what about if theyre ride is taking too long isnt ready? you seem to think dq'ing ppl = good tournament running. Whatever dont be all "for the community" then praise something that can ruin a whole experience for someone who goes across the country (Jman getting dq'd from doubles @ pound4 it was like a 5 hour drive and really ruined the experience for most of us that were with him to the point we left a day early and he stayed for singles)

I understand at how ur saying player based tournaments USED to be for the community, im confused as to why u think they still should be. If you feel tournaments should be better planned, organized, etc.... again i highly recommend you run one yourself. u seem to think all the resources necessary are just like hey sup.

Again im only posting cuz im super mad at how u just randomly decided to bash RoM3 and dare post this in the RoM 3 results thread to spam "your opinion". This could have just as easily been titled Things TO's could do better without any of the RoM bashing. Its still your opinion (as uve said multiple times) so laying it all out like u did was low.

Laijin · Nov 23, 2010

Ben-Teezee said:
snip

I apologize if I offended anyone with that post. Not my intention. I just simply stated my observations as I saw them and happened to use RoM as a general example of for my point. I could have literally used any other tournament and broken it down in the same way.

My opinion of DQing:
If a player is 2 hours late to a tournament where they were told they were supposed to be there a certain time. It doesn't really matter how far they traveled, if their literally holding up the entire tournament I think its fair. I don't get how someone can think its alright to just show up whenever they feel like it and expect the entire tournament to wait for them for a couple of hours? Example: Say a football game is going on and the teams are supposed to get there a certain time. One team just decides to show up 2 hours late. No real good reason. How is that fair for everyone else that arrived on time?

I only said the tournament could have been better because I have seen better in the past. Its only fair to compare past experiences since they are pretty similar(in this case. The experiences being smash tournies). I don't know much about TOing, but I can only compare my experiences and thats what I did. I'm sure Alukard, Venom, and all the others that helped out worked very hard to run the tournament and I appreciate that.

I posted the thread in the rom 3 results page since it gets a lot of traffic and wanted to hear different people's views on the thread's subject. Not everyone lurks in the melee discussion forum lol.

Ben-Teezee · Nov 23, 2010

so 2 hours is ur limit? how about if they show up 1:30 mins late? the point is u cant have some leniency and not show it to everyone. If u say tournament starts at 12, id have to brake it to u RoM woulda been garbage cuz its just really hard to get up for some ppl at 7am and start driving. now lets say the players themselves hypothetically are being responsible and theres traffic/flight delay/*insert complication here* do u dq them then? i was just curious cuz u mentioned it. I personally think if there is a set time to start u can hold a match until the point that all the other matches of that level have been played for example wont dq someone in losers round 1 till all the rest of losers round1 is done and then u dq the person. I disagree however with Call match -> 2 mins later dq cuz person is eating, driving whatever. However RoM was not the first or the last tournament to not start on time "even though i think anyone who read 12 assumed 3pm and therefore actually kinda did start on time". but like u keep repeating is a problem wit tournaments in general.

#HBC | Mac · Nov 23, 2010

haven't read the thread yet, but this would be probably more suitable for tournament discussion.

Laijin · Nov 23, 2010

Ben-Teezee said:
so 2 hours is ur limit? how about if they show up 1:30 mins late? the point is u cant have some leniency and not show it to everyone. If u say tournament starts at 12, id have to brake it to u RoM woulda been garbage cuz its just really hard to get up for some ppl at 7am and start driving. now lets say the players themselves hypothetically are being responsible and theres traffic/flight delay/*insert complication here* do u dq them then? i was just curious cuz u mentioned it. I personally think if there is a set time to start u can hold a match until the point that all the other matches of that level have been played for example wont dq someone in losers round 1 till all the rest of losers round1 is done and then u dq the person. I disagree however with Call match -> 2 mins later dq cuz person is eating, driving whatever. However RoM was not the first or the last tournament to not start on time "even though i think anyone who read 12 assumed 3pm and therefore actually kinda did start on time". but like u keep repeating is a problem wit tournaments in general.

There should be some sort of DQ rule in place at every tournament. I personally I like the mages DQ rule:
After a match has been called, if a player is two minutes late he will receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, he will be given a loss for the first game of the set. After six minutes, he will be given a loss of the entire set.

There are mixed feelings about the rule as some players completely disagree with it and others totally love the rule. Obviously there are problems with the rule. In my opinion the time differences between calling matches should be a little bit longer. But players should also be responsible and not go out for lunch in a middle of tournament.

Whatever the case is, in my opinion there should be at least some sort of DQ rule in place at a tournament. The rule should be up to the TO, but I feel this will give players more incentive to arrive on time for the tournament so it can proceed "on time".

and yea. Tournament Discussion would be a better forum. Didn't think about that.

Juno McGrath · Nov 23, 2010

Subscribing.

Throwing a few opions in.

After seeing the way MLG has been running brawl i think that should be like the above and beyond level of running a tournament, Not many TO's could run a tournament like that finnacialy speaking. But the numbers add up in your write and That is sooo much money.

Basically, The only tournaments Ive attended that I felt were run anywhere close to MLG's caliber were Apex and Pound 4. Those tournaments were amazing.

ROM 3 was amazing in its own little way, the venue was smaller, there were few recording set ups Fewer function TV's and a feeling of overall nonchalantness imo,

But ROM was hype and everyone was there so it was whatever, the worst part was the chair, how crazy does this sound "Hey lucky and mango, sit on this Concrete floor and play out your winners finals set for this national level tournament"

Ridiculous? correct? Just saying.

Also, Clyde, good write. Solid facts, Whats it matter if you singled out ROM?

edit; i am also one that believes that you should never ever profit from running a tournament.

Hax · Nov 23, 2010

disclaimer: none of the following statements are meant to oppose TO's profiting from their tournaments

lets be real Benny; Brian likely made $2000+ off of ROM3. the portion of the venue used for No Johns tournaments is approximately 1/3rd of the portion used for ROM and there have been No Johns with attendances as low as 10-15. this means that the venue owner is pleased with making $100 off of leasing 1/3rd of the ROM venue for a day (this is assuming Brian does not profit from the No Johns tournaments, which i'm sure isn't the case). to estimate, the ROM venue would then cost $300-400 per day; $600-800 for 2 days (probably less because 1. the owner would likely cut Brian a deal for renting the venue for 2 days and 2. Sunday probably does not cost as much). I will once again give you best case scenario and say the venue cost $1000 (there is no way in hell it cost any more than $1000); that leaves $2440 unaccounted for. to my knowledge, no equipment was purchased for the tournament so that number stands. that is a killing to say the least

lol @ citing Plank as an example of not making much money off of hosting tournaments. he's probably made the most out of any TO besides Ken/Manacloud.

i've said this countless times: Alex Strife is the best TO. Alex cares about the community more than anybody and it shows. paying for international players' tickets and hiring a professional company to interview the players and upload matches are examples of this. he is the only TO that i know will use my money for a good cause

pockyD · Nov 23, 2010

nothing wrong with profiting off a tournament if you're upfront about it

you can't choose to attend a tournament with a posted-in-advance $20 venue fee, then later complain that there was a $20 venue fee

Were the prices at ROM3 ridiculous? Absolutely... but they were also the exact prices posted months in advance. Anyone could have easily voiced their dissent by not attending

If a T.O. needs a profit to motivate them to do a good job, so be it. If they love the game that much that they'll put up with all the bull**** that goes into organizing a tournament (and there's a lot of it) for free, then more power to them, but it's unfair to expect that out of everyone, especially this late in melee's lifetime.

Laijin · Nov 23, 2010

Hmm. I really thought about it. I just thought about all the past tournaments I have been to and compared them all together.
I pretty much agree with Apex being a good tournament. In retrospect, the TOs did do a good job and Alex Strife did get a lot of hype for brawl(The japanese players were awesome). I still had some problems with it, but overall it was a good experience.

This also leads to me to wonder since it was bought up so many times that Alukard only had a few people helping him. Why didn't he ask anyone else to assist in running the tournament? I'm quite sure a lot of people in the community would have been more than willing to assist in running the tourney. For a tournament that size, kinda makes sense to me.

Juno McGrath · Nov 23, 2010

Laijin said:
This also leads to me to wonder since it was bought up so many times that Alukard only had a few people helping him. Why didn't he ask anyone else to assist in running the tournament? I'm quite sure a lot of people in the community would have been more than willing to assist in running the tourney. For a tournament that size, kinda makes sense to me.

pretty sure Prog, sleepy waffles and a few others all helped

Laijin · Nov 23, 2010

Snap. said:
pretty sure Prog, sleepy waffles and a few others all helped

Thats cool. Ben-teezee just made it sound like only a handful of people were running it the entire time. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

pockyD · Nov 23, 2010

Just a quick note about how ROM was run, I found it a bit ridiculous that the TOs explicitly did not decide to assign TVs for pools/matches, especially after you put all the effort into numbering them. Assuming that everyone in a 200-person room with no central microphone would be able to find the specific person or people they're looking for in a small window of time is a rather unfortunate decision

Also, 4-man pools = bad news

Anyway, it was clear to me that Alukard put a significant amount of effort into it (even if I disagree with the decisions he ended up on), so if he felt he deserved a cut from the cost that he posted months ago and he took that cut without sacrificing the planned provisions for the tournament, then so be it

DtJ Jungle · Nov 23, 2010

So yeah this is good discussion and what not, but this belongs in tournament discussion.

moving it there.

Cactuar · Nov 23, 2010

The concept of a TO making more than the tourney winner has always bothered me >.>

Palpi · Nov 23, 2010

The only tournament I ever hosted...I lost money.

Question: When is it okay to purposely try and profit from running a tournament?

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