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Snake Matchup Discussion
- Thread starter -Mars-
- Start date
- slight disadvantage
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Snake in my opinion is Sheiks best top tier match up.
The only real problem is killing him. That being said, you can rack up damage on him well. If you get him off stage at low percents he is in a world of trouble.
Just be careful about f-tilt locking. If you mess the timing up he will pull out a grenade. Simply bthrow to not blow it up.
Snake also gets ***** by Sheiks juggling game. Just remember that bthrow will not blow his nades up.
And another thing, Snake has almost no options to chain. It is about like Ivy's rapid jabs. His only real answer is the Nikita and you can pull your chain in for that. He can also drop C4 above you but to get high enough to do that he needs to use both jumps. Simply pull in and punish.
Needles can punish pulling out a grenade BTW.
The only real problem is killing him. That being said, you can rack up damage on him well. If you get him off stage at low percents he is in a world of trouble.
Just be careful about f-tilt locking. If you mess the timing up he will pull out a grenade. Simply bthrow to not blow it up.
Snake also gets ***** by Sheiks juggling game. Just remember that bthrow will not blow his nades up.
And another thing, Snake has almost no options to chain. It is about like Ivy's rapid jabs. His only real answer is the Nikita and you can pull your chain in for that. He can also drop C4 above you but to get high enough to do that he needs to use both jumps. Simply pull in and punish.
Needles can punish pulling out a grenade BTW.
Fuujin
Smash Champion
40-60 imo.
You're just going to want to spend most of your time running away and needle camping and waiting for openings hit him in the air and try to combo him.
He has such a solid defensive game it's really hard for Sheik to get in on him, between his tilts and grenades.
I'm not seeing how chain is useful here,
the moment a grenade his hits it your going to be blown up, unless you manage to catch him in it while hes really close to you.
She also doesn't **** him off stage.
Sure she can hit him a little farther off each time she jumps off stage but Snake just shrugs off her weak attempts to gimp him.
I don't have much exp at this MU but I know you need to be really careful with the tricks he can do with grenades, they have huge range and can be used as a barrier when hes in his shield or has invincibility frames(ie climbing up from the ledge).
Killing him is also a *****, don't expect to kill a good Snake till near 200.
You're just going to want to spend most of your time running away and needle camping and waiting for openings hit him in the air and try to combo him.
He has such a solid defensive game it's really hard for Sheik to get in on him, between his tilts and grenades.
I'm not seeing how chain is useful here,
the moment a grenade his hits it your going to be blown up, unless you manage to catch him in it while hes really close to you.
She also doesn't **** him off stage.
Sure she can hit him a little farther off each time she jumps off stage but Snake just shrugs off her weak attempts to gimp him.
I don't have much exp at this MU but I know you need to be really careful with the tricks he can do with grenades, they have huge range and can be used as a barrier when hes in his shield or has invincibility frames(ie climbing up from the ledge).
Killing him is also a *****, don't expect to kill a good Snake till near 200.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
sheik is so good in this matchup
50/50
just run away
when he gets close he can do like 40 damage loool (especially when he has mine/c4 setup, he'll try to abuse those like crazy)
nades hardly do anything
protip nikita blocks needles
50/50
just run away
when he gets close he can do like 40 damage loool (especially when he has mine/c4 setup, he'll try to abuse those like crazy)
nades hardly do anything
protip nikita blocks needles
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
not its about 55/45. Snake should be taking like a minimum of about 60% when he falls off stage sure we cant prevent him from recovering at low percents but who cares he has to keep coming back and taking hits. If you know what ur doing snake should take alot of damage recovering. Also as said we can camp him.
Lastly DO NOT use the chain against snake ever. Its almost completel useless in this MU. We cant chain camp him, we cant use it at the ledge and using it to punish his landings is just asking to get a nade pulled and trade which is always bad. You can pull off alot of damage but the 9 times out of 10 ur just gonna get hit. Grenades beats chain camping. Theoretically we can stop all grenades with chain but this isn't theory brawl its a high risk situation for us wwith no risk to snake trying to stop it.
Lastly DO NOT use the chain against snake ever. Its almost completel useless in this MU. We cant chain camp him, we cant use it at the ledge and using it to punish his landings is just asking to get a nade pulled and trade which is always bad. You can pull off alot of damage but the 9 times out of 10 ur just gonna get hit. Grenades beats chain camping. Theoretically we can stop all grenades with chain but this isn't theory brawl its a high risk situation for us wwith no risk to snake trying to stop it.
riocosta123
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Messages
- 437
One of the biggest obstacles in this match is Snake's generous pivot grab range and our extremely bad tech rolls. Granted you shouldn't be getting grabbed a lot, but it only takes one grab to put on some major damage.
clowsui
Smash Legend
reyney ftilt is a true combo if done correctly, lol
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
It's true, lol. I took Tech Chase to 80 and he couldn't do anything about it while I did it.
Ultimately, this MU is about in the middle of disadvantage/slight disadvantage. If that makes sense. It doesn't seem like a really hard MU, but it's pretty easy to lose. Everyone pretty much hit on everything already, ftilt sucks for me sometimes.
Ultimately, this MU is about in the middle of disadvantage/slight disadvantage. If that makes sense. It doesn't seem like a really hard MU, but it's pretty easy to lose. Everyone pretty much hit on everything already, ftilt sucks for me sometimes.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
yea dude ftilt lock is a true combo meaning you never leave hitstun. Also Juu i feel like my post in the marth boards also reflects my opinion on this MU. Im not saying anyone has to but SL if you wanna somehow move that over here feel free.
Kisamealex3
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2008
- Messages
- 254
needle camping and heavy juggling ftw.
throw nades back at him.
throw nades back at him.
Tewx2
Smash Ace
Sheik can air combo snake without activating nades, since we have like no disjoints (who thought that could be a blessing) if you aim for the top of the head or the feet, you won't blow it up, unless you use something with a lasting hitbox like nair. To be honest, a snake that bows himself up, is really just giving us an opportunity to do 30+ damage to him
Sheik-Snake feels like a slight disadvantage for Sheik imo.
My main focus on each stock against Snake is waiting for an opening and grabbing him. Then either fthrow or bthrow him and then give chase. Snakes like to air dodge a lot and that means you should be getting some easy ftilt setups if you can bait the airdodge. He doesn't have anything he can do on the way down that isn't telegraphed so like everyone said you should be eating him alive when he's in the air. If he goes offstage there's tons of ways for you to **** him. When he C4's himself footstool him on his way up, when he techs the stage bair him back into the stage, and on SV if the moving platform is over there and he's going to have to C4 himself you can jump down and let him sticky you, airdodge the explosion and then vanish safely back to the moving platform.
A major thing in this MU is that you CANNOT force kills against Snake. That should be a given in any matchup but especially against Snake mistakes are extremely costly. Rack damage safely and focus on getting Snake offstage.
If you can win the camp game(which actually isn't that easy), it makes the matchup a lot easier. He'll either walk towards you, DACUS, or approach with a nade in his hands.....all situations that Sheik has the tools to properly deal with each approach. I know some Sheiks don't mind ftilting Snake until he blows up....but i'm of the opinion that we should avoid damage at all costs, especially against Snake so my preferred strategy is to ftilt twice to a grab and work from there.
One of the few matchups where Sheik probably doesn't win up close. Getting grabbed sucks, he has a 2 frame jab, ftilt, and utilt. If you spotdodge the first part of his ftilt you can jab before he can get the second hit in. Also ftilt clanks with all of his ground moves I believe and you can crouch under his first jab.
His dthrow is terrible for Sheik strictly because of the massive damage output he gets from it, dthrow> a read could lead to close to half of Sheiks stock and that's just scary.
Getting back on stage from the ledge is a pain but it helps if you remember to nair through his mortars. And learn grenade tricks like insta-throwing etc.
Not bad for Sheik at all just she loses due to Snakes weight and his KO power. Snake should live til 170-200 every stock barring a gimp and KO Sheik around 110-130 every stock. Reason it is a slight disadvantage. I like Japes against Snake as a CP....especially if you go to a game 3 against a Snake you feel is better than you. It helps to have some stage hazards that might play in your favor with a little luck. Japes also severely hampers Snake's KO ability because his ftilt will normally be used a s a punisher and therefore utilt won't kill Sheik so early. She also outmanuevers Snake on the stage and recovers better than he does here. Japes pretty much eliminates his C4 recovery as well. For neutrals I would strike BF & YI. Snake really does have the upperhand on all of the neutrals but at least SV has the moving platform to help with recovery and we outcamp Snake on FD. For his counterpick there isn't really much you can do, he could take you to Halberd with all the stage control and low ceiling, he could take you to Frigate, BF etc........it's pretty much pick your poison as far as stages go.
My main focus on each stock against Snake is waiting for an opening and grabbing him. Then either fthrow or bthrow him and then give chase. Snakes like to air dodge a lot and that means you should be getting some easy ftilt setups if you can bait the airdodge. He doesn't have anything he can do on the way down that isn't telegraphed so like everyone said you should be eating him alive when he's in the air. If he goes offstage there's tons of ways for you to **** him. When he C4's himself footstool him on his way up, when he techs the stage bair him back into the stage, and on SV if the moving platform is over there and he's going to have to C4 himself you can jump down and let him sticky you, airdodge the explosion and then vanish safely back to the moving platform.
A major thing in this MU is that you CANNOT force kills against Snake. That should be a given in any matchup but especially against Snake mistakes are extremely costly. Rack damage safely and focus on getting Snake offstage.
If you can win the camp game(which actually isn't that easy), it makes the matchup a lot easier. He'll either walk towards you, DACUS, or approach with a nade in his hands.....all situations that Sheik has the tools to properly deal with each approach. I know some Sheiks don't mind ftilting Snake until he blows up....but i'm of the opinion that we should avoid damage at all costs, especially against Snake so my preferred strategy is to ftilt twice to a grab and work from there.
One of the few matchups where Sheik probably doesn't win up close. Getting grabbed sucks, he has a 2 frame jab, ftilt, and utilt. If you spotdodge the first part of his ftilt you can jab before he can get the second hit in. Also ftilt clanks with all of his ground moves I believe and you can crouch under his first jab.
His dthrow is terrible for Sheik strictly because of the massive damage output he gets from it, dthrow> a read could lead to close to half of Sheiks stock and that's just scary.
Getting back on stage from the ledge is a pain but it helps if you remember to nair through his mortars. And learn grenade tricks like insta-throwing etc.
Not bad for Sheik at all just she loses due to Snakes weight and his KO power. Snake should live til 170-200 every stock barring a gimp and KO Sheik around 110-130 every stock. Reason it is a slight disadvantage. I like Japes against Snake as a CP....especially if you go to a game 3 against a Snake you feel is better than you. It helps to have some stage hazards that might play in your favor with a little luck. Japes also severely hampers Snake's KO ability because his ftilt will normally be used a s a punisher and therefore utilt won't kill Sheik so early. She also outmanuevers Snake on the stage and recovers better than he does here. Japes pretty much eliminates his C4 recovery as well. For neutrals I would strike BF & YI. Snake really does have the upperhand on all of the neutrals but at least SV has the moving platform to help with recovery and we outcamp Snake on FD. For his counterpick there isn't really much you can do, he could take you to Halberd with all the stage control and low ceiling, he could take you to Frigate, BF etc........it's pretty much pick your poison as far as stages go.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
great read man i agree with just about everything.
Just a few things. Snakes jab is frame 3 not 2. We have a 1 frame faster jab. Also i do think that sheik still wins up close but you have to be VERY close like right in his face close (any range outside of right up in his face range we get beat). Cause snakes jab isn't very good and i dont think it truly combos into ftilt not to mention at that close of a range he cant just ftilt us (i dont remeber its either that it wont hit us at all or it hits us a funny direction or maybe its just that we can SDI behind him i dont remeber). his grab like you said is a huge problem but our grab is also a huge problem and we have a better jab and our ftilt is actually useful at that range (right up in his face that is).
never thought of clanking ftilt with our ftilt before i suppose its a good idea just MAKE SURE YOU DON'T TRY AND FTILT AGAIN. Snakes ftilt is FRAME 4 which is amazing btw and ours is frame 5 so he will hit us one frame early on that. However i bet clanking his ftilt with our ftilt then following up with jab would be great.
Tewx2
Smash Ace
If you clash F-tilts you probably aren't within jab range.
Judo777
Smash Master
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depends on the spacing if ur closer i think you should DI behind but if ur farther DI away im not entirely sure though snakes are discussing it now. Razer said gnes avoids it all the time.
tutu I mean you probably could clank it at jab range lol. Obviously dont jab if your not in jab range.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
Recovery is lame in this MU. We can eat a stock's worth of damage if the Snake guesses what we do correctly. Also, all he really has to do is plant a C4/Dsmash and hog the ledge and he has a free punish and possibly a kill if we are at high enough damage.
TBH, we really have no excuse not living to 150 a stock against Snake. I know that seems radical but here me out, if we can play safe (depending on his style), his only real options will be to chuck decayed grenades at us. We can punish his Ftilt/Utilt with iDA/DACUS and we can continue to keep steady pressure with needles. I once lived to 240 against a very competent Snake. If he kills us beforehand, we were either punished for being unsafe or we got tech-chased very hard. Or even misc. explosion.
TBH, we really have no excuse not living to 150 a stock against Snake. I know that seems radical but here me out, if we can play safe (depending on his style), his only real options will be to chuck decayed grenades at us. We can punish his Ftilt/Utilt with iDA/DACUS and we can continue to keep steady pressure with needles. I once lived to 240 against a very competent Snake. If he kills us beforehand, we were either punished for being unsafe or we got tech-chased very hard. Or even misc. explosion.
Judo777
Smash Master
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a perfect spaced ftilt cant be punished by sheik, or probably anyone just to point out. But it gets misspaced all the time so ur right. Also planting a C4 and mine at the ledge isn't as free as you think we have alot of angles at our disposal we have ways of just barely missing it depending on spacing.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
I agree but more often than not we are blown up in our recovery. If its the Dsmash mine, our vanish wind can detonate it. C4 makes us quite unhappy but with we AC Vanish, we may be able to PS it.
Since he can't really hit you offstage I really don't see it being that hard to get the edge. Only time I really have Snake's grab the ledge is if they think my up b can be edge hogged. I can see the uses of grabbing the edge to force Sheik to vanish but they rarely ever do it. Long as you still have your second jump I don't think it would be very wise for Snake to leave the stage.
Tewx2
Smash Ace
Snake forces to the ledge, then traps us there. Via c4, mines, u smash, and his tilts.
You can also boost grab his f-tilt, if by some miracle were close enough we can jab afterward or ftilt.
A move that hasn't come up that's super dangerous for us is his dash attack, the range on it is huge. And even if we shield it he can cancel into an upsmash to run away.
You can also boost grab his f-tilt, if by some miracle were close enough we can jab afterward or ftilt.
A move that hasn't come up that's super dangerous for us is his dash attack, the range on it is huge. And even if we shield it he can cancel into an upsmash to run away.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
Dash Attack is so evil. Waaaaah!
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
Skip the numbers and small talk of slight disadvantage. Label it as neutral. Whoever knows the match-up best will get that advantage to put the match into his or her favor.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Nah i really think it is slight dis lol
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
This MU is the slightest of disadvantages. If we could label it in between even and slight disadvantage then that would be perfect.
After playing tourney sets with FL's best snake, MVD, and almost beating him twice, I conclude what we've all be saying; Snake's sheer weight and kill power gives him the nudge. Only the slightest of nudges though.
After playing tourney sets with FL's best snake, MVD, and almost beating him twice, I conclude what we've all be saying; Snake's sheer weight and kill power gives him the nudge. Only the slightest of nudges though.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Ugh, I do not like getting grabbed by snake (sheik's options out of dthrow are pretty bad lol), or being on the ledge near him. Both mean tons of damage
oh yeah and it's super obnoxious to have your uair or other aerials in general trade with snake bair unless you space it perfectly (I don't know if I was just off but I felt like my spacing was pretty spot on and I was still trading with his aerials).
I like it from a neutral standpoint though needle camping all dai
oh yeah and it's super obnoxious to have your uair or other aerials in general trade with snake bair unless you space it perfectly (I don't know if I was just off but I felt like my spacing was pretty spot on and I was still trading with his aerials).
I like it from a neutral standpoint though
needle camping all dai
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Yeah, slight disadvantage seems the most reasonable.
Needles. pretty much the only thing you need in life.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Is it just me, or does snake mortar seem to kill sheik abnormally early in this MU?
welcome to sheik, lol. thats true is most match ups
just stay out of the range of kill moves and pay attention in the match up.
just stay out of the range of kill moves and pay attention in the match up.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
But it's snake mortar, I get surprised that I die at like AT ALL from it lol (unless you're at a really high percent or near the ceiling).